Replies

1. 
   RodWolfy | Feb 25, 2006 11:43pm | #1

   Jeff,

   I've been self taught since starting in woodworking 8 years ago. I started out as a tool junkie. I got everything that I thought would help, including a few Stanley handplanes and chisels.

   I thought that using handplanes was something slow and inaccurate. It could be done much faster with a beltsander, I reasoned. The handplanes worked lousy. I bought a PC 3x24 belt sander at the beginning. I used it a little and found it's rather easy to not keep it flat. You catch an edge and it will take a divot out that's hard to fix. You can get the hang of it after a while, but I've only found it useful for table tops.  The finish it leaves isn't that great either, unless you go through the grits and use a ROS. I use a stationary sander much more often.

   I started out making little shelves and cabinets. I've now gone on to trying furniture.

   I started to poke around the "neanderthal" side of woodworking forums. I learned that the most important part of using a handplane is getting a quality tool. Dead flat sides, quality casting and grinding, and a very sharp blade. Either you can spend hours on end doing this to a cheap plane, or spend the extra for a good one.

   Last year, I invested in a Lie Nielsen #4 1/2 and found that handplanes are still around after hundreds of years for a reason. What a difference. It's much easier to get a flat tabletop and a great finish with one. It's less work too. With a sander, it abraids the wood fibers. You have to work down through the grits. A sharp handplane blade cuts them cleanly.

   I recently made a quilted maple coffee table. I glued up the panel and then scraped off the glue. I then took some passes with the handplane (and with a very sharp blade you don't need to sand) to clean up the top. The few areas of tearout that were left were cleaned up with a $5 card scraper.

   If I was going to do it all over, I'd buy a couple videos on the setup and use of a handplane (David Charlesworth has a couple great ones, available through LN), a stone pond and a nice #4 or #4 1/2 from Lee Valley, Lie Nielsen or Clifton. For quality work, you will get much more out of them than a belt sander. Of course, if your just knocking out stuff, like at a production shop, then get the belt sander. It's cheaper.

   Rod

    

1. 
   Jumpman | Feb 26, 2006 01:30am | #2

   THAT'S what I wanted to hear.  I have purchased a couple of inexpensive handplanes and am in the process of 'tuning' them.  I'll probably buy some Hock replacement blades to get them working well.  We'll see how sharp the stock blades can get, & how well they hold and edge.

   I've also purchased The Handplane Book by Garrett Hack and am using it for my source of information.  I started out in life as a journeyman machinist, way back when this was a good trade for making a living, several decades ago.  Spent the first decade doing this type of work, so tuning a hand plane should be well within my skills.  Sharpening steel is one of my favorite pastimes, the search for the holy grail of the 'perfect edge' or is it 'scary sharp'.  All my buddies can't believe how sharp I can get a good pocketknife, not to toot my own horn...Bottom line, I do not want to buy a belt sander if I can get away with it, I'd much rather learn to use planes and scrapers effectively.  I've got a good quarter pad finish sander, hopefully it won't see much use.

   Thanks for relating your experiences..

2. 
   Midnight | Feb 26, 2006 01:38am | #3

   Jeff.. the short answer would be that the perfect tool for the job depends entirely on the material that the job is built from... Planes don't do too well working on sheet goods... sanders can make a hellova mess of solid wood... and belt sanders more mess than the others...

   I have both planes and sanders; my belt sander is used rarely and only as a crude shaping tool... my orbital sander is used predominantly to smooth ply based projects... I do the bulk of my work with hand planes for a bunch of reasons that'd take too long to explain here..

   If you're thinking about sanders, look at them as just part of a finishing system, the other part being a good shop vac... the things generate fine dust like there's no tomorrow and left to their own devises that dust will reach every surface in your shop. If a sander you're looking at can't hook directly to a shop vac, pass it by... you'll loose a chunk of your shop time to decontaminating the shop on a regular basis if you don't.

    

   Mike Wallace

   Stay safe....Have fun

1. 
   Jumpman | Feb 26, 2006 05:31am | #4

   I appreciate what you're saying.  I suppose the question I should have asked is can I get by without a belt sander?  Most of my planned projects are going to be built from hardwood.  Sheet material will only be used as substrate for veneer projects and carcase's for cabinets.  Hopefully I can get by with an orbital sander for the occasional use of sheet materials.  In fact, where I am most concerned about not having a belt sander would be for contouring the edges of panels that will have to butt up against and match irregular wall surfaces e.g. counter tops etc..  I don't have many projects like this planned so I'm hopeful I can get by with hand planes for that task.  I'll see...

   Thanks everyone for your comments.

