I didn’t get a chance to see a SawStop demo at the recent woodworking show here in Washington (Puyallup). I’m curious if anyone has seen this version of a test. I know they demo this with a hot dog, I DID see the hot dog they used. My question is this. Do they demo the saw stop mechanism in use WHILE CUTTING WOOD?? In other words, can the machine sense the hot dog (a finger) while cutting thru, say 8/4 oak? I think you can see where I’m going with this. One thing to sense a hot dog or finger by itself, but what about when the blade is working hard engaged in hardwood?
Comments?
Jeff
Replies
They put the hotdog on top of a board usually 3/4" plywood and jam it into the blade as fast as they can. Woodcraft in Seattle does some demos (that is where I saw it). You may want to contact them and see if they will be doing any demos anytime soon.
Charlie
Thanks. That's all I wanted to know. I suppose (thinking about it), in our litiginous society, if it didn't work with all forms of wood resulting in injuries, they would have been sued out of business by now!!!
Jeff
Jeff,
We've triggered the SawStop a few times, by running a blade into metal in jigs or fences, while the blade was fully engaged in a piece of wood, and in each case the metal was barely scratched because the brake engaged. From what I know of the triggering mechanism, and our own experience here in the shop, the braking action isn't affected in the least by being embedded in wood.
If you think about it, the brake would be of little value if it wouldn't work while actually cutting wood, that's when almost all of the accidents occur with a saw.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
The SawStop is by all accounts a wonderful machine, and I wish I had one.
But doesn't tripping the brake damage the motor and bearings?
Along with replacing the cartridge and the blade, each time you trip the brake has to get expensive.
If it saves your fingers, it is cheap... but the cost of false trips isn't anything to ignore, at least in my view.
-Tom
Nine cents worth of scrap plywood can be made into a push-shoe that will prevent cutting off anything if it's judiciously used.
Edited 5/22/2007 2:12 pm by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
My son, I take it you do not include yourself as an average, stupid machine operator so I urge you to save yourself the nine cents by advising: "do not place any part of your anatomy on the saw blade or in the line of cut whilst operating the machine".Philip Marcou
No, I don't include myself in that group. It occurred to me early on that bare hands and tablesaws don't mix well, even with some cool new device that chews up your sawblades for you.
Mr. Gass and Mr. Barnum are certainly kindred spirits. People will pay extra money for a device, when tripped, will at minimum cause the need for a blade repair and at worse ruin the blade, and all for the privilege of not using a simple push-shoe.
Amazing.
Here's what I've seen at more than one commercial shop (which I'm sure is duplicated in more than a few home shops) :
Tablesaw with blade guard removed.
Blade left at maximum height always. It's way up there. Like a seventeen year old on prom night.
Inadequate dust collection. Dust everywhere - in front of the machine especially where it causes slips.
Saw poorly tuned, fence out of line, dull blade, cheap combo blade on a saw used mostly for ripping, blade caked with pitch, you name it. These various factors cause the need to apply an inordinate amount of feed pressure which makes the accident happen that much faster. Ditto for underpowered saws. 5HP is a bare minimum in my book. A bare minimum.
Operators ripping narrow stock. Narrow workpieces should always be ripped off of wider stock. If you need a one inch wide workpiece, you never start with a two inch wide board. Rip it off a wider board. When stock gets too narrow it goes in the scrap pile. That's what your waste factor is for. Sharp craftspeople know how to keep this waste to a bare minimum while staying safe.
And of course no push stick or shoe in sight.
And to make this a really explosive admixture add a bunch of macho cretins happily ripping wood with bare hands, usually missing a finger or two. And almost proud of their past injuries.
Edited 5/18/2007 3:34 pm ET by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
Your observations about comercial shops is all too true. I will say though that most of the better shops keep they machines in allignment and the blades sharp. Blade heigth dosen't have the effect that you must think. Unless you are ripping narrow stock and your fingers will be too close to the blade, a higher blade cuts more effeciently and there is less tendancy for the board to climb up the front side of the blade. Especially if the feed rates are high. Unfortunately there is no excuse for not having overhead blade gaurds and splitters. I suspect that the shop that would invest in the Saw Stop likely already practices good machine safety.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Of the *claimed* 99 tripped devices and saved digits, I'd like to know how many of the operators were using a push stick, shoe, or another feeding device. My bet is none. So I have a slight quibble with your statement about these units being purchased by shops that are "already safety conscious."
I would also be willing to bet that every single SawStop 'save' would never have happened on a saw with the blade guard intact and the operator using a push-shoe.
I call it the Nine Cent Save.
Edited 5/18/2007 10:49 am ET by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
You are quite free to not buy the saw ya know.I still cannot understand why folks dis a safety feature.Cheers,Peter
That's why they make chocolate and vanilla, Peter.
?
I would also be willing to bet that every single SawStop 'save' would never have happened on a saw with the blade guard intact and the operator using a push-shoe.
You're right to a point. Some admittedly did dumb things, but do you really think that all of them are that careless? Wouldn't it be possible that some of them were very careful like you always are?
Actually I did see a post on one of the forums from a woodworker who had an accident doing a dado in some baltic birch plywood. The pictures he posted told the story. He was doing everything correctly and was using a Grrr-ripper exactly the way it is shown in videos and demonstrations that I have seen. The blade of the saw hit an large, hard knot in the core material and the Grrr-ripper tipped forward sending his thumb into the blade. All he got was a little knick that didn't even require a band-aid. Had he not had the SawStop, he would have lost the end of his thumb.
Now, perhaps you'll find fault with his technique or what he was doing, but he was doing the work "by the book." His technique was correct and he was using the right tools properly.
Edited 5/18/2007 11:03 am ET by basset-hound
I am guessing, assuming somebody posts otherwise, that every single one of the SawStop saves was of an operator not using a pushing device which is the ultimate act of carelessness.
A board gripper is a hold down device, not a feeding device. A motorized stock feeder performs both functions and had one been used the example you've given would not have happened.
For dado cutters, you must use an overarm blade guard, a push shoe, and a hold down device (gripper, feather boards, etc.) Stock feeders would be better. A router even better than that.
Most stock blade guards get removed the first time the dado cutter is mounted.
Edited 5/22/2007 2:14 pm by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
Am I to assume that there are no accidents in Europe involving the making of dados?Is the only safe woodworking environment a multi $$ commercial production shop?People DO have accidents. They get momentarily distracted, or slip, lose a bit of balance. A friend of mine recently had a very minor stroke while cutting the lawn. Fortunately nothing serious happened. But it made him slip and fall. I am of an age (60) when one reflects on that. Bottom line..I am saving up for one of these saws. And will continue with safe working habits after I get it.Cheers,Peter
"Am I to assume that there are no accidents in Europe involving the making of dados?"
Relatively few simply because you won't find them in use in commercial shops unless mounted on radialk arm saws. Have a serious accident on a saw here in a commercial shop and where no/inadequate guarding in place (a typical configuration for an American dado saw user) and you're likely to find yourself fined heavily (as the business owner), possibly even facing a prison sentence for criminal negligence, or as a self-employed person or amateur you could find the insurers deducting a percentage of the payout due to negligence/deliberate hazardous working
Yes, people have accidents, but tell me which is the better approach - primary safety through systematic guarding or using expensive technology to cancel out poor initial design/operation?
Scrit
Who sells dado sets in the UK? Axminster?
Edited 5/18/2007 11:56 am ET by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
Machine Mart, (see http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/categories/search/saw-blades-sanding-belts-discs-sheets) although any Freud dealer can supply a 6in or an 8in stacked set. The problem in the UK at least is that there is a BS (British Standards) specification which limits the length of the arbor on a table saw to 5/8in or 16mm - a pretty useless length if you want to cut full thickness housings for 19mm plywood
Sorry about the misunderstanding - our posts crossed (Scrit's late to the fray, yet again!)
Scrit
Edited 5/18/2007 12:00 pm by Scrit
Edited 5/18/2007 12:01 pm by Scrit
Edited 5/18/2007 12:08 pm by Scrit
The standard you described pretty much rules out effective and convenient use of a dado set. There is a term that legislators use (it escapes me at the moment) for outlawing one item by imposing some sort of limitation on another item.
Needless to say, I couldn't mount a full stacker on a saw made to comply with British Standards.
Edited 5/18/2007 12:07 pm ET by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
There are other EU countries where the figure is 20mm or 25mm I believe, but the standards for guarding are the sama across the EU. This means in effect that most European machinery manufacturers stick to a short arbor, at least for EU market sales, on the grounds that if you sell a saw which can take the wider cutter sets, but then don't also offer the extra safety gear which is required for the safe use of these sets, then you could find yourself in the dock if anyone sued you after an amputation. Most manufacturers and insurers don't think this is worthwhile, I feel
Scrit
I was not specifically referring to stacked dado blades.And I keep shaking my head in disbelief at the hostility in this thread directed at a safety device. Why has it been presented as an either/or scenario? I have looked at as an addition to safety.Cheers,Peter
Peter
Perhaps the problem in the minds of people like myself is that the SawStop is a sort of air bag solution. 90% of the effectiveness of the SawStop can be achieved at less than 10% of the cost of the technology. I'd say a better design of rip fence with a slide-back plate for ripping, a crescent-shaped riving knife, an overhead crown guard and a 9 cent push stick will achieve 90% of the added safety of a SawStop at a less than 10% of the price. Look at any Euro saw and that's the sort of thing you'll see. So whilst I applaud the concept I think that the execution is flawed and over-cosrtly for many people.
