I have narrowed my choice down to either a 10″ or 12″ Bosch SCMS or the new Delta twin laser saw CMS. I am leaning towards the Bosch 12″ but am a little leery do to flex in the blade when doing fine cuts. I am thinking that I will still do all my fine cutting either by hand or on the table saw but I would like to be able to take the saw with me on jobsites for doing installs. I am not looking at other brands as my mind is made up and I am only looking for feedback for owners of the saws I have mentioned.
Thanks,
Scott C. Frankland
“He who has the most tools may not win the race of life but he will sure make his wife look like a good catch when she goes to move on.”
Replies
"I am leaning towards the Bosch 12" but am a little leery do to flex in the blade when doing fine cuts."
If the flex is in the saw get a better saw. If the flex is in the blade get a better blade. No point not getting the maximum utility out of the machine because of the tooling that it comes with. I didn't care much for the thin-kerf blade that came with my SCMS (Makita LS1212) so I put the FS Tools HD Miter blade on it and never looked back. It goes through 10" wide 8/4 QSWO better that either of my friends 2 radials.
BTW I'd shine-on (sorry) the laser and get the better saw. I think time will tell us the lasers are just the marketing gimmick du jour. Most of what I've read says they're more useful for framers than for finish carpenters.
John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
Edited 7/2/2004 3:44 pm ET by ELCOHOLIC
I have heard that the 12" blades due to there large size are more prone to flexing in miter cuts. The laser feature is not a selling point with me but the over all fit and finish of the saw. No mater what I get it will spend as much time doing finish work as it will doing framing work. I have a RAS so being able to cross cut large pieces is to much of a concern either. What I do want is a saw that will last for a while and give me good service.Scott C. Frankland
Scott's WOODWORKING Website"He who has the most tools may not win the race of life but he will sure make his wife look like a good catch when she goes to move on."
been using a 12 sliding compound bevel both ways dewalt(dw708) for several months, installing kitchen cabinets including six inch prefinished crown molding
works perfectly!!, miters are perfect, particularly on the crown
i'm using a thin kerf freud industrial blade
caulking is not a piece of trim
I just bought a Bosch 12" saw and it's on its way home as we speak (so to speak). When I requested feedback on this saw from owners, because I'd read some negative comments on Amazon, here's one of the paragraphs posted:
The thread (not many answers) is here:
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-knots&msg=18237.1#a1
I'll be surprised if there is flex due to the saw itself. Am going to put a Freud Diablo blade on it and give it a whirl. I may or may not have time to try it out tomorrow. If I do, I'll post in this thread and let you know what I found vis a vis its performance. If not, it'll have to wait until late Monday afternoon.
If you have specific tests you'd like me to run, go ahead and list 'em. This could be fun!!
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I will await your feedback on your new saw.Scott C. Frankland
Scott's WOODWORKING Website"He who has the most tools may not win the race of life but he will sure make his wife look like a good catch when she goes to move on."
Oooops, almost forgot. You oughta check out this tool review also.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I own the 10incch Bosch slider saw .It's a great machine ,blades can make a difference,but it all depends what you are cutting or ripping.With my saw I can rip across at a good 10 inches and if you flip your stock over you have doubled your width very accurately.All you will need is an accurate machinist square to set your blade at square to the fence and you cant go wrong.If you go with the 12 inch saw you will get more rip distance ,also cut through thicker wood beyond a 4x4 post ,and your concern about flex depends on how agressively or hastily the cut is made. Go for it!
Thanks for the insight. I have read to much feedback from both sides of the fence and it makes the choice that much harder.Scott C. Frankland
Scott's WOODWORKING Website"He who has the most tools may not win the race of life but he will sure make his wife look like a good catch when she goes to move on."
Scott -- got the saw out of the box, but haven't cut anything with it yet. Did notice, however, that they give a 30-day satisfaction guarantee, so that would be plenty of time to decide if you like it or not!
Should have time tomorrow afternoon to do some work with it. Happy Fourth!!!
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
You ment happy first didn't you. Anyway glad to hear it made it home now just have to wait to see how it cuts. I am pretty sure that I will get the 12" Bosch but it never hurts to hear first hand that the saws are worth the money.Scott C. Frankland
Scott's WOODWORKING Website"He who has the most tools may not win the race of life but he will sure make his wife look like a good catch when she goes to move on."
Report is ready! First, apologies for forgetting Scott's location north of the border! Belated Happy First to you, Scott! Now, on to the brand new Bosch 3912 CMS (compound miter saw -- just getting terms in for future searches). Tune-up and accuracy notes are at the end of the list:
Weight: 43lbs, a chunk for me to pick up, but I like it. The first impression of this saw is "Solid." Solid table, solid fence, hefty handle, etc., etc.
