A friend was admiring some oak furniture we inherited from my parents-in-law, particularly the scalloped surfaces which I know were made using a long handled adz swung between the legs whilst standing over the furniture parts. Perhaps foolishly I agreed to make a small table in oak with similar surfaces.
I have often thought about trying to get the making of this surface into my skill-set but never fancied the adz, which I suspect takes a great deal of practice and may result (worse-case scenario) in loss of a foot.
I vaguely remember a previous discussion about such scalloped surfaces in which it was proposed that a scrub plane could possibly acheve the same effect. However I cannot find anything now (the search engine is a tricky blighter) so here I am asking the question:
Is it feasible to use a scrub plane to produce a surface scalloped smoothly and evenly enough to emulate the well-formed surfaces evident in the surfaces of adz-made furniture?
I get the impression (I don’t have one) that a scrub plane will hog off stuff but not necessarily leave a fine surface or even allow a regular pattern of scallops to be achieved.
The surfaces I am trying to emulate have scallops that are very shallow and have a typical diameter of around 1.5 – 2 inches. Some are slightly ovoid and the whole surface is scalloped at random but in a regular fashion, if you know what I mean.
Lataxe
Replies
Lataxe,
I have just been over my bench top with such a setup and reckon that you can do this. There was an article in FWW a few years ago about a french provincialial hutch that decribes the technique. 99% sure the diamter wont be 2" - more like 6"-8" with the iron set to get the 1 1/2" scallop. I used an old #5 my brother had given to my daughter when she was 9 (giving tools to my kids is how he diposes of the bits he doesnt want from box lots at auction - he made a mistake last yer giving a very nice #4 1/2 C to my eldest). This plane had been set up for just such a job and I left it that way.
Dave
PS. Bech top not good enough yet.
Hi Master L,
If I was going to produce more than one piece with the textured surface, I would opt for the Festool power planer with the scallop blades.
For one piece, well, I would use either my long adze or, most likely, my carvers adz (though it creates shorter scallops). Not for the faint of heart, though. And there would be the inevitable clean-up where there was breakage of the fibers here and there. Very sharp is key to reduce the tendency of fiber breakage. Clean-up is with a large carving gouge.
One could probably just use a sculpture's carving gouge for the whole process. I haven't tried it, but I have textured the backgrounds of signs that way.
I've tried the hand plane method once. It worked OK, clean-up was about the same as with the adz, but the adz is much faster. It should also be said that the surfaces I used the adz on were of a rustic nature.
Take care, Mike
There's a current thread that I think is doing exactly what you're talking about except it looks like they're not using a scrub but a modified smoother with curved blade?
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=36701.1
If you build it he will come.
I don't believe the original surface was made with an adz. Adzes are best used across the grain and they leave very very subtle troughs that can be easily distinguished by their wide widths.
Now my experience is only american and if you have a table from 1500 all bets are off.
There's no technical reason to leave deep and short troughs (gutter,s Moxon called them) in the work. Its not an indication of the age of a piece. I've seen this at craft shows and I think the look is kitschy. Its an exaggeration of the surface left by a jack plane's curved blade. You can't always see the gutters in my work. You may be able to feel them. If you held a straight edge across the surface, they would be immediately apparent.
I have more curve in my plane irons than most. I think the sag on my jack plane is .060 or so. So try curving one of your jack plane's irons and go to it.
Adam
Lataxe, duckey,
I wonder, how old is the piece you have from the in-laws? Your description doesn't sound much like a "true" adzed surface, as I've seen, anyway. More like what I have seen on modern "rustic" furniture made commercially. Adzing was typically used on architectural elements like beams, rather than boards. But maybe the adze is used differently over there in Old Blighty. Using an adze isn't all that dangerous, if you keep your feet well apart! Control is a bit problematic; in my limited adzing experience, I've had some success by bracing elbows against my gut, and swinging mostly with wrist movement. And choosing straight grained stock to be adzed helps a lot.
A scrub, (fore, jack) plane will, by nature of being pushed across the work, leave furrows as long as the stroke used, not scallops. Short stroking tends to leave "dawks", abrupt ends with a bit of the shaving still attached.
I wonder if your surface effect can't be achieved with a right-angle grinder, followed up with a tipped over randon-orbit sander...
Ray
Ray and all,
Thanks for all the helpful replies.
The furniture I have is made by Albert Jeffries and his lads, in the 1970s. Albert was an apprentice of The Mouseman and had a cabinetmaking shop in Thirsk.
