I have an old Delta 10″ right tilt 3 HP saw. Its a good saw set up with extended table 52″ long. I cut my thumb a little over a year ago. Lets just say very bad!
Almost bought a Sawstop back then but didn’t think the saw was tested enough at that time. Now I’m again thinking of buying a Sawstop to help avoid another accident. Well honestly, I’d like to have a new saw as well.
Does anyone own a Sawstop who will give me their thoughts on the cost versus the cost of a new Powermatic 2000? (about $1100 more cost) Does it provide that much more safety? Finally does the saw measure up quality wise to all the good reviews I’m reading?
Replies
You can get an excellent first-hand report on the SawStop from John White ("JWW" here at Knots) who is the shop manager for Fine Woodworking and has been using it for awhile now. I'll see if I can find a link for you.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Do you know how I can contact Jeff Jewitt? I'v looked for an hour trying to find his e-mail address. Thanks
Go to Homestead finishing. That's his place. I recently bought an HVLP ans some flakes from him. He was very helpful at reccomending a solution.
http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/
Thanks very much.
His web site is http://www.homesteadfinishing.com I don't know if there's an email link. If not, go ahead an post something in his finishing forum, he'll see it and answer. [sorry, didn't see the earlier response; installing our new kitchen appliances today! Yipee]
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 11/6/2006 9:02 pm by forestgirl
Here ya go:
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=31213.24
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
woody,
do a search on the forum archives. There have already been many, many, many discussions about the saw, and whether or not it is worth the $
Lee
The question should be, is the pain, agony, and medical costs on your thumb worth the $1100 not to go through again.
Jack
I's think that having cut your thumb once concentrate would your mind so that there is almost no chance to cut it again?
Speaking from experience, an injury from a saw does make you much more vigilant but eventually, after a few years, you start to get less attentive again, it's human nature.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
John,
Would you mind giving your thoughts on the motor on your shop Saw Stop.
I have sold my pm 66 and will be ordering a Saw Stop shortly. I am inclined to go with a 3 hp again.
Your thoughts on the motor specifically would be appreciated.
Thanks very much.
Joe P
Joe,
The new Sawstop has a 3 hp motor, as did the PM 66 it replaces. With both machines the power seemed more than adequate. It is very rare that you would need 5 hp on a saw with a 10" blade.
John W.
The SawStop seems to be an interesting device applied to an outmoded method of handling material.
Standing in front of the machine pushing wood into the blade with one's hands is, in a word, stupid.
Standing in front of the machine pushing wood into the blade with one's hands is, in a word, stupid.
Fair enough but I don't see this style of table saw going the way of the dodo anytime soon. If people complain about spending a little extra money on a table saw I doubt they're willing to spend money on teh alternatives. As well considering the space required for some of the sliders... If I'm not on the same track here please correct me.
I'd outfit a set of feeders on what I already owned rather than buying the SawStop.
You get more bang for your buck - kickback protection, increased accuracy, and the safety implied by never getting your hands near the blade. The Sawstop does nothing about kickback and it obviously does not help with accurate rip cuts like a set of feeders will.
Dunno about you, but I am biologically wired to prefer something that keeps my hand from touching a spinning blade rather than something that stops the blade in milliseconds when my hand touches it. If the space shuttle can fail, then I'm sure this thing can too. That little electronic sensor does not remind me of something that would last hot Louisiana summers sitting in the bowel of a tablesaw in an un-airconditioned, busy, dusty shop. I guess they should be changed from time to time even if they haven't been tripped? Anyone?
Edited 11/6/2006 3:29 pm ET by VeriestTyro
Tyro,
I pretty much agree with all your points. The tablesaw as we know it today is a basically flawed design that evolved at a time when safety was not a recognized priority and has simply survived.
The design has survived, like all less-than-optimal, but seemingly-adequate designs, because wood can be cut in an expedient fashion and injuries, while unfortunate are rare.
It is stupid to stand in front of a blade and push wood manually past the cutting part of the machine, with one's fingers, at times, within fractions of an inch of the cutting teeth, and the danger of kickback frequently present. That the machine creates kickback and doesn't absolutely prevent it (as in having the work firmly clamped in a holding mechanism) is inexcusable.
The process of manually pushing the work against the rip fence and sliding on the table is inherently inaccurate and results in "creep" far more than most workers realize. Miter fences and cross cut sleds, as good as they are, are crude devices with huge amounts of slop in their "bearings" which are nothing more than poorly-fitted bars riding against horribly-machined slots, bare metal against bare metal.
But the design survives, because it's so easy to use.
The saw stop is nothing more than an invention to make up for the inherently bad design ofthe underlying machine.
Yes, a power feeder improves the design. It takes the operator's hands away from the business part of the machine and controls the work in a smooth, predictable way that no human muscle power can, and it controls kickback. But the machine is unchanged. It's also time consuming to set up, and there would be howls of protest from workers and shop owners alike if all ripping were required to be done with power feeders. (Don't get me wrong, I think "ordinary" table saws should be fitted with power feeders.)
A different design is to have a "real" sliding table design such as on Felder, Mini-Max and Hammer machines in which the slider comes right up to the edge of the blade. Work is firmly clamped on the table for cross cuts and rips and precision bearings impart their ten-thousandth tolerances to the cut during which creep is non-existent. The operator's hands are far from the blade.
Of course, such machines are inherently more expensive. Sometimes frightfully so. And the sliding table places a finite limit on the length of a rip operation. So, such machines also allow "standard" ripping, against a rip fence, for long pieces.
I've done most of my ripping on the band saw. I've debated getting a standard cabinet saw with a power feeder vs a sliding table saw. I'll soon have the sliding table saw and be able to comment on its use. Especially the "safety factor."
Rich
A different design is to have a "real" sliding table design such as on Felder, Mini-Max and Hammer machines in which the slider comes right up to the edge of the blade. Work is firmly clamped on the table for cross cuts and rips and precision bearings impart their ten-thousandth tolerances to the cut during which creep is non-existent. The operator's hands are far from the blade.
Excerpted for emphasis.
The Sawstop has a riving knife that significantly reduces both the frequency and the force of any kickbacks.
If the electronics on a car can handle the far greater extremes of weather and vibration, with very low failure rates, there is no reason to expect that the Sawstop's mechanism is likely to have any problems. Electronics are common in all sorts of industrial equipment and again there is rarely a problem. The safety mechanism also has built in diagnostics that will shut it down if a problem is detected.
John W.
The riving knife feature on the sawstop is aimed at further reducing kick back. In either case, the splitter and guard feature is well designed. Much better than the poor quality ones that are 'standard' on most saws. Powermatic has a saw with a riving knife as well, and of course many of the mobile saws have them.
Anyway I understand what you're saying and I obviously can not fault it. It is safer o use a power feeder. This is a very active solution, one that I don't see many people doing for every rip cut. As well if I remember correctly power feeders bolt to the table (???) which would limit the width of cut that the saw is capable of. Stupid or not I don't see this being accepted.
Put on a table and have a computer controlled laser do the cutting.
" There'll be no living with her now" - Captain Jack Sparrow
Is driving a car stupid? I mean look at it: you are going 60 or 70 mph with oncoming traffic just a few feet to your left. Or how about flying in an airplane? Swimming must be outrageously stupid, we don't have gills and can barely float. Skiing must be completely off the charts.
