Sawstop–sour grape or logic?
Highdesertwoodworker
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
Is the Sawstop over-priced or over-hyped?
Is my Delta Unisaw much inferior? I doubt it. How is the riving knife much better than the splitter on my Unisaw?
Other miscellaneous advantages of the Sawstop are significant, like better finish and better dust collection, but I can buy a used 2-3 hp dust collector for $100-200. The dust collection in my Unisaw is quite good when the suction is great.
Replies
The SS riving knife sits at the same height as the blade, is as thick as the blade, and can be used for non-through cuts. The real beauty (not counting the flesh tech) is that the swap from blade guard to riving knife takes literally seconds and requires no tools. This means I always use one or the other. Always.
Yes, but I think these advantages are small.
However, I think the advantage of a splitter/rizing knife being closer to the blade is real; this I admit. Is this what you mean by as the same level of the blade?
But the splitter being the same thickness of the kerf is not a good idea. The splitter really should be thinner than the kerf but slanted in a way that allows more assured entry (of the work) and the splitter causing the work to hug the fence.
Moreover, (for my left-tilt saw at least, don't know if it matters), the ideal width of the splitter may not depend on the width of the kerf, just thinner. On my left tilt saw, the blade is always left-justified, and so is the splitter.
Can you really leave the riving knife as it is the same as ripping when you are dadoing, say? How? Almost magical. What is meant by not having to remove it? Still have to lower it I suppose. Small difference. Removing the splitter is 5 second operation for my Unisaw. I use an H shape splitter, so the screw does not have to be removed, just loosened. The splitter has no function in non-thru cuts, of course.
I should have been clearer: The riving knife is about as thick as the blade body, not the kerf..there is clearance. The riving knife is mounted on the same assembly as the blade and never changes height in relation to the blade. Any "slanting" around a tablesaw blade is just something bent or not aligned properly and asking for trouble IMHO. SS has tonnage of videos, just go have a look.
If you consider a safety advantage to be "small" I have no real reply. Just enjoy your Unisaw, and be as careful and as safe as you can.
I could repeat my comment left in the previous question. Take the advice left here with a grain of salt, especially with technical or safety related questions. Get the real facts, not someone's incorrect opinion of what a splitter or riving knife is.
I don't think the SawStop is either over-priced or over-hyped. I have decades-old woodworker friends who have been knicked by the blade. It is not a pretty sight to be there holding their maimed hands, drenched in their blood, waiting for the ambulance to arrive. The same day my friend got out of the hospital, he bought the same model SawStop I have.
I see a lot of reckless people using the old design. Many do not appreciate the inherent danger of ripping with the TS; and that the thicker the wood and narrower the side that is supposed to hug the fence, the greater the danger and the more violent the kickback can be.
For those who respect danger and take proper precautions, they have been ripping safely for decades with the old design.
Except for large thin sheet products, always have vertical holddown on the outfeed, lateral and vertical holddown force on the infeed, and a good splitter application. Cautious and respectful people have been ripping safely with the old design for decades, I tend to think.
The most violent kickback (or just kickback per se depending on definition) is the result of the work lifting. Prevent lifting on the outfeed and infeed sides and you will not have violent kickback. In the TS, the spin of the blade is conducive to the work being lifted on the outfeed, unlike for the RAS.
Highdesertwoodworker, I have come to the conclusion that you are either a troll, or one of the most obtuse people on the internet.
First, you are too serious. I did hint at the possibility of my possible sour-grape.
Second, you are irrational. You should discuss the merits or lack of of point of other posters instead of making this attack on a person.
I made my points rationally. Ripping on a TS is inherently dangerous. Those who understand this and think about the operations carefully with wisdom is better able to establish precautions to make ripping in the TS safe.
I am also convinced that a wood worker can be either ignorant or insensitized due to repeated uses; indifference is hence created.
John_C2, as my Dad is fond of saying: Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and it annoys the pig.
I sense that there are a certain type of people who are very loyal to a certain brand or concept. There is also a class of people would feel smug about a choice they made on a certain brand to the point of being obsequious to it.
As a degreed engineer, I am almost never like either. I always have the tendency to analyse. I tend to list the merits or alleged merits and rank them by necessity and availability and practicality of alternatives.
People regardless should have some basic courtesy, may I add.
This is starting to look like the same discussion forums I saw when I was deciding whether or not to buy a SS 8 or 9 years ago. Lots of highDesert people saying just be careful and you’ll be fine. Glad you enjoy your own equipment, not going to try to convince you otherwise. As a “degreed engineer” the SS safety mechanisms should be incorporated in your analysis re: Factor of Safety calculations. I’ll be interested in that sort of factual post. For any readers interested in SS I’ll also throw in that it is easily the best experience for assembling a new machine. Labelled parts, great guide, accurate machining. About a year or two ago the pedal for the mobile base broke but was cheap to replace, otherwise it has been a reliable solid saw, the 1.75 hp version.
Whatever you decide to buy I urge you to appreciate that ripping with the TS is inherently a dangerous operation when there are not enough precautions; I believe it is definitely the most dangerous of all wood working operations. That with enough precaution it is safe is true, but do not let this be the focus.
