Sears experience for all to read
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Good Morning all,
This is my experience over the last week that I thought I would relay to
you. I have been looking for a table saw and posted on this forum to get
some advice. At one point in my reading someone posted the link to the
new Craftsman 3/4 cabinet saw and it caught my interest. Most
suggestions went to the Grizzly contractors or cabinet saw but I thought
I would have a look at this one from Sears. After seeing the saw and
some of the features it had (left tilt, t-slot mount for the fence
making it easier to slide over for the occasional sheet stock, dust
collection from cabinet, cast components for motor mounts and such) I
decided to buy it. This is my experience:
I called my local Sears store last Saturday night at 8:50 to check stock
because I wanted to go see one when they opened on Sunday. The girl who
answered the phone said that they did not have one in stock or a floor
model to look at so I asked, whoops she hung up so fast I didn’t get a
chance to ask my next question. I called back immediately and got the
same girl. I asked her if she could call the other stores to in the area
to see if they had one on their floor to look at and she said she only
had 10 minutes left in her shift and didn’t have time. I didn’t have the
phone #’s for any other stores available so I kindly asked he to just
call the store in Ann Arbor, MI and she said that nobody answers the
phone that late because they were busy. I asked for a manager and was
put on hold. I finally hung up at 9:15.
The next morning I called the manager of this Sears store to see if he
could check stock and let him know what had been told to me the previous
night and he agreed that the girl handled it improperly, that she should
have taken my phone # and called me back when it was more convenient for
her to be able to check stock. He also said that Sears employees don’t
answer their phones that late to take such a request because they are
busy. He also agreed that this is a problem for customer service and
told me I should call the 800 customer relations # to complain. I asked
him since he was aware of the problem why he hadn’t called himself. He
didn’t seem to think it was his problem but he did check stock in the
Adrian, MI store and said that they had 4 saws in stock and probably one
was set up as a display. So off I went to the Adrian store about 45
minutes away. Upon arriving at the store I found none of the
aforementioned saw on display and asked one of the sales associates if
he could pull one of the four he had in stock so I could see it. He
couldn’t do that without the manager’s approval so off he went. When he
came back with someone and I asked if they could let me see one. He said
he couldn’t pull one out of stock and open it without it being
purchased. I told him that I couldn’t buy one without seeing it and
being a manager he should certainly make the decision to let me see
something so I wouldn’t have to spend $650.00 plus 6% tax sight unseen.
He said he wasn’t a manager and he would have to go get one. Again
someone else showed up and I made the same request. After complaining to
this woman for a while she finally agreed to pull one out of stock for
me to see. However after checking further they didn’t have any stock of
this saw. Their inventory showed that they had four but none were at the
store. She said that this was my fault because I didn’t call her
personally to check stock. I asked her if she could call some other
stores and check stock and she said she would call the Monroe, MI store.
This was in the opposite direction of my home so I asked her to call the
Ann Arbor, MI store and the Lansing, Mi store and her response to me was
OH GOODY! Since she didn’t seem to be enthused about helping me I asked
to see the person that was in charge of the store that day and she said
she was it. So I left and called info to get the number for the Ann
Arbor, MI store hardware department. When the gentleman answered the
phone and I asked about stock of the 3/4 cabinet saw 1 1/2hp selling for
$649.95 he didn’t have a clue what I was talking about. I had forgotten
to write the model number down so I asked him if he could look at his
new product catalog under saws and find the model # of the one selling
for $649.95 and then check stock. Without hesitation he said, that saw
is not in stock. I asked for someone else and asked him or her about the saw
and he had one on the floor for display. Finally. He also told me I
should have described the saw different and would have gotten a
different response from the first guy I talked to. I drove up to Ann
Arbor, MI store and I did like the saw so I bought it. He wrote down the
date the saw would be in the store, which was the 15th of June. I checked
and the check was cashed and cleared on the 14th. I didn’t hear anything
from the store on the 15th or the 16th so I called when I got home from
work at 6:30 on the 16th. The store is over an hour from my house so I
didn’t have a phone book so I looked up the number on line. I called the
store and nobody had any knowledge of me purchasing a saw. They said
that I didn’t buy the saw from their store and I told them that I drove
