So I finally have the scratch to buy a dream saw and now have a tough decision to make: SawStop or a Laguna TSS. My shop is built (18′ x 18′), subpanel wired (100A sub off of main, done by me, passed inspection!), and dust collection up and running well (Clear Vue). To justify the purchase of a great saw I’ve got to build over 100 LF of cabinets for the new house so the sliding bed of the TSS is appealing for all of the sheet goods I need to work with. However, 15 years ago a lapse of attention cost me 10 stitches in my thumb from a Unisaw, so the SawStop is very appealing. If I had the chance to write a $$1500 check to not have been cut I’d have done it.
A local shop can have the SawStop here in 3 days for $4200 (5hp motor, 52″ extension, rolling base, xtra catridge) and a local cabinet shop has a 6 month old TSS for $3900 (don’t know if he’ll haggle). What do you all think?
Replies
Brad:
You are right to put a price on safety! I have a Felder slider. The slider, with its integrated riving knife and overhead guard and dust collection will be a very safe option. I find that my hands are never near the blade because I clamp the work piece to the slider and just push it through. There is, of course, a downside to all this goodness! The slider takes up a of room. Also, if you routinely use dado cutters, then you will have to removing the riving knife and crown guard. If that is the case, then you might find the saw stop more to your liking. I do not have a dado cutter, and I have only used the saw once with the guard removed. I use my shaper (with router spindle) to make grooves and dadoes.
Each has it's own approach to safety (And both represent a marked improvement in safety over the typical US-made table saw). One makes it very hard to get your hands near the working end, the other makes it relatively safe if the unthinkable does happen. As with all equipment, the device between your ears is the most important safety device you have.
Also, the size of the slider will determine how easy it is to handle sheet stock. My slider has an outrigger so I can cross-cut 4x8 sheets all day long, but the table travel is just six inches shy of being able to rip a 4x8 sheet.
Regards,
Hastings
Brad,
Hastings makes a good case. But how could you achieve the best of both worlds?
Being British, I have TS with riving knife, guard, sliding carriage as standard. Hoewever, as H points out, it is still possible (albeit less likely) to cut a finger or worse, as no European saw (that I know of) has the sawstop mechanism.
Perhaps there is sliding carriage add-on that will fit the sawstop and work well with it? There have been some tested in FWW but none of them get very good marks. On the other hand, all of them work and perhaps just require a bit of exta care and tweaking to get the best out of them....?
The sawstop seems to have a good riving knife and guard (a la European TS) and with its instant brake is probably the safest saw in the world (regarding both cut fingers and kickback - kickback apparently being responsible for the majority of TS accidents in the US).
If I was a US citizen, with no national health service to tend to my potential cut finger or head wound, the sawstop would be a no-brainer. I like my body as-is and also my wallet undepleted by them expensive medics and/or personal-insurance salesmen you have over there.
Do sawstop themselves recommend any add-on sliding table/carriage?
Lataxe
Edited 9/8/2007 10:44 am ET by Lataxe
"Perhaps there is sliding carriage add-on that will fit the sawstop and work well with it? "
A sliding rtable bolted to the side of a table saw is nowhere near as easy to use or as safe as a proper sliding carraige, as you see on the Felder, TSS, etc. With the true slider is takes much less effort to make the cuts as it is not necessary to push more than a small piec of the material over the table - the carraige takes the weight. Another plus of the TSS is that it has a scoring blade - if you've never used one that may not mean much, but it means a virtual end to tear-out on MFC (melamine), veneered MDF, plywood, etc without having to resort to making your own zero-clearance inserts
"The Sawstop seems to have a good riving knife and guard (a la European TS) and with its instant brake is probably the safest saw in the world (regarding both cut fingers and kickback - kickback apparently being responsible for the majority of TS accidents in the US)."