John W.
John,
Those are not very good analogies, although your point is good.
In driving and flying great efforts have been made to identify safety risks and to solve them. Yes it is stupid to drive inches or even feet from cars going the other direction. That's why medians and guard rails exist. On roads where they don't, it is almost crazy to do what we do. But we do!
To make the driving situation more analagous to using a table saw, I would say that allowing cars to drive in any lane at all (not limiting to the right side of the road) would be about equivalent.
And the "standard" table saw design has been without change in this country for almost a century, while serious design change and very serious concerns with safety have been mandatory in Europe, Australia, New Zealand.
Flying is dangerous if one is not trained. But it's silly to say that the machines used for flying have anything inherently dangerous in their design. The pilot is not in danger of being eaten by the prop. Of course he's in great danger if he flies into the ground. And come to think if it, I always am real uncomfortable in commercial "puddle jumpers" when I get to sit in the seat with the huge prop just outside my window. I always worry about that thing coming loose and tearing into the body of the plane right where I'm sitting!
Swimming. Well I dunno. You're really forcing that one.
Rich
Edited 11/6/2006 6:34 pm ET by Rich14
Is driving a car stupid? I mean look at it: you are going 60 or 70 mph with oncoming traffic just a few feet to your left. Or how about flying in an airplane? Swimming must be outrageously stupid, we don't have gills and can barely float. Skiing must be completely off the charts.
This is so silly I don't even know where to get started, so I won't.
As to the electronics... having just replaced an eight hundred dollar computer module on a car with about 60,000 miles on it I take your assurances with a grain of salt, but I'll give you the benefit of the the doubt that the product is made to auto industry standards. Boy, I feel better already. How about everybody else? I guess the chairman of AutoZone better look to put his company in another line of business since auto parts never wear out or fail outright.
Instead of leaving your safety up to an electronic circuit board, it still makes more sense to me to take the approach the Europeans have taken (namely, keeping your hands out of the way) which has resulted in wonderfully accurate sliding tables, or what safety minded shops have used for decades, motorized feeders.
Edited 11/7/2006 7:31 am ET by VeriestTyro
And your alternative is.... (for the amateur/home woodworker, not the big shop with big budgets and big projects)
Edited 11/7/2006 9:17 am by PeterDurand
Like I said in my posts above, stock feeders, available for a few hundred bucks from Grizzly, Delta, et al.
Keep your hands away from the blade. Stock feeders have been around forever and those truly interested in safety have used them forever.
The SawStop has brought the safety 'Johnny-Come-Latelys' out of the woodwork. I think we are mostly hearing from the tool junkies rather than those seriously concerned about tablesaw safety.
Hand feeding stock is the problem. The answer is not an elaborate electronic one-trick pony that stops the blade with only a nick to the finger or hand.
The SawStop is only a breakthrough for those not familiar with other alternatives to operating a modern, well-designed tablesaw safely.
Edited 11/7/2006 2:00 pm ET by VeriestTyro
And your alternative is....
See response to Peter Durand.
Safety isn't cheap. Some people drive Volvos. Some people drive Cavaliers, cinch their seatbelts tight, and hope.
If you're interested in safety, you'll still do better than the SawStop by adding stock feeders to your set up. You get accuracy, kickback control, and your hands aren't feeding the stock so the blade isn't nibbling at them.
You can't go out and pick up the SawStop mechanism and install it on your machine and enjoy safety. You have to buy a new saw. Go get stock feeders and in less than an hour you'll be sawing wood infinitely safer than you ever have.
Edited 11/7/2006 2:41 pm ET by VeriestTyro
While some of what you say may be valid, you have a way of making your points with an insulting and confrontational edge that brings forth a like response. I hope that I don't come off that way when I voice my opinions.I don't have a power feed for my saw, not because the price is out of line, but because I don't do long production runs. I don't believe I want to spend the time it takes to make adjustments to the feeder to accommodate various thicknesses and shapes on a small project, especially since I rarely use sheet goods. I also don't want to have to install and remove the feeder multiple times during the course of a project. Since the power feed has limited abilities and I am unwilling to compromise the versatility of the tablesaw (the primary reason they are still so popular) the SawStop is a smart improvement that makes sense to me. I've watched the demonstration in person, poked around inside and like the quality, robust construction and the inclusion of a factory supplied, separate lockout switch as standard. I'll be upgrading as the piggy bank allows.In the future if I have a need for a power feed I'll certainly add it and have the added safety for those cuts that warrant it. I'm not so closed minded as to the addition of new technologies in my shop. Nor am I going to completely rely on any safety device over sensible shop practices, but another layer of safety that operates without obstructing or restricting the work is welcome.
You seem unfamiliar with how power feeders work.
Maybe a picture is worth a thousand words:
http://www.sunhillmachinery.com/Power%20Feeders%20AF32.htm
They swing up and out of the way, height is adjusted pretty much like the bed on a power planer.
They're out of the way in moments, say for crosscutting with a shop made or after-market sled.
Their use is by no means restricted to processing sheet goods.
The totally uninitiated can have one up and running twenty minutes after unpacking.
Edited 11/7/2006 5:28 pm ET by VeriestTyro
I assume there are modles avalible with more horizontal movement, other wise you couldn't cut a sheet of plywood in half.
Jack
Since this thread is generally about safety, I'd use a vertical panel saw set up to break down plywood, but yes you can get bigger feeders with more horizontal travel.
There is also bigger equipment available for those that need to handle heavy, unwieldy sheet goods horizontally. But I believe vertical is the way to go for a one-man operation.
Edited 11/8/2006 9:06 am ET by VeriestTyro
As most people I'm interested in safety but want to control spending so I don't waste money on expensive items that I will only use occasionally.
Jack
Then it would seem that buying a completely new saw would be out of the question....??
Gee, let's just go to a completely automated shop. That is the only way to ensure nothing happens.
What about non-ripping operations and cutting smaller pieces? Slider? I don't think so. And John White's car analogy is more than appropriate. That you couldn't counter it doesn't make it so. 40,000+ people die every year in the US in autos, most on routine local drives, not on the divided highways/interstates. Getting in your car is pretty much the most dangerous thing you'll do unless you engage in another risky activity.
Jake
See there you go getting uppity. I am not familiar with the power feeders so I ask you a simple question do they come with wider horizontal movement. You then came back with the vertical panel saws and I explained why I ask the first question. You came back with Then it would seem that buying a completely new saw would be out of the question....?? I said nothing about buying a new table saw, only that I am fruggle.
Jack
I agree with you that VT's bedside manner needs improvement. But his comments have got me thinking and make much sense. Why pay the premium for the SS when you get much bigger bang for the buck with a power feeder? More safety and accuracy for less money. And the power feeder can be used with other tools too. Of course I don't cut many sheet goods on m TS, an when I do I use board buddies.
They're heavy, even the baby or junior feeders, but you're right - they can be moved from machine to machine if you want to. All you have to do is plug them in.
A good, basic saw with a quality aftermarket sliding table and powerfeeders is light years ahead of the SawStop in functionality and safety. There is no reason to dump a Delta or Powermatic saw for a SawStop. No reason at all.
And if you have a decent budget something from Europe is even better.
