I’ve tried a number of different brands and stores for screws. In almost all cases I’ve stripped the heads or the heads have broken off. The only screws that consistently behave properly are those that come as part of an installation kit such as blinds, sliding door rail sets, etc.
I drill pilot holes and use an electric drill. The kit screws never strip and in some cases I’ve had to back them out and start over. No problems with these guys.
What do you guys use?
Thanks,
Burt
Replies
Burt,
I feel your pain. Go to McFeeley's web site and order some square drive screws. They are available in all sizes, style, lengths and materials. They are more expensive and they never strip out.
On the other hand, make sure you're drilling your pilot hole at the right size and, depending on the material, lubricate the hole with something. My experience with using a drill / driver is that the minute the screw grabs, if you don't have the bit well seated, it's going to begin stripping out the head, especially in brass screws.
Seriously, try the square drives. They are amazing. http://www.mcfeeleys.com I think is the web site.
Kell
Or you could drive them by hand. A little wax on the threads... I'm pretty sure you won't break off the heads, anyway!
If you have to use the drill, back off on the clutch and put your shoulder against it, that way the clutch slips before you strip the head. Also use a new bit, and be sure it's the right size. You may still need a turn or two with a manual driver.
It's more likely to be technique that's at fault than the screws. If you can't drive them in comfortably by hand, something's wrong. I sometimes break long brass screws, but only when I'm pushing the system too hard!
Sunlight soap (bar or cake) rather than wax, is my choice of lubricant. I think that it is a better lubricant, but as it's a pure soap any left on the surface dissappears with a little water and does not get in the way of a finish.
But.. process is important. The screws go in the mouth before application of soap.
With Phillips screws, if the driver is offline, the bit will slip and round out the head. This also dulls the bit. Make sure you use good bits and if you use a bit holder, you won't be sticking the driver chuck in a small area and blocking your view. Most of the time, I have seen people do this and the first thing they want to do is move the driver to the side so they can see. If you don't want to deal with this kind of thing at all(just about), go with the square drive. Slotted are a PITA, and Phillips aren't very far behind. I generally use Phillips bits that have grooves across the blades which grab the screw head and slip less. True Value, some ACE and a lot of other hardware stores sell them. Don't bother with the ones that you can get a lot for under $2.00. They aren't worth it. Vermont American is one company that sells them.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
The fun part of this is that Phillips designed his screw to slip. Apparently Henry Ford was having problems with assembly line workers overtightening screws, his mate Phillips came up with the solution of a screw / driver design designed to slip before it broke. They were never intended for repair, so the occaisional burring of the slots was a 'minor issue'.
We have now spent the next 'x' years trying to 'solve' a design feature.
Dave
PS. I have seen an authoritative reference to this, but I can't find it right now. Still never spoil a good story with facts.
The reference for this is the book "One Good Turn: A Natural History of the Screwdriver and the Screw" by Witold Rybczynski Worth reading
Thanks, that looks good enough for a history PhD title!!
I've got a large block of beeswax I use to lube screws with. Just drag them across it and have at it.Residue isn't a problem as long as you're using an oil-based finish. Water based might give problems, don't know, I don't use them. Were I to use water-based finishes, I'd try wiping down with turps or mineral spirits a day or so before finishing.Our local organic foods store has beeswax blocks for about $2.00 per, each is a half-pound.Leon Jester, Roanoke VA
McFeeley's. Good folks to deal with.
You don't say what type of screws you are having problems with -- but if they are brass or slotted screws, it ain't going to be easy. Then you need to use a lubricant (anything from paraffin to soap, to wax) and a properly sized pilot hole (size of the screw shank, minus the threads).
Regular steel screws with Phillips head will have the same problem, so use the lube/pilot hole technique. Hardened steel screws (common drywall screws) generally require nether lube or pilot holes -- unless you risk splitting the wood.
But you also need the right technique for power driving your Phillips head screws. You have to keep your driver absolutely in line with the screw, and exert considerable, continuous pressure (to keep the bit engaged in the screw). This is not so critical with square drive screws, which is one reason they are favored by many.
The McFeeley's catalog is a great recommendation -- since they carry a wide variety of screws for different applications. Some, for example, have drill points at the end of the screw, and thus drill their own pilot hole.