all the way to Ann Arbor and bought the saw the previous Sunday. They
said that I didn’t. I asked for a manager and went round and round for a
long time. Finally they told me that I was talking to the Waterford, MI
store. All of the phone #’s for the Ann Arbor store were wrong on the
Yellow Pages web lookup. Seems like Sears would like to have that right
for customer convenience. Finally after getting through to the right
store I find that now the saw won’t be in until the 22nd. (“footnote”:
The last time I bought a saw that was on backorder from Sears for a week
it took me 1 and 1/2 years to get. Long week huh!) They told me they
didn’t even have them at the distribution center yet so I don’t know how
they can promise any delivery. So after buying and paying for a saw that
I should have been able to pick up on the 15th and finding I can’t have
it I called the Jackson store again. This is the closest one to my
house. Since buying a saw the previous Sunday the Jackson store had
rec’d one in stock for their display and hadn’t finished the display
yet. Funny how I can buy and pay for a saw and not be able to get it and
the store can get one delivered to them for their use. I asked the
store manager if I could have the display saw and he said no. Finally
having had enough with Sears I decided to call the customer complaint
line and got a very nice person that was willing to help me. While I was
still on the phone she called the store manager at Jackson and asked him
if I could have the display model and he told her no. He gave an excuse
that the machine for display comes in without a model # and there would
be no way to get service on it if something broke. I personally know
this is a lie and so did the woman from the complaint dept. After
hanging up with the store manager at the Jackson, MI store I asked her
if there is anything that can be done and she told me yes that she would
file the complaint and the store would get a reprimand but as far as the
manager lying through his teeth there is nothing that can be done and
there still isn’t a saw that I can have even though three stores in my
area have one. None of these stores will give me a saw that I paid for
and was promised to have by the 15th for any reason.
Now I am really kind of ticked off by the customer service that Sears
lacks and the customer relations dept unable to help me I called to get
the district managers phone # and nobody in any store has a phone # for
him. There are a number of stores in the Toledo, OH area and I was told
he works out of Toledo. I had to ask which store at least 5 times before
they were willing to tell me his exact location. Finally getting through
to his home store I am told he is out and traveling. Nobody knows where
he is. Nobody knows his schedule. Nobody knows his e-mail address. He
doesn’t have voice mail hooked up because there is a “new phone system”.
So the final place where I am at is being referred back to the 800
customer relations # where the woman I spoke to last night told me she
had no power to do anything about the way stores treat their customers
except put them in for a reprimand. Full Circle. However just out of
curiosity I called the 800 number again and found all I had gone through
the night before was moot. The woman that I spoke with recorded nothing,
opened no complaint file and not passed my concerns on to anyone. There
was no record of me calling at all. Go figure!
As I said previously in this letter it took me a year and a half to get
the last saw I ordered from Sears that was supposed to be on back order
for 1 week and they tried to cancel the order at least 8 times before I
finally rec’d it. Their excuse for this saw not being available is that
it is a new product. So was the last saw that I purchased from them at
the time. If I was told the truth about the delivery of the saw when I
purchased it I would have the Grizzly already delivered and operating in
my garage. This is the first tool I’ve bought for myself in at least 8
years that I remember for sure. Sears sure took the fun out of it. I
guess I just needed to experience Sears customer relations one more time
before I really understood. Thanks for your suggestions on the saw to buy from Grizzly. Today I called Grizzly and got a saw on its way. No problem at all.
Sincerely,
Tony P’Simer
Replies
Well, that is a truly gruesome story. You have my sympathy. While I'm no Sears fan, they did treat my right the one time I really had a problem, going far out of their way to make me happy. But I agree that their customer service is abysmal; this happened through a manager at the local store. This is a clear case or the Better Business Bureau, and maybe a lawyer.
Charlie
Charlie - if you had to wait 18months the last time you bought a saw from Sears, why would you ever go back to them for this purchase? You saved about $200 on the saw vs. the Grizzly model....all that driving and Bull$%&$ting on the phone...how much is your time worth?
Your right, I was stupid. When I finally got through to the District manager today to get this letter to him he was about as rude as the rest of the bunch. Never again will I darken the door of Sears. Got my tracking #'s from Grizzly today and am excited to get the saw. I've heard good things about it.