Albert and Co. did use the long-handled adzes to make their scallops, which are quite visible and as previously described. (Unless my father-in-law was lying about standing there watching them make his table top; not likely). Perhaps Adam would like to see the receipts, which we keep so we can gasp at how cheap things were just 30 short years ago?
I've used the long-handled adz to thickness a chunk of green wood for a rustic stool myself, during a green woodworking course a couple of years ago. The adz had a 3 foot handle, a heavy head and a very large radius to the blade (i.e. it looked almost straight but wasn't). The expert who showed us how to swang the thang could cut clean and regular scallops in his greenwood slabs. The rest of us chipped away somewhat ineffectually.
And I can't imagine the clean adzing is as easy with seasoned oak as it is with a nice wet chunk of sycamore.
Maybe a Festo planer is the best solution - but have you seen the price! (And another big wodge for the curved planer head, you know).
I suspect a large, shallow gouge is the best compromise and I shall look for a suitable tool. I have gouged out a bum seat in that same green wood stool with a gouge having a greater radius/curve and a narrower width of blade. It provides a nice texture but not the scallops.
As you say, the scrub plane is only going to scallop nicely in two dimension but I do not want the troughs.
Lataxe
If you do opt for an adz on that piece of rock known as seasoned English Oak, repeatedly wet the surface with mineral spirits (whatever y'all call it there if that's the wrong term). It dries off relatively slowly and will moisten the surface fibers well enough to cleanly slice with a sharp adz.'Course, the smell may not be worth it on a warm day...Take care, Mike
Lataxe,
Oh dear, I've insulted the father in law's veracity. Of course, he wouldn't tell an untruth, even regarding the dowry...
Ah, the 70's! When we were but youngsters listening to the Beach Boys, Jethro Tull, Jimi and Janice, and wading thru a waist deep mire of sentimental rubbish about how things were done in the old days. I'm not at all familiar with Messrs Mouseman and Jeffries, (forgive me in advance if I impugn his furniture) but there was a fellow building furniture near here around that time whose articles looked more like Walt Disney's versions, a la the Sorcerer's Apprentice, of period furniture, than the real thing. Why use a plane when you have an adze, why use a small brass catch when a huge bulbous wooden knob can be turned. Why use a smoothing plane to remove tool marks, let's add a surfeit of extraneous ones, just so folks'll know it's handmade! Ah! Break a corner off, then it'll really look old.
For your seasoned oak, I am imagining an incrementally adjusted swing arm on double roller bearings for your heavily weighted adze--think "The Pit and the Pendulum". Set the thing in ponderous motion, crank it downward til it just kisses the oak, SWISSSH!-- then one third of a turn more on the crank, SWARF!! Move the plank ahead a few inches on the back swing, stand back, SWARF!! another beautifully arc-ed shaving lifts and floats away, move the plank! SWARF!! Whew,, that was close, barely got away that time, gotta be more careful next tim- MOVE THE PLANK!! SW---ARRRGH!!
Ray
"I'm not at all familiar with Messrs Mouseman and Jeffries..."
Still in business Ray, with a mouse carved into every piece somewhere. Slainte.
http://www.robertthompsons.co.uk//index.phpRichard Jones Furniture
Thanks Richard,
I used to read their book, Goodnight Moon, to my boys at bedtime. Must have been by them, there was a mouse hidden on every page. :-))
Me, I put a little pinetree by my name when I sign a piece. But it's not hidden...
Ray
I am sure a scorp would give you the result you seek, failing which a sagger makers tool might be tried.
David,
It would have to be a big scorpe.......although I did consider using an inshave (but it lacks control and cannot be malleted like a chisel).
That other thing you mention must be the subject of some research. It's the first time I've seen the term. Would you care to elaborate?
Lataxe
I once stood next to a 'famous maker' Windsor chair 'expert' and on a friendly bet proceeded to saddle a chair seat with a wide-swept gouge in about 2/3rds the amount of time it took him to adze the thing and mine required far less work with the travisher and scraper to bring it to finish smoothness. When considering the time to go all the way from un-saddled to smooth and ready for a finish, using a carving gouge cuts the process in half. And it's a lot easier for a beginner to learn to use the gouge. Drawing attention to grain direction and a few tips on the mallet work and a twelve year old could saddle a Windsor chair seat with a gouge that rivals that of a pro chairmaker.