You can also make your screw driving tasks immensely easier with a cordless impact driver. These are expensive, but once you drill a screw with one of these gismos, you will never want to use a conventional drill again (for driving fasteners).
It would appear that I am failing in two areas. I'm not making a large enough pilot hole and I don't lube. What about counter-slnking? I find that when I can get the screw to go all the way down it invariably will not go flush to the surface. Is there a bit that will pilot and sink?
but once you drill a screw with one of these gismos, you will never want to use a conventional drill again (for driving fasteners
Right On!
I have been building a playscape kind of thing for my kids the past few days. Lots of 2X and 4X PT, and I finally lost it with my 18 volt Dewalt. Batteries not worth a damm, bit slips, can't drive a 3" screw, even with a pilot hole.
Went out and got a 12 volt makita impact driver. WOW! Noisy, but still, WOW! Words fail me.
It did cost twice as much as a two pack of the Dewalt 18 volt batteries that give me so much grief, but was it ever worth it. Again, WOW!
edit: also used it to drive 2" #10 screws into ash, tapered pilot holes were drilled. Just for grins, I did not wax one screw. The impact driver snapped that #10 off just above the threads.
Edited 12/2/2004 7:42 pm ET by TXJon
I have used a 12v Makita -- and it is sweet!!
1) Make sure your pilot hole is big enough especially if screwing into something hard (i.e. Ipe)
2) Your driver in the drill and the screw have to be in a perfectly straight line. You know you are not in line if the operation makes a "horrible" sound as the bit is camming out throughout the process. This error is very common when people start using cordless drills to drive screws.
3) If you are using brass screws, drive an identical steel screw into each hole first.
4) As previously mentioned, McFeely's Square Drive screws.
Lubricating the screw is a time honored technique, but if you pay attention to the other things, especially the alignment of your bit, you will probably not have to resort to it. I have done it, but it can be quite time consuming (think about waxing each screw for a deck.)
Edited 11/24/2004 10:47 am ET by Kyle
I have recently switched to the TORX drive screws with very good results, available from my local ACE hardware (among other places) they are far better than anything else I have used. A hassel to have another driver type bit bit floating around, but well worth it. BTW, a driver bit is included in the box.They are available in INT/and EXT..trim head and bugle. Try em, you will like em.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Waxing each screw for a deck takes no time at all. You can just dip them in a can of WD-40 or dissolve some parraffin in paint thinner or kerosene and dip them into that. Let them drain and screw on! Heated beeswax works well too. In the northwest, tract housing framers have been known to treat their nails in such a manner ... it makes the nails slide in real silky like ... they slide out just as easy too, so the framing inspectors will be real unhappy if they catch someone doing it this way.
Get a set of Fuller tapered drill bits. The set comes with adjustable countersink depth and a plug cutter. When you use these with McFeely's square drive screws you'll never go back to anything else.
The only problem is the transition to square drive while you use up your Phillips screws.
Jerry
Been thinking about lubrication. What you want are screws that stay put, that grip 100%, and that hold tight right down their length. If you fill pre-drilled holes with a lubricant, or coat your screws, does that diminish the grip? Maybe just enough to compromise the join? If the wooden item is subject to vibration, will the screws be inclined to back themselves out?
I don't lubricate (although I do recall resorting to some wax once, when driving 2.5 inch brass scews into some very old and brittle white oak).
Still reckon the answer is a right-sized hole, with a countersink!
M
Edited 11/24/2004 5:00 pm ET by kiwimac2
I've been using twin threaded posi drive screws for years now, piloting religously. Only strip probs I've had are when I forget to set the torque limiter on the cordless...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Possibly a silly question, but were your problems happening when you used drywall screws? They're notorius for snapping off. I've been using deck screws for about a year now and haven't snapped one off yet.
I have seen two kinds of drywall screws. One has a dark oxide finish and is dull, while the the other is darker and has a sheen. The oxide finished ones haven't been a problem, while the shiny black ones are a PITA. If they're 3/4" to 1-1/4", they aren't too bad. Once they are longer than this, they seem to be weaker right at the head and they snap off.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
The key is the diameter of the unthreaded shank just below the screwhead. The shank on drywall screws is smaller than on deck screws. I've also heard that drywall screws are more brittle than other screws.