Edited 11/9/2006 9:44 am ET by VeriestTyro
A good, basic saw with a quality aftermarket sliding table and powerfeeders is light years ahead of the SawStop in functionality and safety. There is no reason to dump a Delta or Powermatic saw for a SawStop. No reason at all.
Okay I think we're in agreement. I think running out and buying the newest and the best will only lead to trouble. However for those that are at a logical upgrade (contractor to cabinet), or those buying a first saw, the sawstop should be considered. The saw can of course be equiped with a sliding table and even a power feeder if the user wishes.
The question is: what makes a good safety device? A safety device has to do what it intends to do, and it has to be transparent to the user (that is it should not limit, nor delay the user significantly). The Sawstop features two such devices. The Sawstop and a quick release riving knife.
The problem with power feeders are that they don't pass this test. It does what it intends to do VERY well, however it limits the user and adds a singnificant amount of time to a project. Again correct me if I am wrong, but the power feeders I have seen bolt to the edge of the corner. This alone limits the width of cut; both rip and crosscut. When a wide cut needs to be made, the feeder would have to be removed. This would take a significant amount of time, and of course removes the protection it provides. Second it must be adjusted for each different cut, maybe this is quick but it still adds up.
Table saw accidents are not inevitable. Proper use, education, and use of the guards and splitters will prevent most accident; but I don't think it hurts to have a little insurance.
A lot of pople who make their living working wood use power feeders.
If they were as inefficient as you seem to believe they are they 1) wouldn't exist; 2) people whose livelihoods depend on getting work out the door wouldn't use them.
There's no whizbang to them. They've been around a while. No flashy ad campaigns currently underway that I'm aware of. They aren't a new tool for the tool junky crowd to salivate over.
Edited 11/9/2006 11:44 am ET by VeriestTyro
People who make their living using wood also do large production runs, and may have multiple saws. None of the small custom makers I know in town have a power feeder on their table saw. That's not to say it doesn't happen, it just not as common as you'd have everyone believe.
Since you haven't corrected my I assume that I am correct, the power feeder bolts to the edge of the table. Since my table is about 4' wide, I'd be limiting the rip capacity to under 2'. Am I correct?
Yes the would exist. There are some machines, such as a shaper, for which the feeder is almost a must and does not limit the machine in any significant way.
Power feeders really only come into their own where there are long runs to do VT. I'd say they have limited functionality for occasional use, such as the work habits of most of the visitors to this forum. They're certainly ideal for running many metres (or feet) of squared stock at a time, e.g., spindle moulding, and continuous ripping of stock on rip saws.
However, even someone like me that's been known to break out a couple of m3 of rough timber in one go can't find much use for a power stock feeder at the initial stages of stock conversion on the range of sliding table saws, rip saws, bandsaws and radial arm saws I turn to.
The wood is all different thicknesses and widths and the thought of holding the job up through adjusting a power feeder is anathema to me. True, once the stock's of roughly uniform size a power feeder makes the job efficient and safer-- but the run needs to be long enough to justify using it. A secondary benefit of a power feeder of course is an improved quality of cut due to the consistent feed rate.
I guess I'm supporting many of the objections of the (mostly) amateurs contributing to this thread that find it hard to agree with your contentions. On the other hand, large industrial machinery along with batch and mass production techniques are meat and drink to me, along with the contrasting fabrication style found in high quality, extremely detailed, one-off items. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
I've found it doesn't take much effort to reach over and turn a handle to move it up or down or in and out.
We make virtually the same adjustment on other tools regularly.
We do it with power planers, jointers, shaper heads, molders, etc. Some of the better models of these tools have power feeders integral in the design, but yet still require adjustment to run the job properly - one board or one hundred boards.
Have you ever turned the wheel to lower the blade height and tilt on your tablesaw,, and did so for one board? If so, you've made virtually the same adjustment required to run a feeder.
In reality, it's the fact that you're used to NOT making that kind of adjustment on a tablesaw even though you make virtually the same adjustment on other machinery routinely. It's a matter of habit, or lack thereof, and that's fine, but it ought to be identified for what it is.
It's really nice to watch you doing the heavy lifting in this thread, because I was doing it some time ago and got tired. Since I agree with everything you have said, I'll just continue to stand back and let you get the benefit of the exercise.
"In reality, it's the fact that you're used to NOT making that kind of adjustment on a tablesaw even though you make virtually the same adjustment on other machinery routinely. It's a matter of habit, or lack thereof, and that's fine, but it ought to be identified for what it is."
Yup. The ingrained, old habits of table saw use make it really difficult to make inroads into the use of the machine as it has always existed.
Rich
I certainly agree that if you're running stock that's much of a muchness regarding thickness and width then a powere feeder can have a place. They're certainly a boon on things like spindle moulders where you're running PAR stock through.
I don't see any advantage when it comes to handling rough sawn stock of various widths and thicknesses. Far more tinkering than I'm prepared to put up with. I guess I'm not likely to change my work practices. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
As long as both height and horizontal travel are adjustable by the ubiquitous handwheel I don't see the problem and I'm not seeing how it's much different from other shop equipment, but to each his own.
You don't strike me as somebody who would go crying if he lost a finger or try to blame a piece of equipment, so no harm no foul I guess.
Edited 11/9/2006 6:28 pm ET by VeriestTyro
You're right, VT. I don't complain about my missing fingers. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
The wood is all different thicknesses and widths and the thought of holding the job up through adjusting a power feeder is anathema to me..
Interesting thread. I always found myself doing most of my ripping after stock had been planed to thickness and jointed one edge. Ripping for parallel edges and to width, you know. Joint, plane, rip, and crosscut last. I almost always had at least a grouping of boards that were at the same thickness. But a simple handwheel adjustment up or down isn't that earth shattering, is it?
It looked like the small feeder pictured had almost a foot of horizontal travel. Man, that takes care of almost all the solid stock I use on any given project; how 'bout you and where are you buying your lumber from, Wide Lumber PLC of Glasgow?
This isn't going to be one of those 'you don't need a flat workbench, hey I just flattened my workbench a month ago' threads, is it? :-)
Edited 11/9/2006 2:07 pm ET by CStanford
Anyway since VeriestTyro has not answered my question perhaps you will. The power feeder bolts to the table. Correct? This would give just under 2' clearance from the blade to the mounting (assuming the table is 4' wide). Or does the power feeder mount further out?
Feeders do bolt to the edge of the table. I used to work in a production shop and we would use them from time to time, but we used them primarily on the shaper. They really shine on that. Once in a while when we had large runs of straight stock to mill we would hook a feeder to the PM66, but it was always for narrow (4" or less) rips.
Yes, if you have on on the table, it reduces the surface area of the table. But I never thought it was a big deal because we always used them with solid lumber (sheet goods were cut on a beam saw) so it never occurred to me to use one for sheet good breakdown.
I do not have one in my own shop, on my Jet contractor's saw.
I can't believe we're talking about safety and the EZ/Festool brigade hasn't jumped in. That's a fresh argument I never tire of hearing :-)
Maybe someday I'll know a little something.
I can't believe we're talking about safety and the EZ/Festool brigade hasn't jumped in. That's a fresh argument I never tire of hearing :-)
Oh no! Now what have you done! They'll be here any second... RUN!