Scrit
Edited 5/18/2007 12:20 pm by Scrit
Cost is relative. I agree with "better design of rip fence with a slide-back plate for ripping, a crescent-shaped riving knife, an overhead crown guard and a 9 cent push stick" I look at it as ADDED safety against my imperfections and failings. BTW, I would not buy a car without air bags and antiskid technology. And I have no intention of placing myself in a situation where I would need these devices, but as they say, s*it happens.So, I guess we have to agree to disagree on this issue.Cheers,Peter
And I keep shaking my head in disbelief at the hostility in this thread directed at a safety device. Why has it been presented as an either/or scenario? I have looked at as an addition to safety.
I'm with you. Just a little added insurance. Most of the 'anger' towards Sawstop stems from the attempt to mandate the safety device, and the relative cost of the machine. Some people just can not get past either.
Technology has existed to limit the number of accidents for years (guards, splitters, power feeders and push sticks) yet there are still severe accidents. If we are not going to change the way we use the saw, the perhaps the saw should change to meet the way we use it.
"Technology has existed to limit the number of accidents for years (guards, splitters, power feeders and push sticks) yet there are still severe accidents. If we are not going to change the way we use the saw, the perhaps the saw should change to meet the way we use it"
You say that, but it isn't really true. Splitters are much less effective than riving knives, rip fences running past the front of the saw teeth are known to be a majot contributor to kick-back injuries and the removal of guards because manufacturers will not supply adequate overhead guarding are all major contributing factors in accidents.
Scrit
And I keep shaking my head in disbelief at the hostility in this thread directed at a safety device. Why has it been presented as an either/or scenario? I have looked at as an addition to safety.
I'm with you. Just a little added insurance. Most of the 'anger' towards Sawstop stems from the attempt to mandate the safety device, and the relative cost of the machine. Some people just can not get past either.
Technology has existed to limit the number of accidents for years (guards, splitters, power feeders and push sticks) yet there are still severe accidents. If we are not going to change the way we use the saw, the perhaps the saw should change to meet the way we use it.
It is always interesting to see the agruments against the SawStop. Many who write comments against the need for this technology don't want our country to require its use, but they use the mandated regulations in Europe, like the dado example here, as a reason it's not necessary here. Others say we should all be usibng a "slider." Do these same people use a European style slider, with a riving knife that can't easily be removed from the saw and an overhead guard that a hand can't slip under? Well, perhaps some do, but that's not regulated as being required here in this country is it? I'm sure that some of those same people would complain if it was. Others seem to think that there is some magic in their nine cent push stick. Somehow, due to that magic, their hand will never slip into the blade. They try to make all those who have had an accident out to be total baffoons, not worthy of their higher level of inteligence.
Well folks, accidents do happen on European sliders, they happen with push sticks and they happen to some of the most experienced woodworkers who practice safety all the time.
No, I have never had an accident with a table saw or any other power tool, nor do I plan to. I have some great push sticks that I use and my blade guard is always on my table saw, especially since the one on my SawStop is so well designed. Then, you ask, why did I buy one? My reply is a loud and clear, "Why not?" Even without the brake it's a very fine, well made saw. Yes it's not a "slider," but at my age I didn't want to learn how to use one of those safely. All my experience is on a table saw. I thought I'd be a lot safer with using a SawStop correctly and safely than changing to a different kind of saw. Fortunately in this country I, like all of you, can still make my own decision, but I'm sure that the day will come when we can't because of accidents that do happen.
Edited 5/18/2007 4:53 pm ET by basset-hound
I like that font.
I thought it was appropriate.
"It is always interesting to see the agruments against the SawStop. Many who write comments against the need for this technology don't want our country to require its use, but they use the mandated regulations in Europe, like the dado example here, as a reason it's not necessary here."
That's a little unfair and seems to be deliberately thwisting the argument. The SawStop brake idea is fine, so far as it goes, but in other respects the saw shows some very, very poor design features which makes it seem a bit odd to my eyes
"Others seem to think that there is some magic in their nine cent push stick. Somehow, due to that magic, their hand will never slip into the blade. They try to make all those who have had an accident out to be total baffoons, not worthy of their higher level of inteligence."
I sense that you want some sort of protection from buffoonish working practices by using technology. Use of safe working practices is fundamental to user safety and doesn't require a multi-million dollar technical investment. Perhaps what I'm really sensing is good old fashioned anti-European, not invented here xenophobia. Or then again, maybe not.
"Well folks, accidents do happen on European sliders, they happen with push sticks"
Only a lot less frequently, but then you omitted to say that......
"Fortunately in this country I, like all of you, can still make my own decision, but I'm sure that the day will come when we can't because of accidents that do happen."
I was right. Xenophobia..... ;-) Why not try to understand that your investment, which you are so hell bent on defending, is also far from perfect and has flaws. I've yet to come across a perfect saw - in all probability there is non - but the SawStop still falls well short in a number of areas. One of my saws is an Altendorf, good, but it, too has design flaws, only less than many other machines.
Are you another person who confuses responsible legislation with nanny state intervention? I do not see a problem with having some sort of framework which fosters a duty of care towards employees and customers through designed-in safety. Many of the safety features found on Euro saws were in fact introduced well before they were mandated, so the laws were merely levelling the playing field, so to speak.
Scrit
Edited 5/18/2007 5:30 pm by Scrit
Edited 5/18/2007 5:33 pm by Scrit
The SawStop brake idea is fine, so far as it goes, but in other respects the saw shows some very, very poor design features which makes it seem a bit odd to my eyes
Scrit,
Could you elaborate on what you consider "very, very poor design features?" Every review and comment I have read by anyone who has used the saw find it an excellent, rock solid saw without even taking the brake into consideration. I agree with them.
GeorgeYou don't stop laughing because you grow old. You grow old because you stop laughing. - Michael Pritchard<!----><!----><!---->
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I'd quibble with ya' on one point. "The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in ourselves if we are underlings. "Design flaws" is a shady description of the equation between the physics and economics of tool fabrication. The design usually achieves the order of the customer, who is the president of the company. It's an economic failure that the tool companies in the US, sustained by the domestic market, found so little incentive to innovate in any area. By and large design innovation in most fronts has retained an entirely foreign flavor from Asia, Japan principally, and Europe. On the west coast of the US the the japanese and european tool manufacturers have always been associated with innovation over the tools and practices of the local trades. A great many ideas long employed elsewhere are improvements. But with today's economics, it's far cheaper to adopt one device, SS, than an array of tools and different practices. In terms of man hours, shop practices are much more expensive to change than to add a significant mechanism to the saw.
"Most of the 'anger' towards Sawstop stems from the attempt to mandate the safety device...." I haven't gone back and re-read this entire thread, but my recollection is that most of the "anger" has a single source. Trying to reason with that source is an exercise in futility, if past history is any indication.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Actually, there are probably a couple sources. Futility, yes, I've said my piece. Now I'm through. It is difficult to convince someone who doesn't want to be convinced.
Edited 5/18/2007 11:39 pm ET by tinkerer2
"Yes, people have accidents, but tell me, which is the better approach - primary safety through systematic guarding or using expensive technology to cancel out poor initial design/operation."
With all due respect, Scrit, I think you are missing the concept for which the Sawstop was designed and is being sold/purchased. I might have missed some of the discussions regarding the Sawstop since I have been at knots, but I don't ever remember someone advocating laxness of safety standards or using poor "initial design/operation."
The people who are buying the Sawstop are doing so to add that bit of safety to cancel out any "poor initial design/operation" or even unknown technique which endangers them. If what I have read is true, it does add a measure of safety to the shop.
I am a newbie, so I am sure I operate at a more dangerous level than you because I don't know any better. I use every safety technique that I know and I am sure you do too but we both might be safer if more safety devices or or improved techniques were incorporated in our shops.
I don't use a Sawstop, nor have I even seen one in real life. At age 74, I will probably never get one. I purchased a PM66 several years ago, which I thought was a pretty good one at the time. It doesn't even have a riving knife. To be at my safest, I would stay out of the shop but I have yearned to do woodworking since childhood and am willing to endure that danger to fulfill my desire.
I don't think I'm missing the point at all. When I was working in California a few years back I was appalled at the poor design and quality of many of the saws in use in both amateur and professional shops. Almost everyone I met operated their saws sans crown guard, the splitters were a poor substitute for proper riving knives, push sticks were more noted for their absence, and even some of the pros didn't seem to understand the need for run-off tables whilst the all the rip fences, even the much feted Biesmeyer, seemed to have some major design flaws in them. I looked at (for that read tried out) an early SawStop back then. The build quality certainly seemed a step up from the Unisaw, but I didn't think it any nbetter than a PM66. The Saw Stop's riving knife and guard were indeed a big improvement over almost everything else I saw in production, but still the Bies fence had (has) two glaring flaws: if you are ripping thin pieces of material the Bies forces you to remove the crown guard in order to get the blade near enough to the fence and the fence itself could do with a sliding face plate which could be slid back to end at the front teeth of the sawblade when ripping (the so-called "Euro rip fence") which is a major reducer of kickback-from-pinching. If the Sawstop manufacturers had in addition throught to put a simple clip on top of the crown guard (or nearby) to hold a "9 cent push stick" that, too would have been a simple safety feature. Put a feature on and if it's good enough at least some people will use it. But for some reason they (Saw Stop) didn't want to include obvious, basic and relatively cheap safety precautions, which I find a real pity. Another useful addition might have been a braked motor - a fair percentage of table saw injuries used to be caused here in the EU by peoples' hands touching still-spinning saw blades or cutters after power off . The introduction of run-down brakes here has all but eradicated that type of injurt.
So my feeling about the SawStop is that in some ways it is a near miss. Perhaps the people I shgould really be heaping scorn on are the myriad of other saw makers who don't even know what a riving knife is, let alone a decent guard or rip fence? at least with the appearance of the SawStop PowerMatic seem to have woken up (belatedly) to some of the possibilities.