The truth is also that a manufacturer is unlikely to empathize to you that its product is dangerous and only somewhat safer due to its innovations.
It is best to understand why ripping with the TS is inherently dangerous: the circular saw blade is a two dimension cutting tool (the band saw blade is close to a one dimension cutting tool) and has its front and back teeth. Moreover, the way it spins gives chance of the work being jammed resulting in ejection or kickback, and the work is not supported against the direction of cut (as in a band saw table).
Full disclosure: I work part time for Woodcraft. We sell SawStops about 10-1 over other table saws. We don't carry Delta, and I'm not sure if they are still producing Unisaws. We do carry Powermatic, and have a PM2000 sitting on the floor next to a SawStop Professional 3hp. The Powermatice is beefier with more cast iron, but it costs MORE than the SS. I personally own a SS Professional 3hp, and love it. The fit and finish is great. Unisaw, Powermatic, Jet are all great saws. The SS is a great saw too and it will let me keep my fingers if I ever have an accident.
Most induction motor machines are very durable so I never buy anything new or by retail. I only buy from private parties.
I bought my very good condition then 8 year-old Delta Unisaw 12 years ago for $800. It is 3hp, left-tilt. It came with a Tenryu Gold Medal blade, which I later found out to be very good. A Delta tenoning jig and a Delta mobile base. 50 inch commercial Beis fence.
Now that I am older and still have all my fingers, I wish that the fence is shorter, as I no longer have the fitness to haul 4x8 sheet goods onto a saw. I now always cut the sheet down to smaller sizes with a circular saw. The longer length of the fence itself is always a plus.
There is one significant advantage that in my opinion outweighs any other. That being the fact that you can't cut your hand on the Sawstop. No matter how careful one is there is always the possibility of cutting a finger, and I would rather not take that chance. I have been working with wood for many years and have seen a couple other fine craftsmen friends who have lost part of a finger or worse. I was lucky, and I say lucky because no matter how careful one is there is always the possibility. Not with the Sawstop though and I found out about a year after I got the saw. Cutting some small bead stop (over a thousand feet of it for a huge cabinet job on a 15,000 sq ft house) I ran my index finger into the blade. The action of the "stop" was beyond impressive as before I even realized that I had run my finger into the blade I heard a thunk and total quiet except for the dust collector. Blade gone, no blood. I lost a tiny bit of skin, but not enough to even bleed. Just that mistake immediately paid for the saw, the new cartridge, and the new blade. So, any minor complaint one might have of the Sawstop is truly minor when talking about losing use of a finger or worse.
I have looked at several SawStop saws and don't think they are overpriced. Nor do I think they are essential for careful woodworkers. Keep in mind that with the SawStop you are betting your fingers that the instant blade stop will never, ever, fail. There are not many complex mechanical devices about which this is infallibly true. Perhaps the SawStop is one of them, but extensive long-term third-party research is currently not published. I chose my new version Delta Unisaw because both the blade lift and the blade tilt controls are up front where they are easy to use. The blade retention nut is easy to remove without falling into the dust chute and the wide kerf plate opening is wide enough to keep me from nicking my hand on the blade. I use the safety features consistently for all cuts where their use is feasible and find them easy to put on and off for blade changes. Your needs and wishes for a table saw may be very different from mine. Buy to meet your wishes and needs. One plus for the SawStop is that they make an extensive array of table saw sizes, power, and in both single and three phase.
I too own a Sawstop, purchased five years ago. I was introduced to the saw slightly earlier Phil Lowe's shop at the Furniture Inst. of Massachusetts. It has saved many fingers and the palm of a hand.
When I set up my shop, I found that a quality, powerful table saw cost around $3,000. There was little difference in price between all the high end saws, which made the decision for me a no brainer.
A friend said the fit and finish on the Delta are better and that he is careful and never makes mistakes. But I have set off the SS four times (embarrassed) by hitting it with a piece of metal (the miter gauge and a ruler) and was impressed by the action. I have yet to save a body part but it is comforting to know.
Keep in mind that your hand can be drawn into the blade by a kickback event, especially when a piece gets rotated into the blade. You have a lot of pressure on that piece, which draws your hand with it into the blade.
Good luck with that on a Unisaw or a Powermatic or jet.
I agree with McConoughey. I have a General 350 without a riving knife. I have a splitter, overarm blade guard, and the yellow 45 degree ratcheting wheels on my rip fence that hold the workpiece down to the table and also to the rip fence. Further, I use push sticks at ALL times, and I NEVER have my hands close to or past the blade when ripping. When crosscutting, my hands are also well away from the blade and kickbacks don't occur when crosscutting anyway. Even if there was a kickback when ripping, I can't foresee any way that my fingers could be cut.
Having said that, I would strongly consider the SS if I was in the market for a saw, or if I was buying one for my son. Fortunately, my General 350 will outlast me.
When your mother told you to "drive carefully", what does she mean? It means I love you, nothing more.
I am not just saying rip "carefully" and you will be fine.
I am saying to understand the different categories of danger in ripping with a TS and wisely implement effective countermeasure by means and tools whose functionality you have spent the effort to know well.
What is ejection, kickback, climbing? Do you fully understand? These are very different dangers.