This thread is already way off topic.
I can't believe we're talking about safety and the EZ/Festool brigade hasn't jumped in. That's a fresh argument I never tire of hearing :-)
They're afraid of the tablesaw brigades.
After all, the King likes the tablesaw
and we can't imagine of a better or just another way.
david.
Charles, certainly sometimes I'll rip out solid timber parts after some initial flattening and squaring over surface planers and through thicknessers. But oftentimes that's not the case as rough wood is ripped up into more manageable bits prior to surface planing and thicknessing. As far as work practices are concerned either way round has always been quite normal. It depends on the wood available and the job.
Probably a lot to do with differences in ways of working are the differences in types of saws and fences typically used for this kind of work. I've always found cabinet saws, the style favoured in the US anyway, with their relatively ineffectual safety devices and their long rip fences a pretty strange beast. When I lived in the US and came across that style of machine, I have to admit that in some respects I found them rather ill-suited to the ripping of solid wood, especially rough sawn stuff. Your preference of getting a face flattened and an edge squared prior to doing any ripping on a US style cabinet saw has some attraction. Slainte. Richard Jones Furniture
Just making the point that buying a new saw doesn't make a lot of sense if you already own a decent one. You could by three or four power feeders (at least) for the cost of a new SawStop.
What I find hard to fathom are the folks who already own basically the same saw, say an older Delta or Powermatic, but talk about buying a new SawStop. This is ridiculous, IMO. They're the same saw when you remove the SawStop mechanism from the equation. And a power feeder is a more versatile piece of equipment and ought to keep you just as safe, if not safer than a SawStop.
VeriestTyro,
With all due respect, I beg to difer. I just sold my 3 yr old PM 66.
What I find hard to fathom are the folks who already own basically the same saw, say an older Delta or Powermatic, but talk about buying a new SawStop. This is ridiculous, IMO. They're the same saw when you remove the SawStop mechanism from the equation. (your quote)
Well not exactly. Some of the short comings of the saw were poor quality fence faces.
Very poor dust colection. Hand wheel locks needed to have threads redone. Hand wheel movement, both, not very smooth as compared to say a unisaw. Very poor blade guard. Small table
Yes, all minor stuff. But if a hobbyist wants to upgrade to a riving knife, bigger table. better fit and finish, and it makes them happy, then who cares? In fact, we should thank the hobbyist, (and I am one) because lets face it, they have a lot of buying power, and thats what supports a lot of these companies. I have compared both saws. I owned the PM and have done a lot a research and have seen, and touched the Saw Stop. IMHO, the Saw Stop is a better quality product. Go look at one, and youll be convinced too. Shame on Powermatic and the other mfgs for putting out the same product for years untill other players forced their hand. (ie:pm 2000).
Im not looking for an argument, just my opinion. Different strokes for different folks, that's what makes the world go round.
Joe P
http://www.diynetwork.com/diy/hi_tools/article/0,2037,DIY_13936_4093269,00.html
Installing a power feeder. You have plenty of table left on the right side, especially if you have an extension table. They don't bolt through the table. They use a clamp that is tightened with bolts. I've seen more than one wing nut set up that worked just fine.
Edited 11/9/2006 6:17 pm ET by VeriestTyro
Ok, I’m a hobbyist not a pro. I have a very old direct drive Delta. I want to upgrade to a 3 or 5 HP saw. I can’t justify 10 grand or more for a Euro machine. I occasionally cut sheet goods. I want to be as safe as is reasonably possible. Given these criteria, what package would you recommend.
Jack
Jack, I'd break the sheet goods down by taping the cutline with masking tape and by running a circular saw against a guide. Foisting full-size sheet goods onto a table saw is not my idea of fun. Then I'd cut the parts with width and length on a tablesaw. I actually believe that judicious use of a push stick will keep you from cutting a finger off. It's pretty hard to remove a digit when it is riding atop a push stick or shoe. You could buy an entry level cabinet saw and put a junior feeder on it. If you're a Delta man, and there's nothing wrong with that, then maybe a barebones Unisaw is doable. The Unifence is still one of the best out there. I wouldn't go Biesmeyer, because you can make the Unifence a short fence for ripping.
I've seen baby feeders used on a tabletop saw set into a 'little shop that could' set up - basically a set of cabinets and worktop that a small direct drive saw can be set into drastically increasing a tablesaw's table size. See Poplular Woodworking for the 'little shop that could' series of articles. One of the best series ever run for the hobbyist set.
Edited 11/9/2006 6:15 pm ET by VeriestTyro
Okay I see now. I was in error that the power feeder mounts to the right (just the pictures I was looking at), when I assume in reality it could mount to either side. For most riping operations I don't think that this little guy would get in the way (even with panels provided that they were broken down). It seems to me that a sliding table, and a power feeder might be at odds with each other (since the left extension wing is removed), however a quick detach plate would help.
In terms of set up is the feeder mounted directly beside the blade, or centered on the stock?
So now we need both a vertical panel saw AND a power feeder? This is getting expensive! I might as well by the Sawstop fro that price...
Edited 11/8/2006 6:16 pm ET by Buster2000
I said I would use a vertical panel saw. You can use whatever you want.
Except a power feeder.... They limit the width of cut...
John, that was my vein of thought. Thanks for the quick reply. My PM 66 is being picked up tomorrow, and then I will make a appointment to "test cut" the Saw Stop at my local Woodcraft.
Thanks Again.
Joe P
As far as people focusing their attention once a bad event had occurred: I once had to take a remedial driver's ed class as part of a speeding ticket I got. The instructor predicted that half of us would break a traffic law before we got a block away from the class site. He showed us video of previous classes as they were driving away that proved his point.Accidents can't be prevented -- that's the nature of accidents. However, we can take steps to minimize the result of the accident.
You would think that once you hit your thumb with a hammer you would be a lot more careful and never do it again. I'm sure you've only banged the old thumb once, but most people are not so lucky.
Jack
"Almost" isn't much comfort. If the man has the bucks to buy a SawStop, why argue with him? I'm saving up for one.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
If we can't tolerate "almost" then we should never get in our car to go to a movie, or to cross the street to visit with a neighbor, or..... And, stay out of the bathtub since so many accidents happen there. It is, of course, all a matter of personal preference. There is nothing wrong with "overspending" on a safe tablesaw, just like there is nothing wrong with "overspending" with a luxury automobile.
And staying safe is not really a matter of maintaining vigilance over the long-term. What is much more important is developing a routine that is safe. After a few months of practice with the safe routine it becomes something that doesn't require special thought. Then its only the special situations--the new kind of project-- that require extra concentration.
Steve, this argument is so tiring....yawn. I just love the way you guys jump all over someone who (a) is an adult and (b) has been woodworking for awhile and (c) has the money to go the extra mile on safety, insisting that if he goes that extra mile, he shouldn't even be woodworking. Talk about bo-oh-oh-gus (that's spelled "bogus").
I guess the ones who argue this way must be perfect human beings, and obviously have a great deal of confidence their perfection being permanent and unshakable, even for a millisecond, which is about how long it takes to cut off a digit.
Must not have ever seen the bumper sticker "Sh|* Happens".forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another excellent observation. I love your insights, you should be a shrink (maybe you are?).