Scrit
Edited 5/19/2007 4:39 pm by Scrit
but still the Bies fence had (has) two glaring flaws: if you are ripping thin pieces of material the Bies forces you to remove the crown guard in order to get the blade near enough to the fence and the fence itself could do with a sliding face plate which could be slid back to end at the front teeth of the sawblade when ripping (the so-called "Euro rip fence") which is a major reducer of kickback-from-pinching.
Scrit,
I agree with you that these are flaws. But they are flaws in the standard Beismeyer fence SawStop ships (as an option) with their saw. I wouldn't really call them glaring flaws. They are easily overcome with homemade fence add-ons.
If the Sawstop manufacturers had in addition throught to put a simple clip on top of the crown guard (or nearby) to hold a "9 cent push stick" that, too would have been a simple safety feature.
A clip may have been nice but not on the crown guard. I steer clear of that when the saw is running. My push stick is generally on the fence or just to the right of it.
Another useful addition might have been a braked motor - a fair percentage of table saw injuries used to be caused here in the EU by peoples' hands touching still-spinning saw blades or cutters after power off .
A braked motor would not do much to enhance the safety of the SawStop. The SawStop braking system is still active and will do its whiz-bang thing after the power is shut off and until the blade has come to a complete stop.
I have to admit I don't have a lot experience with cabinet saws. I have only owned my SawStop for about 4 months. Before that I used whatever hobby shops on military bases offered. I have had a ShopSmith for about 25 years. But the table saw function on that was scary. I avoided it like the plague.
Good Luck to You, George
You don't stop laughing because you grow old. You grow old because you stop laughing. - Michael Pritchard<!----><!----><!---->
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"A clip may have been nice but not on the crown guard. I steer clear of that when the saw is running. My push stick is generally on the fence or just to the right of it."
Believe it or not, George, that's where Altendorf and a few other panel saw manufacturers place it and I can testify to the fact that having it there in your peripheral vision on every cut does encourage people to use it
Regards
Scrit
Edited 5/19/2007 6:52 pm by Scrit
A clip may have been nice but not on the crown guard. I steer clear of that when the saw is running. My push stick is generally on the fence or just to the right of it."
Believe it or not, George, that's where Altendorf and a few other panel saw manufacturers place it and I can testify to the fact that having it there in your peripheral vision on every cut does encourage people to use it
Oh I believe and I believe it may encourage some people to use it. It is just that I have conditioned myself to consider the guard part of the "forbidden zone" and hands are never, ever to go into that zone while the saw is running. If I can't keep my hands out using a push stick, jig, sled, etc. then I will make the cut on the bandsaw or by hand.
Have a good one, GeorgeYou don't stop laughing because you grow old. You grow old because you stop laughing. - Michael Pritchard<!----><!----><!---->
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I thought I was through writing but here I am again. Okay, so I see your point better. You are thinking of the Sawstop per se and I am thinking more of the noted mechanism. Since I have never seen the SS in person I can't comment much about the workmanship or general design other than, it seems, most posters believe it better made than the average American made saw. It also seems that most of the posters here believe the European woodworking tools are better designed/built that their American counterparts.
I assume the first circular saw had no safety device whatsoever. Then an accident happened and a safety device was developed to avoid a repeat. Safety devices are still being developed. Some are considered a nuisance or are too expensive to purchase so aren't used. The Sawstop stop mechanism is one of these devices. Presently, no machine has all of them. My point is that no safety device should be condemned because it is to expensive. One cannot be too safe. We all take our chances or we would stay in bed all day. We individually have to decide how much risk we will endure. I tend to go on the safe side but, at my age, I doubt I will ever shell out the dough for Sawstop.
Edited 5/19/2007 8:56 pm ET by tinkerer2
"Dado cutters are illegal in Western Europe (and yet they get along somehow). They cannot be used in a commercial setting at all, and I don't believe they can even be sold to hobbyists."
Whoa there! As a trade woodworker in the UK I can tell you that they are not illegal to buy or use - for people like me they are, however, only useable under certain circumstances. As a commercial woodworker the requirememnt is that we always try to utilise the safest method of doing any job - for rebates that means a spindle moulder (shaper) with a power feeder or at least a Shaw (spring-pressure) guard set, whilst for through housings (dados) that means a router and jig or a radial arm saw with a dado head. Table saws would be OK if you coul guard the dado adequately - with dado heads it is all but impossible on many saws, so whilst the dado sets themselves aren't illegal, their unguarded use is. Whilst amateurs can buy them, I believe that insurers are getting ever less willing to pay out on claims made by amateur amputees on the grounds that there are many other safer alternatives (heck, even a Domino or a biscuit jointer are safer....)
"For dado cutters, you must use an overarm blade guard, a push shoe, and a hold down device (gripper, feather boards, etc.) Stock feeders would be better. A router even better than that."
Or perhaps a radial arm saw?
Scrit
How about a router,,,,
When I cut trenches (dados) I use either a radial arm saw with a 2-part dado head (much like the anti-kickback tooling we now mandate for spindle moulders/shapers over here) or a plunge router, guide bush and jig.
I have to say I don't cut many, though - the fastest way I know to build carcasses involves biscuiting or dowelling and generates much less dust......
Scrit
Edited 5/18/2007 12:07 pm by Scrit
I'm not seeing them on their website but I must be missing them.
You Brits raised dowelling to a fine art. But I love it. I've never read one woodworking manual by a British writer that did not go into dowelling more than thoroughly.
Edited 5/18/2007 12:03 pm ET by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
I believe that every single one of the SawStop saves was of an operator not using a pushing device which is the ultimate act of carelessness.
I suppose you can believe whatever you want... But why are you trying to pass your beliefs off as a fact? You have no proof, just a somewhat biased guess.
When I say "I believe" (which you quoted yourself) I'm not passing anything off as fact.
That said, I still believe that every single incidence of a trip and save was a woodworker feeding wood with bare hands. Why do I believe this? Because if the hand one uses to feed the wood is on a push shoe it can't touch the blade. Blade no touchie hand, no trippie SawStop.
I promise as soon as the SawStop folks can make a supportable claim that a woodworker who was using a push-shoe was somehow saved by the mechanism then they will. Maybe they have. Check out their website and let us know.
I'm sure they know, as well as you and I know, that with the standard guard intact and pushing with a shoe you can't get cut.
It looks like an alright saw. I've owned better. If you like it, buy one.
Edited 5/18/2007 2:40 pm ET by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
You can find dado blades over here if you look hard enough,there not on general sale in tool shops, But on 99% of the saws sold they cant be used because the arbors are not long enough to to take the dados.also saws are fitted with riving knives which are not made so easy to remove. But as you say even with the Saw Stop why take a chance use your push sticksand anything else that makes it safe.
My tuppence worth##
regds boysie39I'm never always right but i'm always never wrong. Boysie
Excellent points from both posters across the pond,,,
I concur that accidents can happen with push sticks. My hand slipped off of one (about 12-16 inches) and luckily i had my blade guard on. It was the factory one no less. You bet I'm going to get one of these once I have the space and money. It makes good common sense to me, like homeowners insurance.
"Actually I did see a post on one of the forums from a woodworker who had an accident doing a dado in some baltic birch plywood. The pictures he posted told the story. He was doing everything correctly and was using a Grrr-ripper exactly the way it is shown in videos and demonstrations that I have seen. The blade of the saw hit an large, hard knot in the core material and the Grrr-ripper tipped forward sending his thumb into the blade. All he got was a little knick that didn't even require a band-aid. Had he not had the SawStop, he would have lost the end of his thumb.
"Now, perhaps you'll find fault with his technique or what he was doing, but he was doing the work "by the book." His technique was correct and he was using the right tools properly."
Of course had he been using a 9 cent push stick which kept his had 400 to 500mm (12 to 16in) away from the blade he'd not have had the nick, either...... Grrrr-rippers are also another so-called safety device which aren't worth a dime because they still allow your hand to get far too close to the blade for safety
Scrit
Edited 5/18/2007 11:55 am by Scrit
By a show of hands, who in this thread actually owns a SawStop saw? Be honest.
I own a SawStop.
GeorgeYou don't stop laughing because you grow old. You grow old because you stop laughing. - Michael Pritchard<!----><!----><!---->
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We have one in our shop.
John W.
Related question: How many people posting in this thread about the vices and virtues of the SawStop have actually run any wood through a SawStop?
GeorgeYou don't stop laughing because you grow old. You grow old because you stop laughing. - Michael Pritchard<!----><!----><!---->
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"Related question: How many people posting in this thread about the vices and virtues of the SawStop have actually run any wood through a SawStop?"
I have. I've also used the PM66, Unisaw and many European saws as well (my shop currently contains an Altendorf slider, a European cabinet saw and a British dimension saw) both industrial and some hobby grade
Scrit
Edited 5/19/2007 6:50 pm by Scrit
The last saw I had was a Felder
An accident of any kind is typically the result of a series of events. The operator was tired; he was in a hurry, the blade was dull, the guard was broken; he was upset, the push stick wasn't to hand and so on and so forth. There is therefore a danger in relying too much on technology.For example, The Cirrus light aircraft was a departure in design and had a parachute that would enable the plane to land safely once "pulled". You might think, that this single feature would prevent nearly all of the accidents that typically happen in light aircraft flown by a single pilot. In fact the planes operating record is surprisingly poor with many accidents happening where the parachute would have been of no help.Here's a quote from AOPA that pretty much sums it up:"The toughest area to deal with involves judgment and decision making. A number of Cirrus pilots broke every common-sense and legal rule in the book by continuing VFR into IMC, and often in mountainous terrain. The risk on several of these flights is far enough up the scale that you can't help but wonder if the Cirrus' excellent avionics, comfort, and parachute system seduced the pilots into a fatal rationalization."If your Saw Stop impairs your judgment (and I'm not arguing that it does), then it may be unintended consequences, like parachutes on planes.HastingsPS This is not an argument for or against the Saw Stop; merely the observation that safety starts in the cranium!