What are the key features of the featherbroad? It is uni-directional and can limit ejection. It can be applied vertically and laterally to eliminate ejection when the application is robust.
I suppose you use more than one blade and blades of different body thickness.
This really is what I am saying as well. That is the splitter has to be thinner than the kerf. You can have different splitter for different blade, or at least one for thin kerf and one for full kerf.
Kickbacks are entirely preventable. Just have robust vertical hold down, at least on the outfeed, better on both outfeed and infeed.
Holding onto the steering wheel of a car can prevent collision when the road is curved, just do it, and do not yearn for autonomous driving for private cars.
In all demonstrations of kickbacks, the work is lifted on the rear. I have never seen demonstration a of kickback when vertical hold down on the outfeed has been applied. I believe if there is no lifting kickback is impossible. Ejection or climbing can still happen, but not kickback.
The band saw is also very dangerous in terms of being cut by the blade, but the band saw is very much safer than the TS.
Somewhere between 30,000-60,000 tablesaw accidents annually in the United States alone. And that’s just the ones who went to the emergency room. 3000+ of those resulted in some kind of amputation. Don’t trust me, ask Dr. Google.
Most of those people were “being careful.“ They were distracted for just the microsecond that it took to get badly hurt. So decide how much your fingers are worth to you and then go buy whatever saw you like.
Just sayin......
The answer is simple. My sawstop has saved a finger. I run a small craft business and I meet hundreds of woodworkers at craft fairs. They fall into three groups. Sawstop owners, people who believe that they are so skilled that they will never mess up, and people with missing fingers.
There are 2 basic categories of table saws......Sawstop saws and unsafe saws.
I don't really have sawstop TS in the budget now. When I do upgrade my saw I will think long and hard about a sawstop. My deductible is over $3000 which any hand surgery would consume. Then there is that "now that I have cut my hand I can justify a sawstop". I just hope my fingers last longer than my current table saw.
I suspect that once the SawStop patents expire that all major brands will offer this technology on their saws. Then I expect SawStop price point will reflect what other manufacturer's are offering in terms of features and build quality.
As to is it worth it, if I were buying a saw, I would want the technology to prevent me from cutting myself seriously. I keep waiting to see it in bandsaws.
Would like to chime in and say that the saw stop design is very robust and has a very low chance of failing.
Hmm..
I have worked in emergency departments and A&M centres for many years - for over 3 years it was my only job. I have never once, not ever seen a tablesaw injury of any kind. Skilsaw, nailgun, reciprosaw, hand saw, yes, and don't even go there with angle grinders. Table saws, not so much.
The reason is that the chances of being hurt are very small per cut, and most people take care to avoid injury. SS of course means people don't think they have to think about safety, so will perhaps take more risks (cutting dowels for instance was mentioned earlier)
As I understand it, kickback is all but impossible with a riving knife as kickback can only occur when an offcut is touching the rising part of the blade (It could occur with a piece that is both shorter than the length of exposed blade at the table top AND constrained against the fence or a featherboard) Adding a blade guard (which usually attaches to a riving knife) provides added protection as were any pieces to rise up, most of the momentum will go into the guard, and the piece will fly off away from the user.
Splitters can be just as effective as a riving knife but suffer from some disadvantages - you need to change them for deeper or shallower cuts, they usually have to be removed for non-through work and the minimum safe workpiece length for constrained cuts is the front of the blade to the thickest part of the splitter.
The big issue I take with the op is the suggestion that you can be safe with all the extra hold-downs. Yes you can. You can also drive no faster than 20mph. Both will enhance your personal safety. The problem with both is that when you decide "oh stff it..." and just go for it without the extras or at higher speed on the road, you are unprepared and the techniques you learned with the safer approach may not serve as well without it, or at higher speeds. Further, if safety is easy, you are more likely to do it. This is why most saws for the Euro market cannot take a dado head. No dado head - use a router - safer though far less convenient and requiring more skill.
So is SS over-priced or over-hyped? No to both questions.
I was in the market for a new saw - an upgrade to my venerable DeWalt flipover saw, which is getting a bit loose in the bearings for the finer work I now want to do. I was going to buy a SS and asked for advice on whether the trunnions in the professional would last.
In the end, I spent MORE, not less, buying a proper Euro Slider (Thanks John_C2!) rather than the SS. The key for me in the end was quality, and I was persuaded that the safety would be enhanced by the mechanism to the point where the chances of blade contact would be close enough to zero as to make no difference.
The SS is undoubtedly a beautifully made saw and such quality costs money - most of the cost is in the build not the brake as SS don't do cheap saws. Even so, I paid over 30% more for a saw without the brake mechanism and do not regret the decision (yet!) and as a result, I don't need to take the extra precautions suggested by the OP. Nonetheless, had I been buying a cabinet saw, even with my experience that they cause very few injuries per year of use, I would have bought the SS as the additional safety feature would have been worth the extra cash.
So @highdesertwoodworker, you are correct - you can be very safe with an old saw. It's just easier to be very safe with a sawstop. Add in the build quality and the value proposition is there if you can afford it. Don't feel bad if you can't.
"Hmm..