John W.
Might as well put her on the payroll. I think she's gunning for your job anyway.
Edited 11/1/2006 2:23 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute
I'm sure that she is way too smart to take this job and why would anyone leave the Pacific NW to move here?
John W.
No that's not right at all. I make no argument that I or anyone is perfect. In fact it is quite the opposite. Practically all human endevour has an element of risk. Each of us, for ourselves, must decide which risks to avoid, and how much to pay in order to avoid them. In my personal calculus, the risk of a serious table saw accident is small enough that paying $2,000 to reduce it isn't a sensible expenditure, just as the risk of auto accidents is small enough that I am not a hermit. (But I do wear my seat belt, even though that in only serious accident I was in (40+ years ago) I would have been killed had I been wearing my seat belt.)
And, it just isn't true that running a hand into a table saw blade is some sort of random event that "just happens". It happens only because an improper technique was used that made the unexpected turn into a cutting event--that turned a startle into a movement toward the blade instead of away. Or that made a slip end up going into the cutting path instead of a ruined piece of wood. Arguing as if only a SawStop will reduce cut hands does a disservice for the many who cannot be woodworkers at SawStop prices, and who are essentially being told that there isn't any point in discovering and practicing safe sawing. That's the same as telling teens that only abstinence prevents pregnancy.
The reviews I've read say that they start with a saw worth $2000 and add the sawstop, so the added saftey isn't$2000. When you look a a product it's best to look at all its features and quality not just one. It may be $2000 more than a HF saw but it isn't $2000 more than most good or better cabinet saws.
To me it seems you are only paying about $700 for the added saftey. Do you have to buy it, no. You don't have to buy home insurance either, I'm sure you have no intention of burning down your house and with your exelant atention to safe methods ,I'm sure every thing in your house is fire proof.
IMHO just because you can't aford one is no reason to tell others they are wasting their money on one, it just sounds like sour graps to me.
Jack
Edited 11/2/2006 12:44 am ET by JLMCDANIEL
Well, at least get the figures right. Unless you live in the Pacific Northwest, and assuming you want a fence, its going to cost nearly $3,700 to put that Saw Stop into your shop. (That assumes you evade use taxes, which would add some $200 where I live.) This also assumes you never trigger the cartridge--an event which could occur in plenty of other situations than saving a finger. (See the thread on plywood from the borg.) I certainly have less than $1,700 in my Unisaw. Maybe I would have to pay $1,900 including tax to pick up a new Unisaw locally tomorrow. So I guess I should have said it costs $1,800 for the safety. Perhaps the Unisaw is not quite as high quality as the SawStop on some measures, but I doubt there will be anyway to tell the difference in terms of pure performance.
But more importantly, I am not telling anyone they are wasting their money buying a Saw Stop, I am saying I would be wasting my money buying one, and that others should do their own risk calculations. At least they should be allowed to do so, and not have some regulatory requirement foisted upon them.
You make my point exactly with the fire risk example. I gladly accept the risk of fire at my house, which after all is a wood frame house. But, I don't play with matches. I accept that I can never eliminate all risk, just reduce it. My homeowners insurance covers the financial risk, just as my medical insurance covers the medical expenses if I were injured--that's not part of the equation in either situation.
Why the personal attack? No sour grapes here. I can afford a SawStop--a check for the full amount would clear--but there are other choices I would prefer to make. But there are lots and lots of people that find $2,000 or even $1,000 out of the question for a table saw. Their only solution is learn and practice safe techniques. The cost for that is some expenditure of effort. It's effort I find worth making.
Edited 11/2/2006 9:20 am ET by SteveSchoene
But more importantly, I am not telling anyone they are wasting their money buying a Saw Stop, I am saying I would be wasting my money buying one, and that others should do their own risk calculations. At least they should be allowed to do so, and not have some regulatory requirement foisted upon them.
I knew it, I knew it, I knew it!!! Your true agenda finally surfaces. ROFL!! forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
MAN I love this site!DJK
"At least they should be allowed to do so, and not have some regulatory requirement foisted upon them."Can you name one safety measure that was adopted by industry purely as a result of market forces? I certainly can't think of one.You seem to be confusing reducing the risk of an accident with reducing the consequences of an accident. The SawStop mechanism has nothing to do with reducing the chances that your thumb will come into contact with the blade. It has everything to do with what happens after your thumb hits that blade. If I understand you correctly, you are also concerned that people will become more careless because of the implementation of this safety device. Again, I can't think of any situation where a safety measure resulted in an increase in the number of accidents. (Motorcycle accidents don't go up in number if helmet laws are enacted.) But even if this was the case, the cost to society will be less if there are 100 people walking around with superficial lacerations than if there are 10 people with digit amputations.
"Can you name one safety measure that was adopted by industry purely as a result of market forces? I certainly can't think of one."The riving knives on the new Grizzly and PM tablesaws.Magnetic switches for consumer saws are pretty common nowadays. (I think they're required in pro shops, though).That's two from the last year or so. Maybe they're the only ones in history, I dunno.
"Can you name one safety measure that was adopted by industry purely as a result of market forces? I certainly can't think of one.""The riving knives on the new Grizzly and PM tablesaws.Magnetic switches for consumer saws are pretty common nowadays. (I think they're required in pro shops, though).That's two from the last year or so. Maybe they're the only ones in history, I dunno."Riving knives first came to market because of mandates in Europe dating back to 1953. (http://www.inrs.fr/htm/couteaux_diviseurs_pour_scies_circulaires.html) Magnetic switches, as you say, were mandated first.
>"Can you name one safety measure that was adopted by industry purely as a result of market forces? I certainly can't think of one."ABS and side curtain airbags are not required by law, but they are offered in many new cars. The automobile industry now sees market demand for safety and responds to it. Among lawnmowers, crockpots, other potentially hazardous devices, there must be at least a few safety measures that were added without government regulation.Not that I'm against government regulation. Some devices, like an automobile, have the potential to inflict great harm even on people who do not necessarily choose to be in the dangerous situation. So I think child safety seat regulations are a good thing. However, operating a tablesaw is an adult choice. It's not a device that most people must use to get through their day to day lives. We should be making judgements about individual cases like this, not just falling back on ideology to tell us "regulation is bad" or "government needs to protect people".Now, from what's been published about the SawStop brake, it seems to be adding at most a few hundred dollars to the cost of the saw. In my opinion, once it is widely available at that kind of price, you'd be nuts not to want to add it to your saw. Meanwhile, most of the $1900 or so spread between a Unisaw and a SawStop seems to be some hard-to-determine mix of added quality and cost of production (not the braking device itself). Nobody should be talking about government requiring people to pay for that. The question is whether regulation should require $100 or $300 or $500 to be added to the price of every saw to pay for a safety brake. IMHO the answer should be "no", but within a few years I'd expect the option to be widely available on many saws, and many of us will gladly pay for it. The reason is simple. It isn't 1965 anymore. In today's markets, safety sells.
I predict that somebody will invent something far better than the SawStop device and that the company will be remembered only for getting the ball rolling.
I also believe that judicious use of a push shoe virtually eliminates the chance of cutting fingers off. But hey, that's apparently not as cool as getting an eighth inch deep cut, ruining a perfectly good saw blade, and being out the expense and time for a new SawStop cartridge (not to mention the saw itself).