Good post.
Blade guards are also quite needless if you are smart enough to use a power feeder or a push stick to keep your hands away from the blade. Whoever invented the first blade guard was just lowering the collective intellectual bar to the lowest common denominator.
Hence the 8 out of 10 handle, I suppose......
If I could just figure a way to use the all powerful push stick on a chain saw I'd be all set!
I bought one. Cheers to Mr. Gass for screwing me out of $4000. I'll bet he is smoking a cigar and drinking a martini laughing all the way to the bank at us fools for giving him our money.
(a) He didn't screw you out of anything. You're an adult (I assume) and should be fully capable of making a reasoned decision
(b) I'm virtually certain he hasn't made much, if any, profit to date. God only knows (well, and maybe a few CEOs) how much it cost for him to single-handedly take this embryonic idea from a glimmer in his eye to a full-fledged production and marketing situation.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
(b) I'm virtually certain he hasn't made much, if any, profit to date. You're certain, really?
Edited 5/22/2007 2:17 pm by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
:-)
I'm sure I don't need to explain the phrase "virtually certain" to you.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I don't have any doubt that you have your ear to the ground.
Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.
Edited 5/23/2007 6:54 am by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact."
This explains a lot of things. :-)
GREG <!---->••••••• Exo 35:30-35<!---->
Edited 5/23/2007 8:19 am by Cincinnati
Good, I hoped it would.Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.
This has gone on long enough that I feel like I can put in my 2 cents worth & then try a mild hijack of the thread....:-)1. As an engineer, I have to hand it to Mr. Gass (or whatever his name is) for developing an innovative safety device to improve the overall safety in a rather dangerous activity.2. That said, his "lawyer like" attempt to get the government to mandate such safety devices, IMO, puts him in the same class of people as the DC judge (boy, is that a joke) that is bankrupting an immigrant family by suing the dry cleaners they run for $54 mill.I chose to wear seat belts long before they were mandatory, but I have a total disdain for mother-like government policies enacted to protect us from ourselves. I could go on about this, but that's enough. Bottomline, if I had the $$ to purchase a SawStop, I would not, simply because I dislike Mr. Gass' politics. He can make money off of other people. I'll try to maintain my ability to count to ten thru other means.Now, to the slight hijack. Actually, a lot of you have already hit on this subject by mentioning things the SawStop doesn't have -- & probably SHOULD, if they're really interested in providing a safe to use piece of equipment. I'm interested in info on the Brett overarm style blade guard. That's an innovation that SawStop could have incorporated and chose not to. According to Woodworker's supply catalog that I have, it's the only guard that meets both ANSI & OSHA standards. Ian Kirby recommended it in his tablesaw book. Any experiences/opinions?http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPRES.exe?PARTNUM=105-836&LARGEVIEW=ONEdited 6/14/2007 6:25 am ET by bd
Edited 6/14/2007 6:26 am ET by bd
"...Brett overarm style blade guard. That's an innovation that SawStop could have incorporated and chose not to." That definitely would have priced the SS out of the market. And......people have different likes/dislikes about non-standard blade guards. Narrows down the customer base even further.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
>And......people have different likes/dislikes about non-standard blade guards. Ah, so true!........Brett, Biesemeyer, PSI, Euro-style, etc. -- there are a lot of blade guard designs that are better than provided with the SawStop, but SawStop chose not to incorporate any of them. Nor, did they utilize the short Euro-style rip fence which many claim is safer. It just all goes to point out the hypocrisy in the inventor's attempt to force all manufacturers to provide some sort of instantaneous blade brake option.That's just my opinon & it's worth exactly what you paid for it...... What I'm really interested in is feedback from any that have used the Brett Guard. I think I can afford a Brett Guard -- at the cost of doing without some other tools that I think I desparately need. I would never be able to come up with the $$ to buy a SawStop.
BD, my guess is that if SawStop did both of those things (the blade guard and the adjustable fence) you'd find fault because they didn't make the throat insert high-visibility orange or something. You're PO'd at him for trying to get a mandate, and that drives everything else -- seen plenty of these posts over the last couple of years.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG,You're absolutely right.....in one respect. No matter what they did, I wouldn't be interested in one. But that has nothing to do w/ the design. I, like many people that have expressed their views on this & other forums, really objected to Mr. Gass's attempts to get his invention mandated by the government. That is over & done, and has soured me on his endeavors, but not the quality of the product based on the reviews & demos I've seen. I was just using the guard & fence as an example to point out the irony in the situation in his petition to the CPSC & whatever other agencies he approached for a ruling mandating the use of something like his product. Given my income, I could never justify spending twice as much on a saw just to get some additional safety benefits, esp. since I have two perfectly good saws setting in my shop. But that's my choice to make. I'm not tryiing to impose that on you or anyone else. I just stated an opinion.However, I can afford to spend a few hundred dollars more to enhance the safety of the saws that I already have. That's why I asked for input on the Brett Guard. I have not seen any reviews on it in the last 10 yrs or so.
BD,
SawStop already had a safety system that gives more protection than the Brett Guard so I don't see why they would have included it on the saw. And there is nothing about the construction of the SawStop that would prevent the Brett Guard from being added to the saw if you wanted it.
Having done a fair amount of OSHA related work, I am always suspicious of claims that something meets OSHA standards, since the OSHA rules usually allow a wide latitude in choosing equipment and procedures as long as it meets some general requirements for providing protection. I am also suspicious of the claim since the Brett Guard isn't being used in thousands of commercial shops in the US that would be covered by OSHA rules, some other guarding must obviously also be acceptable.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
John, the SawStop protection kicks in when flesh touches blade. The idea behind top-notch guarding is to keep that from happening in the first place.Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.
The SawStop has both an excellent riving knife and guard over the blade that are much better than 99% of the saws sold in the U.S. so they aren't depending on the brake mechanism alone to prevent injuries. The Brett Guard and similar aftermarket guards are sold to make up for the poor guards on the other 99% of the saws.
John W.
Can the SS guard remain in place with a dado set running? I think it can and of course that's a good thing...
Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.
Edited 6/14/2007 4:06 pm by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
For the dado I believe you have to swap out the cartridge for a special purpose cartridge.
For the dado I believe you have to swap out the cartridge for a special purpose cartridge.
Thanks... I wonder if John White would confirm this for our information....Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.
Just go to http://www.sawstop.com and click on accessories. You will see the listing for the dado cartridge which works with 8" dado sets. Lots of info on such things on the company's web pages.
Thanks....IMO that item should not be an accessory but shipped with the saw. It would be my guess that the vast majority of U.S. users have a dado set they intend to use on the saw.
Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.
Edited 6/15/2007 10:17 am by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
Sure they could ship it with every saw but why not just offer it as a part just for the shops that need it and not add it to the price of the basic saw.
Also, when you order the saw you need to order at least one extra cartridge of each type so you won't be stuck waiting for a replacement cartridge to be shipped if you trigger the brake. A spare blade is something of a neccesity too, since the blade is not usable after an "incident".
John W.
The SawStop has a cartridge for regular 10" blades and a different cartridge for 8" dado sets. The only obvious difference between the two is the size of the aluminum block that catches the saw blade when the brake is triggered.
John White
So is it possible to use an 8" dado without using the special dado cartridge? That is, will the dado fit around the cartridge used for the 10" saw (or does it have to be removed)?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
You must use the correct cartridge for the blade size. The electronics of the saw measures the distance from the brake block to the blade, and will not allow you to start the saw if the distance is more than about 1/8". This also means that you can only use 8" and 10" blades.John W.
The cartridge doesn't fit around the blade. The aluminum stop block mounts just outside the blade path. The cartridge doesn;t contact the blade; a mass of aluminum does. Is this what you are asking?Greg
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No........ assuming you are using a standard 10" blade, I was curious if you could install an 8" dado, leave the 10" cardridge in place, and thus, bypass the safety stop feature when using the dado. Removing the 10" cartridge, and installing an 8" cartridge seems like a lot of hassle if you just want to use the dado for a few cuts.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
That's a question for SawStop. I know you can by-pass the safety system. But I saw a demo and the changing of the cartridge/block ####'y only took seconds. I seem to recall that you pull a pin or turn a key and slide it off a locating pin. Perhaps one of the SawStop owners can clarify this.Greg
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Switching cartridges for the dado set is easy and only takes a couple minutes.
Neil
Cincinnati is right. As long as you have the blade out to change it, changing the cartridge is a piece of cake. It only takes a few seconds once you have a little practice. Initially I had some problems because the two studs the cartridge slids onto are not readily visible. You kind of have to feel around to find them. Now it is no problem. Initially I also had a minor problem adjusting the spacing of the cartridge from the blade. SawStop says to use a nickel as a guage. I kept dropping the nickel and having to reach up the dust port to retrieve it. Now I use a piece of brass the thichness of a nickel and about 3/4 by 3 inches.
GeorgeYou don't stop laughing because you grow old. You grow old because you stop laughing. - Michael Pritchard<!----><!----><!---->
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I have the SawStop and the Brett guard, and its a perfect combination. Do you need it? Perhaps not, but both are robust and easy to use. I have never had to remove the guard for any operation and it is built better and more rigid than any other overhead guard. I also have the dust pick-up option in the shroud of the guard. That in combination with the dust pick-up shroud incased in my SawStop virtually eliminates dust at its source.
