A few weeks ago I posted a question about flattening a workbench by hand. I asked whether I should use a scrub plane or a jack plane, and was basically told to use both. So I bought an ECE scrub plane and a Lie-Nielsen low-angle jack.
It will come as no surprise that the L-N is a beautiful and wonderful tool. I spent some time sharpening and honing the blade, and once that was done I immediately got terrific results.
But the real eye-opener is the scrub plane. It is all anyone said it would be. For someone who had never used a scrub plane, it is just absolutely amazing how much wood that thing can hog off with a minimum of effort. The next time I sharpen it I’m going to experiment with putting somewhat less of a radius on the blade, but that’s just for fun. This thing really works in a way I couldn’t have imagined.
You take some strokes with the scrub plane, hogging off wood, then spend a few minutes going over it with the jack plane to smooth it. When the jack plan starts to take consistent shavings you know the surface is smooth.
The scrub plane, it seems to me, is a perfectly realistic alternative to a wide jointer. And a whole heck of a lot quieter, safer, and more portable.
Replies
Right on Mark!!!!!!!!!!!
Hi Mark,
Agree with you there.
That's why I don't have a jointer at home either, scrub plane works exactly as described.
Cheers, eddie
Did you get the ECE with the simple wedge-and-iron setup?
Yes, I did. It's a bit of the pain to get used to the wedge concept, but once it's set at the right depth it works perfectly. Do you have any recommendations about grinding and honing the radiused edge?
Do you own the L-N low angle jack? The thickness of that blade is absolutely amazing.
I don't have a Jack plane, but I do have a veritas #4 1/2 smoothing plane. It has a pretty wide blade (2 3/8") , but the body is only 10" long. Would this be a suitable substitute for the meanwhile, or should I seriously look into making the investment in a jack plane?
Now wait a second. You have an excuse to buy another tool, and you're asking more questions? Just kidding.
Although I am far from an expert, I can tell you my experience. I was using my #4 Lie-Nielsen without great success, being unable to take off much of a shaving. I called the company and they patiently explained that those results were just what I should expect. The #4 is a smoothing plane, and is made to take off very fine shavings, unlike a jack plane.
Having now purchased the jack plane, it seems they were right. Anyway, that's my experience.
I have not handled a Vertias #4 1/2, but a smoother is a very different tool. A Record 05 jack has a narrower blade (2") and a nice heft for heavier work, as well as the obviously longer bed. Get a Hock blade (less chatter, plus other good stuff), spend ~45 minutes truing the bed (sandpaper/glass works well), and you are still looking at around $100 for the package--just under my no-consult limit with the wife... :)
It is a versitile tool, but a scrub plane is still better for rough work. I have an L-N, and bought an extra blade with it to experiment with the radius. I took it to a shallower profile by hand (not a quick process, but not difficult) to reduce the amount of work needed for cleanup after the scrub has done its job, and couldn't be happier with the results.
I have never been unhappy with Records; someone else may want to comment on the large Veritas planes.
/jvs
I have the L-N scrubber and it came well-radiused if that's a term that can be used. I hone it on oilstones because I find it easier to make the sweeping motion necessary to maintain the radius vs. the same motion using the sandpaper on glass method. Don't ask me why, I think it's just easier.
I haven't had to do a regrind yet and I'm a little scared of it. I've been honing that baby like my life depended on removing the smallest amount of steel possible!
I am about to buy the little ECE smoother that has the iron and wedge arrangement - they're very attractively priced. Tell me how you go about adjusting the depth on your plane. Do you have any tips to pass along?
Thanks 'bra.
Can you draw a picture of that sweeping motion? I just used a Vertias honing guide, tipping it on edge, sort of. Really it seems as if only the center 1/2" to 3/4" is doing any cutting, so honing beyond that doesn't matter.
I have found setting the blade depth with the wedge is a hit-or-miss proposition. If you have the "right" depth before you put in the wedge, then the wedge will drive it too deep. Yet you can't tell exactly how much deeper the wedge will drive it. Frankly, I don't think I'd buy a smoothing plane with the wedge mechanism, just for that reason. Like anything else, though, I'm sure that with lots of practice you get the feel of it.