Yeah, that must be it. I'm going to throw out my ancient $8 plastic Craftsman push shoe so I can let the SawStop save me. I'll have a cool story to tell and they'll put my picture on their website,,, you know,,, the one with me giving a 'thumbs up' sign.
Suckers are born how often?
The SawStop just helps ingrain lousy habits (pushing stock with bare hands) that you will port to other machines that are not equipped, or susceptible to being equipped, with a SawStop. A hand mangled by a shaper is not a pretty sight.
Keep on Pushin' baby.
Edited 11/10/2006 2:41 pm ET by CStanford
That's absolutely correct. The appropriate way to analyse these things, in my opinion, is what is sometimes called the "economic way of thinking". That is, you analyse it in terms of costs and benefits of each side. (That isn't to say that everything boils down to dollars and cents: it doesn't, but thinking about costs can be a handy analysis tool).Regulations have costs and benefits. Freedom from regulations has costs and benefits. Count the costs, as honestly as one can; count the benefits as honestly as one can; and one will have an informed opinion.Sawstop: Costs: Around $1000 over a comparable machine. Maybe ongoing costs from false firings, but that could be FUD: it'd have to be researched and quantified if I were shopping.Benefits: A decrease in the odds of an accident. How great is that benefit? Depends on who you are: if you're an experienced woodworker or a pro who has ingrained, safe habits, the benefit will be smaller than it would be to me, a weekend warrior who's always in a hurry and might get sloppy. Another benefit is peace of mind: again, only the individual can weight that. One shouldn't discount the peace-of-mind factor to one's spouse, either: I know my wife would gladly pay the extra $ -- she doesn't understand the tool or the risk, so the peace of mind is worth a lot.I think SawStop just gets a lot of people's backs up because of the early reports they were trying to get the thing mandated. I don't know anything about that except what I read in the press, which is to say, I know nothing. I don't know how serious they were, I don't know how long they tried or what they tried, or even if they mentioned it once during one meeting with one manufacturer and that manufacturer took it and ran with it (again, FUD). I'll never know. But I think residual annoyance remains.
Guess I'm partly responsible for the dicussion of Sawstop since inquiring in late October. I'm a retired hobby woodworker with about five years experience. Was cutting sticks for stacking wood in July 05 and almost cut my thumb off. Was using a push stick but didn't have a splitter on my saw. I reached around the blade to hold the thin piece against the fence. Didn't get around the blade! Was a stupid unthinking thing to do.
A splitter, a blade guard, or not reaching around would have prevented the accident. A power feeder (if it will feed 1/2 " material) would have prevented the accident. (This was one of the very few repeative cuts that I ever had reason to make, which may make a power feeder unfeasible.)
I knew the Sawstop was available then but was unsure of quality. After reading all your replies and researching every way I knew, I bought the saw and set it up last week. My decision was based on quality but most importantly because I know I'm human and potential might someway get a hand in that blade again. I'd also buy the power feeder if I thought it would be feasible for the infrequent frequency of cuts in my shop.
Having said all that I think I'm a very safety conscience person. Just a brief loss of concentration that could reoccur.
Just thought you might want to hear from someone who has looked at this considering safety, quality and cost and don't care about the politics or old school.
<I reached around the blade to hold the thin piece against the fence>Not trying to beat up on you, and I'm sorry about your injury, but reaching around the blade to hold stock against the fence is just incorrect procedure. Sounds like you've learned that the hard way, but now you know.Congratulations on your new saw.
True,,, that kind of manuver will result in injury a comparitively large percentage of the time I'd imagine.
The problem with power equipment is that people buy it, place it in their shop, and haven't a clue how to operate it properly. Thirty minutes or so of light reading could prevent a lot of accidents.
1 relative and 1 friend both had serious finger injuries on a TS in the last 1 month. 1 finger now gone and the other had the saw kirf down the middle of the finger so his finger is now 1/8" thinner to the 1st knuckle.
I know both didn't use good practice, but it makes me think a sawstop is a good thing.
The last time I priced a Delta Unisaw it Was $2195 plu tax. Of course the Sawstop is going to be a little higher than Delta due to shear volume of manufatureing. When the Sawstop was first anounced , it seems to me that it would add about $600 to the price for the other manufacturers. If it ver more abundantly produced the price would go down.
You said "But more importantly, I am not telling anyone they are wasting their money buying a Saw Stop, I am saying I would be wasting my money buying one, and that others should do their own risk calculations. At least they should be allowed to do so, and not have some regulatory requirement foisted upon them."
If that were only true. If I want a Delta Unisaw or a Jet or and HF or a Bosch Iam not given the option to order it with a sawstop.
"Why the personal attack? No sour grapes here."
Every time some one asks about the sawstop you don’t any information as to defects, or short comings. You just lambaste the price and start complaining about government regulations. I re-read the original post three times and see nothing about regulating anything
If you don’t want one don’t buy one. If it does become mandatory, just keep using the unisaw you now have.
Jack
Regulation lurks under the surface all the time with respect to Saw Stop, given the efforts of the company to stimulate regulation. I hardly have an agenda with respect to regulation in general--much is necessary. I do support the requirements that saws have riving knives that is in the pipeline if the product is to receive a UL listing. I don't think it is desirable in this instance since I believe requiring Saw Stop or an equivalent would price a great many out of the market. There is one immutable law of physics that the energy in a rotating saw blade and arbor must be absorbed somewhere if it is required to stop quickly. That is always going to call for a beefy mechanism, and that, even more than the stopping devise is likely to keep the price relatively high.
As far as the price of a Unisaw--I can drive 20 minutes and get one with 50" Beisemeyer fence for $1,799 plus tax. (http://www.ToolsPlus.com --no affiliation) You can add extras--such as the extension table to bring the price up, but that would add to the price of SawStop, too.
As you say, I can keep using my Unisaw--and in fact its resale price might rise as prices of alternatives rise.
The alternative is there for anyone who values reducing the risk of cutting a hand high enough to buy the SawStop, it makes no difference that Jet or Delta doesn't make one.
Another part of the reality is that its clear that not all that many people find the extra cash--be it $1,800 or $1,200--worth paying given that SawStop market share is hardly visible compared to to the share of cabinet saws held by the established makers. Surely there has been sufficient publicity for the likely customers to be aware of the opportunity. Sometimes the market does speak.
Defects or shortcomings of SawStop aren't really at issue. It can be a perfect machine which nevers misfires accidentally or fails to fire when it should. I have never argued that people with SawStop's will become more careless.
The point should be made that when the first failure to fire results in a lost digit the lawsuit will be interesting to follow. It could be that the accident victim will wind up owning the company. And of course I don't know of any injuries or other defects. SawStop isn't likely to issue a press release. I'd surely expect any settlements would have non-disclosure clauses attach. Nevertheless, I have no reason at all to believe that there have yet been injury producing product failures.
Edited 11/3/2006 11:08 am ET by SteveSchoene
Ok, from what I have read, the sawstop runs about $1700 more than another high end cab saw like the PM2000. For that $1700 you get a machine at least as good in performance, the riving knife, the larger table and the sawstop device. Multiple layers of added protection.