Whatever the reason, I've pretty much quit using drywall screws (for anything other than actual drywall) in favor of deck screws. I get mine at Home Depot and they come in different colors and lengths. They have a phillips-type head but need a special bit to fit the slot just right. A stubby bit comes in every box - or you can by a longer bit. A #2 phillips bit will work but it doesn't fit perfectly so you have to be a little careful.
Square drive and torx screws probably work as well or better, but I like to use phillips-type screws so a customer can disassemble something if necessary without needing a special screwdriver.
As I said, only some screws are more brittle and if they get mixed in with the good ones, it's a royal PITA. I stopped using the shiny, brittle ones a long time ago and really haven't had any trouble since. It was more of a problem when someone else was buying them and didn't listen when the difference was described (too cheap to buy the good ones). They're great for plywood and particle board, but only if they have the course thread. There is a type of screw made for cabinet work, too. Course thread and seriously beefy shank. I use a lot of those, too, and they're also available at HD. Looks like a bugle head or drywall screw but I have never come close to breaking one off. If the Phillips head doesn't quite fit in the deck screws, is there a line coming out from the center on the flats between the grooves? If so, I believe that takes a slightly different bit, which may come in the box and is available separately. Some screws will take square and phillips, so you can put them in and if the customer needs to remove them, they can.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
The screw heads that look like Philips but has star lines in between are "Posidrive". In my country and problably all of Europe this is the standard screw head. It's basically a much improved Philips head, with less tendency for the bit to jump out. The most common size is PZ#2.
That's the one I was referring to. I just didn't remember the name. Too bad they won't adopt that here as the standard. I can't imagine how much time and money are wasted because of the other kinds of fasteners.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
"The screw heads that look like Philips but has star lines in between are "Posidrive". In my country and problably all of Europe this is the standard screw head. It's basically a much improved Philips head, with less tendency for the bit to jump out. The most common size is PZ#2"
And, this is important, there's a dedicated driver for pozidrive screws. Use the right driver for the screw, and these are streets ahead of the old phillips design!
Lee Valley sells posidrive screws called Spax, made in Germany. I use them when I'm building something to last. They have teeth on the thread, and have a Teflon-like coating. They used to say in their blurb that Spax screws could be driven with posidrive or square/Robertston drivers, and I've always used the Robertson driver with no problem. They no longer state this, so I don't know if the head design has changed, or just the blurb.(edited for spelling)
Edited 12/1/2004 12:55 pm ET by Frozen
I use "Super Sinkers" with a pilot hole and no lube. I get them from Austin Hardwood. They're like drywall screws but they don't often break if the pilot hole is the right size. They have a combo head so they can be driven with square drive but pulled or cinched up with a Phillips.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
Spax are exellent screws. My preferred choice.
A contractor friend noticed that I use the same screw bit for everything. He thinks that my problem is not using the correct sized bit rather then the screw quality. whenever I passed the screw driver aisle at the home centers and saw the vast collections of bit sets I assumed this was a marketing gimmick. Should I run out and purchase one of these sets?
Hi,
with those bit sets you get what you pay for. Cheap = poor quality, nice to have if you run into the occasional odd screw. Buy a quality set or just a few high quality bits of the most common types.
Gert.
FreeGee,
Can you recommend some high quality bit sets? The sets I've seen are Ryobi, DeWalt, B&D, Hitachi and a few others that escape my mind. The screw bit that I use came with my Ryobi drill which is about 3 years old. I can see no visible deformation to the bit.
Hi,
for the bits that I use most (Pozidrive #2) I usually buy Bosch bits. I throw away about 2 a year.
Gert
I use a square drive screw for most any situation i come accross. I purchase from a local fastener supplier but McFeeley i've used with good results. I alwas predrill, much less headache. Give them a try. rj
Regardless of the type of screws you're using, lubrication will make driving them easier and will just about end screw breakage if everything else is done right. I use a mixture of mineral oil & beeswax - about 1:5. Warm the wax to melt it & mix in the oil, or visa versa. As it cools, it will form a deep hollow in the center of the container which makes applying the wax to screw threads really easy. The oil makes the wax less likely to crumble. I avoid soap, since it absorbs water from the air & may cause the screws to corrode or stain the wood.
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