Here I'll have to comment again. IMHO the Sawstop suffers from not being supplied with a Euro-style high-low sliding rip fence plate. The sort of thing which is fitted to the Felder and TSS. That sliding fence plate allows it to be slid back into the "short" position and kickbacks are much less frequent with a "short position" rip fence than with the Biesmeyer-type rip fence simply because there is no chance of work jamming between the rip fence and the blade - one common cause of kickbacks even if there is a riving knife in place. In addition the Euro-style high-low fence, when used in the low position allows narrow rips to be done with the crown guard in place. The fact that Euro saws are designed to be used with the crown guard in place at almost all times means that you have an intrinsically safer working environment. The TSS also appears to have a power-off brake - maybe not significant at first sight, but many accidents on table saws actually occur at run-down time when the operator switches off then leans over the saw to clear-away debris or small components and accidentally contacts the still-spinning blade.
The only time the TSS is going to be noticeably less safe than the SawStop is when cutting housings (dados) with a dado head - a job which is frankly much safer to do on the radial arm saw than it will ever be on a table saw IMHO
Scrit
Edited 9/8/2007 11:36 am by Scrit
Brad,
I just bought and started to use the TSS. That seems like a fair price for the used one, IMHO.
Just make sure that it is the newer model, because the little tweeks are excellent. Also, does it have the scoring option? Does it have the positive stop angle table?
I would be happy to answer any questions. In my opionion, the slider is a HUGE time and aggravation saver. With that much cabinetry to do, buy the slider and order a lift of pre finished maple ply and go go go.
joe p
With a little compromise, maybe you can get a SawStop/TSS hybrid...sort of. 3hp should be plenty of power...if you were to get the 3hp SS, and apply the savings to a slider...well, you see where I'm going.
How's that saying go...Fool me once, shame on you...fool me twice, shame on me!
Brad,
I have done what some of the others have alluded to: I put a slider on my Powermatic 66. But I put Laguna's Pro Sliding Table attachment on my saw - this is the same slider Laguna uses on the TSS.
My 66 was only 2 years old with very,very light use when I bought it. I couldn't justify going out and spending $4000 on a new saw just yet, however, I am planning to get the Sawstop sometime in the upcoming 2 years. But I wanted a sliding attachment that was better than the excalibur/exactor, and the Jessem only has 36" of travel, so crosscutting a full sheet with it is out of the question. The Laguna slider fit the bill.
This will ultimately put you over your $4000 or so budget, but the combination of the sawstop and a very well made slider will be a combination that can't be beat. When I get the sawstop, I will switch it over from the powermatic and sell the powermatic to recoup some of my expense on the new saw.
Good luck,
Lee
W O W.
I hadn't even considered it (the Laguna slider that is). That really is the best of both worlds. Anyone know where there is a Laguna sliding table for sale?
Brad,
I bought mine from Laguna. It was about $300 less than the current price, I believe they had an increase after I placed my order. IIRC, the excalibur with 60" crosscut is about $900, to put things into perspective (but I have used an excalibur and it doesn't hold a candle to this thing)
Heres the link:
http://www.lagunatools.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=48
I will say the customer service side of dealing with Laguna has not been top notch, but nowhere near as bad as some of the horror stories I have heard in the last year or two. Anyhow, that's my plan, Laguna slider on the Sawstop - within the next 2 years.
I must say, the slider is very nice! Very robust, zero play.
