SawStop Pro VS… (is it in the game with PM2000, SS industrial, and unisaw?)
Hi all. So I know this subject has been hashed out many times in many places but I wanted to bring it up fresh and with a specific point. Most extensive reviews comparing SawStops with PM2000’s and Unisaws are comparing the SS Industrial. A bit has been said on the SS Pro but not as direct a comparison.
And of course it is the SS pro that actually correlates most closely in price with the PM2000 and Unisaw – not the SS Industrial. So my question is: How does SS Professional compare with the PM2000 or Unisaw?
I’m don’t mean to eliminate the safety of the brake from this discussion, but I also don’t want it to be a main point. More the quality of the actual cutting (vibration, fence, flatness, trunnion beef, etc.) I also don’t want to eliminate the possible negetives of the brake (such as extra cost, seperate one for dado, mis-fire costs, and inabilty to cut wet wood (or with nails?) without thought to the key off switch).
The most disconcerting thing i’ve read on the SS Pro is that the trunnion assembly is two pieces connected with a rod as oppossed to one solid casting as is on the industrial and on the pm2000 and i think unisaw too…
Replies
I think CharlieL does
There isn't enough time in the day to 'justify' spending any of it on these forums, yet we both choose to...
There isn't enough money in woodworking to 'justify' doing it at all, yet so many do it and love doing it.
And part of the passion of the work is a passion for tools and a respect for tools, which entails learning about tools and sharing experiences. That way we can make the most informed descisions based on personal experiences and preferences.
Philosphy aside, I have to straight up disagree too. A shop that produces (not even neccesarily 'high production') benefits greatly from the time and presicion gained through the use of a good cabinet saw (given a certain type of work anyways).
The thought is appreciated.
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all three are good.
Yea you will get a lot of heated pasion on this subject and as you requested not puting the break at the heart of the matter, there are nice things about all of them. I've looked at all three very closely actually side by side at my woodcraft. I've got a decent saw but to be fair i've lusted after the sawstop for a while and the safety is one reason. The other its a dang fine saw. While I agree the industrial is heaver and looking at both it and the Pro side-by-side, you can see some differencs mainly in cast iron, but not where it matters. Remember the industrial saw is made for major all day shops but the Pro is a fine hunk of machinery and beefier (if thats a real word) that most of the others out there and you will not go wrong if you go that route. The PM66 is very impressive as well. Well made I like some of the features inside and its just plain old tough. The new delta is awsome, I like the design features like the handwheels in the front. Its an impressive hunk of metal. I know it will seem like a cop-out, but I don't think you could go wrong with any of them. The only think IMO that sets the SS out is the safety, but thats a heck of a feature. Like I said I'd like one, and I've been watching the CL's and auctions for a SS to pop up with a 5hp but they just don't come along. Not to throw in something from left field, have you considered an old piece of american iron i.e. a big tanowitz or delta. Just a thought. I've been considering that option as well. My current saw a grizzly 1023slx 3hp has been cutting fine for a lot of years so replacing it does not seem to be a priority right now. Good luck and post a review of what ever you get and post pic's. WE all love drooling over others new toys.
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Sorry my post Irked you so much... to clarify, I am indeed looking at saws and am trying to make an informed descision. I do agree with you that one's work is more important/interesting than the big machines, but keep in mind this is the power tools section of the forum. My intention was not to make any sales pitch nor to be 'judged' as a woodworker.
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Table saw
I took a close look at the indusrtial model a few years ago at the Atl show and it looked like a quality machine, although it comes at a high price. Their contractors saw is $1800+.
If the safety stop is not an issue I think you would be better off with the delta or powermatic, I would look for a used one in good condition,
Old iron v. new iron
While I'm an advocate for refurbing old iron, one drawback is that worthy older models from Delta or Powermatic won't have riving knives. To me, that would be a key feature of a "new" saw (even if used). There was a fellow making after-market riving knives for those saws, I believe, but I'm not sure if they are still available, and, if so, how well they work.
I like the concept of the SawStop as an alternative technology, but I don't approve of how the owner is trying to force it upon us through government intervention. For that reason alone, I'd lean toward a new Delta Unisaw.
"worthy older models from Delta or Powermatic won't have riving knives."
That's honestly why I have leaned towards a newer saw. The saw stop brake get a lot of credit for its safety but more than that it is the simple riving knife I find so desirable.