I won't debate why SS made the decision to not offer a more robust guard, but the stock unit is comparable to other machines, but looking beyond that, nothing in the market at this price range is built as well or as precise.
I've been wondering about the Brett guard. I saw one in a video I have on the table saw, but never knew what it was called. It really looked like a great addition for my SawStop. Do you have any pictures showing how it attaches to the saw. Thanks for posting.
For those still reading this thread, I really love the SawStop. It is definately an excellent table saw. Yes, I use push sticks with it as well.
Edited 6/19/2007 11:21 pm ET by basset-hound
Hi BH
I attached two shots from my shop.
Thanks for the pictures. You have a nice looking shop. I'm planning on beig able to set up a "full time" shop within the next two years. Seeing pictures of other shops always gives me some new ideas. Thanks for posting the pictures.
Sounds great. The Brett is a pretty good unit.Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.
The guard and riving knife on the SawStop must be removed for dadoing, like any machine where the splitter or riving knife is attached to the arbor assembly below the table. This is one application where an over arm guard like the Brett Guard offers additional safety. On the SawStop the brake function is still active when dadoing, so there is still protection when dadoing on the machine without the guard.
John W.
John,I appreciate your input, but you seem to have misinterpreted my remarks. I'm not trying to sell anyone on the Brett guard. I'm interested in buying an effective guard for my saws. I bought a Unisaw shortly before the SawStop hit the market. Even if I had the money to buy a SawStop saw now, it would be a really extravagant purchase given the new Unisaw & the older Powermatic 64 in my shop. I would like to do something to my current saws to make them safer since I have never been able to satisfactorily set up the factory supplied splitters/guards on either saw -- & I tried. For hours. The Brett Guard is one option that seems to have been left out of the tests that several of the woodworking mags have done on aftermarket accessories over the last few years. The only comment that I have seen on it was Ian Kirby's recommendation in his book. I found the claim on meeting ANSI & OSHA standards in the Woodworker's Supply catalog interesting. I was not trying to use that as a point of argument against the SawStop. I was wondering if anyone had any honest feedback based on experience with one. I actually thought imbedding the question in the SawStop discussion might be a quick way of getting responses from safety conscious users without having to start a new thread, but obviously that was a mistake.
Greetings all,
Since I just purchased the Sawstop 3hp cabinet saw (and yes it set me back), I thought I would finally comment on all the sawstop controversy. Like the other poster; I just got it set up recently, and have only tried test pieces. So, far it seems like a quality cabinet saw. But, time will tell.
I think M71 got it right when he (or she) stated that it does not reduce the chance of an accident, but lessens the severity. THAT is enough; period. The rest of it just doesn't matter.
Besides, Gass or Glass or whatever can smoke his cigar. He can join the long list of innovators, CEO's, bosses, homebuilders, 401k managers, plummers, etc. who make a bundle off of us all.
Rabbet
"He can join the long list of innovators, CEO's, bosses, homebuilders, 401k managers, plummers, etc. who make a bundle off of us all." This, I will continue to insist, is a fallacy -- at least for the next few (or maybe several) years. It's not like he's selling a couple hundred thousand of these saws every year, and just try to imagine how much money it cost him to (a) bring the mechanism to dependable operation; (b) go through whatever machinations are required to line up a factory, provide specs, sign a contract for minimum production numbers; (c) advertise; (d) sign retailers; (e) get the first production run made; and (f) continue with product support and yet further development on the contractor saw version. Keeping in mind, of course, that he has to keep his price point where people will see it as a reasonable investment. Not easy in today's cheap-cheap-cheap market.
All that, and I'm sure I left things out. No way he's making any kind of significant money yet. Hope he lives long enough to see a decent reward for the amazingly ingenious safety mechanism he's made available to those of us smart enough to value it. Too bad Delta, WMH, et al., couldn't see past the ends of their noses to provide us with the option of having it on their saws.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 6/20/2007 12:16 am by forestgirl
Well said. I have been shaking my head in wonder at the absolute hatred some folks have for this man and his product. And have no use for people who appear to have have a personal vindictive crusade.I know I will buy one when I can afford it. So there :-)Cheers,Peter
I'm with forestgirl on the topic of Mr SawStop making his fortune. It takes 5-7 years for a company to turn a profit. Given the market focus, I can't see any indication that he has made a fortune to date.
Had Delta, Powermatic, Jet, and others who were approached to add this feature would not have rejected this technology as impossible to work, I believe it would have cost us end users even less. This man would not have had to incorporate all the expenses of bring a new product to market.
My hat is off to him. (Yes I know about his attempt to have government regulate that his components be put in every table saw sold.) Still makes sense to me to have this feature on a saw.Greg
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I have a question that maybe one of the owners or John WW can answer. Does the blade encounter the brake mechanism before the blade reaches the bottom of it's travel as it drops? More specifically does the rotation stop while the blade is still proud of the table?------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Yes, the blade stops before it drops below the table's surface, though the time difference is probably only a few thousandths of a second. It is the kicback on the arbor assembly when the brake block strikes the blade that causes a pawl to release and allow the arbor to drop down.
John W.
Thanks for the clarification John, I had been curious about that.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
"Had Delta, Powermatic, Jet, and others ...not...rejected this technology as impossible to work...." Another misconception, I fear. There was, at one time, an excellent article on the internet which described the meeting in which Mr. Glass(?) met with representatives of these companies to finalize a deal that appeared to be well in the works. The crowd was dominated by attornies, and by the end of it all, the deal was dead. The deal was killed by attornies. No indication that it was because of fears it wouldn't work. More complicated than it "not working": probably because they'd be sued by anyone who lost a body part when they didn't have the safety device on the saw.
I'd give my eye teeth to be able to relocate that article, but despite extensive searching, can't find it.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 6/20/2007 1:07 pm by forestgirl
One of their dealers told be it was rejected because "it is impossible to keep a finger from being cut off/cur/mangled once it contacts a moving saw blade.I wasn't there, but I am sure attorneys could kill it. However, I would worry more that when the next person loses a finger or a hand they would sue because Delta, et. al., had the opportunity to have this technology and rejected it.Greg
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The deal was killed by attornies
I'm not going to tell you that lawyers never screw up a deal, but it rarely happens. What does happen is that lawyers tell their clients what they need to protect their interests and sometimes what they need isn't what the other side is willing to give.
Mr. Gass found out that he was welcome to bring his invention to the marketplace by forming his own company to make tablesaws. That's great, that's what capitalism is all about.
His original wish was for the device to be mandated for all saws sold in the U.S. which would have allowed him to collect royalties and not engage in manufacturing tablesaws.
Choice in the marketplace has been preserved.
One can buy a SawStop and have protection when flesh hits the blade or one can buy a non-SawStop equipped saw and use guarding, feed devices, and safe shop practices to achieve, what I firmly believe, is an equivalent amount of protection. And you get to choose how you'd like to go about protecting yourself and/or your employees.
Otherwise, it is the old Left Coast Circle Jerk that's been around forever. Let's regulate everything and pass laws in Congress or petition government agencies, both of which are composed mostly of the "attornies" people like ForestGirl love to hate, but ultimately need to pass and enforce the regulation they appear to crave.
ForestGirl, in her own inimitable and inane way denigrates "attornies" [sic] out of one side of her mouth and then contemplates the likelihood (with a measure of glee it seems to me) of an injured employee suing (presumably through counsel) their employer because he didn't have a SawStop saw in place when an accident occurred. These damn pesky lawyers - I hate 'em, by God let's sue somebody. Why won't Congress (might as well be the national bar association) pass some law?
Surely, I'm not the only one who notices these incongruent arguments and posts by Mary, Mary, Quite Contrary.
And the icing on the cake is that Mr. Gass is a patent and trademark lawyer. What delicious and exquisite irony.
Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.
Edited 6/21/2007 10:39 am by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
"His original wish was for the device to be mandated for all saws sold in the U.S." Nope! His "original wish" was that the major US tool companies would buy the rights and install the device on their saws (some, or all, up to them). forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hey, Mr. Aliasx4, you'll have to provide a link to the post where I "propound the likelihood ... of an injured employee suing .. their employer because he didn't have a SawStop saw in place and they were injured in an accident. " I have no recollection of making such a post. It certainly wasn't in my last post: I was simply explaining what the speculation was as to why the corporate attornies killed the deal on the SawStop mechanism. I'll confess to not writing the sentence very clearly, but absent a citation from some other post that has slipped my mind, that's all.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Don't take this as gospel, but I seem to recall that the deal killer between the existing manufacturers & Mr. G was an issue of indemnification. IIRC, Mr. G was willing to offer the use of his patent to the manufacturers for incorporation in their machines, but was not willing to assume any liability for possible malfunctions of that equipment. If that was indeed the case, it would seem to be a wise choice for the manufacturers to refuse any deal. That would also support the rumor about "attorneys killing the deal". On another point, 3Rivers, thanks for the response on the Brett Guard!On still another point, which I really hesitate to get into again, I think I should respond to FG & some others about some of the comments made toward the detractors of SawStop/Mr. G. Before, I am misunderstood, as I often seem to be when responding in print, let me say that I'm trying to tone the rhetoric down. Some people's blood may be boiling over this issue, but mine is certainly not. There are two points here that are really nits, but they have generated a bit of traffic. First of all, when I, or I'm sure, anyone else here, refers to SawStop/Mr. G making money off of "us", we are certainly aware of the issues dealing with startup companies. Obviously, SawStop is not generating the income of Google, or MicroSoft, etc. There may be a long road to profitability. However. SawStop was not set up as a non-profit company with the altruistic mission to provide a safer environment for all woodworkers. If that was, or becomes the case, then I, and maybe some others, would probably change our positions. The goal of the company is to make money -- whenever that occurs. The more people that buy SawStop products, the sooner that will happpen. Those of us that resent the attempt to mandate the device would prefer that take as long as possible..........but the way things are selling, it looks like it will quickly turn into a profitable endeavor. Oh, well, I've been on the losing side many times. Someone on here referred to the apparent "hatred" aimed at SawStop/Mr. G. I don't hate the guy. I don't even dislike him. I don't know him, but I'm aware of something that he tried to do that I don't think is in the best interest of this country. When a politician does something that a person disagrees with, that individual has an opportunity in an election to express his dissatisfication with those actions. That's not the case here. The only opportunity to express dissatisfaction with the actions of Mr. G is to oppose his product in the market place............'nuff said. I'm going back to work & try to do something that is more fun & useful......like hitting my hand with a hammer or falling of a ladder. ;-)
Edited 6/21/2007 12:02 pm ET by bd
Don't take this as gospel, but I seem to recall that the deal killer between the existing manufacturers & Mr. G was an issue of indemnification. IIRC, Mr. G was willing to offer the use of his patent to the manufacturers for incorporation in their machines, but was not willing to assume any liability for possible malfunctions of that equipment. If that was indeed the case, it would seem to be a wise choice for the manufacturers to refuse any deal. That would also support the rumor about "attorneys killing the deal".