Lee
Brad:Not to rain on the parade, but there appear to be some drawbacks to the set up shown in Lee's (Mapleman) photograph.First, the slider appears to be about 20 inches to the left of the blade, which will limit it's usefulness, notwithstanding that the fence appears to ride over the cast iron to the left of the blade. Typically the slider passes to the immediate left of the blade with the off cut gong to the right. In the set up shown, how will you use the slider for cuts less than say 30 inches? In these instances, isn't the slider just acting as a miter gauge?Second, if the slider table is not co-planar with the cast iron, your edges will not be a perfect 90 degrees because the work piece will be very slightly tilted if it rests on both the slide and the cast iron. And it cannot be co-planar, because the fence has to ride over the cast iron.As was pointed out by Scrit, the slider should support most of the weight, but clearly that will only happen for much longer pieces.It seems to me that the saw will be used mostly in the traditional way, i.e., with the fence on the right of the blade annd the off-cut on the left. I rarely have to use the fence in this position, except for ripping pieces less than about 10 inches because the fence is positioned about 7 inches away from the blade. Jigs can be made to overcome this, but I just put the normal fence on the machine.Of course, these drawbacks may prove to be minor inconveniences, but I don't think you should go into this thinking you will get a fully-functioning slider, with all its benefits, a la the TSS (or Felder), which has the slider immediately to the left of the blade.Regards,Hastings
A true slider can be a joy to use simply because almost all cuts, rip as well as crosscut, are made with the material on and carried by the sliding table. In addition the slider can also square waney edge stock, etc. Because almost all the work is done on the slider they tend to be intrinsically safer as you rarely need to be anywhere need the blade. A half size (4ft stroke) slider, one which cannot do an 8ft rip, is less useful and less accurate as long rips will need to be done using the rip fence. The sort of bastardised hybrids being shown by people like Rikon at AFWS are neither fish nor foul because the slider runs well outboard from the blade. To my mind they are not much better than a conventional table saw/sliding outrigger combi as they miss the essential point about the slider, which is that all the table to the left of the blade moves
Scrit
Scrit:How right you are! I just love using my Felder. It makes the typical US-made table saw look medieval!Regards,Hastings
All excellent points ...
The principal desire for the slider is to work with sheet goods faster and more efficiently. That is why Laguna's slider is so appealing. The desire for a SawStop is simple - ER visits are a damned waste of time (I have awesome insurance, so it isn't as much of a $$ thing as a pain / time thing). In my shop I've finished installing my ClearVue cyclone (which I love) and even with a very basic connection to the Bosch contractor's saw the dust reduction is amazing. So I really wouldn't use the slider all of the time, just some of the time.
I have the EZ system now (competitor to the Festool system). While the claims of using the EZ system are that you can use it as quickly and easily as a UNI saw, I have to say that having used / owned both I'll take a cabinet saw with an outfeed table any day when it comes to knocking out lots of precise cuts. Yes, you may argue that the EZ is as accurate as the user... 'nuff said. Hence the TSS / SS conundrum. The cut table for a EZ / Festool is necessary and a huge waste of space when you aren't using it, even the folding kind. While I really like the idea of moving the saw and not the sheet, I've made enough small errors that the consistent accuracy of a repeat, rapid cuts on a table saw with a fence is very appealing.
The real booger to the EZ guide is the massive ammount of sawdust it creates. To date all projects I've done (a kitchen built custom on site and a bathroom vanity) I'll say that the system works, works well, and is very very flexible. Unfortuneately, the two cuts I've made in an enclosed area created such an epic mess that I can't see how any system other than Festool could keep the dust down. I am considering changing from EZ to Festool, but it seems kind of silly to have to set up and run another vac + hose combo with a 5 hp cyclone just 10 feet away. I've considered running a separate vac trunk overhead so that the cyclone could be attached to the Festool saw and guide. However, after experimenting with hoses smaller than 6" (what my cyclone system is connected to) the suction is less than awesome (and if you go too small then the cyclone gets starved and doesn't work).
So here I am... The optimal would be to have a HUGE shop with all of the above. Not an option. Heck, even if I could afford both I couldn't fit them in the space I have.
Brad:If accurate sheet stock is your requirement, get the Laguna TSS, which is a proper slider. Once you get used to it, and keep the riving knife and crown guard in place, you will find that your extremities will never go near the blade.Think of the euro slider and the saw stop as different solutions to the same problem. The euro focusses on prevention, while the saw stop focuses on the cure, should the unthinkable happen. The euro's have excellent braking systems so the blade stops almost immediately, thereby eliminating a major source of risk. I saw in another post that a new Powermatic takes 30 to 40 seconds to stop rotating! Furthermore, euro's have cut out switches that immobilize the machine once you open a compartment door- nice!As Scrit said, a real slider is a joy to use. Why not get all those benefits every time you use it, as opposed to the saw stop, which you might never benefit from?Regards,Hastings
I fail to realize the commotion over the fact that the part of the saw top immediately next to the blade does not move. Basically, that seems to some to be the deciding factor over getting a TSS and getting a SS with the TSS sliding attachment.
