Hey all,
Sears has a new line of cabinet Table Saws out, like this:
Just wondering what you guys thought of it and the Sears reputation………?
I have the old Sears (1987) contractor left tilt w/ only 1 hp motor. One of those “flex drive” models that has been marginal it’s whole life; but its gotten me this far without too much fuss. If I do upgrade my TS, can I get $150 for this old one?
thanks!
Edited 6/9/2004 12:01 am ET by rdw
Replies
The Biesemeyer commercial fence is a big improvement, are the rails the same as supplied by Biesemeyer?
The miter gage looks marginal as does the splitter and guard. I would like to see the inside to see the trunion and motor.
Scott
The rail is Beisemeyer.
Yes, the miter is low quality for sure. I'll see if I can get a photo of that trunnion.
The motor is 1.5 hp that "develops" 1.875 HP........so they say........
The addition of a Biese fence is step in the right direction IMHO. Since 1997 they've done alot of backsliding. The actual level of quality of these saws is "TBD".
Yes, I was wondering if Sears was making a small move back in the right direction in terms of quality. I am wondering how long it will take Sears to ruin Lands End now that they are moving there production to China.
Scott
RDW,
You can buy a 3hp Grizzly for the same price. Something to consider.
Doug
Yes, I've been digging thru the threads and found the Grizzly 1023???(or similar) for $795 or $895 Left tilt.
A very viable option.......as most reviews on the Griz'z is positive.
I purchased the left tilt model about a year ago and have been very staisfied with the product and the services.
rdw,
I'm not sure the jury is not still out on the hybred saws....De Walt and Jet have had theirs out for a few years now...don't know about Sears model.
I'd go with the Griz 1023s because I know its an upgrade...and the service is anxious to please. The Sears has a lot of parts that could be defective...not so sure the local people will help very much
since these saws have 3 hp, I'm wondering:
my old sears contractor w/ 1 hp has a very tuff time with stock over 4/4 and the blade will usually "bog" down & stop on heavy stock.
My question is.............In a way, is this safer than a 3HP saw which would probably "kickback"????
Sounds like a splitter is a "must have" safety piece for a 3+ HP saw....?????
['scuze me BG] --
"Sounds like a splitter is a "must have" safety piece for a 3+ HP saw....?????"
A splitter is a must have for all saws, regardless of power.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 6/9/2004 2:36 pm ET by forestgirl
Bogging the blade down till it stops is a dangerous action in it self. So, I think that more HP and less bogging is safer. Very few saws come with a splitter/gaurd that is worth a damn. Check to see if the Sears can be upgraded to an Excaliber or other aftermarket splitter.
Mike
Thanks Mike for your opinion. I was hoping to find the lesser of two evils and you have given me that info - thanks!
Griz also makes a 2hp 110v saw - I may check it out. (just for the hassle and expense of a 220v out to the garage - my breaker box is FULL!)
If I do opt for the 3HP 220v, can one use an extension cord ....and if yes, what guage???
Roy
The Griz 1023S110 (2hp 110v version) draws about 24 amps @ 110v and will in most cases still require a wiring upgrade....soooo might as well go with 220v and get the big boy from the start since there's no cost savings for the 110v model.
Taunton has an extension cord chart, showed up in my Google search. It's on this page, which has excellent ext. cord info on it:http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/pages/h00010.asp
and looks like this:
View Image
Wire gauge chart
It's important to match a tool's total draw with a properly sized extension cord. Voltage drop caused by a cord that's too thin or too long can damage motors or even cause fires. The chart below tells you how to determine the correct wire gauge for the job.
Cordlength
Amperage rating(found on motor-housing face plate)
0-2
2-5
5-7
7-10
10-12
12-15
25 ft.
16 ga.
16 ga.
16 ga.
16 ga.
14 ga.
14 ga.
50 ft.
16 ga.
16 ga.
16 ga.
14 ga.
14 ga.
12 ga.
100 ft.
16 ga.
16 ga.
14 ga.
12 ga.
12 ga.
150 ft.
16 ga.
14 ga.
12 ga.
12 ga.
200 ft.
14 ga.
14 ga.
12 ga.
10 ga.
View Imageforestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Funny you asked that question. I was looking at the spec's on two of Grizzlys saws today. In the manual it has a table for ext cords. I will post it below.
Length of ext/AWG
Amps
25
50
100
0-6
16
16
16
7-10
16
16
14
11-12
16
16
14
13-16
14
12
12
17-20
12
12
10
21-30
10
10
No
Forest Girl just posted the name of a magazine that was just published recently that goes into the table saw in great detail. I had a chance to look at it at the local books-a-million and it goes into great detail about 110 .vs. 220. You should check it out. http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=18084.1 I would second the 220 route.