My only suggestion is tap very lightly to set the wedge. If you smack it hard, it is a bitch to remove. You can almost, but not quite, get it tight enough with hand pressure alone.
It's kind of a sweep with a simultaneous rocking motion; hell I wish I could draw something like that for you Mark. The L-N iron comes so cambered that using a honing guide is not a workable option so this is a free-handed process for me.
I still think I'm going to buy the smoother though. I'm intrigued by something that doesn't cost close to $300. I've been using a Record smoother that's set up quite nicely (and it is certainly not very expensive), but the ECE is more of an impulse buy. I'm curious about the quality and thickness of the iron, too. I may turn my son loose with the thing - he's showing more curiosity about how things work in the shop.
I'm also trying to put together a little woodworking course for some interested guys at my church. As part of the course, I want to present a tool inventory at different price points say, $500, $1,000, and $1,500 (all hand tools of course). I've ordered the ECE rebate plane and am about the place the order for the smoother. If I like 'em they go on the list because the prices are certainly good. I'm staying will all current production tools as I don't want to send beginners on a wild goose chase over at EBay. I'm also going to show them simple plans for a 2x4 workbench with an MDF top and Record vice. I really want to show these guys how they can make nice stuff and not spend an absolute fortune on tools, or become full-time tool collectors and tuners and part-time furnituremakers. If I have my way, these guys are not going to sit around wondering which one is better - Jet or Delta.
Sounds great Chas go for it.
these guys are not going to sit around wondering which one is better - Jet or Delta.
They could sit around wondering which one is better - ECE or Record.
You got me there....
Wow. That's a terrific idea. When you get your "syllabus" together you should post it at Knots, and keep on posting it every time a beginner asks "What should I buy?" A lot of non-beginners would be interested also, because for many of us it takes a while before the use of good hand tools even appears on the radar, so brainwashed have we become by Norm and the tool reviews and the advertisements, etc.
I will. I'm in the process of (again) culling my own tools down to the essentials so I can't be accused of not walking the walk. I've really tried to do an about face over the last several months regarding the expense of setting up a decent shop. It's just a hideous proposition to me that able-bodied people getting into the craft think that they have to cram their garage or basement full of power equipment in order to do good woodworking.
Chas,
I too think it's a great idea. I've been reading Ian Kirby's dovetailing book and he suggests you only need the Jack, Jointer and Block plane...so there are lots of opinions but for a newbie its hard to put the opinions in context.
I think Frenchy made some good arguments also. I started out watching Norm and learned how I could make stuff without skills...just buy your way into the hobby. Now I'd like to step away from plywood and s4s and really make something. I have purchased a few book and read several that were available in our library but, quite frankly, I have not found the debth of detailed instruction that is necessary...yet. Ian's book is very good in that area.
I would be happy to be a guinea pig if you would like to bounce any ideas for clarity or additional questions the newbie might have relative to the topic.
I appreciate your offfer and I'll surely keep it in mind. Ian's dovetail book is good and very detailed. I used to pretty much use his method but I've gotten away from using a coping saw to using chisels exclusively to remove waste. Clearly, his method works but in my opinion has the woodworker working too hard paring sockets flat when the only thing that matters are the shoulders. I undercut sockets (ala Tage Frid) with a chisel and pretty much blow and go. It's a lot faster and end grain doesn't glue worth a damn anyway so why worry about perfectly flat sockets as Kirby suggests is appropriate?
What I've discovered with my adventures in dovetailing over the years if that you're spending a lot of time paring anything having to do with the joint something has not gone well. I do heartily agree with Kirby when he stresses that success is a joint that fits directly from the saw.
With that said, I always recommend his book to novice dovetailers as it is by far the most complete treatment that I've seen and it's always hard to argue with success.