I have worked in emergency departments ....... I have never once, not ever seen a tablesaw injury of any kind. "
As of 2018 there were over 5,025 Emergency Departments in the US. These are usually part of a hospital and open 24 hours. There are another 7,100 Urgent Care Centers, many open for more than one shift. These represent a minimum of 12,000 8 hour shifts daily, 84,000 shifts/week. Some will see much more than the average number of ts accidents, some none. It should surprise no one that a single emergency provider did not see a particular type of injury.
FWW magazine did a study or rather published a study on which power tool was responsible for the most egregious personal injuries. This was back in the day when FWW was still in the black and white format I believe.
If memory serves me correctly,I believe it was the Radial Arm Saw that was determined to be the most dangerous. Probably because of it's multiple set up possibilities.
Just an fyi.
@woodshedding is quite correct - the reason you don't see many injuries is that they are relatively unlikely to occur in any given shift.
I also worked in orthopaedics (which received hand injuries in the days before plastics taking it over) for a year and saw none there either, probably for the same reason.
The fact of the matter is that the risk of injury from any given cut on a table saw is very small.
IN 2007-8, there was a survey of injuries in the USA which suggested on extrapolated data that there are 40,000 tablesaw injuries per year in the USA. This was from a very limited amount of data in a few ERs and is really pretty poor information. Nonetheless, it is the data we have.
It also needs to be put in some context - the risk of driving is higher - there are 1000 times more people injured driving annually in the USA (and 30 times more deaths than tablesaw injuries...) I don't know how many people use tablesaws, but I'd guess there is a lot more than one table saw per 1000 people, so that being correct, table saws are way safer than driving.
78% of all saw related injuries are due to stationary saws.
88% of those are due to contacting the blade
57% of those are due to blade contact above the cutting surface (what were the others doing??)
So: of all saw injuries, 57% of 88% of 78% are in the sawstop-preventable bracket. This is about half of all tablesaw injuries. The other half would happen anyway.
Interestingly, the mean age of the operator of the saw was 55 years. 97% male.
Only half of the saws in use at the time of injury had a splitter or riving knife (half and half on this) In 75% of injuries, the blade guard had been removed, in 20% the saw never had a guard, in 5% it was broken.
Kickback was considered to be the cause of 40% of injuries, and in most of those cases, the kickback was seen as the reason for blade contact (93.7%)
3.6% of injuries involved a dado set.
67% of injuries were in cabinet saws.
The saw was in the home in 80% of cases and about 80% had been purchased new.
In terms of relevance to SS use, the overwhelming majority of these injuries would not have occurred had the blade guards and riving knife or properly sized splitter being in use at the time.
Almost all of the work being done at the time of injury was a simple crosscut or rip in which the blade guards could easily have been used. In New Zealand, Worksafe estimate that about 80% of injuries are the result of not using guards or push-sticks.
Just for fun, we can run the percentages further:
40,000 tablesaw injuries
26,800 cabinet saw injuries
23,584 injuries due to blade contact
22,734 injuries not due to a dado set (these are not compatible with SS cartridge)
12,958 injuries above the cutting surface
So we are looking at about 13,000 injuries in the SS preventable category. This is about 32% of injuries.
IF you use the guards and riving knife AND a pushstick, this drops down to 20% or 2600 injuries. 10% of these are amputations. Gulp.
So, with 260 amputations per year potentially in the only-sawstop-preventable category, the case for all new cabinet saws having this technology is pretty strong. To return to our driving comparison, it's probably the difference between driving a 1970s sedan and a modern SUV - both will work, but you do need to be a lot more careful in the older car.
Key high-risk areas from the survey were:
1. Cutting a small piece of stock without a push stick.
2. Gloves getting caught in the blade
3. Inattention
4. Removing blade guards
5. Not using riving knife or splitter
Readers may find the Worksafe hazard mitigation sheet interesting:
https://worksafe.govt.nz/topic-and-industry/machinery/saws-and-shears/circular-saw-benches/
https://www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/statsaws.pdf
These sawstop discussions are ridiculous. The anti sawstop people are the same people who were against seatbelts and airbags. In the latest FWW shop tour, Becksvoort described an incident where he would have lost a finger if it wasn’t for his sawstop. Do you think you are safer than him? Accidents happen. I am a safe driver but I am quite happy that my car will try to keep me alive with its many safety restraints and hardware. And yes I own a SS. It is equivalent to a powermatic in build and quality.
The entry price for a SS saw is too high for me, and that's the bottom line. Growing up on a farm in the 70s, I've seen plenty of dangerous situations, and I know I've done my fair share of dangerous workplace things. Hobby-place things as well. Even in flying, where there is lots of training and person-to-person review (flight reviews).
An air bag won't keep you out of an accident, but it can help you survive one. Same idea with a SS brake. I don't have one, wouldn't mind having one, but it comes back to a hobbyist not being able to acquire the purchase price of a SS for occasional use. Ergo, I have to mentally prepare to use the saw and always see a "red zone" around my TS blade. I've had one kickback, a piece of MDF, on my previous saw. I wasn't using a riving knife and it kicked it back into my stomach with amazing force.
I call those "cheap lessons." Once something bites you, it raises your awareness of the possibility, how quickly it can happen and without warning. Had I been using the proper saw setup, I believe this could have been avoided. But if we're honest about it, we don't 100% always use proper technique now do we?