I was dead set on the unisaw for myself but now I am looking at Grizzly.
Edited 6/9/2004 8:54 pm ET by bones
Edited 6/9/2004 8:59 pm ET by bones
Wow!!
S0 @ 24 amps, I've only got 10 ft of reach!!!
I've got my little contractor on wheels and I usually roll it out to the driveway for lots of cutting ( keep the sawdust down in the garage ). Thanks for the info!!
I would also need to upgrade my moveable base for this hefty of a saw......
Roy
You can use 220 on an extension cord if (big if) you use the proper sized cord, and the proper NEMA plugs. I made an extension cord to allow my generator to be hooked into my house from the outside. It was 220v. I could fire up the generator outside and get the power back into the house. The critical thing is the words proper size plug and wire for the amperage you will need. If you don't feel comfortable doing it yourself, call an electrician and pay him to make you one. I will include a good article on ext cords. It will lay out some basics. I would stress if you don't know what you are doing pay someone to do it for you, but it can be done safely.
http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/pages/h00010.asp
Edited 6/10/2004 11:55 am ET by bones
I happened to be at Lowes at lunch and took the opportunity to look at the factory ext cords they have. They have a 25' 10/4 twist lock ext cable that was real beefy. It has a male nema L14-30p connector and a female nema L14-30r connector. It was not cheap at $87.00. It is marketed as a generator cable. The other cable they had was a 50' 10/3 20 amp cable with a 20a standard plug. That's the one with one blade horizontal, and the other one vertical. It was only $33.15. You could probably do them cheaper if you bought the cable to the length you need, and put your own ends on, but these had nice molded factory ends. Hope this helps.
If I do opt for the 3HP 220v, can one use an extension cord ....and if yes, what guage???
Roy
There is NO extension cord for 220v and don't try to make one. This is for your own safety because nobody wants to see you get fried with the large amperage involed. Do yourself a favor and spend the extra money and get it wired right.
Dave in Pa.
No reason he can't make an extension cord for this as long as it's the proper size wire. We use them in our shop with 240 volt 3 phase and 50 footers as well. It's not illegal or against OSHA to do this. Common sense is the prevailing guideline.
"nobody wants to see you get fried with the large amperage involed" I don't understand that statement. The amps pulled by 220V-wired equipment is generally half that of the same piece of equipment when wired to 110V.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 6/10/2004 12:23 pm ET by forestgirl
To All,
There are rules and formulas for most things and one of these that are used for electricity is the following.
..........P = V x I (Watts).
This means that power (P) is equal to volts (V) times current (I) which results in a certain value rated in watts. Every electrical motor is rated at a certain wattage meaning that it only operates PROPERLY at that wattage.
For example, using the nameplate of a typical 1 1/2 HP Baldor motor which is designed to be wired at either 115 volts or 230 volts, you will see the volts listed at '115/230' and the amps listed at '18/9'. This means that if this particular motor were wired at 115 volts it would draw 18 amps. On the other hand if it were wired for 230 volts it would only draw 9 amps. Looking at it another way, we see that:
.......... P = 115 (volts) x 18 (amps) Watts , or
.......... P = 2070 Watts.
Now if it were wired at 230 volts we would get:
.......... P = 230 (volts) x 9 (amps) Watts, or
.......... P = 2070 Watts.
Both results are the same, because going back to what I said above, the manufacturer intended for this motor to operate at a certain wattage whether it is wired at 115 volts or 230 volts. In this example this wattage is 2070 watts.
So, as was pointed out by forestgirl, if you opt to wire an appliance or power tool at 230 volts you WILL cut the amperage in half.
In regards extension cables, wire used for extension cables are rated in either 'Ampacity' and/or in 'Maximum Wattage Load'. Following the National Electrical Code (NEC) you will find the following:
........Wire Gauge..........Ampacity ..........Maximum Wattage Load
............. 12....................20....................1920 watts @ 120 volts
............. 12....................20....................3840 watts @ 230 volts
............. 10....................30....................2880 watts @ 120 volts
............. 10....................30....................5760 watts @ 230 volts
So for our motor example above, if you wired it at 120 volts you would have to use an extension cable made from 10-gauge wire because 2070 watts is greater than the allowable max. wattage of the 12-gauge wire which is only 1920 watts. Whereas the max. wattage of the 12-gauge wire is 3840 watts IF wired at 230 volts.
One last point. Every circuit is regulated by a breaker or fuse which has a fixed rating in amps. Exceed this amperage and it either trips or must be replaced. Having said this, it should be clear that a 230 volt motor/appliance makes half the demand on the breaker/fuse that a 115 volt demand would because the 230 volt motor - again, going back to what forestgirl said - pulls half the amps that the 115 equipment would.