1. 
   highfigh | Feb 26, 2006 08:03am | #5

   If the only task you expect to use a belt sander for is back-bevelling for matching wall and cabinet contours, get a cheap one. A great one won't really do a better job for this. I bought a Craftsman 3x21 a long time ago and it has done a good job of removing decades of paint from the interior doors of my rental unit and cleaning up their edges, in addition to what you are thinking of. You could back-bevel the edges with a handplane and follow the scribed line with a rasp, too. For this kind of work, you don't need a belt sander, but they can save some time.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

1. 
   lwj2 | Feb 26, 2006 05:50pm | #7

   I bought a Craftsman 3x21 a long time ago and it has done a good job of removing decades of paint from the interior doors of my rental unit and cleaning up their edges, in addition to what you are thinking of.
   *******************Funny -- I've got several exterior windows and a couple of doors to re-finish and I've been considering a belt sander, as the 330 block sander I've got is pretty slow at paint removal.Thanks.Leon

1. 
   highfigh | Feb 26, 2006 06:11pm | #8

   One thing to consider is the lead content of the old paint, too. Don't use a belt that's too aggressive and it won't dig in, but if it does, Bondo is about the best filler, IMO.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

2. 
   lwj2 | Feb 27, 2006 03:15am | #9

   Thanks for the reminder.I'm looking at one with a dust bag, but I'll pick up a respirator also.A good bit of this will be done with a scraper, but the doors and frames have a mixture of crap paint on them that is unbelievable.If the doors weren't solid instead of core, I'd junk them and replace. As it is, they're worth salvaging. The window frames are out of manufacture, so I'm going to be stuck there, as replacement is out of the budget completely.Now that I've located a decent putty instead of the crap DAP sells, I'm much happier about this.Leon

3. 
   highfigh | Feb 27, 2006 03:44am | #10

   If you mean that the wdo trim is too old, check around- it may be available through some specialty millwork dealers. Can you post a profile? There's a place here in Milwaukee that specializes in old profiles. Or, maybe you could go to a place that makes custom profiles for their shapers. They grind HSS for the cutters and you get to keep them.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

4. 
   lwj2 | Feb 27, 2006 05:00am | #11

   Nope, trim's ok. It's the units themselves -- made by a firm in Topeka, they're still in business, but not making that type any more (c. 1957).Worst case scenario, I take one down to Rocky Mount to MW and have them fabricate to match. I really want to avoid that, being careful should do it.If I need stuff milled, I can take a sample to one of several millwork shops here and get it done, they might even have the knives in the back room. Lots of stuff around here (Roanoke, VA) was done by local firms who have a habit of holding onto old profiles. They also will say "I don't have that, Ralph's shop did that one, here's his number."Thanks, though.Leon

2. 
   papanick | Feb 26, 2006 09:16am | #6

   I have a great 3x21 Bosch belt sander.

   Haven't used it in ages now. Usually use it on its side as a stationary sander, come to think of it.

   My work hasn't suffered, far from it. I'm faster and better by using the right tool for the job at hand.

   Would you actually beltsand a top made from tiger maple? Thought not.The older I get, the better I was....

3. 
   martindelittle | Feb 27, 2006 11:39am | #12

   By and large you can get by without a belt sander but, and in addition to your planes, you really do need a scraper. Often  overlooked and or ignored they are a wonderful tool.

   When speaking of scapers think about the Stanley No 80. In England they are the equivalent of about  $44.00

   No matter how sharp your plane, complex grain can often be a nightmare. The scraper happily works in all directions, and when you have set it up correctly will  give a first class finish.

   When doing general cabinet work, doors etc, that are to be finished in (what you guys call Watco Danish) I for one  go from a power planer (4 bladed v sharp) to  my old No 80 to a very light dusting with 130 grit . Et Voila. Job done.

3. 
   RMillard | Feb 27, 2006 02:14pm | #13

   Jeff90,

    

   I wouldn't buy a belt sander, in fact I wouldn't take one if it were free. I'm ashamed to admit that I used a belt sander on furniture. My first woodworking book was How to Build Shaker Furniture by Thomas Moser. It had a big impact on me, mostly positive, but the positives were far outweighed his advocating the belt sander. The sander is so noisy and dusty, that I hated using them. I would have put up the those traits, if it weren't for the crudeness of the resulting surface. When I made the transition to fine period furniture, I knew the belt sander wouldn't be going along.

   Planes are the way to go. They require a learning curve, but in the end they will be your most valuable tool. Nothing beats a planed surface, for trueness, clarity and smoothness.

   Scraping planes have their place, but I rarely use them. I have owned 4 scrapers, a LN, Kunz, Stanley No. 80 and the Lee Valley scraping plane. Of these only the Stanley and the Lee Valley were worth owning. I haven't used my Stanley in years, but I did use the Lee Valley scraper last year in a limited role on a curly maple chest on frame.

   Rob Millard