Tony
We already have enough youth, how about a fountain of smarts.
I've owned mine for close to a year now....love it.
Tony,
Sorry about your troubles with Sears. You should have given up on them sooner. Grizzly was a good move. I have two Grizzly machines and happy with both. Its funny though, you gave Sears every chance in the world to do and act right and they failed over and over. Go figure.
Go Walmart! :o)
Enjoy, Roy
Somehow, I am not surprised with this story of poor customer service experience from Sears. I doubt if any of the people in this story were hired because of their particular experience with woodworking tools -- they could have as easily been selling vacuum cleaners, tires, etc. And it certainly seems that Sears has deliberately chosen not to make customer service a valued part of their culture -- whatever they may say on the corporate level or in their ads.
But they sell really huge quantities of woodworking tools -- in fact I would suspect Sears sells more tools than their top 2-4 competitors combined.
Yet, it would probably be generous to say most of those tools ( at least the power tools and stationary items) are at best adequate. Usually they seem to rank at the bottom of the heap in magazine tool reviews. If you read through these forums, people are always having a problem of one sort or another with a Sears tool.
And people are often uniquely forgiving of these problems. I remember one recent post in a TS forum in which the guy said problems with the fence had made his Sears saw a source of aggravation for years, and yet "it was no big deal." It sounded like the saw was a piece of junk, and he took a kind of perverse pride in beating it into submission.
So my question is, with all these problems, why do so many people continue to buy Sears tools in such large quantities? Years ago, they were pretty much the only low cost alternative, but that is certainly no longer the case.
I know there are a lot of dedicated Sears fans out there, and it would be interesting to know why you continue to buy from a company that seems to have such difficulty producing quality tools with a decent level of customer service.
Sears - THE GOOD LIFE
hahahahahahahahahaha!!!
Do you also hit yourself on the head with a hammer for fun? Just kidding, but a year and a half?
Thats the problem with Sears..they really dont go the extra mile for the customer like a specialty store would..alot of young kids who have no-clue about whats going on...sure..you"ll pay a little more thru a specialty store..but for Me..its worth it..spending money should always come with the salesperson bending over backwards to make you happy.
JC
You have more much more tolerance than I would. I would have walked out way back at the beginning. Costumer Service ??? it got lost by these big stores. I bought a Grizzly saw and I love it.
Best of luck in your woodworking. Ken
I have not bought anything from a Sears in a long-long time, and there is a reason for that. I like to buy tools over the internet. No stupid humnas to deal with...except the UPS man.
Two sentences stood out (I didn't read the entire story):
it took me 1 and 1/2 years to get [it].
Why in the world would you buy anything from this company?! They get away with this complete lack of customer service because the customers put up with it!
Based on your experience, you actually think the care? Uhhhhhhh, I don't think so.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
The Sears stores in your area should outsource its employees to other countries. I am sorry you had people who don't care. Usually I find those sorts in Wally World. After spending 20+ years in the service industry, I have found if you p**s off your customers, you won't have any customers. My motto was to only promise what I could deliver, and definitely deliver what I promised.
About 3 years ago at the Sears store in Fort Worth I saw a 13" portable planer for sale for $149.00. I asked the tool area manager what was wrong with it. She said it didn't have the hand pushers or a box, otherwise, it was brand new. After speaking with my financial advisor (wife) I took the planer home.
Edited 6/19/2004 3:10 am ET by Chuck
While I sympathize with your problems, the fact that you had waited a year and a half for your last saw floors me. Maybe I'm missing something, but after the second week, I'd cancel and go elsewhere. You have the patience of a saint.
Good luck with the Grizzly, I think you will like it. I see you are in Jackson. For future purchases, take a cruise to Beaversmith Tools in Brighton, Woodcraft in Sterling Heights or Canton Twp., or Rockler in Royal Oak. There is another place east of Brighton off of Grand River, but the name escapes me. Even if you order off the internet, you can "touch and feel" the product at those stores.
You could also go to Electric Tool & Equipment in Ann Arbor. Lots of good stuff. Ask for Pete.