I have the sliding attachment set about .012 - .015 higher than the table. In theory, if I am making a cut and the part of the lumber not supported by the sliding carriage will sag .015 I don't think this is going to make a bit of difference in the squareness of the cut. If it does, I can't see it with a starrett machinist square.
Also, there is little to no "drag" with the carriage not adjacent to the blade. A full sheet of plywood glides across the blade effortlessly with a push of one finger on the carriage, as does a small piece.
Also, there is 12" of table left of the blade, not 20" as mentioned earlier.
As for extremeties never going near the blade with a euro slider, I don't buy that. Maybe if all that was cut was sheet stock, all day every day. The TSS is a half slider - 8 ft rips are out of the question. There will still be a need to run the saw with the rip fence for cutting (ripping) face frames, etc. There is still the same dangers as a regular saw, they are just diminished when cutting sheets of ply on the carriage- because you can be a safe distance from the blade.
Let me be the first to say that I am not trying to sell Brad on my idea. He asked the question "SS or TSS". I merely put another option out there for him - one that I have explored myself. It's not necessarily for everybody. But I see the same thing with slider owners all over this forum and others - they feel that the slider is the only way to go. Sliders are great, but not for everyone.
My point is to Brad - explore all of your options. Determine (if you can) how much sheet stock you will be using vs. how much solid stock in the near future. Is this upcoming kitchen the only job you forsee using a large amount of sheet stock on? I have been building furniture as a hobby since 1990. I have been building cabinets full time as a career for almost 3 years. I just got the sliding attachment recently. Using sheet stock on a conventional saw is not out of the question. The slider makes it a little less taxing and a little more accurate. But it's not Gospel.
Oh, and check the price on a new TSS: $4195 w/o scoring, $4695 with. Plus shipping. $4000 for a used one seems a bit high. And ask why they are selling? I can vouch for the fact that the cust. service absolutely sucks. In fact, if you were dead set on a real slider, I would explore Felder and Mini Max first, and see if you could get a fair deal on a new one.
Good luck,
Lee
I have a TSS and so far no complaints about Laguna's CS. I agree that ripping long boards on a short slider isn't any different than a cabinet saw however anything up to the length of the slider stroke can be accurately and quickly ripped by putting together a parallel positioner.
The argument for a GSS loses it's steam when used against a slider: IMHO it's easier to tip a sheet of ply onto a slider than a lightweight cutting table and pushing it through is almost effortless; no tearout whatsoever with scoring; dust control is excellent.
I hate MDF - heavy and the 'brown flour' drives me crazy! But - I just purchased sevaral more sheets (it is REALLY good for some things.) and reduced it to size with the Festool "saw-guide-extractor" combo. I was shocked to find not on speck of dust. I might even change my mind about MDF.You can rationalize the extractor for use with your ROS and the 'power on' feature. Clean shop.Frosty"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
I think I've located a used Laguna slider ... doesn't seem to have the clip on support table though. Your Laguna 66 looks to have it, and Laguna has it on sale this month for $175. If I go your route with a SS, how useful is the clip on support table? is it very rigid? Would you pay the extra for it again?
Regardless of which saw I select I'll need to add a mobility kit to it so the saw is out of the way against the wall when I am assembling projects. It looks like the Laguna slider doesn't really take up that much more space if you twist the fence 90 deg. - is this possible?
Thanks in advance, and to everyone with your great comments.
I have two of the clip on support tables - they're very sturdy and worth the money as far as I'm concerned. I think you'd have trouble handling heavy panels without them. No matter what your opinion of Laguna's CS or level of sophistication no one can argue that their product isn't at least industrial strength.
