Replies

1. 
   Midnight | Feb 01, 2004 04:33am | #1

   John..

   I won't go into the ins and outs of your question, save to say that a properly tuned scraper will  leave a finish that puts sand paper to shame. That's down to the different natures of the beasts; sand paper by its nature tears at the wood, leaving ragged edges. These edges get progressivly finer as you work through the grits. A plane or scraper cuts the wood rather than tears, leaving a much smoother, "cleaner" finish.

   This link should help you learn how to tune your scrapers...

   http://www.brendlers.net/oldtools/scraping/scraper.htm

   Mike Wallace

   Stay safe....Have fun

2. 
   djcolorado | Feb 01, 2004 06:21am | #2

   I started building furniture about twenty years ago have done around 18 pieces.  The gun cabinet I am working on now it the first I have used a scraper on, and I can't believe I spent so many years fixing things by sanding that are so much easier done with a scraper.  Most of my prior projects had been in red oak, with a few in walnut.  I think the reason I survived for so long is that those woods tend to have rather uncomplicated grain patterns because you can get a lot of stock that is quarter sawn, and they sand reasonably predictably.  This current piece is my first out of hard maple, and maple is another animal.  Using coarse grit paper like in a belt sander, You can  be sanding beautifully with the grain and a foot later on the same board scratch across the grain and create a mess. 

   I bought the Veritas card scraper holder, and also bought their burnishing tool to put the burr on the scaper.  Both work really well.  It takes a little experimentation regarding the angle of the burr,  the angle of the card to the work, and the amount of bow in the card for the specific problem you are working on.  The good news is that the cutting action of the scraper is such that it is hard to screw up what you are working on if you don't have it dialed in.

3. 
   RMillard | Feb 01, 2004 06:42am | #3

   John,

   The best surface, is the one left by a sharp hand plane. It is not only the smoothest, but also the most "accurate" in that it is quite flat. This flatness is especially important with high gloss finishes on surfaces that will catch raking light, where every undulation will stick out like a sore thumb. Having said that the plane is the best tool, in a few instances it won't work, such aswith highly figured wood. In my work I use a lot of veneer, which in most cases can't be planed, so I'm forced to scrape. With proper use the scraper leaves a excellent surface, but in my opinion, a surface, that will require some sanding. The harder wood the less sanding will be needed. Scrapers don't work well on soft woods, or wooly wood. I often run into mahogany veneer that has a wooly texture, which is to say it has a fibrous like look when scraped. In this case I use a very light touch with a fresh scraper. The main problem with ####scraper ( both card and cabinet) , is the tendency to concentrate on one area, resulting in a less than true surface. This is less of a concern with a scraper plane ( like the Stanley 112). Sanding ranks far down on my list of methods to achieve a surface for finishing, not only because it is boring and messy, but it leaves the least desirable surface. A heavily sanded surface to my eye at least , results in a dull surface that lacks the brilliance of a planed surface. Of course some sanding is necessary, I sand all planed surfaces with 320 grit paper just before finishing, and scraped surfaces with 220 and then 320. Since I use dyes, I do not worry about over sanding, but if you use stains, you may want to only go to 220 grit.

   Rob Millard

4. 
   jazzdogg | Feb 01, 2004 07:06am | #4

   John,

   Scrapers can be frustrating when you're first learning how to sharpen them. As with all other cutting tools, sharpness amounts to honing two adjacent surface so that their intersection converges to nothing. Before you attempt to roll a burr, it's very important to hone/polish the cutting surfaces to a highly polished 90-degree angle. There's no need to polish the entire surface - just the edges.

   I start with a file to remove ragged edges and square things up, and proceed through fine and extra-fine diamond stones to an 8000-grit ceramic stone. Others will employ different methods, but the objective is to have a uniform scratch pattern on the two surfaces that converge to form the cutting edge before you roll a burr.

   It helped me immensely to purchase a 10 power objective lense with which I could take a close look at the properly sharpened scrapers being used by experienced woodworkers and comparing the edge they obtained to my own; if possible, see if one of your friends will let you use and examine their properly sharpened scraper so you'll know what you're trying to replicate.

   Before you attempt to roll a burr, a properly sharpened/honed scraper will produce fine shavings (not dust); if all you're getting is dust, trying to create a burr is premature.

   Once you've figured it out, you'll wonder how you ever got along without a scraper. Mastery of the tool is not difficult and is exceedingly worthwhile.