I've heard through the grapevine that this fine fellow now uses a gouge on chair commissions but still demonstrates to the public using an adze. Go figure.
You can achieve whatever texture you desire (however ersatz it might be) with a few carving tools and you will have a lot more fun doing it.
Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.
Edited 7/9/2007 2:58 pm by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
Poster,
I am happy that you confirm the idea of gouge over adz, especially as I am a 15 year old (in my head) so probably not to be trusted with an adz, which I will inflict an inavertant injury with.
Of course, I coud take Ray's advice but he is a tease and also ignorant of them fine British oak furniture-makers (albeit they were a bit medieval, as he suggests). He also seems agin' the toolmarks (not the thing on frou frou I suppose).
Is it possible to recommend a number for such a gouge? I am a carving dunce and need a firm directive.
Lataxe
On the Sheffield system a no. 5 or 6 sweep as wide as you can afford... or maybe a no. 6 fishtail again as wide as you can find/afford. Or a combination of all of these.
If you are looking for a really light scallop then back up to a no. 4 In fact a no. 4 curved gouge might be perfect for the effect you are trying to achieve.
Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post: Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.
Edited 7/10/2007 6:49 am by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
Don't think you will have the control of a gouge to do a proper job of scalloping. We use a modified iron on smoothing planes and we do have the Festool plane as well. We just did 5'000 sq ft of flooring for a client. Yes, it all went in one house! Long ago we modified a Makita 3.5 power plane by rounding the blade for faux adze work. We also do real adze work on timbers for clients who want that look.
Here is what I did. I kept the scallops short, but it would have been easy to make the more Adze like.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Mike,
Your post must have got through the old fashioned aether as well as the electronic stuff, as I had tentatively chosen that very gouge in your photo from the Tilgear catalogue. It's the biggest I could find at 60mm wide.
Looking at your scallops and then comparing them to the adzed furniture we have here, I am thinking the number 2 sweep rather than the no 5 might be best.....? The scallops from the adz are very shallow indeed - only just discernible when the light rakes them.
***
Richard J - thanks for the link to the mouseman site showing the firm and it's classic designs are still in production. That trestle table and chairs is the very beast we have, albeit with slightly different profile on the legs and a Yorkshire Rose carved into the seat backs. There is also a large bookshelf, sideboard, small tables and so forth.
On the Albert Jeffries stuff every surface, not just the table top, is adzed to final finish. They seem to have used the adz as a smoothing plane, with possibly some sanding to round over any sharp intersections between the adzed scallops.
I confess to liking their straightforward style a lot but have to say the chairs are not comfortable - made for a look rather than for long sitting sessions. They are slowly being replaced with greenwood ladderback chairs made from local oak, to the Mike Abbott pattern.
***
Ray: I know these simple items lack frou-frou. However one feels that a frou-froued seat back would be even worse than a Yorkshire Rose. And as for dusting away the crumbs and gravy splashes from all those crevices, indents, acanthus leaves and the like - well, we would be forever vacuuming the thang. Also, small furry animals would come to live in the cavities, dining on our detritus.
**
Thanks again, all, for the help and advice.
Lataxe
Lataxe,
Actually, adze marks put in for the sake of their subtle decorative qualities, aside from being put there to prove that it's hand work, are very close to frou-frou in their own right, aren't they? But easier to dust, I agree. That just means it'll take 'em that much longer to acquire "patina" (mouse detritus).
To each his own frou-frou,
Ray, who is of the opinion that flat ought to be flat, and carved, carved
I know that you are knowlageable so forgive me if you already know this. The Adze only works well on green wood. When used on dried lumber it causes horrible tearout and tears splinters out. I used that gouge on Oak and it was VERY hard to control the cut.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Mike,
I'm sure your right that the scalloping in seasoned oak will be no easy matter compared to dealing with greenwood, which contains its own lubrication and is quite compliant to the demands of the axe. Nevertheless your picture, as well as the experiences related by Mike Wenzloff and other in this thread, lead me to think gouging of seasoned oak is worth trying.
Perhaps the best approach will be to take very shallow cuts across the grain. after wetting the surface. No doubt there will still be a need to sand, scrape or otherwise fair away the inevitable tearout or other ruptures. Still, I will hone the gouge to scarey sharp and make confident jabs with it.
Happily the table I have promised is a small affair with a top of maybe a couple of square feet. Of course, if the scallop-by-gouge is successful I will feel obliged to do the legs and aprons too. But what would woodworking be like if everything was easy? :-) It will be nice when it stops.