I've seen the SS floor models and they appear to be a good quality saw. I'd have one if I could afford it, but life's expenses get in the way, even though I've spent thousands on all my woodworking hobby tools.
As a kid in the 70s I made do with what we had. I still do the same today. We make risk assessments and try to mitigate those risks. C'est la vie.
With the many debates in the forums over saw stop I can't seem to get past that the cost of the injury will exceed the cost of the SS. The problem is that I have three options right now. 1) Actually try to use my blade guard which I have never even put over the blade yet. 2) buy a jobsite SS now because I often need to take it outside for longer cuts. I would need to sell it if I get a bigger shop. 3) wait until I resolve my shop space limitations to buy a larger SS saw.
I think I will attempt to use the blade guard first and re-evaluate.
Is it possible...I mean, is it even in the realm of possibilities that we may be overthinking this issue just a little too much??????
Holy Sh*t!!!
I’m in the camp of affordability. If I had the coin, I’d have a SS. As it is, I could have a very nice used Unisaw and well equipped hobby shop or I could have a SawStop.
If I were a full-time Woodsmith, I’d have a SS. Perhaps some day I’ll be able to upgrade.
The most stunning thing about this thread is that the initial post was a double negative "question". Might as well have asked "Does Sawstop suck, or does it suck big time?" Well, another layer of low cost (relatively) safety does not.
I really think that when the patent exclusions expire ALL saws in this country will have the tech and the courts will be clogged with willful negligecne suits.
Kind of sad for the industry to have taken a stand against safety like it has. SS tried to license to EVERYONE before going into manufacturing. In effect they all said the safety was too expensive, and now their lunch is being eaten.
@_MJ_ too true.
Would be nice to have an 'upvote' feature on this forum...
The original question wasn't necessarily intended to be a totally negative one, since being overpriced or overhyped aren't the same thing. If one asked if they were somewhat overpriced or very overpriced, that would be phrased negatively. One could have answered the original question "neither overpriced nor overhyped", "overpriced but not overhyped", etc.
Also, businesses have every right to make their own decisions whether or not to offer product features (safety or otherwise) unless mandated by law to incorporate certain features. Maybe SS was asking too much for the SS technology, in their minds. If the technology warranted it, why didn't the CPSC try to get it passed into law, like they have for some (but not all) automotive safety devices? Not every auto company has incorporated every single technically possible safety feature, regardless of cost, and that's their right not to. It's called a free market.
I happen to think that the 45 degree ratcheting yellow wheels I have mounted to my General 350 table saw are a great safety feature during ripping, and I'm sure they cost less than $40. Should these have been mandated to be on every saw? (I believe I once read that all government owned tablesaws did require them to be added at one time). Does the fact that they are only available aftermarket mean that those nasty OEM tool manufacturers don't care about my safety?
If I were in the market for a new saw, I'd very strongly consider the SS, as long as it was also a well made saw and not just an average saw with a special built-in safety feature. But if money was tight, I might do again what I did many years ago and incorporate other less expensive safety devices and practices. I don't go out of my way to drive the world's safest car, either, I get one that overall is the best value, according to the importance I put on the various other factors in addition to safety.
I’m a SS owner and found that when I was in the market for a new saw, the price was competitive with other saws like Powermatic and Jet. And the quality was first class! Anyone ever try to find a used SS on Craigslist or a garage sale? I’ve never seen one. I wonder why. Maybe because the quality is so good that folks don’t want to upgrade? And maybe also because the users still have all their digits and haven’t had to give up woodworking for a safer hobby post accident. If the quality of the tool was not there, I doubt they would have the market share. But SS married quality with safety and it’s an unbeatable partnership. I personally think the product is underpriced because I would have paid a lot more for it than their competitors pricing.
Overthinking it maybe, it what about bandsaw safety? Routers? Omg routers scare me! My lathe and drill press could hurt me, and I’ve hurt myself on the mortiser bits. My friend just sliced a thumb with a hand chisel. Stitches!
It’s a risky hobby/business. Do your best to mitigate the dangers.
"ChipsSawdust" Spot on. Reminds me of an allegory from Milton Friedman: GM and Ford could make an automobile tomorrow that would reduce car fatalities to zero.
The problem of course is that no one could afford such a car.
It's called life folks. In woodworking you make what you think are the right decisions with regard to set up and implementation than give some thought to the possible hazards that might be associated with it.
Proceed.
As my beloved journeyman explained to me once during my apprenticeship. "Never fear the tablesaw...but give it the respect it deserves and you'll be just fine."
One final point - That same journeyman pointed out that the worst thing that ever happened in the field of woodworking was the mass marketing of power tools; routers, tablesaws, jointers etc.
In effect putting dangerous tools into the hands of people who had zero experience/training and who thought cabinetmaking might be a nice hobby to get into. Sorry if this comes off as being elitist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4&t=135s
watch this video - than tell me you wouldn't kick this guy out of your shop if he ever pulled a stunt like this. The worse part? Commenters praising him for performing a public service. I can only shake my head.