Actually the only reason I did wait for the saw was when I bought it it was on sale for an outstanding price. Right after the sale they discontinued the product I think because it was costing more to build it than they could profit from. This was the electronic RAS. Knowing that I had my order in and they had my money I knew they would have to produce a saw for me. Also knowing that a machine built for 1 instead of many would have much better quality. After finally getting the saw it has run flawlessly and the readout has worked flawlessly for about 12 years now. Where I have heard others mention this saw it was a common conclusion that it is junk. I really didn't need the saw badly when I bought it so I was willing to wait some. After a while it just became the principle of the whole thing and since they took my money I thought they should produce what was bought. I would never do it again.
In all actuality the Sears 3/4 cabinet saw has a lot of good qualities and it is really the saw that I wanted. I even purchased the 2 year extended warranty and figured on giving them the other $40 bucks to extend that to 5 years, that brings someone to your house to perform maintenance on the saw once a year. Since this is outsourced to a third party the service is pretty good. However, dealing with the Sears employees is a bad deal at best.
Tony
Maybe I need to start drinking from the fountain!
We already have enough youth, how about a fountain of smarts.
This whole story is kind of funny, Thats why I left Mich. 33 years ago, people that don't give a ####. I live in Lakeland Fl. And have delt with Sears stores from the east to the west coast and have always found them vary helpful and polite.
If you had that much trouble why not get your money back and buy a good saw?
You ought to send thisd story to the Chairman of Sears. No wonder they have lost their retailing leadership.
To All,
My recent experience with Sears.
I had just re-assembled my DJ-20 jointer after moving it into my basement and needed some tools so I headed for Sears which is close to my home in Oak Park, IL . On walking up to the tool counter I asked the salesgirl if they had any feeler gauges. In a startled voice she said, "Sa-ay what???" Another salesgirl blushed and said, "They're right over here, sir!" A male salesperson standing by looked at the first salesgirl and started laughing. True story.
Sears gets the 'skilled' workers that they pay for and we suffer for it. Having said this you can't help but wonder where else they're 'saving $$', er ... I mean being 'cost effective'.
I will say this and certainly not in defense of Sears, but I have and still use a Craftsman Contractor TS that I've had for approximately 8-10 years and it has served me well. However well it has served me it has 2 major flaws.
1. It's arbor will not support all of my Forrest dado blades, and;
2. If you raise the blade high enough it will bind and not turn. There was a recent post on this if I recall correctly.
So, is Sears just shortsighted? Cost cutting? Running a 'tight ship?' I haven't a clue. However, I have never 'suffered fools' well AND if I ever decide to purchase another TS it will not be from Sears. If they think that little of us it is only proper that we take our hard earned money elsewhere.
Regards,
Phillip
Surely you guys know that Sears "bids out" all of it's tools and makes very few decisions on any of them. They are simply the middle-men in the whole process. 8-10 years ago Emerson Electric (Rigid) made a lot of their power tools (like Phillip's saw) in Tennessee but now a similar tool may likely be made by Ryobi or worse! I know that Sears has a Craftsman router table that is almost identical to the Bosch/Skil model that Lowe's sells. Big difference is the price and the fact that only Craftsman routers will fit the Craftsman table (without a $19.99 adapter plate). Sad to say that Sears is not the same company they were 15-20 years ago. No matter how attractiver the price just think "Ryobi" when you consider buying something from them.
I have Ryobi and am satisfied with them. Many have limited amounts of money to invest in tools. We look for the bang for our buck. They get the job done, that is what counts, not the label.Kevin Arceneaux
Visit the Lone Wolf Activities for MS Trainsimulator at http://www.3dtrains.com
There was a quarter last year where Sears made more revenue from their credit card divsion than from retail. It gives you the idea that they are really just a credit card operation with a weak-@@s storefront attached. I'm sorry for your experience with them. Any Sears execs invited to respond.
Actually, Ed, Sears just sold off their credit business, along with some other businesses, in order to concentrate on their core business, the stores.
