Replies

1. 
   MikeHennessy | Mar 02, 2007 07:27pm | #1

   Hi, Ed.

   Get youself a case a beer and a bunch of snacks, do a search of the archives here for "Sawstop", and read to your heart's content for a few days, at least. The beer & chips should get you through the L O N G task ahead of you.

   ; - )

   Mike Hennessy
   Pittsburgh, PA

2. 
   forestgirl | Mar 02, 2007 07:52pm | #2

   Here's one opinion that I'd trust:
   http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=31213.24

    

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 
   

1. 
   edsea | Mar 02, 2007 08:46pm | #3

   thanks for the reference, that thread pretty much answered my question.  It sounds like the saw is a high quality and well designed product regardless of its safety functions.  Does anyone know where they are built?  I will have to see one and talk to the reps prior to deciding on a saw purchase.  Thanks again,  Ed

2. 
   paretsky | Mar 02, 2007 09:00pm | #4

   I'm not trying to hijack this thread, but does anyone know when the SawStop contractor version will be out? I checked their website and they say that it in in the field testing phase, which sounds promising, but maybe there's more info floating around out there somewhere?"Light the lamp, not the rat! Light the lamp, not the rat!!"
   Rizzo the Rat, A Muppet Christmas Carol

1. 
   mvflaim | Mar 02, 2007 09:06pm | #5

   I called them a few weeks ago and they said it would be available sometime in 2007 but didn't know exactly when. I also asked if they were going to sell it through their dealer network or will it only be avaible direct from them but they couldn't answer that yet. They're still deciding. 

2. 
   Joby | Mar 03, 2007 04:27pm | #6

   This is meant as a real question, not a smug attack, but who is still buying contractor's saws? They aren't for contractors anymore and they have so many downsides in a shop that they don't seem to make much sense. High end bench tops are pretty nice and can cover the lower price range. The hybrids are bit more expensive than a basic contractor's saw, but the nicer ones are pretty close in cost. It seems like an inovative company like SawStop (and others) would be looking for ways to design hybrids that could cover the full price range above benchtops. Again, this is not an attack but it seems like the contractor's saw should go the way of the radial arm saw, still made, but more of a specialty tool than a shop staple.

1. 
   forestgirl | Mar 03, 2007 08:18pm | #8

   While I tend to agree with you that the SawStop mechanism would be much more desireable packaged in a hybrid saw rather than a contractor saw, I think you're off base in your pricing argument.  Hybrid saws can be much more expensive than contractor saws, partly because contractor saw prices (at the low end) have come down quite a bit in the last severeal years. 

   Just looking at Delta and Jet, there's a big difference between their low-end contractor prices and their hybrids (as much as double with Delta.)  Looking at Grizzly saws, there's only $200 difference between the low-end contractor saw and their hybrid.  But in that price range ($525 v. $725), $200 is alot -- "been there, struggled like that."

   Putting a brake mechanism in a hybrid saw would probably defeat the purpose of trying to get the feature in the hands of people at the intro level of the market.  I think we can expect the SawStop Contractor Saw to be an excellent saw (of that design).  To put a hybrid out that meets their standards would make for a very expensive hybrid.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

1. 
   Joby | Mar 04, 2007 03:50pm | #12

   I agree that that is the case right now, but it seems like design for the future would (or should) tend towards getting the mid-cost saws to be a hybrid design, not an open base contractors design, which doesn't seem to have the benefits it once had. The parts and the mechanisms are practically the same, so I can't see why it would be much problem to head in that direction. It seems like an innovative company like SawStop would want to be a leader in bringing out moderate cost hybrids.

3. 
   JerryPacMan | Mar 03, 2007 05:33pm | #7

   They had a demo of the contractor saw on last Saturday's This Old House.  I would guess that it will be available soon.  The blade retracts incredibly fast and the hot dog did not have a mark on it   

   Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .

1. 
   BG | Mar 04, 2007 02:51am | #9

   JerrypacMan,

   I watched that demo twice on This Old House and I'm not realy sure what I saw. You'll recall Tom comes out with a portable saw..shows how the mechanism works...but it's not toatlly clear if he's running the hot dog on a portable, contractor or cabinet saw...and he never says SawStop. My best guess is it was a contractor saw he demonstrated..but not positive. Weird  

1. 
   DanG | Mar 04, 2007 07:48am | #10

   BG,As it happens, I recorded that program and hadn't erased it yet, so I went back and looked (it was Ask This Old House Program #517, by the way, in case someone wants to find it). It ran here on January 28th, and it was the SawStop contractor saw that they used for the hot dog demo. The portable saw was used only to demonstrate the functions of the customary guard, splitter, kickback pawls, and outfeed extensions. You're right, nobody ever mentioned SawStop, but the name was heavily embossed into sheetmetal extension panels flanking both sides of the table, and it wasn't difficult to read when the camera panned over them. And of course they did get a mention in the Special Thanks when the credits ran at the end. No mention of the portable saw, though.Dan

2. 
   BG | Mar 04, 2007 12:19pm | #11

   DanG,

   Thanks for clearing that up...

3. 
   mtclay1 | Mar 04, 2007 06:17pm | #13

   hey there edsea. bought sawstop(actually my boys did for me),they plunked down the 4k for the full boat ride(5hp 52 inch rails etc).its a beautiful saw. there are some dos and donts involved with this saw. any foreign material that may conduct elctricity would set of the brake(including wet wood,metals.nails.staplesetc.you also cannot put blade on backwards  at any time(cutting plastics).see if saw stop wont sell you the user guide to let you know the dos and donts before buying cause they never publish these honest uses when buying!i am a tile and stone man bytrade but love woodworking.my boys thought the fingers were worth the money.the fence and rails and extensions were a pain to get aligned like all the other online complaints with power matic delta etc.the set up was all day including the electrical hookup.the hook up wires were tiny.all the crating was ok but i questioned the crates cause made in tawian was all over them!called the company and I asked  wasnt this advertized as american?they said some parts were made in tawain and assembly done in the usa and some parts(brake etc) were american.so the motor looks tawianese.by the way the saw does work well and happy with the slighty larger table.iwas looking for powermatic 2000pm and would think the quality is the same for both.good!but the pm2000 was much less and a jointer and planer could be sitting in my  shop for the difference. the choice is yours,but the saw does work well. sincerely clay

1. 
   woodman2263 | Mar 05, 2007 05:22pm | #14

   Maybe I am just missing it on the whole Saw Stop thing?  Why would anyone (hobbiest or production shop) spend 4K on a table saw?  I understand the price of a finger and the price of insurance, but it keeps coming to my mind that the only thing this saw does is help people that are using the saw without guards! 

   Let's take for example the PM2000 with a biesemeyer overarm guard.  How would you cut off your finger?  The only way I can see cutting off your finger is to stick your finger under the guard?  If someone did that, they would atleast know what was going to happen.  And how often does that happen?  I understand that there are some situations that it has occured, but it should not have with some BASIC rules to follow.

   Don't misunderstand me, I think the SawStop is a wonderful invention and they should be congratulated, but come on 4K.

   I'm just getting tired of Woodcraft trying to shove this thing down my throat everytime I go into the store.  They even wear the damn SawStop hats!  When I asked them since this thing is the best thing since sliced cheese how many of them had one in their shop, they said none, we can't afford one.  I really got a kick out of that! 

   Ok, I'll get off of my soap box.  I'm just so tired of hearing about this saw and people trying to sell it to me.  4K in my shop would buy a lot of PM and LN.

   Jeff

1. 
   DJK | Mar 05, 2007 05:44pm | #15

   Thank you, well said.

2. 
   forestgirl | Mar 05, 2007 09:07pm | #16

   Let's compare apples to apples.  The 4K was for a 5 HP saw with 52 inch rails, not a 1.5 or 2 HP run-of-the-mill saw with 30-inch rails.  Using the prices on the SawStop site, I come up with $3,370 before shipping.  Shipping depends on location, and ranges between $425 and $600.

   A Powermatic 5HP 3-phase saw at Amazon currently costs $2900, with $149 shipping.  So, the difference in the cost of the saw is $470, with greater savings on shipping.  Trying to find the price on comparable Steel City saw, not there yet.....ah about $2200 at one site.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

   Edited 3/5/2007 1:11 pm by forestgirl

3. 
   Cincinnati | Mar 06, 2007 03:25am | #17

   I learned of a dentist whose wife bought the saw for him as a gift. ANYONE whose living would be severly impared by a hand injury would benefit. The question I have is : Other than a leg model, whose living is not impaired by the loss of a hand?This saw's safety features offer a level of protection even when the guard is removed and the saw is coasting down to a stop. I am a recreational furniture maker with pre-teen boys. I won't let them have access to tools without proper training. But many people who have cut off a digit had proper training and just did a stupid thing for an instance. i view the extra $600-$1000 for this saw like a great insurance policy. I hope I never need it, but if I do I'll never regret paying the price.

