All,
I need some help fixing my front door. Making a long story short, the two long screws(3″) are not grabbing adequately anymore. The first thing I’m trying to decide is if I should replace the screws with something that is larger but will still fit the hinge or plug the holes with some dowel, drill and screw the old screws back into the hinge.
According to Ernest Joyce, my 3″ screws are countersunk/flat head slotted with a 13/32″ head size which makes it a #10. My sense is that the ratio of the head size to the shaft taper is constant…therefore, getting a replacement screw that is larger with a head that still fits the hinge my not be possible. …is this true?
Joyce provides a chart indicating a Clearance Hole for the #10 @ 13/64″ and the Drill Hole @ 1/8″. I’m assuming that means I drill the dowel with a 1/8″ drill bit. Also, it would appear 1/4″ dowel would be a bit too small, I’m thinking 3/8″ but wondering if I should bump it up to 1/2″. Your thoughts would be appreciated. thanks
Replies
I think I would keep it simple. Trade in the slotted head screws for Philips head for ease of driving. You could put the long screws in different hinge holes or you could just use some toothpick size fillers glued in with the screw. Getting a dowel in the right place, gluing it solidly and then drilling it out without it splitting or turning will be a challenge. You can also add another long screw to each hinge so there are two.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
With all due respect to Hammer, I don't see a problem drilling out the old screw hole, gluing in a dowel, and replacing the screw.
The old hole will act as a guide when you drill it out so that shouldn't be a problem. Just let the drill follow it until you get the depth you want. I would use 2-3 fluted dowels - either 1/4" or 5/16" and trim the last one flush with the hinge mortise. Let the glue dry for an hour then use a Vix bit to center the new screw hole in the hinge plate.
You could also glue some match sticks or toothpicks in the old hole and move the 3" screw to another hinge hole. The match sticks (toothpicks?) will give the old, shorter, screw plenty of "bite".
I have fixed this problem many times by removing the screws, blow out any dust etc, drive in toothpicks coated with carpenters glue. After glue dries, reinstall screws, it works and it's easy.
Bob
BG, you didn't say if this is a real wooden door, or if it is one of the new composition, but I just hung some of the cheapo doors that the screws were into some fiberous material softer than MDF, and while I had the hinges off to paint, I filled the screw-holes with thin CA glue. I did two applications, which left the holes full after they were dry.
I had to re-drill a pilot hole to get the screws back in, and I know that the fortified plug was at least 1/2" diameter, and the screws were getting a good bite in something very solid.
The thing that I never liked about the dowel insert is that you are screwing into the end-grain, so the screw thread is just cutting the fibers that it is trying to get a grip on into little crumbs that can be easily stripped out. You might consider running the screw in and out once and squirting some CA in like I described above.
Another option would be to enlarge the hinge hole, and countersink for a larger screw.
All,
Wow...just a slew of great ideas. First thing is buying some screws with phillips head...that'll save a few knuckles. It is a wood door,quite heavy, I think I'll start conservatively and see how that goes. I'll glue some toothpicks in the old holes, put the shorter screws in the old holes and drill the shorter screw holes with an 1/8" bit to receive the new phillops head long screws. thanks all
You didn't state it in your original post, but I'm assuming that you are using the 3" screws in the door and not the frame. If that's correct, I think I'd re-mortise the door and frame for 4 1/2" architectural hinges. The hole pattern for the screws would be completely different from the existing screw holes.
Also, I think you should try to avoid using any screws longer than the manufacturer recommends for the door leaf of the hinge. Long screws into the stile just increases the liklihood of splitting the stile.
Long screws into the jamb leaf would be okay, since you are likely to find the wall stud for extra support.
"Kinky for Gov. of Texas"
Edited 6/1/2006 11:42 am by doorboy
Edited 6/1/2006 11:59 am by doorboy
doorboy,
You are correct, I was not clear, I was speaking about screws into the frame around the door...the door itself seems solid and square and needs no tightening. thanks
If the holes are bigger try bamboo stickers that you use for shishkabob they come in different thicknesses and work well.
Good luck
Troy
Troy,
Interesting idea. As it turned out when I removed the rest of the screws from the hinge, they were only 3/4"long...very undersized in my opinion. I was able to put the 3" screws in three of the holes and will redrill the other holes to accomodate larger screws...maybe #10x1 1/2".
Bee, just an aside here: many people seem to think that long is always more when it comes to screws for doors etc. In fact, even for the heaviest of doors, providing the hinges are properly sunk into close fitting mortices and the screw holes drilled the correct size, there is hardly need for anything longer than 11/2 to 2 inch at most.Philip Marcou
Heck, I'm one of those people. I don't recall seeing a good writeup in any of my books on optimum fastener lengths -- the closest I remember seeing is the data in the Kreg jig manual stating screw lengths for different stock sizes.
If you have any guidance, I'd sure take note, and I bet there are a few lurkers who would get something out of it too.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Philip,
I'm with John D...that is good to know, thanks.
However, in this application where the purpose of the long screw is to attach the hinge to a structural member(2x4) (ie. beyond the door frame)it's a bit of an exception to the 1 1/2-2" rule?
Yes, I would think so-I had not thought of it like that.Philip Marcou
BG,
It is not necessary to have such a long screw for the leaf hinge. I would fill the hole in the jamb with wood splinters and use the same size screw as in the rest of the hinges.
When fastening the jamb, use that 3" screw under the hinge leaf and place it toward th center of the jamb in order to catch as much framing as possible. Then put the leaf back and install the hinge screws.
Having the long screw in the jamb will help prevent the jamb from sagging and it will allow you to adjust the head of the door by tightening or loosening the screw. This will aid in adjusting the margin(gap) between the door and the jamb. Secondly, by placing the screw near the center of the jamb you will certainly hit framing, even if you need to angle the screw, which can be difficult if you are using the holes in the hinge plates.
Lastly, if you can, check to see if there are shims behind the hinge in order to give support to the jamb when you tighten down the long screw.
J.P.
Jp,
That is an interesting approach but I'm not sure I'd trust it in this house. This house was built in 86 (Boston area). I built a house in Indiana in 86...all old growth Doug Fir with Alaskan white cedar clapboards. This house appears to be built using 'farm raised pine' (if there is such a thing)..soft as crap. I pulled out one of those 3 inch screws with my fingers. I ended up putting three, 3" screws into the top hinge....the screws I replaced were 3/4" long.
I don't know the quality of the wood in the door jam...perhaps its fine. This is a heavy door...why take the risk that the 3/4" thick door jam is adequate to support the door from saging?
BG,The problem is usually that the hinge placement is at the edge of the jamb. And the jamb covers the edge of the sheetrock/plaster. Most hinge screws closest to the edge of the jamb if driven all the way through will only go into the sheetrock/plaster. The screws that are closest to the strike generally catch the very edge of the framing. This is why most long screws don't work when driven through the hinge screw holes.Also most long screws are driven without a pilot hole and when they hit the edge of the stud, they split it and therefore have no purchase in solid wood and will most likely be able to be pulled out easily.I have installed 4' x 8' 2 1/4" thick solid doors with 5" ball bearing hinges and the hinge screws were only 1" long. The jamb was white oak and I used 3" screws behind the hinges to secure the jamb to the framing. The still swing fine.J.P.http://www.jpkfinefurniture.com
JP,
Excellent advise, now I see what you mean. Maybe I'll drive a few more 3" screws through the jam for a little insurance. thanks
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