I hope this helps.
Phillip
P.S. Sorry for all the ... 's but it was the only way I knew to separate the data examples.
Edited 6/13/2004 4:32 pm ET by PhillipB
Phillip,
Great post......thanks for the education!!
All you guys/gals have been great!!
Roy
Roy,
Glad I could be of some help.
Many folks get all 'twisted up' about this electrical stuff which is too bad because - in my opinion - we should all know as much as we can about it because we are all affected by it in one way or the other. I know people who have stood around helpless until an electrician arrived to re-set their breaker. Money well spent? I don't believe so.
That old saying about 'ignorance being bliss' has never sat well with me so I have always tried to learn as much as I could about things throughout my life. I will admit to getting into some trouble while 'learning' as a child. In particular I remember taking my mother's new electric alarm-clock apart the day after she bought it. I had no trouble putting it back together. It LOOKED okay. Only problem was it didn't work as good as it did before I 'checked' it out. In fact, it didn't work at all. Could have been all those 'extra' parts that I had left over. Not sure. Took month's of allowance to pay for that learning experience.
'Live and learn' was another old saying which didn't sit well with me on that day. My grand dad thought it was pretty funny. He's probably still laughing. And that was 40 years or so ago.
Anyway, being the power tool users that we are, knowing how it all works - from breaker box to power tool and back to the breaker box - can come in pretty handy. No doubt it can be quite confusing, but once you understand the basic's, then it all begins to make sense. And most of us are smart enough not to get creative before we know what we are doing. Someone may not understand how those 'charcoal briquettes' ended up by the main service panel.
Regards,
Phillip
Roy,
You can safely make an extension cord, or buy one if you prefer. My dad has been using a 20' 6 gauge extension cord for our 50A welder for over 10 years. Just make sure you don't cut the cord, run the truck over it, or in any way damage the outer covering in a way that it would short out or expose wires.
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
This site has a table to size wire depending on gauge and amperage to be carried. For your application, I would suggest 6 gauge, which will carry 37 amps. Buy 3-wire cable, with a ground, stranded, with a flexible rubber outer coating. Also buy good quality boxes for the outlet, and a good plug. You can even get a rubber or plastic coated plug and outlet for safety.
Don't be suprised to get $50 tied up in a 20' extension cord. The cable may be up to $2/ft, with a $10 outlet and a $5 plug. Quality is not cheap, and cheap extension cords don't last.
Good luck,
yieldmap
There ARE 220 extension cords. I do flood renovation and run giant 220v blowers and dehumidifiers. I purchased the cords from Grainger, they have at least 30 different 220 extension cords in various lengths. Search Amazon for "220 extension cords". If you ever go to an outdoor concert look at the extension cords going to the amps, look at the stage lighting, look in hospitals. Oh yea, I have an RV and there is a 30 foot 30 Amp 220v. cord sitting there waiting for the next trip to Colorado. Which reminds me Wlamart will sell the cords in their RV supplies area. It is not any more dangerous. If the cord is UL approved and rated for the use then it is as safe as the extension cord you use for the christmas tree. In fact because the voltage drop is less at 220 v. there is less of a chance overheating the motor.
The other poster was right that you will have to upgrade the wireing reguardless. A typical 15 amp residential circut will BARLEY run a 1.5 HP contractors saw unless for some reason you have 12 ga straight from the box.
In your box do you have 1 inch or half inch breakers (some times called two gang) The 1/2 inch look like two little breakers in a normal sized one. If you can pull the big ones and replace with the small ones you will create more open lines. Just don't overload the supply or box's wattage rating.
MIke
please excuse my spelling.
Edited 6/11/2004 1:19 am ET by mike
There are huge misconceptions about extension cords and their dangers. I won't try to recall all my electrical engineering to agree or argue with the many points made, but there are two simple tests that always work...
If the cord gets warm in use, you are overloading it, and need to find another solution Be sure to check the temperature of the plug, socket, and multiple points on the cord - a kink or a "run over it" might damage part of the cord, and cause a particular area to heat. Remove the plug and feel the blades to see if they are hot - if so, the plug or socket is inadequate.
Put a small light bulb at the end of the cord, connected at the same point as the tool. If the bulb dims materially when the tool starts, you have a voltage drop in the cord that will also strain the motor. Find another solution.