Today a scallop; tomorrow a claw grasping a bollock. Any excuse to buy chisels, as the ladywife might accuse, smiling with that knowing leer of hers that lays my motives bare.
Lataxe, would-be carver and frou-frou maker.
Lataxe,
I've followed this discussion and I think you have it all wrong. Instead I would place the tabletop on a solid cementatious slab and get yourself a large sledge hammer and beat the be-Jesus out of it thus creating the scallops you so desire.
I think it would add a certain charm to the piece, not to mention it would be unique! I've also spent a great deal of money on replacing handles in the process with only kindling as my reward.............
Also, I think you might want to consider a carved acanthus leaf in the center, just to keep it traditional.
Now could you please offer a definition of frou-frou?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 7/11/2007 8:30 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Edited 7/11/2007 8:32 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Edited 7/11/2007 8:37 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
"frou-frou"? Definitions?
Windows all dressed up like a cheap Edwardian tart with layers and layers of curtains, net curtains, and other swaggy things, like tasselled tie-backs and elaborate cast iron hooks and curtain rails. That's frou-frou.
Double or Queen size beds with 30 cushions arranged in diminishing size in two neat rows from the headboard to the footboard. But don't ever dare suggesting you actually rest your head on any of those cushions. They're for looks only. That's frou-frou.
It's the look favoured by air-headed, ditzy, blonde, perma tanned, female interior decorators with immaculate red ice pick nails in America. Note that I did say interior decorator, not interior designer. Interior decorator's speciality is an overbearing manner, paper, paint, fabrics, swags, and a fine line in bullsh*t. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Richard,
Hmmmm, Edwardian tarts.....the idea of frou-frou is growing on me a bit! (Only lookin').
Of course, it was that Mike Wenzloff who mentioned he was thinking of carving some frou frou furniture, so he must now take the blame for the association of such stuff with ladies of the night from olden times.
Nevertheless, the term seems accurate enough. :-)
".....air-headed, ditzy, blonde, perma tanned, female interior decorators with immaculate red ice pick nails......."
Please post the pictures; or at least the stories of how you met them and what subsequently happned, particularly concerning the red icepick nails (shudder).
Lataxe the hotcollared
It was, as Andy hoped I'd confirm, during my ten year sojourn living in Texas I met these fearsome women. Hair coiffed iron hard, bleached to straw, and piled high. The only thing harder than the hair was the face-- botoxed rigid, eyebrows like inverted U's, and a permanent unsmiling trout pout. Those bright red ice-pick nails enabled them to slash, and gouge, and scramble unbelievably high up the social scale.
A terrifying sight is the determined female inferior desecrator at work which, as Ray pointed out, is their alternative name as they prise money for old rope from credulous victims, er, I mean appreciative customers.
I'm still too traumatised from my rare meetings with them to relate the stories properly.
I'd better pull my tongue out of my cheek, get ma' coat, and leave quietly, ha, ha. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Yikes, Richard, at least you could mention that when you talk about America, you're really talking about Texas.
-Andy
Richerd,
My brother coined the term "inferior desecrators" for that subclass of designer you so eloquently described.