I guess another issue I am wondering about with the brake, seeing as I feel confident in my table saw use is if it could actually be a negative thing (most specifically false triggering due to some reason or another). I'm worried If i ever for some reason need to cut a lot of green wood that it'll be a pain.
SAW
The old unisaw had a riving knife standard, it was fixed in place and the guard was attached to it. The disadvantage of this design is it had to be removed for operations such as cutting dados, tenons etc, this is why they end up as door stops or left in the wrapper. The "European" style is a better design, where the knife moves with the blade.
Many if not most injuries on table saws are a result of loss of control causing kickback, not someone carelessly sticking their hand into the blade. A riving knife is very effective preventing kickback as it keeps the material "fenced". With that said I have no idea where the riving knife to my Unisaw is. With the possible exception of cutting plywood panels (especially thin ones) safe practices such as using push sticks and not putting ones self in a position to have hands pulled into the blade or to be struck by a workpiece are the best way to avoid injury.
My point is-what the hell is my point? Old vs New- I took a look at the new Unisaw and it dosen't loook like they have improved on the old riving knife design, with the possible execption of being able to remove and refit without tools. So if you buy a used one and need the knife you can always buy the part, I know where there is one still in the wrapper....
I also noticed Delta does not offer a right tilt saw anymore, which is a better design for mitering, particularly panels. Another reason to buy an old one.
I also agree with the negative comment regarding saw stop marketing. First he tried to scare everyone into buying it, by showing all these pictures of missing digits-disgusting! And now, as pointed out, he has gone to the government to try to mandate it-even more disgusting! I could be wrong but it is my understanding one reason the major manufacturers did not adopt it was that legally, that would be an admission that their past designs were defective and open them up to a feeding frenzy for the slip and fall lawyers. If that is true, then considering the inventor is a lawyer, there is a certian amount of Karma going on there.
Good luck with your new (or old new) saw.
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"I took a look at the new Unisaw and it dosen't loook like they have improved on the old riving knife design, with the possible execption of being able to remove and refit without tools"
I believe they actually did revamp it so that it can run as a 'true riving knife' meaning it will rise and fall with the blade for non-through cuts.
I am liking the sound of the delta more and more.
I certainly don't need to go new, and my ears are open for used. I am having a tough time finding quality used where i'm from. I also am young and figure that if i get a high quality saw now, it could last me a good long portion of my working life. I definately am not an advocate of all new and shiny trinkets, only when I think it makes practical sense. I love a good old stanley bench plane... using it even more.
I am correct regarding the fact the knife does not move with the blade. It is the same basic design as the old one with a couple of changes, apparently there are two positions, one high with the guard attached, and one low (you have to remove the guard) when not cutting through the material, not as convenient as a moving knife but a bit of an improvement over the old design which was fixed in one position and required a wrench to remove. I have not actually seen the new saw so I would question the practicality of this arraignment, trust but verify-eh? Here is a favorable review: https://www.finewoodworking.com/ToolGuide/ToolGuideProduct.aspx?id=32837
I also stand corrected regarding the price of the saw stop vs Unisaw, the sawstop Professional is in line with the unisaw and the Industrial model is a few hundred more than the high end unisaw. So If you are dead set on a new saw with all the latest safety gadgets I would take a close look at the Sawstop, in spite of my distaste with the inventor.
Again good luck with your choice
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Ya gotta love intelligent contributions to reasonable questions. Seriously Charlie, get more fiber in your diet. It will make you less cranky and might improve your outlook on life.
As to the original question, I chose the PM2000 over several options including the SawStop. No, Charlie, I didn't NEED it, but I definitely wanted to take my woodworking to the next level. After all these years of working around the shortcomings of contractor saws, I decided to buy a cabinet saw. I know Charlie will be completely offended to hear contractor saws have shortcomings, but oh well.
I made my purchase a few weeks ago during a great sale from PM. It took me about 3 minutes to understand why I needed to make the upgrade as the difference between saws was amazing. Honestly, the primary factor for the decision was price with length of warranty being a close second. At this level of saw, I believe all the players are fairly close in quality. And much like ABS on vehicles, I believe safety features will be standard in years to come.
I found the fit and finish of the PM2000 to be exceptional. Out of the crate very little adjustment was needed and I had the saw assembled and dead on accurate in about 4 hours. The saw is powerful, quiet, and smooth. The only complaints I have are:
1. Need to buy additional parts. The saw does not come with a dado insert, or a riving knife for thin kerf blades. Those are extra.