Chip sawdust said do the best to mitigate the dangers. Yes, and that might include paying an extra couple dollars for a safer saw, given roughly equivalent quality of cabinet saws. Other posters talk about cost...if that’s a driver, you can get a little portable saw at a box store for not much at all.
I wonder do insurance companies charge commercial cabinet shops more if they don't have a SS (as opposed to another brand) for their employees' use?
Oh, for cryin' out loud, guys. Get back to work.
Ha, Ha , Ha
So I got my Unisaw 30 years ago. The first thing I did was remove all the guards. I think the guards were deliberately designed them to annoy the operator.
I have aged and finally come to my senses. I bought the Shark aftermarket guard. It is wonderful. I still toy with replacing my Unisaw with a SS but I admit I am quite emotionally attached to it.
I have written a couple of authors of FWW articles recounting their tablesaw injuries. Invariably, they admit to having removed their guards. I am of the opinion, the lack of adequate guards is usually associated with table saw injuries. Clearly injuries are possible with guards in place, but the odds are signicantly reduced with a blade guard.
I never use my tablesaw without a good deal of trepidation. I think this accounts for the retention of all my digits. Should I ever injure one, I will regret not moving to a SS
Just finished assembling a SS professional cabinet saw - a lot of pleasure to be had from just assembling this beautifully built machine. As only a serious hobbyist I struggled for months over the cost etc. but am very pleased I went for the SS - using a well built piece of kit is similar to the pleasure of using a high quality hand plane. The safety element was an added bonus but not the key decider. I told my wife it was cheaper than a Porsche!
As of the moment, there are 19 SawStop table saws of various models for sale on EBay. Shoppers looking for a SawStop might wish to browse there.
"That being the fact that you can't cut your hand on the Sawstop." -woodmoto
Let's be factual. That statement is most definitely not true. And I'm not talking about a small nick either; it's definitely possible to get a fairly major injury.
For a 10" blade at 4,000 RPM, the rim of the blade will travel just over 2 inches (2.09 inches to be exact) during the 5 milliseconds it takes the SawStop mechanism to activate. During that 5 milliseconds, on a 60-tooth crosscut blade, 4 teeth of the saw blade will contact your hand at 4,000 RPM speed ( ~119 MPH ) at the edge of the blade. You can get a significant injury from that, and people have, including one I saw on YouTube that got a 3/16 deep! cut in his thumb, about one inch long with blood everywhere (yes from a SawStop).
That said, the injury was most certainly much less than what he would have received had he not had the blade brake mechanism. The SawStop mechanism is much safer, but not perfect and you still need to take precautions.
In that same 5 milliseconds, at a reasonable feed rate of say 1.5 inches per second, how far will your hand move towards the blade? About three ten-thousandths of an inch (if I did the math right) from contact to activation, at which point the blade moves away from the operator.
Now I did not see the video, but I HAVE activated my sawstop. To me, the operator must have been off the reservation with whatever he was attempting..perhaps removed his riving knife or had the saw in bypass mode would be my guess.
I wonder what would happen if you hit the blade of the sawstop with a hotdog swung like a baseball bat. I doubt you could cut all the way through the dog that way.
I have a delta unisaw with a shark guard riving knife on it and really like this saw an awful lot and although I have not used a Sawstop I think my saw is great and will not be changing any time soon.
If money was no object I would buy a SS to replace my unisaw. But at this point I have two options use my current saw of leave the hobby.
But this is the case for many things. My SUV and May truck are both old. They don’t have all the new fancy protective features available today. Lane sensors detectors for impact automatic stopping. And about 500 airbags. Does this make them safer then my truck? Yes. But being as I can’t afford 50g for a new fully loaded truck I guess I will have to take my chances,
That being said the single worse table saw Injury related I personally am aware of was one that a SS would not have prevented. A friend of mine was cutting a block of hard wood that kicked back and the sharp edge of the wood almost took off his finger. He lost a HUGE percentage of his blood. But NEVER made contact with the blade.
as for spitters of riving knifes they are good but what happens if you get a narrow kurf blade?
So yes a SS would be nice but they have a cost. And while it is an interesting design from an engineering point of view let’s not put it on a pedestal.
As for the states listed above I would like to see how they were determined.
Also keep in mind that if the inventor of SS was as concerned as they sometimes are represented they could release the patents. I know of a couple of companies that have in their contracts that any safety invention will NOT have the patent enforced.
Please note I am not suggesting that SS should do that. I am just pointing out that the inventor is interested in making money.
Workshop safety has many aspects. One can also increase sawing safety with better lighting, superior after-market table saw accessories, and even with a clean floor to stand on. My immediate plan to sustain a fifty year run of sawing safety is to get some after-market hold down roller devices to put on the fence. Can anyone here comment on personal experience with these?
The TS I have is a European model with an integrated guard & riving knife and a fence that can be reconfigured for thick or thin stock. It also has a sub-fence that can be repositioned on the main fence face so that it ends half way down the blade, preventing workpieces from ever being nipped between the fence and the back of the blade - although the riving knife does most of that prevention.
The fence top and faces have T-slots that allow various things (like that sub-fence) to be attached, including hold down, anywhere along the fence from the front to the back edge of the TS.