Well, assuming what you say is true, in my opinion if an attorney killed the deal it was Mr. Gass himself. "Here, please license this brand-new invention from me and completely release me from liability if it doesn't work."
I guess you won't get what you don't ask for.
Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.
Edited 6/22/2007 12:09 pm by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
Thanks for the effort at damping down the flames.
It probably wasn't altruism, maybe more like 'I told you it would work', but think in terms of opportunity costs. Gass is (was) a patent attorney. So, he might already be turning a profit, and still making far less than he would if he had continued to practice.
Jim
Just chiming in with a few thoughts on this discussion...
Really can't see the argument against SS unless you (like me) have a great saw already and can't justify buying another and likely selling the present saw for less then value.
As for the Brett Guard...I am a H.S. Shop Teacher (second career) and have just purchased one for use on a Unisaw. It replaced a Penn State overarm guard purchased just 2 yrs ago that was sadly lacking. The Brett Guard was very easy to install ( 2 students in under an hour), it provides great protection, comes with a splitter and in combination with a decent insert is the most impressive safety add on that I have seen in my 30 some years of Woodworking. The plastic/lexan guard pops up for easy cleaning or to get it out of the way, although I can't see the need to other than for cleaning as it adjusts up for dadoing. Dust pickup is ok. It does not sag and need constant readjusting as other overarm guards might. Used it for 2 months only but am happy that I bought it.
John,
Forgive me for this as I enjoy your thoughtful posts but....... Why is it that your posts are always in CAPS?? ARE YOU DIRECTED TO DO SO BY OTHERS?? IT'S A BIT ANNOYING, I'LL GET USED TO IT IF NEED BE BUT IT IS INDICATIVE OF SOMEONE ASSERTING AUTHORITY,
hope you take this well but I am curious, work in caps if you must but tell us why please.
"Why is it that your posts are always in CAPS?? ARE YOU DIRECTED TO DO SO BY OTHERS?? IT'S A BIT ANNOYING" I think you must have John White (JWW) mixed up with someone else. His posts are in a slightly larger font than most of the rest (see this last post), but I don't think I've ever seen him YELL in a post here at Knots.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 6/28/2007 11:05 pm by forestgirl
you're right...Sorry but the font is large and disturbing to me at least. Its a minor thing , I'll get used to it if need be but was wondering.
I believe he said in a past post that the larger font is neccessary for his eyes . As a vision challenged person myself I can relate, and for the knowledge and insight he brings as shop manager at FWW the slightly larger font is a small price.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
It's different, but I like it 'cause I know it's John (most of the time). I always feel a bit cheated when someone else posts with that font, LOL.
There's nothing worse than all CAPS, unless it's all CAPS with no paragraph breaks. Yikes.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
What font and SHOUTING are you all talking about here folks? I have my browser set to ignore all font style and size settings specified by web browsers and show everything as Book Antiqua, size 10.
It's quite easy to do by going to Tools, Internet Options, and then click alternately on the Fonts and Accessibility buttons to impose the style and settings you want. I'm using Internet Explorer 7, incidentally. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Richard, once in awhile (rarely, thank heavens) a member will POST IN ALL CAPS, AND IT'S OFTEN A VERY, VERY LONG POST WITH LOTS AND LOTS OF EXPLANATION AND QUESTIONS. THIS IS CONSIDERED YELLING BY THE ETIQUETTE GURUS OF THE INTERNET, AND IT CAN BE AGGRAVATING, FOR SURE.
That is what he (sorry, can't remember his name) thought John White was doing, but he was mistaken.
Cheers.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I know what you're saying on the ALL CAPS thing. I never read anything that's ALL IN CAPS on the internet or anywhere else. I just ignore it and move on.
much the same can be said for anyone that writes entirely in lower case with no full-stops commas colons semi colons initial capitalistion etc
If someone is rude enough to post using ALL CAPS, then whatever they say isn't worth reading. If people aren't prepared even to attempt to write reasonably intelligible script that's the end of anything they might have to say on a topic. I just ignore their message. I ain't in to txt spk and other forms of illiteracy either.
Simple spelling mistakes, malapropisms, brain farts, fat finger syndrome, etc., I'm very tolerant of, but wilful disregard for any attempt at courtesy and literacy gets the bum's rush at this end, but then I'm maybe a written english snob.
I was just pointing out that it's very easy to override any poster's preferred font style or size by adjusting a few setting in IE7. On my monitor everyone writes using Book Antiqua, size 10 font, no matter what they think they're font style or size is. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 6/29/2007 2:53 pm by SgianDubh
forestgirl, it is called shouting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_caps
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
Shouting, yelling, whatever. I don't see a huge difference. Nor do I think that most people here who happen to use ALL CAPS realize it's impolite in the cyberworld.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 6/30/2007 7:22 pm by forestgirl
fghow about all lower case with no punctuation marks my youth in my church send me emails like this and i for one can't stand it i had a young man applying for a job send me an email like this i really had to work to read it hope you are well tom :)"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
ForestGirl, in her own inimitable and inane way denigrates "attornies" [sic] out of one side of her mouth and then contemplates the likelihood (with a measure of glee it seems to me) of an injured employee suing (presumably through counsel) their employer because he didn't have a SawStop saw in place when an accident occurred. These damn pesky lawyers - I hate 'em, by God let's sue somebody.
I don't think Forestgirl needs to be defended by me, but I didn't feel denigrated by her comment.
Why won't Congress (might as well be the national bar association) pass some law?
Actually, products liability law doesn't work that way. Some enterprising lawyer will sue on behalf of an injured person who lost a hand in a table saw not equiped with available technology like Sawstop. The argument will be that the product was unreasonably unsafe. Sawstop's development means that one of the usual defenses, "the technology isn't available," won't help the defendant.
Note that Congress doesn't need to pass any laws for this scenario to come to pass. If some plaintiff wins a big judgment, you can be sure that the tool companies will be asking Congress to pass some law protecting them from juries.
There was never any real liklihood that any government would mandate Sawstop technology. What might have happened is a regulation that would have mandated the desired end result, but which would leave the means up to individual manufacturer.
As to people who profess to hate government regulation, I have one word: Thalidomide.
Individually, amputations from tablesaw accidents are hardly the personal injury gold mine they are being made out to be in this and other threads. Most busy personal injury attorneys won't even fool with them and if they do a first year associate handles the negotiations with the insurance company. These things rarely go to trial because it can almost always be shown that the operator was partially (if not wholely) responsible for the accident by removing the guard, not using a push stick, or bypassing power feed devices. These cases are settled as a matter of convenience to the insurance carrier.
You need witnesses to testify that a company's management literally forbade the use of guards, pushsticks, feeding devices, etc. to make any real hay with one of these.
Thalidomide is a lousy example since the risk is not clear on its face as is the risk one notes when looking at a running tablesaw. One can't look at a small pill and become informed of its danger, but one can with most woodworking equipment.
I am not against all government regulation.
Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.
Edited 6/22/2007 9:28 am by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
Can we just let it go and all of us understand that you hate the man, his company and the product (present and future?). You will obviously not buy his product. So be it. It is starting to sound like a crusade IMHO.Cheers,PeterEdited 6/22/2007 1:14 am by PeterDurand
Edited 6/22/2007 1:18 am by PeterDurand
Hate him? Hell, he's my hero. Steve Gass just oozes moxie.
Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.
Edited 6/22/2007 6:52 am by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
Point taken.
You also might want to review Mr. Gass's petition to the CPSC.Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.
You also might want to review Mr. Gass's petition to the CPSC.
I did. My point was that it was never going to prevail.
It always amazes me that people complain about someone who is trying to make money on their inventions. If the whole public took that stance there wouldn't be any inventions. <!----><!----><!---->
I think of my father in situations like this. He had several patents, but because he worked on them while employed by companies that wanted the credit for his work, his name was never listed on them. When he had a heart attack the doctor had him take a breath of a gas so that they could diagnose the severity of the attack. My dad, being the constant scientist, asked the doctor what the gas was. After he explained that he was a scientist that worked in Spectrometry the doctor told him what the gas was. It turned out that it was one of the gasses that my father discovered in his work at the nuclear reactor in Oakridge, Tennessee, but never got any of the "credit" for his discovery. Sure, he worked for a salary. It would have been nice, however, to at least been given come extra compensation or "credit' for his accomplishments.
I'm not complaining at all. I'm glad that Mr. Gass has the opportunity to make plenty of money. See my post about capitalism/free enterprise/choice.