Ease of set-up: everything's assembled except for the miter lock knob and the dust bag. The dust bag, by the way, has a pinch-type circular clamp that holds the bag firmly in a groove on the dust chute. (Yeah, I know, dust bags aren't much use anyway!)
Accessories: I bought the support extension set that comes with a stop for setting length of cut. Easy to install, reasonably priced.
Notable things I like:
30-Day Satisfaction Guarantee
Smooth action for both bevel and miter changes. I've handled some saws that had very stiff tables, making miter adjustments aggravating at best. Very happy with the way this saws moves.
Engraved markings for bevel and miter. The only way to go, IMO.
A more-precise flat "indicator" for the bevel setting. I very much dislike the arrow shape used on other saws. I'll post a picture later, but the flat indicator and the shape of the metal makes it easy to have a system for consistently sighting the bevel scale.
Engraved markings on right fence, very handy for making quick rough cuts without using the stop.
A 33.9* bevel detent pin -- I have no idea if most saws have this, but for doing crown molding it seems super-convenient. Easy to set in the open position so it doesn't "stop" when you don't want it to.
Miter detent trigger is easy to use, squeezed with the index finger, moderately so to release the detent, and a little harder to pull it up far enough to clip up in the open position for when you're mitering between stops. Great design.
Hold-down included, with 6 different locations it can be "plugged in." Quick release, with some down-side (see below).
Stock blade is quite decent. Made very smooth cuts in the soft-wood 1x and 2x material I cut. Minor tear-out at the back, but that's what a Freud blade and backer board are born to fix when beauty is essential.
Storage incorporated for hex wrench and blade/stop wrench (Pretty funny here -- I thought the wrench was missing. Not! It was in its little storage slot in the saw handle.)
Sliding base extension provides a few inches more support and clamping space if needed.
Excellent owner's manual relative to others I've read. Clear, well-written, good illustrations, and great "basic operations" pages in the back for those of us who've not worked with any molding, let alone crown molding!
Things they could have done differently or were a pain (literally):
It'll take some practice to get skilled using the hold-down. First time I've owned a miter saw with a hold down, so that may be part of the problem. So far it has taken me 2 or 3 tries with a given thickness of wood to get it set right (not moving the stock, but still holding it down securely), and I definitely found a pinch-point and have the little cut on my thumb to prove it!
When locking down the sliding part of the fence, it seems important not to over-tighten it. That throws the top part of the fence out of its 90-degree alignment to the table. Just by a smidge, mind you, but when cutting tall stock it could make a difference.
The safety release button is somewhat hard to operate. Just a little tricky coordination- and strength-wise. I doubt that it bothers most of you men though, LOL! On the positive side, it is an ambidextrous switch, good for left-handers.
Picky-picky: I would use wing nuts or another tooless method to fasten the support extensions to the saw. I would reorganize the owner's manual so that all the English is together, all the Spanish together, etc., etc.
OK, I got out my best 3 tool-set-up items: a small engineer's square, a 90/45/45 drafting square and one of those Japanese style 45's (inside/outside), and went to work. The fence was perfectly perpendicular to the blade, but there was work to be done on the 90* and 45* stops. Nice big bolt-heads and nuts making up these stops. The way the saw is designed, it was easy to see the stops through the body of my Japanese set-up tool, so I could even adjust the stop bolt with one hand while watching the blade/tool relationship at the same time.
The fence, as mentioned, might not always be 90* to the table -- speaking specifically of the upper sliding part of the left-hand side. There is a lever in back that locks the slide down when you get it where you want it. On my saw, if I push that lever all the way down (takes a bit of force to do this), the upper fence comes a little bit forward. The solution seems to be to just snug the lever some, but not force it into a totally closed position.
Cutting wood: I used some scrap stock to test the 45* bevels and miters, and the 90* cut too, of course. I bevel-cut a 2x4 standing "tall," flipped one piece and checked it for 90*. It looked great, and this method gives an effective almost-5" to show up any inaccuracy. Next task was to miter-cut a 6" wide piece of 3/4" furniture-grade plywood, flip and test. It was gorgeously correct! Used the same stock to cut at 90*. Same result.
I have no reason to believe this saw won't hold its settings now that it's been tuned up. I don't have a dial indicator, so haven't been able to check for blade wobble, but if there is any, it didn't affect the cuts made today. I'll be getting a Freud Diablo cross-cut blade to use for laminate flooring and cutting the boards for our deck. Gotta pay my store rent first though, LOL!
I feel like a bandit, getting this saw and the extension for $204!! Quite the happy camper so far. Still to come: I'll take a pic of that bevel indicator so the description makes more sense. Next time I go to Home Depot, I'll play with the corresponding Delta and DeWalt saws for comparison.
Now, time to go pick some raspberries. Yum, yum!
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 7/5/2004 9:35 pm ET by forestgirl
You have done an admirably complete tool review. In fact it is a better, more complete run down than I have ever read in a mag -- for any type of tool.