The crosscut fence is easily removed, I've had no problems but have seen some complaints about realigning it. The fix for that is the positive stop miter table.
Good luck.
Brad,
I agree with Polarsea - I have 2 of the clip on support tables as well. One came with the slider and 1 I bought. The one that came with the slider is a tad heavier - but you can't go wrong with it. Plenty of support for large panels. Since I bought one when I ordered the sliding attachment, the salesman discounted it to an even $100. It's worth $175 to have one, though.
The fence (4ft.) is easily removeable, and there is a small piece of machined steel which helps you re-align the fence when you take it off. Taking the fence off is as easy as loosening the ratchet knob and tall round steel post on the miter head.
BTW, how much for the used sliding table?
Lee
Mapleman,
You may want to get the positive stop table from laguna for your slider. I ordered it with mine and I am really glad I did. I think the mitre guage they supply is less than accurate, but the positive table is dead on and repeatable, and movable. a real real good addition also.
just a tip,
joe p
Hey Joe (Isn't that a Hendrix song? ;)
I agree that the positive stop table is sweet. I'm planning to get that at some point. And yes, that stock miter gauge head does leave a little (lot) to be desired. Looks like they just dipped mine in grey paint, and then threw it across the floor so as to chip big spots down to the metal. All the other parts of the assembly (including the legs) are finished flawlessly. Maye they are subbing that part out to malaysia? Ha Ha.
Lee
I am also thinking about adding the laguna sliding table to my saw. How pleased are you with the table now that you have used it. How difficult was it to install on you saw and are you pleased with the accurracy?
Dean,
I'll start with the install. The "manual" (if that's what you would call it) was a joke. About 8 pages of xerox copies with extremely bad/dark photos. It wasn't terribly difficult to figure out, but I think it could have been better - and the salesman agreed. To mount the carriage to the saw you will have to drill 4 holes in the cabinet, 2 on either side of the saw, to mount some heavy steel brackets. these brackets hold the brunt of the weight, and there are two legs to help support the carriage. The carriage possibly could be used without the legs - but it weighs about 200#. I found after mounting the carriage to the saw that there is no "play" between the carriage and the saw. Push, pull, whatever, it doesn't seem to budge. If you decide to get it and you can't figure something out, drop me a line.
As for the slider itself - well, I have absolutely no complaints. The specs say a 50" crosscut, but right now I can get about 55", and if I moved the miter head back a few inches in it's groove I could get a few more. Laguna supplies two of the clamps like the one pictured on the miter head (one for the miter head and one that can be moved/placed anywhere along the two grooves machined into the carriage table). These are very stout. The photo I posted on this thread is actually a stock photo from Laguna - I have some (bad) photos of the slider on my saw in another thread. Note that the clamps and steel bar used to push the carriage are unfinished steel in the photo on this thread- they are now coming with a black oxide finish - salesman told me that was to help prevent rusting thus the change at the factory. Black oxide will still rust, but it holds up a little better than unfinished steel. Also, the clip on support table is an option so I bought one, however the factory packed one in the crate with my carriage assembly, so I have 2. I like having the extra support. The salesman said there was some talk about the factory including them with the slider, but he had not heard anything definite. He told me to keep the extra one if I wanted it. My point is, if you want one, don't pay extra for it, as there will likely be one included with the slider. If you want two, you can pick up an extra separately.
As for the accuracy, it's very, very good. I calibrated it with a 4 X 4 sheet of plywood, cut all the way around and then cut a sliver off the 5th side - it was within about .002 along the length (4 ft). I haven't removed the fence and re-attached it yet (this is pretty easy to do) to check and see how well it holds this accuracy. As Joepez stated, the miter table option will allow you to repeat precise angle cuts and re-mount the fence with a greater degree of precision.