4. 
   mtclay1 | Mar 10, 2007 05:19am | #24

   well if you dont have...youll never know.Il looked at all table saws including laguna,powermatic,delta,oliver,grizzly,general,and lobo.steel city hadnt released them yet.the price difference was 500.00 from equivalent power matic(66).my boys(who bought me the saw) felt one trip to the hospital would make both saws the same price but the saw stop would leave my fingers intact.many cabinet shops here in san diego are trading the powermatics in for the saw stop.I asked them why and they responded that one accident was too many and the Quality of the saw was more than equal to the powermatic.i have used deltas before with the unifence and the bisemeyer. i prefered the bisemeyer because of the ability to use quickly on either side of the blade. i actually feel that the saw stop fence is equal or better than the bisemeyer but i rate the unifence the strongest. the table top was exceptional flat. by far the best looking saw(my opinion).i love this sawsquality.you may be tired of hearing the word "saw stop" but my grandfather is missing two fingers while using a shop saw(delta 12/14) with the guard and riving knife in place.he used a table saw for at least 45yrs and still works out of his garage building cabinets still today(87 yrs old). His statement was" the extra money will be long forgotten unless you have two less fingers to remind you".jeff your right blade guards have gotten better but if you buy all the good safety equipment and dust collection systems that go with the powermatics the price gets even closer to the saw stop.    Clay

2. 
   edsea | Mar 09, 2007 06:16pm | #18

   Thanks to all for your info, I did contact Sawstop on where the saw was manufactured and got this reply:

   "Thank you for contacting Sawstop. In response to your request, the electronics are made here in the <!----><!---->United States<!----> and the saw and accessories are made in <!----><!---->Taiwan<!----><!---->.  The saws are shipped from the manufacturer to us directly in <!----><!---->Oregon<!----><!----> and then out to our dealers from here."

   I think competition (with us placing much value on lower prices) will soon have all saws manufactured offshore -- if they are not already.  The key is how the parent company manages quality. There has been good press on the quality of Sawstop but it would be interesting to know what perecentage of customers had problems --assuming they were even able to detect issues such as table flatness, etc. etc.  Does anyone know how many saw injuries are due to being cut by the blade as opposed to kickback etc.?       Ed 

1. 
   forestgirl | Mar 09, 2007 08:26pm | #19

   "Does anyone know how many saw injuries are due to being cut by the blade as opposed to kickback etc.?"  Number of injuries is only a small part of the story -- the severity of the injury is key.  Kickback could do anything from bruise, to break a bone, to puncture.  Injury involving the spinning blade is most likely to result in one or more missing digits, or in the worst nightmare all or most of a hand.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

   Edited 3/9/2007 12:28 pm by forestgirl

1. 
   edsea | Mar 09, 2007 10:46pm | #20

   "Number of injuries is only a small part of the story -- the severity of the injury is key.  Kickback could do anything from bruise, to break a bone, to puncture.  Injury involving the spinning blade is most likely to result in one or more missing digits, or in the worst nightmare all or most of a hand. "

   I agree, however from what I have heard and read (I have only been using a 50 yr old 8" Craftsman table saw so I do not have experience with these larger powerful saws) kickback is an event and the riving knife on the Sawstop is a key safety item as is the blade stop mechanism. I realize proper technique is probably the best safety feature but the riving knife seems like a good thing to have -- I don't see them advertised on many of the saw options out there for some reason?? Are they useful or just another gimmick? 

1. 
   JohnWW | Mar 09, 2007 11:15pm | #21

   Riving knives are definitely not a gimmick, all European saws have them as do some industrial size American made saws, and they definitely reduce the chance of a kick back. 

   A saw has to be designed from the ground up to mount a riving knife.  The saw makers for the smaller machines sold in the U.S. have apparently never felt, at least until recently, a need to spend the money to re-engineer their out of date designs to accomodate a riving knife.

   John W.