Should everyone have one? That would be nice, but for those who cannot afford even $1000 for a saw, not likely to happen. I think you should buy the best and safest you can afford and maybe even put off a bit, if possible, to get a bit better.
Assuming a relatively minor accident with the blade, where the appendage is not severed, just getting a real bad cut, you have the cost of an emergency room visit, the pain, the recovery time, possibly lost work time - how much does that add to? And if the finger or whatever IS severed, how much does that cost?
So If someone has the money I say go for it. I would.
" There'll be no living with her now" - Captain Jack Sparrow
Steve,
I think your argument - that the (extra) cost of buying a safer machine ought to be weighed against a risk assesment concerning potential accidents - is a legitimate argument. But there is a difficulty.
Unfortunately it is no easy matter to accurately assess risks in a complex situation. The most complex situations tend to involve humans and their often erratic behaviour. Even though someone may be well-versed in safe procedures, there are a thousand and one factors that can interfere with that human and those procedures, in real life. These factors are not predictable, as it is not a deterministic world, despite what Isaac Newton thought.
Another consideration in risk assessment involves the consequence of the risk being realised. Even if the risk is very small, it may still make sense to spend a lot on reducing it even further if the consequence of risk-realisation is very high. Personally I would not like to to lose a finger; but it can be argued that most people can remain happy and productive if one or two digits do go missing. The "weight" of such a realisation within a risk assessment is probably highly personal.
In all events, money is only ...money. If you do lose a finger or three, new ones cannot be bought, so from that point of view fingers are "invaluable".
Personally, I would spend the extra on a sawstop style mechanism, if and when they appear on European TS. I like my fingers a lot - as much because they're mine as that they're useful for doing things. I judge them to be "invaluable"
In the middle ages, English archers would V-sign their foes, to show they still had their arrow-loosing fingers - fingers the French, for instance, would cut off if they caught an archer. Perhaps I have inherited a traditional English attachment (ha ha) to my digits? But I digress. :-)
Lataxe, the full-fingered.
"If you do lose a finger or three, a new one can't be bought."
Not true. I loaded up after my last mishap.
NOW CLICK HERE!!: http://zapatopi.net/themes/dactylfractalzoom.html
Edited 11/5/2006 1:57 am ET by DabblerBabbler
Edited 11/5/2006 2:07 am ET by DabblerBabbler
Dab,
I know several women who would like to meet you immediately, behind the woodshed.
Also, could you give me a hand (or 12) to tidy up my shed? It surely won't take you a moment.
Can you get other parts done in this style? Even now I am imagining having three (censored by the Ethical Standards for Plastic Surgeons of America [not incuding Miami] Committee).
Lataxe.
I wonder if anyone has asked Sawstop how many times the stop could be triggered without damage to the rest of the machine and the attaching parts.
We have a Sawstop saw in the Fine Woodworking shop and from what I can see, and I've spent quite a bit of time inside the cabinet, there is no reason to think that triggering the stop mechanism will do damage to anything other than the cartridge and the blade.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
Edited 11/3/2006 5:11 pm ET by JohnWW
The macines they take at to the shows go through a trigger every two hours or so. The shows here only have the one saw, and I have yet to see them haul one out. I figure the saw will be tested 15 times on the weekend (give or take a few). So at least 15 times... I would think in a furniture shop it would be triggered much less than this.
Edited 11/3/2006 6:14 pm ET by Buster2000
"I wonder if anyone has asked Sawstop how many times the stop could be triggered without damage to the rest of the machine and the attaching parts." They probably don't anticipate us end-users being that stupid. ROFL!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
The alternative is there for anyone who values reducing the risk of cutting a hand high enough to buy the SawStop, it makes no difference that Jet or Delta doesn't make one.
I disagree with you here because it limits the market place when you only have one source to chose from if you want that feature. I'm not saying it should be mandantory that all saws have one.
I'm a firm believer in "Assumed risk" which is a much forgotten point of law. Perhaps it is not avalible from other manufactureres because the holder of the patent is to greedy, that I don't know.
I'm sure you're right about the law suite if one of the stops fails.
You can not set a universal price on saftey, that must be left to the individual.
Jack
Its the "assumed risk" element that I suspect makes the existing manufacturers reluctant to pay large royalties to have Saw Stop technologies on new table saws. Everyone knows or should know the risks of the standard technology that has been around since the 30's. And, I think that is the big risk for SawStop is that their customers believe they have a different risk prospect and are consequently not assuming risk, despite some boiler plate in the Saw Stop manual. A Saw Stop failure, should it lead to an injury, might well be viewed differently in the courts.
I generally agree that competition is desirable--except in this situation where if SawStop couldn't protect its invention from being used by others it would likely not have been developed in the first place. Without patents I can't imagine SawStop getting funded to build the first prototype. They may still fail, but wouldn't even begin without the monopoly afforded by patents. That's the entire raison d'etre for patents in the first place
Having competiton would tell us one thing that we don't know now-- whether there is demand for these saws at $3,000 that is not there at $3,700. Of course for consumers lower prices are better prices, cet. par.
What has not been brought up in this discussion are all the other "finger eating" machines in the average shop. If the regulators (Big Bro) have their way Saw Stop like devices will be required on band saws, routers, grinders, jig saws; you name it. Personal choice is the answer. Inventors and manufacturers put the products out there, you make a choice of where to spend your $'s. The only proper venue for government in this situation is to educate people and prosecute fraud, not to force "safety" on everyone. Unless government is resisted and contained they will continue to gather power and expand till there is no freedom left. KDM "... if people did not die so untidily, most men, and all women, would commit at least one murder in their lives." R. Kipling
I agree with you that patents are important and necessary for the development of new products and technology. My point was that you only have one choice if you want the feature even though it could be avalible on the other mfg. saws. The same saw stop licensed to them, not makeing it a freeby.
Here’s a thought, suppose that the next person that cuts off a finger on a table saw was to sue Saw Stop because they don’t have retrofit kits available for their saw, if your dumb enough to hold a cup of hot coffee in your lap and you get burnt and then get a large settlement why not?
I wonder if you are right about assumed risk being the reason why the other manufacturers haven't opted to offer Saw Stop. I believe originally it was offered to them but when they wouldn't go with it Saw Stop started building their own saw. Some one must have believed in it or they wouldn't have been able to raise the money.
Jack
P.S. I have enjoyed the discussion.
Edited 11/4/2006 12:01 am ET by JLMCDANIEL
As you know a lot of people like to have quotes on the bottom of their posts so I found one for you.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help." - Ronald Reagan
Enjoy,
Jack
Fraid not. I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Democrat. I do believe that regulations should have reasonable consequences, and I suspect that this particular idea would cut the sales of tablesaws in half were Saw Stop or the equivalent were mandated. Safety at all costs is no more reasonable as issuing no safety standards.
This is a cut and paste from another forum and addresses several of the questions posed here. I hope it helps.