2. Fence has no micro-adjust. I loved my Vega fence, and the micro-adjust was high on the list. The PM fence is great, but would be better with additional adjustment capabilities.
3. Occassional odd noise. For some odd reason, when the saw is running and I say the name Charlie I hear this sound that's a cross between a laugh, a cry, a whine, and a violin. Tech support was baffled and we've considered calling a priest for an exorcism. If anybody has any ideas, please let me know.
Getting a little off subject here
but what the hell. I will have to agree regarding "contractor" saws, they are great for throwing in the back of a pickup truck, JD Clampett style and taking to a jobsite in the rain to rip a few boards or posibly using as a boat anchor in a pinch but if you are serious about woodworking and have a place to put it, you will eventually want a Unisaw or equivalent.
Regarding the additional parts for your PM, make your own inserts out of wood or plywood, you get a zero clearance insert for sawing or dadoing for the price of scrap. Regarding thin kerf blades, this was a marketing scam in my opinion, They are usefull in industry where that .030" savings in kerf width add up to big savings in material, furthermore, a quality thin kerf blade is insanely expensive to buy and maintain. I keep a couple of crappy Freud's around for heavy ripping as I have a 1-1/2 hp unisaw, which is their only advantage for a small shop, they will require less HP. So if your PM is 3HP or more-stay away from them, the finish will suck compared to a thicker blade/plate.
Great points
I have to say contractor saws are not evil, but they have limitations. I have made a lot of money off them, and built what I consider to be good quality furniture with them. But their design and construction make them more challenging. I will put my work on a contractor saw up against the work on a cabinet saw any day. The difference is the amount of effort it takes to produce the same result. The cabinet saw will win hands down when it comes to less effor and accuracyt. The only thing Charlie says that even remotely makes sense is about talent or skill. Good is good, regardless of the equipment. But it sure is nice to produce good quality with less effort.
You also make a great point about thin kerf blades. Thin kerf was developed to provide good results with less horsepower. Contractor saws and miter/chop saws perform better with them because they produce less drag. I have a high end finish blade that has very little use because my old saw didn't like it, it easily bogged down. That blade now has a new lease on life because of this saw. It has the power to maintain an even feed, which lessens vibration/wobble and produces an even cut.
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Back on subject
You'll have to just ignore Charlie, he has a severe case of table saw envy and displays extreme anxiety whenever he sees someone abandon the world of contractor saws.
I went back through my notes from when I was comparing saws. The SS Pro was more often compared to the new generation of hybrid saws instead of true cabinet saws. Generally speaking hybrids are redesigned contractor saws and, as such, will have many of the same limitations. Because of the additional heft provided by the safety mechanisms, the SS did seem to have a more solid feel and little vibration. At the time the mobile base for the SS was an additional $200, which is an absolute necessity for me due to the limited space in my shop. The PM2000 has an integrated caster system.
The SS Pro is a fine machine, but I felt I was getting more saw for my money with the PM. The design has been proven for many years, and it's a darn fine looking piece of equipment as well.
Let us know what you get, and be sure to include a picture of you standing beside it. We wouldn't want to disappoint our resident whiner.
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Are you sure? Not to doubt, I just don't see how a knife that doesn't move with the blade would allow you to do non-through cuts (which the new unisaw claims to let you) unless the non-through cuts were always done above the fixed knife position. What if I wanted to merely skim a 1/16" deep kerf out, and the 'fixed' lower position for the riving knife is greater than 1/16"? On the flip side, say the low profile is fixed at 1 inch high, what happens when you raise the blade above an inch... you'de be biting into the knife. Maybe i'm misinterpreting your point or the saw descriptions point.
Unisaw riving knife
The Unisaw owner's manual shows details about the location and operation of the riving knife:
http://servicenet.deltamachinery.com/Products/Detail?productNumber=%2036-L352#
The illustrations show that it is attached to the bracket assembly, which, in turn, is attached to the trunion. Thus, the riving knife raises, lowers, and tilts with the blade. The "high position" is used for normal through cuts, allowing the anti-kickback pawl and blade guard to be attached to the hooks on the riving knife. The "low position" is used for non-through cuts, where the pawl and blade guard wouldn't work.
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Isn't it about time for you to get mad again and start deleting all your posts?
That was my take on the review
"I have not actually seen the new saw so I would question the practicality of this arraignment, trust but verify-eh?"
However as I noted, I would recommend checking the machine out in person, I could be wrong- I hate it when that happens..
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