2. 
   eddiefromAustralia | Mar 10, 2007 03:05am | #22

   Ed,using a saw without a riving knife here is a dismissable offense.They've been around since god-knows-when - at least about 1910.At a guess, they didn't make it onto US saws as they're a more expensive casting and another item to fit and maintain/adjust.What they do is help prevent a board from being nudged onto the blade, but, more importantly, prevent stresses in a board from closing up the kerf and having the board grab the blade mid cut.It still happens, even with a riving knife, but not as much.They are not the US splitter, but something that follows the blade and is no more than 1/2" from the blade, I prefer less, like about 3/16" gap between the teeth and the riving knife.CHeers,eddie

3. 
   forestgirl | Mar 10, 2007 04:46am | #23

   "I don't see them advertised on many of the saw options out there for some reason??"  The reason being our complacent (read: lazy) manufacturers.  They are beginning to get the drift though.  The new Powermatic PM2000 comes with a riving knife.  Rumor has it Steel City will be changing at least some of their saws over to an RK instead of a splitter.  Seems like I heard about a Grizzly either existant or planned. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

4. 
   tufenhundel | Mar 10, 2007 07:03am | #25

   I always try to stay out of Sawstop debates. But to add to what Forestgirl said, and mainly because few people realize it: A true riving knife sits close to the rear of the blade and slightly below the top of the blade. This offers the most protection. It also follows the blade throughout its whole up/down adjustment. On all Delta/PW clones, the arbor rotates as you bring the blade up/down. Think about it, if a riving knife were attached this closely to the blade, it would rise above the top of the blade as you lower it due to the rotation of the arbor. This would definitely result in an unsatisfactory cut.This is why Delta/PW saws do not have a true riving knife. On the Sawstop, the arbor assembly moves in a linear fashion as you adjust the cutting height. The riving knife offers full protection and stays with the blade regardless of the cutting height.Just another reason to get this saw if you can afford it.

5. 
   edsea | Mar 10, 2007 06:05pm | #26

   Interesting, it sounds like the Sawstop product is a leader in addition to the blade stop technology.  What about the riving knife on the Powermatic 2000, is that a true riving knife per your definition?   Thanks for the insight.     Ed

6. 
   tufenhundel | Mar 10, 2007 07:21pm | #27

   I recall the PM2000 advertise a riving knife, but on a quick look at the store, the arbor assembly is the same as the prior models. I don't recall seeing the knife in place...must've been removed. So I don't see how it can be.

7. 
   JohnWW | Mar 11, 2007 03:20am | #29

   The PM 2000 is a completely different saw from the PM 66 and it does have a true riving knife.  The arbor assembly is distinctly different from the 66.

   John W.

8. 
   tufenhundel | Mar 11, 2007 04:59pm | #32

   It was very possible that I didn't see the PM2000, but something else. I recall seeing integrated casters, and the basic rotating arbor assembly and thought "PM2000". I was on my way to getting lumber, so I never bothered to ask.I know the arbor assembly on the Sawstop is massive to the point of needing gas pistons to aid in its movement. I didn't see anything like that on the PM I saw.

9. 
   JohnWW | Mar 11, 2007 06:51pm | #33

   If it had the integrated casters it was a PM 2000. 

   PM decided to still pivot the arbor on a single point, like the PM 66, but they added a linkage for the riving knife mount that engages the arbor assembly and follows it closely.  I haven't had a chance to get inside of a PM 2000 to figure out the mechanics, which seem more complicated than a Sawstop, for the riving knife set up, but the knife is a true riving knife that stays right with the blade in all positions.

   John W.  

3. 
   UnclePablo | Mar 11, 2007 12:57am | #28

   These saws are equipped with a low profile, clear plastic blade cover and splitter with anti kick back pawls. This part rides up and down with the blade at close proximity exactly as the riving knife does. When necessary to do rip cuts that are under about 3/4" wide or cuts that aren't through cuts this guard assembly is swapped out for a riving knife that looks like a sharks fin. The riving knife has no cover over the blade and offers only kick back protection should the stock being fed walk away from the rip fence.

   We use the blade cover/splitter 90% of the time. Riving knife as second or supplemental protection. It is an either, or ; or not at all set-up. These parts change out in seconds.

   -Paul

1. 
   forestgirl | Mar 11, 2007 07:13am | #30

   By "these saws" are you referring to the SawStop or the PM2000?? or both?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

1. 
   UnclePablo | Mar 11, 2007 03:10pm | #31

   OOPS!! Sorry I wasn't more clear. The SawStop.

   -Paul