Jack
i had the opportunity to watch a saw stop demo at the costa mesa wood show today. it was breath taking. i talked to the Eagle Tools people at some length and learned enough to make me understand the reality of why the saw is more expensive than other TS. the carriage under the table is way different than anything elsie on the market and this is a necessity due to the dynamic forces and energy that have to be controlled when a 10" blade running at full speed is brought to a full stop in 5/1000 of a second. the cartoon equivalent of sticking a foot into an airplane prop and watching the plane do barrel rolls. as you can imagine, the underpinnings are massive and still have to raise and lower the blade and tilt to one side and return. the blade arbor and bearings are mounted on a pivoting arm. the pivot point is near the rear and up near table of the saw. the motor is more forward and lower. the belts(3) run from the motor to the pivot arbor and another belt(s) runs from the pivot arbor to the blade arbor. this whole assembly is raised and lowered like an elevator and this is tilted when tilting the blade.
the actual operation of the saw stop is fairly simple. a small current at 3 volts circulates through the blade and the detection module. if any of the current is misdirected the detection module turns the motor off and releases a compressed 150 lb spring that pushes the brake block into the blade. the dynamic force of the spinning blade force the blade and arbor down pivoting on the pivot arbor. it bottoms out into a big rubber pad.
the brake block is chewed up and deformed by the forces applied. the saw blade will have 5 to 6 teeth firmly embedded in the block. oddly enough they are saying the blade may not be destroyed but be repairable.
no you cant just install this device in your TS
good post, thank you for that one. what a great description of the process and the machine itself.
You know I think you are getting close to hitting the nail on the head. It would be interesting to see how many of the FWW readers have lost there fingers in the last year compared to those owning the Sawstop. I think it would be fairly close. The Sawstop has their great feature, and the other group are probably seasoned woodworker and know their responsible towards safety when operating a saw. I think of a lawn mower. Would you want to invest, say $3000 for a $125 mower to improve the safety? No! I think that is the dilemma the manufactures have with the Sawstop and in are justification attempts. Those that are buying now seem to be those not personally forking over the money, but those buying for school shops, company shops, etc. when using others money. No problem with that, but getting back to the lawn mower, you have to be committed to safety when you buy a $3000 mower, instead of the $125 one.
i read an article about sawstop provided through a link in the knots forum a short time ago. as i recall the jist of it was that the inventor had trouble from all directions with selling the sawstop feature both from manufacturers and regulatory/seal of approval type agencies including UL. it did not seem to make sense to me as to the reasons, although cost was a factor to manufacturers. to his credit, he believes in the product and he was willing to take on the challenge of producing the saw and selling it without the aid of traditional manufacturing channels. when i have my own shop, sawstop will be my first purchase.
I wonder how long before there are enough saw-stop owners to compile meaningful statistics. This would include false trips, lifesavers, and near misses. Its only a matter of time before some poor soul gets injured on one of these saws (surely its not 100% failsafe?) and that will be a defining moment for this technology.
Abstinence is the only "fool proof" way to prevent pregnancy (among other possible events/dangers) - condoms break, pills sometimes don't work and the rhythm method is hit or miss.
Just like we "practice" safe sawing, accidents do happen...no matter how careful you are (trust me - I know when to stop"). To have the extra level of "protection" does not make you a nervous nelly, just careful.
Again, someone asked for people who owned a sawstop, was the cost trade-off worth it, and people start slamming him for even contemplating buying one. Just like asking someone if the money spent on a Volvo was worth it and slamming him for not buying an American car.
My two cents as unsafe and sarcastic as it may be.
Donkey
Edited 11/2/2006 11:22 am ET by wood_donkey
This debate reminds me of a radio interview I heard with a physician who had written a book about accidental deaths in hospitals. Many, many people die from simple errors - e.g. prescribing or giving the wrong medication. He believed the safety would be grealy improved through establishing simple mechanisms to mitigate the harmful effects of these errors. But the culture of medicine is based on everyone, especially doctors, striving for perfection so that remedial mechanisms based on the assumption of error were impossible to implement.Now before Steve agrees with me - he believes in better individual safety rountines to combat errors - I think the analogous feature was is that all the safety mechanisms revolved around the imposition of an outside monitor human or technologial. The author found that everyone made mistakes regardless of the precautions taken. Indeed the mistakes were usually simple oversight. The only way, then, to significantly improve safety was to remove some of the responsibility from the doctors and nurses in areas where these routine errors occurred.I think some of us feel like doctors and others like patients.
"The author found that everyone made mistakes regardless of the precautions taken. " Ah, let me guess -- they're human! Fancy that. I'm a firm believer in redundancy as far as safety goes. The SawStop is simply another layer, and about the best you can get when it comes to preventing amputated digits. I don't need to be no cowboy (or cowgirl) as a woodworker.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
American Woodworker has a review in the current issue and like all reviews say that take away the sawstop brake and it is still an excellent saw with great safety features like the riving knife. The extra $1700 was judged to be worth the cost of a finger - They even had a testimonial from a Min. shop owner who had recently bought 2 for his shop - was pushing a cutoff away when finger hit the blade. He ended up with a "scratch" - his words. I do not know what your incident was, but the $1700 might be worth it to you.
" There'll be no living with her now" - Captain Jack Sparrow
I don't own one but I have a friend who does and really likes it. I also take a night course at a local trade school to use their larger industrial equipment and they also have two Saw Stops which I have been using for a while. I have used Powermatic 66's and 74's but have not used the new Powermatic 2000. I have looked at the PM 2000 at several dealers but I have not found anyone who owns one so I don't feel I could really compare it to the saw stop based on actual experience
I had one opportunity to call Saw Stop with a technical question and they seemed very knowledgeable about the product and were helpful in my determining that I couldn't do what I was hoping to do with the Saw Stop.
Is the machine worth the extra money? Well I guess you would find some disagreement on this but after the little exposure I have had with the saw I would say it is even without the "Safety" features. It is a very smooth running and operating machine but of course there is no long term history available (nor with the PM 2000) to help base your decision on.
I don't think you will be sorry if you buy one. Good luck with your decision.
When I upgraded from a PM contractors saw, I considered the Sawstop but thought that the extra cost might not be worth it. I bought a Unisaw and was very happy with the fit, finish, cut, and performance of the saw. Nice machine. One evening something unexpected happened and I lost my left index finger tip. Not the worst, but now many life things are more complicated than I would prefer.
I sold the Unisaw and bought a Sawstop. Life if full of unexpected events. Risk is also a variable. For me, the cost of the ER visit plus the consequnces of the event are no where close to the price difference between the Unisaw I originally purchased and the Sawstop. If I had it to do over again, I would have bought the Sawstop first.
Sawstop works for me, it is added insurance in case of the unexpected. Life and unexpected events happen no matter how well prepared or safety concious one might be -- it is a matter of odds. Everytime I try to tie on a fly while fishing I wish I had bought the Sawstop. The Unisaw is a grat saw, no compliants, no regrets, but it is about more than the dollar difference between the two.
Good louck on your decision. Just my experience.
Think you're right! I ordered the Sawstop several days ago and am waiting for delivery. Thanks for your reply.
I wonder how saw safety technology will evolve:
Will the next generation Sawstop also sense kickback?
I just bought the sawstop three weeks ago. Love it !!! the sawstop was easy to put together, was basically true from the factory besides some minor adjustments. When it came out of the box the motor door latch was broken, called sawstop and had the part by 9 am the next morning. Granted, the sawstop is about $1500 more than the PM2000, but after talking with some guys who have cut a finger off, they said they would have gladly spent the extra money. Plus, it made my wife feel better. I do not think you can go wrong with it.
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