I am not a Sears exec, but the spouse of a Sears employee. It seems that everyone I talk to has a horror story about Sears. We do a lot of shopping there, and while I have seen my share of poor customer service, I can usually say that they stand behind what they sell. You can bring in any Craftsman hand tool, no matter how old and abused and if it is broken, they will give you a replacement off the shelf, no questions asked. I once brought back a low end reciprocating saw that I had recently bought. It was not in the origonal box and covered with drywall dust. I told the manager that it was not powerful enough for me and could I trade up to a stronger model. No problem. I brought back a router that had broken and was just past the warranty date. The manager replaced it anyway. We buy kids' clothes, batteries, tires, appliances, electronics, carpeting, hot water heaters at Sears. I added a bathroom on the second floor of the house and went to the Great Indoors (owned by Sears). We got the toilet, tub, sinks, fixtures and tiles there. The girl in the tile department who helped me with the tedious task of finding about 15 different tile types and got the order exactly right, told me how much she loves her job. I had the hot water heat removed and replaced with two zones of forced air heat and a/c by Sears. They were the lowest bid I got for the job, and a week after I signed the contract, the salesperson called me and said a promotion just came up and she upgraded me from 10 SEER a/c units to 12 SEER units.
Also, in these days of good American jobs being replaced by low paying service jobs, Sears is one of the best service sector companies to work for. They have great health insurance, competitive pay, 401k with a generous match, flexible spending, discount stock purchase program, etc. They also don't strong arm their vendors like Wal-Mart does.
I suppose all of this doesn't make a d**n bit of difference to you if you went through what the poster of this thread did, but for all the bad storie I hear about Sears, I just wanted to share a few good ones.
As I write this, there have been 38 responses to the original post -- and yours is the only one with positive comments about Sears.
I can't help but wonder if your good experience was in any way related to the fact your wife is a Sears employee? As one of the family, so to speak, perhaps you got extra care and attention -- something that is apparently withheld from many other customers.
I have been buying stuff from Sears for maybe 35 years.
I've seen alot of changes over the years.
My experiences range from the great to the horrible.
Some things, I wouldn't think a second about going to Sears to buy.
Others, I wouldn't even consider.
Some stores are great, others terrible.
Like all things in life, accept the good and work around the bad.
Should you ever feel like listening, ask about my panasonic experience, just as bad.
Jeff
No, I don't think I get treated any differently, I just want to be positive about the company because my spouse works there and Sears puts the food on our table. On the other hand, I know that Sears has much, much room for improvement in customer serivce, and I hope they can do it and win back some of their old customers.
I just got off the phone with Sears. After drafting the letter yesterday morning I tried my best to get anybodys e-mail to send it to and nobody from any dept from Sears would give me one. I finally got the number for the district Manager last night and left a msg for a return call and posted this letter online here and elsewhere. I got two phone calls from Sears offering me the floor model today. When I called to tell them I wasn't interested that I had bought the Grizzly Saw and they could come here to read the letter I tried to send to them yesterday the manager of the Ann Arbor Store hung up on me. So I called back and invited the asst manager to respond. Well see what happens.
You wouldn't buy tires from Woodcraft, would you? So why buy woodworking tools from Sears?
Bandsaw tires?
Edited 6/21/2004 8:16 am ET by Jeff in Vermont
First let me state that I neither own stock or have a relative that works for Sears.
I can sympathize with your bad experience. I don't think sears has a policy of bad service, but they definitely failed you. Don't settle for venting your story here. Contact the company and get someone at the executive level and share your story. As with any large retailer, they don't always manage to get the people with the right skills in the appropriate place. I think they would want to know what happened and address your issues. I have many Sears tools and have been quite satisfied. I use mostly the hand & garden tools because I like taking them back with they wear out and I get a new one. I have had sales people that did not know a screw driver from a center punch, but I can say the same for all major retailers (HD & Lowes). I don't know how many tapes & hammers I've had for the price of one. Never a question asked, just handed me a new one. Now power tools are not quite up to the same level as some other brand names, but they are not that bad either. When I was a young pup and that's all I could afford, they did the job. I still have my first real power tool I bought from sears 18 years ago, and the RAS is still humming.
PS I went by my local sears and looked at the new cabinet saw and it really is not that bad. The Bessy fence and cast iron tops are pretty solid. The saw is made in china and has some definite faults (way under powered and cheap weak looking parts), but not horrible either. I would like to know how the Grizzly is. I have been looking at the 1023.