I don't have roller device hold downs but rather the spring-armed hold down device originally designed for the Veritas router fence, which was also festooned with T-slots.
https://www.leevalley.com/en-gb/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/safety/featherboards/41798-veritas-work-hold-down
The device rides in the T-slot on top of the TS fence and cantilevers a steel arm out over the workpiece side of the fence that holds a 5" long by 7/8" spring steel arm with a curved end. This can be set out from the fence by zero to several inches and at a height of zero (i.e. down on the TS table) to just over the height of the fence (about 2.5" in my case).
The device has hold down arms that operate both vertically and horizontally. I use only the vertical hold down on the TS as a magnetic feather board does the holding of the workpiece to the fence, which it can do from much farther out from the fence than can the Veritas device.
You can use two of these, one in front of the blade and one behind. But if you have a riving knife and half-length sub-fence, as mine does, the rear hold down would serve no purpose.
The Veritas device works very well indeed, taking only a second or ten to change the position of the hold-down along the fence and the height of the spring arm above the table top as well as outwith the fence, all with one unscrew-move-tighten operation. It's inexpensive as well. :-)
If you're interested I could probably take some photos of mine in operation....
Lataxe
Thank you, Lataxe. I had not known that Lee Valley had that low cost design for sale. I've now ordered it and look forward to using it. Marvin McConoughey
Old thread but still stirs up emotions. Just wanted to point out, futilely, that a riving knife and a splitter are not the same thing.
Just so - those splitters seem extra dangerous in one way as they leave a large gap atween the back of the blade and the splitter for all blade heights except "full" yet (like many a safety aid) perhaps give the user too much confidence that their splitter will totally prevent kick back - which it won't.
A riving knife well-designed follows the blade and is set to be only a couple of millimetres or 1/16" from the back of the blade at all heights and for all sections of the exposed blade. The riving knife will typically also be only 0.2mm thinner than the blade kerf. These features mean it will be near impossible for the back of the blade to catch and lift the workpiece.
Many folk will "work safe" and be very careful, especially with the dangerous saw they know is dangerous because .... But a large proportion of humans are not careful, do wishful thinking and have been captured by the daft notion that because a bad thing hasn't happened yet it never can.
Lataxe
We were thinking of investing in the SawStop technology for our school workshop. The machines on offer were very basic and perhaps not suited as a fixture. Also, one of our suppliers raised concerns about the long-term viability of the brand and the future availability of parts. As you can imagine we only upgrade every 7 years if needed and need serviceable machinery. Can anyone advise me on the longterm prospect of this Technology.
MBE
Although you are responding to a two year old post (consider starting your own thread), I'm going to weigh in anyway.
Specific answer to your question, the technology is solid, here to stay, and likely to spread to other machines. SawStop was acquired by Festool a couple of years ago. The blade stopping technology has already begun to spread to other tools in Europe. It is only a matter of time until jointers, routers, drill presses and really anything with a spinning cutter incorporates the technology. IMHO the more widespread the tech, the cheaper it will become and eventually the consumer products boys will start requiring it - just like they did for splitters or riving knives.
They've been around for 21 years. They've gotten more popular each year. I don't see them going anywhere.
Added safety is worth considering in every life. That can be achieved in many ways: newer vehicles with better safety, better anti-skid entry mats to one's dwelling, stopping bad habits like obesity and smoking, etc. The SawStop safety technology may be worth considering along with all other options to improve one's safety. That said, time is likely to bring competing technologies with possible superior outcomes, lower costs, or both. Informed decision making would be easier if SawStop were to release full data on SawStop major failures, SawStop-related minor injuries and, of course, the number of SawStop successful interventions per thousand hours of table saw usage.
Saws are dangerous. Anyone who dispute this is simply an idiot.
I've worked for over 30 years in an industrial setting. From machining precision aerospace parts, to steel rule dies to injection molds to to locomotive fabrication.
One can dispute to statistics and marketing hype till the cows come home but in the end it comes down to the operator understanding the physics of the machine as it relates to the operation which is being performed.
Nothing is as nasty as seeing an operator get their hand caught in a punch-press, or seeing someone get their finger ripped off by a 14" thickness planer. Table saw injuries pale in comparison!! Equating a Saw-Stop mechanism to seat belts in a car is a fairly specious argument.
Now, note that I drive a vehicle with 7 airbags so take that into account ...
There is no substitute for a clear understanding of the physics of safe work practices. Knowing what causes kickback, safe fixturing and knowing how to stay out of the way of both the blade and the work-piece will never be replaced by any mass manufactured safety gimmick. IMHO the sawstop stats are influenced by their marketing department , not general /industrial Safety folks.
Here are some references for uyour readng pleasure:
Would I trade the $80 cost of a SS brake replacement for one of my fingers? Clearly not! Do I feel that the SS is worth the 5K price over my old PM66 ? Probably not as I completely understand the mechanics of working safely
with industrial power tools.
Here are some references for your reading pleasure:
https://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/table-saw-injury-numbers-in-perspective
Lets just note that the PSC's National Electronic Injury Surveillance System (NEISS) reports these numbers:
https://www.cpsc.gov/cgibin/NEISSQuery/Data/Highlights/2020/2020%20NEISS%20Data%20Highlights%20(sex%20and%20age).pdf
Note for all males, POWER HOME WORKSHOP SAWS, ALL are #20 with 78K incidents after Mattresses and Pillows #2 @ 359K, EXERCISE & EQUIPMENT @ 211K and CUTLERY, KNIVES, UNPOWERED @206K
I wont even tell you what #1 was...