Cheers,
Ray
"t's the look favoured by air-headed, ditzy, blonde, perma tanned, female interior decorators with immaculate red ice pick nails in America."HEY! Quit picking on our ditzy blondes interior detonators! They're a lot of fun to mess with, and nice to look at, sometimes (yes, I'm thinking of a specific one). Decorators and designers don't like what I sell and install (A/V systems and home theat(er/re)s. They don't want to see speakers at all and this is a total conflict with my goal, which is providing the best sound. Dinky little POS speakers sound like garbage and hiding the good ones behind cloth or anything else alters their sound, regardless of the cloth being called "acoustically transparent", which it's not.I don't do frou-frou.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
highfigh,
Check this out:
http://www.yamaha.com/yec/YSP1/idx_ysp1000.htm
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Those are great for situations where larger speaker placement is impossible but for a large room or high SPL, you gotta move some air.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Not that these fit some people's idea of high-fi, but they do fit the idea of..."for a large room or high SPL, you gotta move some air" [g]Nor are they small-room nor interior designer friendly.http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/temp/k-horns.jpgTake care, Mike
"But ours go to eleven."In the right room, with the right music and equipment behind them, those are hard to beat. I wouldn't recommend them for an 11'x16' room, unless there's going to be some demo happening.Sometimes, I wish I had kept my 30" Electro-Voice woofers.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Is that a C28 you're holding up?------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Yep, it is.I had 2 C28s and a C26. Still have the C26 and a few MC 250 amps. Well, still have a few Dyna tube pre-amps. And a couple turntables still inhabit the house. Though my AMC single disc CD player fried a resistor. Need to get around to fixing that.The Harmon-Kardon Citation V tube amp in the picture--which was the sweetest tube amp I had rebuilt--is also gone. Ah, the days.Good eyes, btw. Take care, Mike
Still got my C28, sold the C32 to help pay for the C35. Still got my 2102 but sold the 2105 long ago. Should have kept them all. You look very happy in the picture! Right now I'm waiting for a MC2500 to come along at the right price.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Ha--I think I had imbibed a bit prior that picture. It's really a composed picture that was for a newsletter. Good ol' Photoshop and different elements on separate layers.All the stuff that I included in the picture were in various places in a very large room. I didn't include the picture of the wall of albums because as a background it was too busy. So the two 4' cabinets behind me (my main rotational place to store albums for use) was what I used, plus a few boxes of transcription discs and 78s.Most of the tube stuff and corner horns I had since the late 1960s to early 1970s. We moved to a log cabin in the mid-1970s and so everything went to storage (no electricity). The MAC stuff came along in 1989 to 1991 after we moved back to civilization.I'll probably sell of the rest of the MAC, tube stuff and a turntable or two and keep the lighter-weight stuff I use now. Haffler amp, the same Parasound pre-amp. Heck, might even sell the K-Horns and most of the 12k pieces of music. I have so little time to listen it depresses me to see it all go unused.The MAC stuff is neat though. Heck, maybe the Parasound will go away and I'll keep the C26. If for no other reason I like the colors of the lighted panel.The 2500 is an awesome amp. I like the looks of the black panel vs. the brushed silver ones. And again, I like the color of the meter display on 'em. Pretty shallow, huh? Sonics wise, they are the same, though. Too much amp for the K-horns. The Klipsch are happy with a 50 watt tube, though.Well, back to emails. Take care, Mike
Black panel is the one I'm watching for. My favorite speakers are no where near as efficient as your horns so power espescially for the transients is a necessity. Fortunately or unfortunately my listening room is only 12X20 these days. One of these days as things get caught up I will aquire a couple of your saws I have had my eye on. I consider them to be the Mcintosh's of the saw world. Take care------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Bob , I'm no expert but I think it's pronounced " frue as in true "Frue Frue"
At least that's the way I've heard it .
dusty
Cutting across the grain will certaintly be problematic. Cut in the direction of the grain but try to cut in the "up hill" direction. That way the tear out will work for you. Shallow cuts until the desired effect was what worked for me. The piece that I carved was very wide and had grain in both directions. Major PITA.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
They have left Texas!Those blonds of such marvelous description (thank you Richard) currently are moving in, several houses away. Too much for us puritanical Bay Staters. I thank you all for the heads up. (no pun intended)Ron
Ron,
I suspect Richard just skimmed the surface.............
Notice how briefly his mention about his meetings with them??????
Come clean Richard!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
How much cleaner would you like me to get Bob? I've already been picked clean by those harpies, the inferior desecrators of this world. Those red talons cut deeply.
I'm keeping schtum. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Bro. Froe, I see several solutions in my soft gray matter. 1- shape a 2" plane iron to satisfy your shape. I would choose an older bailey style, original thinner iron, a longer sole means more stable a platform for control*. 2- shape a scraper plane blade as above, I have a LV -lots of platform there*. 3- A Clifton shave, they make a concave and a 2" convex, only $110 USD from highland woodworking in Atlanta Ga. no platform but could be reshaped to an arc of your choice*.
BTW, forget the adz as we would be in pain reading the medical reports.
* these all could be skewed on the cut to vary the arc for that craft style variance.
all the best ,Paddy
Paddy,
....And you can stop that teasin', ye plunger to the depths ye! (Incidentally, how is one made to walk the plank from a submarine, without revealing one's lurk by surfacing? Perhaps there is a cruel procedure with the tubes)?
It is the large gouge of shallow profile for me. Mike's picture of his gouged top is convincing. Also, I wish to have the largest gouge on the block, for psychological "reasons".
Lataxe, landlubber.
I believe that mine was the most expensive as well.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
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