"way under powered" -- From what I've seen in specs on various tools, the vast majority of the Craftsman power tools fall into this category. It's one of the main approaches they seem to use to save money. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I disagree that it's solely the low level, untrained staff that's to blame for all this. Attitudes, both good and bad, and devotion to customer service come from the very top and work their way down.
One example for good service, believe it or not, is McDonalds. My girlfriend and I were at an upscale restaurant one night for dinner. They had a special that included biscuits. I didn't order the special, but I wanted to substitute biscuits for the bread choice on my dinner. The waitress and then the manager both refused. The manager actually said that they had only the exact same number of biscuits as they had the special dinners, so if they gave me one... Needless to say we both walked out and never went back.
My bicycle club often stop at a McDonalds along the way. They have "bacon and egg biscuit" breakfasts but nothing like a single biscuit. Many times I have asked for just a biscuit. I have never been refused.
On long rides and in the summer we bicyclers often want our water bottles re-filled. No McDonalds has ever refused to fill our water bottles--even if we bought no food or drinks. Only once were we given trouble: the worker behind the counter told us her job was to sell food, and not to fill water bottles for us. The manager was within earshot and heard this. He took her aside and in no uncertain terms let her know that her job was to serve customers, and that meant giving them free water though they bought nothing. He made a point of saying it just loud enough that we and all the counter help could hear.
The restaurant went out of business not too long after. I believe McDonalds is still around, here and there, and enjoys modest success.
The point: the managers of those places set the tone of "customer service." From the very top to the very bottom one was dedicated to making customers happy. It's not a coincidence that successful businesses generally have good customer service. Sears is cutting its own throat.
Alan
Good choice on the Grizzly...their after purchase support was just as good as their sales people. I had a part missing from the fence...I gave them a call and within minutes they had another one on the way. The saw itself is great! I've never been as happy with a new tool purchase
There's not a saw on the market good enough to put up with that over. Cancel the transaction, shake the dust from your feet, and move on. There's alot of good saws out there.
sears is penny wise and pound foolish. a few months ago i naively ordered a replacement knob for a twelve yr old kenmore washing machine. it shows up no problem- just what i need, great. my credit card bill shows up- TWENTY SIX FREAKIN DOLLARS!!!! for a piece of plastic with a threaded aluminum insert. about a month later my wife and i go shopping for a new dual fuel range. never even looked at sears. our $1800 went to a local appliance store.
m
Do you think that there are any costs involved in stocking parts for twelve year old appliances?
Good point, cstanford. I've also heard people rant about stores not having replacement parts for their near-antique appliances, tools and cars.
I don't have a lot of Craftsman tools, but I can't really complain about their performance - or parts availability. When my 1974 vintage router needed a new trigger switch a year ago, I went to the Sears website, found the owners manual and ordered the switch. It showed up within a few days. Yes, it was a little expensive, but that router has been out of production for many years and I was somewhat surprised to find that a replacement was available at all.
I completely agree with the posters complaining about the knowledge level of the store personnel, but what can you realistically expect from a general store operation. If you want specialized knowledge, you probably have to go to a speciality store. Giving credit where it's due, at least Sears doesn't claim that it's staff are "experts" - like a certain large orange box chain of stores. - lol
"Do you think that there are any costs involved in stocking parts for twelve year old appliances?"
absolutely, unquestionably, undoubtedly. and after all that is taken into consideration, imho (having once actually owned a small manufacturing company myself) twenty-six bucks and change for this cheap little part is completely f***ing outrageous. and it's highly unlikely this unit went out of production twelve years ago because at the time it was the new, top of the line model (a wedding gift to a friend from very wealthy in-laws. he got the set in the divorce a couple years later and sold them to me). for all i know, some current models might still use this knob style.
and btw- the invoice clearly stated: $5.45 for the part itself, $20.78 for ship'g & handling, for a grand total of $26.23. the part was mailed, USPS, in a polyethylene bag (not even tyvek or a box), postage was less than a dollar. not a bad markup considering the knob in question cost maybe, maybe, 60 cents oem, but i seriously doubt it was even that much. also, i had already paid a visit to the local sears store about 25 miles away, but was told- at 4:45PM- that their parts and service dept shuts down at 4:00 (even though the rest of the place is open until 9). gee, how convenient. aaaaand to pi$$ me off even further, when i called to express my displeasure over the ridiculous price, they said i could return it but they would only refund the $5.45. i don't expect them to lose money on service, but what they risk in loss of goodwill hardly makes up for ramming it to the customer.