I only wish there was a way to check on a given tool's reliability and continued accuracy over the long term.
For instance, I've had the 10" Makita SCMS for maybe 5-6 years. for most of that time, it made dead-on accurate cuts. Then last spring, it started to drift off. I am not the machinist I would like to be, but I got out the manual and fiddled with it to no avail.
I finally removed the fence and took it off to a Makita service center -- only to discover it was bent slightly (even though I cannot remember any sort of bump that would cause this).
So, I buy a new fence and fiddled some more. I got it to cut right, but now it is what I would call "inconsistently inaccurate." That is, I was cutting a stack of drawer parts, and every 9th or 10th board, the cut would drift off slightly. Not much, but enough to make a difference in a dovetailed drawer.
My tolerance for this sort of thing is pretty low. I should take the new fence back and have it rechecked, but I rather suspect some other part has worn or loosened up slightly. Maybe its time to try a new saw, and sell this one to a framer.
I recount all this by way of pointing out the main problem with all tool reviews: one can pretty much just evaluate the tool's features and accuracy when new. What will happen down the road is anyone's guess.
I agree with you in principle, nikki, that by setting up and test-driving a new tool, one can't predict how well it will fare over the long haul (or how long of a haul it will handle). We can only hedge our bets by collecting info from current owners and buying what we perceive to be quality. Of course, that's usually "quality relative to a budget," LOL! (I can't help but feel a bit of a gloat coming on here.)
I'd like to believe that the quality seen in the initial set-up, and the thought that has gone into a tool's design, serve as some indication about other elements that will support longevity and consistency.
One of the magazines runs a regular column on tools that have been in their stable for considerable time and proven themselves. A worthwhile use of column-inches I'd say.
Sorry to hear about your Makita going off the tracks a bit. I know those sliders ain't cheap, although the 10" is certainly more affordable than the bigger ones! Sounds like maybe it's a bit worn out, and with all those extra moving parts I can see where it might be tricky to ferret out the cause of an intermittent problem.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Scott, how in the world did I miss the fact that the Bosch you're considering is the sliding CMS? Sorry 'bout that! Anywho, you can compare my ramblings to whatever you've heard about the Delta CMS.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Thanks for the review and it didn't matter it was a CMS I still was a good read.
Scott C. Frankland
Scott's WOODWORKING Website"He who has the most tools may not win the race of life but he will sure make his wife look like a good catch when she goes to move on."
Have you seen the current Popular Woodworking's review of 10" SCMS's?? I just picked up the mag last night, and it reviews the Bosch, Makita, Porter Cable, Delta, Hitachi and a couple others. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
No but I will pick one up the next time I am out.Scott C. Frankland
Scott's WOODWORKING Website"He who has the most tools may not win the race of life but he will sure make his wife look like a good catch when she goes to move on."
FG: Did you see the June issue of woodworkers journal? They also have a complete review of miter saws, and also an article to make a miter station to go along with your saw. good reading
How did they rate the saws? What were the top 3 saws?
Hi Mike. Those were last year's reviews. I'm overbooked from now through Monday, but could look them up for you after that.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I'm overbooked from now through Monday..
Ya nursin' that old kittie or just relaxin' as ya should be?
Thank you for taking the time to reply and looking up the information.
Hi Mike, sorry I didn't get to it the last couple of days -- eye infection made seeing the computer and magazines pretty difficult! I'll rummage around and find it tonight.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Thanks for the information. I broke down and bought the Makita LS1221. I decided to go with the 12 inch saw.
Have a great week!
Mike, you'll be in heaven with a 12" saw! I bought the Bosch last summer (actually, it was a present but I picked it out :>) and I just love it! Beats the pants off a 10" saw capacity-wise, and compared to the 8-1/4" Delta I used to have, it's like a Porsche compared to a skateboard.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
You've given me a great idea!
Our anniversary is coming up and I couldn't think what to get my wife.
She has everything BUT a 12" CMS.
OK, the Popular WWing review was of 10" sliding compound miter saws. They gave the Bosch 44100 and the Makita LS1013 "Editor's Choice." Other saws that were reviewed were the Delta 36-240, the Hitachi C10FSH, the Milwaukee 6497-6 and the Porter-Cable 3807 (oh, and also that funny little GMC from Lowe's). There's a great deal of detail in the article, and it's all in finer print than I can read this week, at least without getting a headach :-(
Ahhh! Turns out the review is on-line at their web site! Go here and download it (it's in PDF/Acrobat format).forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Addendum: In the Pop WWing article, they only reviewed 10" saws, no 12" saws. The Woodworker's Journal article of the same vintage looked at a hodge-podge of 10" and 12", CMS and SCMS. It's more of a "what to look for" article than a compare-and-contrast review. Count me among the un-impressed.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
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