Chasstanford,
I'm glad to hear you say you've moved away from the coping saw...me too. Since high school coping saws have been a nemisis to my existence...I just chop away with the chisel and I hold the piece in the front vise of the workbench vertically..using the vise jaw to keep the chisel flat.
Ian's idea of having the reference face pointing inward and marking 1/32 shy of full thickness so you can plane flat afterwards is great. I also like the idea of starting with two 18" long mahognay boards to practice on ...
Recently I purchased a 6" Starrets (sp?) try square to help with the marking. What I did not know was weather I should have bought a 12" or a 4" or a double square 6". It's probably a very minor issue but I don't know..maybe it is major.
BG, I use a 12" Starrett combo. square. Sometimes it's a bit unwieldy but using it for everything I can is consistent with my philosophy of keeping the overhead low. Having ditched the coping saw I look back on how unnatural it really felt and it's another tool to have to fool with and the process did not need it - using a chisel at some point in the process is a lock and I ultimately found it silly to put the chisel down to pick up a coping saw.
I've practiced on just about every well accepted furniture species known to man. I think it's a good idea to practice on what you'll actually be using to make your projects. They all chisel and saw quite differently. I found Mahogany really susceptible to lifting at the shoulder line (hence destroying the crispness) if the chisel was set for too much of an undercut - much more so than other species. So I undercut sockets in Mahogany only very slightly. Stuff like this is good to know before you work on project stock.
Hello,
I guess that I may be jealous of you guys that can but the LN planes. My wife wouldn't be thrilled if I spent that much money. I buy my planes on ebay or at garage sales. I have stanley planes ranging from a #3, several 4's, a few 5's, couple of sixes, couple of 7's, one 8, a 40, that I spent from $2.00 to $40.00. I bought my 90, 92,192, and norris shoulder plane cheaper than retail. I enjoy the thrill of the hunt. There are some real bargains on ebay ( I am addicted to ebay) that are hare to pass. My wife doesn't understand why I am thrilled to get a plane blade sharp enough to shave hair on my arm with while I listen to a tv show.
I am trying to say that for a new user of hand planes should look around for bargains. They may be next door at a garage sale.
have a good evening,
Chuck
That's a good point, Chuck. Beginners would also need to have some idea of how to give an old plane a basic tuning. I have LN and old planes off of ebay; I like trying them all. I have now taken the road of building my own planes. I am still choosing the wood for my first one. What encouraged me to go that route is the feedback that I got from experienced woodworkers who do the same: they can whip out a top-notch plane in an hour or two (not including time for the glue to dry) suited for the job at hand. Imagine making five different smoothers in less time than it takes to choose a LN, and at a fraction of the price... Charles you could still brag about low tool investment and still have more planes than you need! Plus you have the pleasure of combining tool acquisition with woodworking skills. (It's the ultimate postmodern woodworking experience: making woodworking tools with woodworking tools...).
Plinthe
Mark:
Where did you find the ECE Scrub? I've been looking through all of my catalogs and can't seem to locate it.
Dick
my e-mail has changed since I last signed in here.
[email protected]
I got it from Lee Valley. But you can order them from David Warren Direct at 800-724-7758. I would have done so, but he was out of stock. Good luck. And let me know if you come up with an easy way to grind and hone the radiused blade.
Hi Mark,
The curved blades are ones that are easiest sharpened freehand, using the same technique that you do for a gouge (figure eights while the blade is twisted side to side as you hone). Look up how to sharpen gouges in any sharpening book
To grind the radius, use a bench grinder but pivot the blade around a point towards the back of the rest.
These beasties don't need an exact radius, anything approximate will do. They're designed to hog out huge amounts of wood in a hurry
Cheers,
eddie
Try this technique to sharpen your radiussed iron.
Message 10882.7
Highland Hardware in Atlanta has them too...
Mark,
I know what you mean. I bought a # 40 scrub at a second hand store about ????12 years ago. Finally used it on a big maple slab (big leaf) and I was very impressed. What a great little tool!! And to think I only paid less than $20 for it! It's great when life works out in your favor once in a while haha.
Enjoy those tools!!
Mack
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