One last thing - about the motor cover. Depending on your saw you may have to cut the motor cover slightly to accommodate the carriage assembly. I'm attaching another pic (of Laguna's) to show what I mean. I taped over the hole to keep from sucking air with dust collection. It's not pretty, but it works. I'm not sure, but I think the salesman said that was only necessary with the powermatic 66. You can also see the brackets that hold the carriage up in this photo.
All in all, I think it was a good investment - a bit pricey - but the excalibur/exactor doesn't hold a candle to this thing. I didn't really find any other add-on that was the quality that this thing was. I did come across a Jet on Amazon but there was mention of having to weld brackets on the saw base to mount the thing to so I didn't research it tremendously.
Good luck and if you have any other questions drop me a line.
Lee
Oops! Here are the photos:
I have used the Sawstop and its a very nice saw. Do you need the 5hp motor, maybe a 3hp motor and a sliding table would be a good choice.
Troy
As long as you can count to ten at the end of the day, you would be a winner with either saw. Go with the one you really want, not what we think.
Regards,
Sean
Perhaps you can have the best of both worlds. It appears that your 'medical memories' are still frsh - and rightly so, important to you.
Why not go with the SS and a Festool circular saw and guide track. (Or other Mfg.) I get "better than table saw quality" cuts and don't have to heft full sheets of goods up onto a TS.
Frosty
"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
I think you can get that SawStop for less money... I am upgrading to one and have a fairly small shop where a slider did not come into the picture as there just is not room... I am gettign the 5 horse single phase but I am also going to get the infeed and outfeed tables from these guys... http://ezee-feed.com/. It may help you to make the decision. The one thing I am a little frusterated with is that SawStop does not have a mobile base (YET) you can get the HTC? one but the one I really want is theirs... It is said to have awesome casters and be built to handle anything while the HTC? one is kind of weak.
Drew
Brad,
What kind of cutting are you planning on with the slider? As was mentioned, you'll need a very long slider to rip a 4x8 sheet. With the Felder, most people buy a 9' slider for ripping sheet goods, which means that you'll need at least 8' before the blade and 8' after it to rip a panel (which is true of a SS too). If you're buying the slider to rip long sheets, I might be tempted to go with the Festool, due to your limited shop space. You can put the panel down on a piece of solid foam insulation and cut it within about a 9' area.
If you're considering it for cutting small pieces (less than 12" cut), then I usually use my SCMS. If your looking for lots of crosscuts, then I'd look for a used Felder. As was stated, the slider runs along the left side of the blade (maybe 1/8" space between the slider table and the blade?).
One factor that you mentioned was a small shop. If you got a used Felder or Minimax combination machine, you would need less shop space for your tools. Kelly Mehler has a very good article in a recent Popular Woodworking issue. He is known as the "Table saw guy" as he wrote a book and did a video. He has switched over to Felders for his shop/woodworking school for safety reasons.
I purchased an older Felder for about $6k, selling my jet cabinet saw, portable planer and 6" jointer. I got a 12" jointer/planer on the other side of the Felder. I also got a 3hp shaper with tilting spindle that uses the sliding table. If you priced out a 12" jointer it would be about $2.5k. The shaper with tilting spindle and slider would be another $1.5k. I got a 4' slider with two clip on support tables, which are in constant use. Ripping a 4x8 is a pain (conventional use of the rip fence), but the crosscutting is great. I've crosscut 4x8 sheets and the clip on support tables make all the difference. I'm probably going to get a Festool 55 with guide rail for the long rip cuts. The other thing I like is that the Felder rip fence is like the Delta Unifence. It has a 6" tall side and a 1/2" tall side. You can rip narrow pieces with it down. You can pull back the fence, so that it stops just before the blade. I use this as a crosscut stop in conjunction with the crosscut table.
All this, plus it's easier to move than my Jet w/ 52" side table was. Look at the photo. The part on the bottom left is the yoke, where a wheeled lever is attached, so that it can be moved.
Edited 9/19/2007 1:42 am ET by RodWolfy
Edited 9/19/2007 1:42 am ET by RodWolfy
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