BTW, if you are 55-64 your Power tool ranking id #10 @ 16K... still about 25% of BEDS, MATTRESSES, PILLOWS ;)
Just sayin'... As they say in the Automotive business: Your Mileage May Vary...
A fun comparison. I knew there was a reason to avoid exercise.
Of course pretty much everyone interacts with pillows on a daily basis whereas even a very enthusiastic woodworker might not use the table saw every day (I probably use mine every third day on average) so it's of questionable relevance!
You can make the argument as far out there as you want. Are table saws more dangerous than bathtubs? It's all just a bunch of foolish drivel.
The only question is, am I safer using a Sawstop than an equivalent model Grizzly, Jet, or whatever? The answer is yes, absolutely.
There's that $5000 number again!
I suppose I could probably pay $100,000 for a new Ford. But it's not one that people regularly buy.
The Sawstop Professional with 3hp motor and upgraded fence is an even $3,000. A Grizzly with 3hp is $2,400, with a lesser fence. The Sawstop is a better quality saw, no question. And it has the safety feature.
It was a no brainer for me. But the choices are out there for those who want them.
Back to the OP's original question, I just finished installing a 3HP SS in replacement of my 21 year old Jet. I figure going forward into my doddering old age, it was something I had to do.
Safety technology aside, and granted the saw is new, but one thing that impressed me most is the fence.
The dust collection design also looks much better than just a collection cabinet.
If you were buying a new saw, the price differential is well worth the safety feature. The 36" model I got wasn't much more than any other new saw.
While I don't want to restart this back and forth it's important to remember some key points.
SS makes a good saw without considering the flesh-tech.
Saws by themselves are not dangerous, people are.
A SS doesn't make any sawing operation safer, it just stops you just as you've already made a mistake, narrowly avoiding injury.
Buy what you like, personally I would like to see some of the other safety systems that are on European saws come to the states but SS has litigated everyone else out of the market.
Concur. The SawStop is an excellent saw in several respects. It does lack the wider sawblade table top insert that makes blade changing so safe nd free of hand nicks on my new-series Delta table saw. It also lacks the dual up front blade controls that made it possible for me to add a large wood cabinet close to the right side of my Delta saw. I did add the JessEm table saw stock guides that provide better hold down of what I am sawing.
Mr Weber,
You state: "Saws by themselves are not dangerous, people are".
The fact is that some objects are inherently dangerous in that they have the innate capacity to cause damage. This includes bombs and tablesaws. A TS is designed to chew hard wood away at a rapid rate, after all; and will chew away your flesh even quicker if given the chance!
These same objects may do their dangerous thing to anyone or thing near them, including those controlling them poorly but also the innocent bystanders. What if your cat jumps on to the tablesaw or an inept operator causes kickback when his young nephew is in the line of fire, as he observes the inept one's woodworking technique?
Therefore, dangerous things are generally fitted with controls of many kinds that are designed to prevent incorrect and dangerous operations; or to reduce the harm should the danger actually manifest. It's quite difficult, for example, to fire orf a nuclear weapon, requiring a number of deliberate and well-checked steps. Phew!
Whilst nuclear weapons will do more damage than a tablesaw (unless its a Unisaw) the principle remains common to both - if a reasonable accident-prevention control is available, why not fit it? After all, even the very cleverest and careful operators, such as you and I :-) can have a momentary lapse of concentration. Oh yes we can!
The question is, what accident prevention gubbins are "reasonable"? This depends on the degree of risk you're prepared to take.
Some macho-men are willing to take any amount of risk, as it proves they are real men. (Ha! They often become part-men, as a bit or two is sliced off their person). Others need to believe that they are infallible and never make mistakes, so prove this to themselves by developing a disdain for the safety gubbins. Others would rather risk their fingers than the contents of their wallets.
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You also mention that the Sawstop "....doesn't make any sawing operation safer"..... but of course it does, as you yourself state in the very same sentence when you continue, "....it just stops you just as you've already made a mistake, narrowly avoiding injury".
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I don't have one myself, although I drape every other known safety aid on to my European-style TS. If a maker of proper European style slider TS was to offer a sawstop-style blade-brake, though, I would buy one right now. But the Sawstop brand itself doesn't seem otherwise that well designed, compared to a European slider - for the purposes of wood cutting, at least.
Festool are now offering one of their site-saws with the sawstop mech. But that isn't a proper cabinet-making saw either, really. Still, it can't be long before Felder, Scheppach or some other manufacturer offers blade-braked versions of their slider-saws, eh? I'm saving up.
Lataxe
I find the extended length top of the Delta more appealing than anything. More room in front of the blade is almost necessary with modern miter gauges, sleds and fixtures.
EdWeber, I do appreciate the long Delta table top. It makes for a safer beginning to a long cut. I enhanced safety on the back side by installing a roller-top extension table. I try to avoid having any situation where my concentration on safety is diminished.
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