I don't know for sure, but I suspect that Mr. Gass was already a very successful man before he entered the woodworking machinery fray.
He's not worried about paying the light bill or the installment note on a Yurt.Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.
Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact.
So there. I just did. As long as we're talking legal matters, I'll point out your "disclaimer" is in violation of the Taunton User Agreement:
By transmitting any public Communication to the Sites, you grant to Taunton Interactive, Inc. a perpetual, worldwide, irrevocable, unrestricted, non-exclusive, royalty-free license to use, copy, license, distribute, display, reproduce, transmit, modify, edit, and otherwise exploit such public Communication, in all media now known or later developed.
I don't think Taunton will have any problem with me copying, using, or otherwise "exploiting" your posts on their behalf. It's inherent to the very nature of an online discussion forum.
Barry, can't you see that in the context of a woodworking forum the disclaimer is a joke?Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.
Edited 6/22/2007 1:33 pm by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
By this point, it's clear what you believe, firmly or otherwise, so you really don't need to keep repeating it. If you were to provide a fact or two, say about accident rate correlations to the use of blade guards, it would be far more likely to earn your beliefs respect than calling other's ideas inane.
If the reason you can't readily provide data is that there is a vacuum of hard information on the topic, that would be a primary reason, especially for an institution, to choose an expensive solution that has been subjected to serious testing instead of a solution for which the evidence is of the annecdotal, common-sense sort.
Jim
JamieWhat irks me most about table saws is how MOST manufacturers make a saw with substandard blade guards, ineffective splitter. Riving knifes are few, but are a great safety addition to a saw. To add decent splitters, blade guards and riving knives would add how much cost to a saw? We've seen how popular the new Powermatic table saw is just with the addition of a riving knife and mobile base. Imagine if all makers included such features. Budget limited my table saw purchase, and I chose the Ridgid TS3650. For the money it is a great saw, yet the blade guard and splitter that came with the saw cannot easily or effectively be mounted in line with the blade; are a pain to use, and thus are sitting on a shelf in my garage collecting dust. I use a zero clearance insert and an aftermarket splitter, push sticks and a careful approach until the day I can afford a Saw Stop. My understanding is the SS is hard to keep in the store. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
I agree about the cr*p the major companies try to pass off as safety equipment on the saws. When I sold my little retail business last fall, I thought about upgrading my table saw (old blue Jet contractor saw), which would have blown all of the "play money" allowed by the sale. But I've decided I'll not upgrade until I can go all the way to the SawStop. I'd really like to have a saw with a riving knife, but given a choice between that and one that's vitually (virtually) guaranteed not to cut off any of my digits, I'll suffer without the riving knife, use my PSI overhead guard and be happy.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG,
Regarding my last comment; He can join the long list of innovators, CEO's, bosses, homebuilders, 401k managers, plummers, etc. who make a bundle off of us all."
YES, I realize it must have been a significant investment in time and money for Mr. G. I'm in the drug industry, and for every tablet that gets to market, there has been years of research, development, and testing. Does it cost $8.00 a tablet to make drug xyz? No, but it cost a bundle to get there.
SO, the point of my post was that if my sawstop goes off, and I get a small cut, instead of loosing fingers or a hand; I, for one, HOPE that Mr. G. is having a Cuban cigar (and a martini) on my dime. Some things are worth the money.
CHEERS.
The Brett guard i think it was invented by a woodworking teacher name Brett who taught at Chelsea vocational H.S. in N.Y.C. around 1960.If i am not right ,then i cound be wrong.
Whatever happined to IMHO?red
hmmmm, I know at times that I can be an opinionated, flaming, er, what can I say on this forum, "posterior void" (?).......but don't know what you're referring to in this thread......Anyway, I most humbly accept the implications of your comment.
I'll bite. Just how did you get screwed? Misrepresentation?
Just being facetious. This thread almost made it past the first shot but as usual the Sawstop debate resurfaced again. About the saw itself I am pleased with it. I just finished setting it up this past weekend so I only cut a few peices of scrap wood. It will be a while before I get a chance to do a whole lot with it. Two reasons I bought the saw 1. I wanted to upgrade to a quality cabinet saw. 2. I am one of those stupid average machine operators who after twenty years woodworking cut three fingers on the tablesaw and was lucky enough not to loose any. So I guess I had been doing things wrong for a long time and have been very lucky. :) So depends how you add up the cost between Sawstop and other brands it was easy for the wife to agree to spend an additional $500-$1000 on the Sawstop. Charlie
it was easy for the wife to agree to spend an additional $500-$1000 on the Sawstop.
Charlie, you've got a very smart wife. Take good care of her.
GeorgeYou don't stop laughing because you grow old. You grow old because you stop laughing. - Michael Pritchard<!----><!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
Nine cents worth of scrap plywood can be made into a push-shoe that will prevent cutting off anything if it's judiciously used.
That's a very true statement to a point and all of us should take every safety precaution possible to be safe in our workshops. But, it's not a good reason for dismissing the advantages of the SawStop technology.
I have already read two posts on woodworking forums from woodworkers who regretted not buying a SawStop. In both cases the guys suffered loss of a finger or part of one due to a table saw accident. Yes, both were very safe workers and they explained that one reason they didn't get a SawStop was that they were always carelul around their tools. They admitted that they were interested in a SawStop and could have afforded one, but chose not to buy one due to their past safety practices and record. I was surprised how similar both posts were, but I know that they were definately written by two different people. My feeling is that if there are these two who posted, there must be more woodworkers who have done this as well.
I certainly don't wish a table saw accident on anyone, nor do I plan to be careless and have one myself. Noone plans to have accidents and all of us should use table saws safely, but accidents do happen. They even happen to us.
If 'being careful' means you still use your bare hands then that's not being nearly careful enough.
Things happen too fast on a tablesaw to simply 'be careful' with your bare hands.
Oh, for pete's sake, give it a break. Everybody gets the point that you think a lot of the population are morons and that anyone who buys a sawstop is a gullable mullet. We get the point, but we don't all agree. Things happen. Nobody plans to have an accident. Accidents are, well accidental. I have known immensely competent people in any number of activities who got hurt because they were rushed or careless, or over confident. They all freely accepted responsibility. But when you are maimed, you are maimed.So maybe some people want a real foolproof belt and suspenders. Whay does that offend you?Joe
I can't say for sure that tripping the brake repeatedly wouldn't do some damage, but given the thought they obviously put into the machine's design I doubt if it will be a problem. The arbor and trunnion on the saw are massive compared to an ordinary cabinet saw. The motor is connected to the arbor by a two stage belt drive that probably absorbs most of the shock when the brake fires.
I wouldn't call any of the trips we had in the shop "false", granted they didn't involve fingers, but in each case the operator made a clear error and ran metal into the blade.
I've been witness to ,and the occasional victim, of table saw mistakes, the cost of a few blade and cartridge sets still seems worth it to prevent a real accident.
John White
Wow John,
You guys shure do cut up a lot of jigs and such at the FWW shop. Why is that? I like your participation in the forum.
Thanks,Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
John,The manager of the shop I frequent (the Indiana University sculpture department's woodworking shop) says that he won't buy sawstop saws because the accidental triggering that is likly to happen would be too annoying and costly. I don't think the cost of the saw in an issue here, since they had the money to buy a CNC machine last year. Right now we have an old rockwell/delta 3hp and a big powermatic IIII with a 5hp motor. They have effectively have NO blade guard because the guards we were forced to install (saftey code) are terrible things that are welded to the ceiling above the saw and swivel down to cover the bade. I have never seen one in use, and in fact one is bent to the side to allow the cutting of taller work. There were no zero clearence inserts until I made some, and there are no splitters either. If you look in the scrap bin, there is almost always a piece of sheel with a deep kickback arc cut into it. Do you think, from your experience, that the accidental triggering of the sawstop and the related costs make it prohibitive to use in a shared shop? The shop manager is afraid that people would push hotdogs into the blade just to see it work, for fun. I disagree. I personally think it's amazing that we haven't had anyone lose a finger yet. What I would like to do, ideally, is get some kind of testamonial from users that I could include in a proposal to get sawstop saws in our shop. Vincent
Vincent,
If the school's shop ever has a major injury, which seems inevitable, they are going to be in a very hard to defend position and the manger will justifiably be out of a job. In my experience shops run by artists are much more lax about safety than true woodworking shops and their accident records show it.
I'm not saying they need a SawStop, but they need to have a rational and consistent safety program, you must for a shop that is in an institution. I'm surprised that the school's liability insurer hasn't inspected the shop and pressured them to clean up their act.
Given how poorly the shop seems to be run, I would guess that there might be quite a few triggers of the saw, but the problem would be with the shops management not the saw.
The best source for testimonials would be SawStop's manufacturer, they've received quite a few of them since they started the business, check their web site.
By the way, SawStop replaces, for free, cartridges that have been triggered by skin contact. The fired cartridge must be returned to them and they can read out and identify the cause of the triggering event from the cartridge's memory chip. Replacing the blade isn't included.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
Thanks for the quick response. I may have made the shop sound a bit worse than it is in some respects... the manager does do a 1 hour safety tutorial with everyone who has access to the shop... it's just that not everyone really UNDERSTANDS what makes a certain operation safe vs. unsafe. On the other end of the scale, I have seen students take wide pieces of 1/4" plywood, move the fence out of the way on the TABLESAW and push them through the blade w/o a crosscut guide. But to his credit the manager makes everyone aware of push sticks and how to use them, and he does stop any unsafe practices when he actually sees them. He's just burnt out on his job and skeptical of new technologies. Personally, I can't wait to get my home shop fully equipped so that I can do all my work on better cared for and calibrated equipment, with sharp blades and proper safety considerations. Vincent
Seems like the Art department could prevent intentional triggerings with hot dogs or other processed meats by simply requiring the students to pay for replacement cartidges and blades if they chose to intentionally test out the brake mechanism...I agree that the "logic" for not getting one is illogical...I know that at the Marc Adams school ALL of the saws have been replaced with SawStops
I've had one for 6 months and have cut lots of wood...have had no accidental triggerings and no kickback...most of the discussions of the SawStop do seem pointless....I'm sure that the Powermatics and Deltas with similiar stats perform just as well...probably MOST people exercising reasonable caution will never discover the need for that particular safety feature...personally I'm alot more afraid of kickback....I refuse to operate my saw at all if I've had a beer within the last hour (or if it's a Belgian, two hours), safety brake or not.