   Good luck,
   Paul

   Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
1. 
   johnkollar | Feb 01, 2004 08:54am | #5

   Thank you all for the replies.  I am still in the experimentaion phase of these new tools.  Already I am getting nice surfaces, but still a little uneven.  Right now I am working on Curly Maple and am finding the cabinet scraper to jump and leave skip marks on the wood.  I am working on the underside of the top first, so that I can work out all of my issues first.  Any suggestions for a good plane for doing general woodwork, maybe a little more towards table tops.  I think I need to get a good FLAT surface before I go anywhere else.  I have no clue, it is all new to me!

   Correct me if I am wrong, if a plane is used on a PERFECTLY flat surface it will not pick up any shavings?  I am trying to understand the basics of hand tools now that I have used most all of the power tools.  I am trying to broaden my wood working experience.  Thanks for everything.

   -John

1. 
   RMillard | Feb 01, 2004 03:38pm | #6

   It really requires two planes to make a flat surface, a jointer or fore plane, and a smooth plane. With planes, it pays to buy the high quality examples. I have no experience with anything other than Lie-Nielsen planes, but the Clifton and Lee Valley planes look good. If I were starting out, I'd buy a Lee Valley fore plane, and L-N No. 4 ½ smooth plane with a high angle frog. The high angle frog is the only reason I opt for the L-N over the Lee Valley smooth plane. The high angle frog has a tremendous impact on the quality of cut on difficult woods ( like your curly maple).

   Because the blade projects just slightly from the sole, and it is slightly ( very-very slightly) curved so that the edges won't dig in, a shaving can be taken from a flat surface. Learning to use a plane is well worth the effort. I could not make even the simplest item without a plane.

   Rob Millard

2. 
   Scrit | Feb 01, 2004 03:40pm | #7

   If your scraper plane (?) is skipping try to reduce the amount of cutter projection and increase the amount of downwards pressure you are applying. If the blade is still chattering you may need a thicker one.

   A plane used on a perfectly flat surface will pick up a planing simply because its cutter projects BENEATH the sole of the plane (there is one exception to this, a traditional wooden spokeshave, but that's a whole different ball game). Trying to think this one through will possibly drive you nuts! I'd just as soon regard it as being like a mathematical formula which tends towards infinity - or in the case of a plane, true flatness. The one thing you can be certain of is the longer the plane, the straighter the face or edge produced. If you think about it, we think of things as being flat when in reality we live on a sphere, don't we?.....

   Scrit

3. 
   BG | Feb 01, 2004 06:17pm | #8

   John,

   You brought up an issue which probably drives us all crazy a lot more than we're willing to admit.  A flat board should produce a nice even shaving the full length of the board.....thinner, depending on the set of the blade.  So when it stops giving shavings what's going on?  Are there chips stuck on the mouth?  Has the blade backed off?  Is the sole of the plane not flat enough?  Am I pushing down hard enough on the front tote to begin with...or not pushing at the right angle on the back side? ..those are the only questions I know to ask, there may be others

   I use used Stanleys.  I'm very tempted to buy a LN, Clifton, Veritas, or good wooden plane just to see...is it me or the tool.  After all, I bought this used, why did the previous owner get rid of it anyhow?  Usually when I get to this point in my frustration...the planes start behaving poperly again...

   May others can clarify for us... 

4. 
   aew | Feb 01, 2004 08:49pm | #9

   Curly maple or any highly figured wood is not easily surfaced with a cabinet scraper.  You should use a high angle smoother first and then, if necessary go the scraper. 

   I suspect you are either trying to take too much off with the scraper either due to a very aggressive burr on the blade or by the depth setting of the blade. 

   A plane, as someone else pointed out, leaves the smoothest surface if done properly.  A scraper is next best and is one of the more satisfying methods to me.  There is something very soothing about the use of a properly tuned scraper, either a card or a scraper plane.  But it takes some time to learn to sharpen the scraper blades and use them.  I still learn something new each time I do it.

   AEW

1. 
   Biscardi | Feb 02, 2004 04:20am | #10

   I recently turned my first bowl on a lathe. It was err.. a little rough. Anyhow, I got a couple card scrapers out and it really worked pretty well on the outside of the bowl. The outside is much smoother than the inside where I used just sandpaper.

   I am not going to post a picture of the bowl! Yall are pretty patient but I wouldn't push it that far. Maybe the next one.