The wire the runs from the power generating station to your shop is electrically the same as an extension cord. The extension cords get a bad name because they are often too small, poorly maintained, have dirty plugs, are abused (stepped on, kinked, run over) etc. A properly sized and maintained extension cord is not inherently a problem. ________________________Charlie Plesums Austin, Texashttp://www.plesums.com/wood
Thats interesting Dave considering that you can build an extension cord for 440v with no problems. Building a extension cord for 220 volts isn't any problem at all I've had one for years as well as the 440v extension cord for my welder. You can buy the heavy cord & plugs to do this, yes it costs some bucks but it can be done & done safely. I have a 440v 25' cord for my welderSucking.......Whoosh.......Yowl........Whoosh.........Thrump puttytat up the DC..
Back in the UK, its all 240volt in the homes. No one gives a second about using an extension cord. So whats the worry?
I stand corrected and apologize for that which I said.
Dave in Pa.
Roy, if your breaker box is full, I'd think the chances of being able to support a 24-amp machine are slim, and as mentioned by Scotty, you'd need to pay for an upgrade anyway. 24 amps is alot! Sounds to me like you're at the point you need to get 240 set up in there and trim down the amp-load. It'll pay off when you get dust collection equipment in there. There might be other machines you can re-wire to 220V also.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Yes, the box is full! We put another clothes dryer downstairs and actually "share" that 220 line with the original dryer line upstairs. That being said, we have seldom used the downstairs dryer ( we used to keep baseball kids for the summers and needed the extra laundry room for them - long story (but good!)) So..........good to know what's ahead!
I take it - the Griz 1023 is tuned up for perfect crosscuts and rips?????? Good construction and accurate machining and adjustments??
Thanks,
Roy
"my old sears contractor w/ 1 hp has a very tuff time with stock over 4/4 and the blade will usually "bog" down & stop on heavy stock. "
Most would say ...need more power. The other option is too look at the blade. Less teeth requires less power also much cheaper than upgrading saw and or motor. Dedicated rip blades are a huge difference in power on a contractor saw. Cheapest upgrade.
rdw,
I often resaw oak, cherry and hard maple pieces that measure 7x7. I raise the blade (thin kerf)to full height (3 1/4" high)and let her rip.....flip it over and cut the other side. I take my time but it ain't slow.....
I usually use a splitter (FG would kill me if I didn't) but not when I'm resawing. It's not a problem because both hands can be on top of the stock to control....and my knee by the switch....
In reading the past 10 post there seem to be some confusing over extension cords. Heres my take on it. Pushing amperage from a generator to a house is not the same thing as pulling current from a motor. I my self don't like to use extension cords, you will always loose power at the other end of the wire, also you cannot compare a dryer to electric motors due to the type of surging amperage that motors create ( assuming we are using a table saw) when at start up, and under load verses a heating element that does not have a surge at start up. Don't get me wrong extension will work if the are properly rated for the tool that you are using. If I do use a extension I always use the heaviest one I can find, even a 10 gauge or better, even at 110 volts , that's an over kill, but I rather have that than possible burn out the motor of the tool.
I can understand your wanting to "overkill" on the gauge wire but you only need a wire rated for the load. If you only are using for example a router at 15amps at 110v (~ 1650 watts), having a 10 awg ext cord will not hurt, but it will do no better than a 25' 14awg extension cord rated for 13-16 amps. I will give you the 10awg cable will be able to handle a heavier load and give you room for growth. I know a router is not the same as a table saw. I only used that as an example of amps. The point I'm trying to make is, there are commercial extension cords that can handle heavy loads. The cover will carry a rating of the cable and should list the NEMA plug type. If you make your own, use the proper size cable and plug for the length of the cable being used and the amps @ voltage pulled. If you cant find one in a retail store such as lowes or HD, have an electrician make one for you if you don't feel comfortable making it yourself.
Edited 6/10/2004 9:05 pm ET by bones
Pulling and pushing electricity? Thats a new one.
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
"...not so sure the local people will help very much."
A true story.
I was in a large Sears store close to my home in Oak Park, IL and asked the salesgirl if they had any feeler gauges. In a startled voice she said, "Say what???" Another salesgirl blushed and said, "They're right over here, sir!" The male salesperson standing by looked at the first salesgirl and started laughing.
So BG, I suppose you're correct when you say that the local Sears help would not do any of us much good. Sears gets the 'skilled' workers that they pay for and we suffer for it. Having said this you can't help but wonder where else they're 'saving $$'.
I will say this though, they do have an excellent return policy. But of course one could argue that this is because they are not so sure about the quality of their products. You could also make the assertion that they are very confident about their products else why would they put in writing, 'Satisfaction Guaranteed or Your Money Back'.**
And so the dog chases it's tail ...
Regards,
Phillip
** This is out of a current Sears catalog.
It's typical of Sears to short-change some part of the machinery, and what stands out with this saw is that it has only a 1.75HP motor. You would get much more for your money buying one of the Grizzly cabinet saws.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/items-list.cfm?key=530010&sort=price
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
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