Neil
What are you classifying as "accidental Triggering"? Are you talking about hitting metal or from cutting the wrong material, or ...?
The saw has a feature where you can slide the material to be cut against the blade before you start the saw; it will indicate if the material will trip the safety device.
Your description of the shop safety mindset is concerning to me. I would not want to work in it because it sure sounds like too many people work unsafely! Fear that someone will attempt to cut a hot dog, signs of kickback continually throughout the scrap bin, lack of guard use are all indications that the management of the shop does not take the dangers of the equipment seriously.
When I was 6, my father took me hunting with him. He continuously reminded me and quizzed me on safe procedures to carry a gun through slippery terrain, over fences, across streams, etc. And he demonstrated what he taught. My grandfather did the same thing when he taught me woodworking skills. I hold the shop manager responsible for the accident that is about to happen.
The SawStop is not the answer to a shop that doesn't practice common sense safety precautions to protect the operators and those around them.GREG
<!---->•••••••
Exo 35:30-35<!---->
"The SawStop is not the answer to a shop that doesn't practice common sense safety precautions to protect the operators and those around them."
Amen.Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.
Neither is a Delta, Powermatic, General...
Surely to God you aren't suggesting those brands are the standard by which equipment should be judged?
I do agree that the market is fairly crowded in that price point/quality combination. They've become rather ubiquitous by virtue of advertising.
Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.
Edited 6/18/2007 9:35 am by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
That was not the point.Cheers,Peter
I agree with Charlie. I've seen the SawStop demonstrated twice now. The first time it was done personally for me when I was considering purchasing a SawStop and the owner of the company offered to demonstrate the saw for me. He pushed a piece of wood while holding the hot dog. I can say that his rate of cut was much faster than I would have used for the same piece of wood. The second time was at the Woodworking Show in Pomona, California. At the show the same company was demonstrating the saw. This time one of the employees, not the owner, did the demonstration. He too cut much faster than I felt would be normal for the wood he was holding the hot dog on. In both demonstrations the saw blade was at or near it's highest possible position. The guys explained to me that they do that because they want people to actually see the blade drop. I must say that I had a hard time seeing the blade actually drop. I've also examined the blades of several fireings and was amazed to see that the teets that had just passed the blade beore the brake fired were untouched, fully intact and sharp. It's that fast! Needless to say that I have no doubt that this system works and I am now a SawStop owner. Even without the brake this would be a fantastic saw.
If my recollection is correct, the blade is stopped and disappears in 1/5 the time it takes an auto airbag to deploy. There is no way a person can watch this.
You see the blade. You hear the band of the mass being jammed into the blade. By the time the sound registers in your brain, the blade is gone.
This is an ingenious invention. According to a recent advert, it has saved fingers and hands on 99 people so far.GREG
<!---->•••••••
Exo 35:30-35<!---->
It would be pointless if it didn't work while engaged in work....
That was the point of my question. How it differentiates a finger or metal when working hard cutting hardwood at a high feedrate is an amazing feat. Kudo's to the company, I wish I could afford one of these machines. I guess I'll just have to continue with being alert and safety conscience....thanks everyone for the input...
Jeff
PS - I'll bet in Western Europe, they'll eventually outlaw all other machines to protect society from itself....;-)
Jeff,
The SawStop uses a very small electrical current to distinguish between wood and a finger. Wood doesn't conduct electeicity and a finger does. When the electronics in the SawStop detects a slight drop in current that it sends out to the blade, the brake fires.
I thought I'd never be able to have one either. Once I showed the videos on the website to the LOML, she wanted me to buy one. Fortunately for me I got more than enough money back on my income taxes for last year to cover the cost. There are ways that you can save for one if that's truly what you want. You can even have your bank set up an automatic savings account, so you'll earn interest on the money as well.
Like I said before, it is an excellent saw without the brake feature.
"The Sawstop uses a very small electrical current to distinguish between wood and finger."
Technically I don't think the captioned statement is quite correct. From my admittedly small bit of understanding of the Sawstop, it uses the difference in capacitance between wood and finger to distinguish between the two, not that it makes any practical difference.
Quote from Tinkerer2:
"The Sawstop uses a very small electrical current to distinguish between wood and finger." Wood doesn't conduct electeicity and a finger does. When the electronics in the SawStop detects a slight drop in current that it sends out to the blade, the brake fires.
Technically I don't think the captioned statement (blue print above) is quite correct. From my admittedly small bit of understanding of the Sawstop, it uses the difference in capacitance between wood and finger to distinguish between the two, not that it makes any practical difference.
Reply:
It does if you read it in the full context of the statement that I posted The red text above). The difference in capoacitence what happens when a finger touches the blade as opposed to a piece of wood. That capacitance causes the drop in voltage or current and is regiseterd in the electronics of the SawStop. It detects the drop and fires the brake. In just used less technical language than you did.
Edited 5/16/2007 10:38 pm ET by basset-hound
Jeff, I seem to remember that he (the inventor) got the idea from seeing "touch lamps" in action -- those lamps where you touch the metal base to turn on/off or move through 3 brightness settings. Talk about putting an idea into action!! It's a long, long ways from a $19.95 lamp to a "smart" cabinet saw.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Good news on the horizon. Sawstop is producing a contractors model which will be available at the end of the year.
Here is the link:
http://www.sawstop.com/products-contractor-saw.htm
I think I saw somewhere that he price tag will be around $1,000.
Hi:
I happened to e-mail SawStop about the contractor saw a few days ago, and they told me it would sell for $1400. At one point the figure $700 was floating about, and I too heard $1000 a few months ago- so the trend is not encouraging.
Simon
I've seen the demo twice- Light travels a wee bit faster than sound- The sound is still ringing in your ears long after you see the drop
If you can see the blade drop in real time, you've got a better central nervous system than I have. Light does travel faster than sound, but the blade is gone in less than .005 sec. (1/200th of a sec max). I thought that I posted :by the time you hear it, it is gone. The brain cannot process the signals fast enough to be cognoscente of what is happening.
I have seen the demo a few times. For me personally, I could not see the blade drop. One instant it was cutting wood; the next instant it was gone. I could not even see the blade stop spinning.GREG
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Okay- one more time for the kids with a slow nervous system-by the time you hear it- it will be gone- (true)I assume your eyes are open when you look at it ???Even if you were deaf- you'd still be able to see it-do the math again with speed of light = 300,000 meters/secHave a nice weekend
Dave
You definitely seem to have an on going post here. So I'll throw my 2 cents in here.
I have a saw stop and I love the thing.
When I bought it... I thought ..well i guess i went over board and now I'm safer...now this is my view.
It DOES NOT make my shop safer ..that's a me thing. It DOES however reduce the damage when an accident happens like a seat belt. It also certainly makes saftey much more convenient with the quick change riving knife and dado/regular brake change.
My look on it is that
- It's a great quality machine even without the brake.
- It provides many different safety features that are very quick and convenient to change and to mix and match i.e. riving knife and mechanism for cross cutting...just the brake for dadoes or the blade guard riving knife and mechanism for most cuts.
The real thing that I love about the saw stop is that it makes safety easier. I'm not spending 5 min replacing and take off guards and setting up for the next cut. I can go from a standard cut with a riving knife to a dado in about 1 min. I find I'm less likely to say...awww it's safe enough because I got lazy that day.
For myself I take every precaution i can..feather boards..push sticks..fences and I trust the saw stop for the other..'I never thought off'..or 'oops' or 'the god that was so stupid'.
I have yet to set the brake off ..though a friend of mine demo'd it with hitting a fastener while i was there...it took 2 teeth off and bent a forrest blade (2nd cut with the blade mind you). Even after the expense of getting the blade repaired and the brake...my friend and I are still glad that we bought it.
My goodness, you really appear to have a hate on for this product.
I have the sawstop and yes it works. I was cutting some hard maple with a dado blade. The brake engaged and the saw jumped a half inch. The blake engaged not due to my finger but due to the metal on my cross cut fence, it was too close to the blade which was my own stupidity. I just have too vent here. I read posts for several months and the contempt for the sawstop is becoming rediculus. We are all adults if you think the safety feature or the extra cost is unwarranted, then don't buy it and shut the pie hole. let the people who own discuss the merits of the machine.
Another possibility is that the price of tablesaws will quintuple.
Maybe, but probably not. To use the Sawstop technology as an example, if it were universally used, it would add to the price of the tool, but certainlywouldn't make it prohibitively expensive. It seems as though every time a solution to an obvious safety hazard come along, manufacturers claim it will be too expensive, won't work, etc. I'm old enough to remember when seatbelts were alleged to be too complicated and airbags would never work.
Another nice example is lawn mowers. People too stupid or too young or too distracted to know better would try to remove a clog from a running mower and chop off their hand. Mowers now are designed to make that very unlikely. It costs a few bucks more per machine, but saves a smaller number of people a lot of hurt.
As far as drug regulation is concerned, the FDA could do a better job, but what is the alternative? Trust the drug companies to always carefully test their product?
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