if you can't compete on price, you damn well better be able to make it up on the quality of service. sears sucks on both counts- not as cheap as walmart or the electronics and appliance superstores, but their service is every bit as bad, if not worse. unless they're literally giving something away, it will be quite awhile before i shop there again.
m
Tony,
I can't imagine jumping through those kinds of hoops to give my money to someone so obviously undeserving of it.
I once heard insanity described as doing the same thing over and over again - and expecting different results. You might want to "Google" using the key word masochist to see if there are clubs or support groups for people with your affliction, Hah, hah.
Good luck,
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
For all to read , My trouble with sears was back in 1985 and I have never bought a thing from them since. Some how a charge of $170.00 was charged on my Sears credit card in a store I had never been in or have never ever been in Gainsville FL. At the time I was stationed in Pensacola Fl. I went round and round with sears for about a year and asked the to prove to me what was purchased, and they never did. So the choked on $170. dollar amount, I never ended up paying them.
Their are to many other stores in this country that can keep records right.
This is really too bad. I usually never purchase from Sears (can you say mark up) and instead use Amazon for the majority of my machine tool purchases.
It just so happens I was at Sears the other day looking for something totaly unrelated to tools when I walked through the tool section. I found the PC Mag Circ Saw on sale for 80 bucks (normally $130 at HD and Sears). I bought it on the spot, even got the two year replacement plan for another $12.
Sorry you had such a bad experience, but thankyou for sharing (warning) with us.
Jim
Coventry Woodworking
My bad customer service experience with Sears tools was 16 years ago. I wrote a letter describing my problem, and mailed it to Sears. In the letter I explained that I was 19 years old, and I had invested a significant portion of my lawn mowing and fast food income in woodworking tools, including several from Sears. Based on my experience, I vowed to never purchase or recommend another Craftsman tool...ever. I never received a response, and I have never broken my promise.
I now own a complete set of woodworking tools worth thousands of dollars. To borrow the Mastercard theme...
3HP Delta shaper...$1300
Powermatic Tablesaw...$800
Total spent at Sears...$0
Total recommendations for Sears...0
...enjoying the tool buying process and good customer service...PRICELESS
Craig
Tony,
Congrats on your new saw. I've owned a Grizzly for over a year and love it. I convinced several of my friends to buy one too.
I'm sorry to hear about your experience with Sears. I remember in my youth working for Macy's and misleading a customer. My manager spoke to me about it and said something that I will never forget. "It's not just one customer we lose but an entire family." Now with the larger community of forums they have potentially lost millions in sales.
I haven't bought anything from Sears for ten plus years. I've watched their products decline over a number of years. It's really sad. I have a number of Craftsman tools from the 1940's that are still running like they were new.
Enjoy your new saw.
Len
HOLY GEEZOO! Damn, I got all worked up just reading your message, good lord can I ever relate to your experience. Personal pride in doing ones work is in the crapper. I really do hope your experience with Grizzly is better, though it can only go up. eh. This story is also a very good example of how a bad retail transaction spreads exponentially very quickly, as each and every one of us that has replied to your post is likely to tell a friend or the like about your story, and so it goes how a bad reputation is born.
I do hope you put all of your energy towards Sears, I mean, don't let this testimonial die. Somehow, foward this whole post to some that cares at Sears. Sooner or later up the food chain you are bound to find him/her. The "S#*%" needs to hit the fan, when the regional rep's boss see's this post, he needs to sweat too.
Sounds like there are too many employees that are comfortable with the status quo, eh? Good luck my friend and I hope you enjoy your new saw.
A good freind of mine had a temporary job at Sears a while back selling tools. He claimed their tool business was strong and he made good money on the commissions. He described the core of his customers, old fellows who were wood-working hobbists that would only buy Sears tools. Some of them lived miles away (some in the next state), way out in the country and they would drive in on Saturdays to dream about the latest "Sears Best" tool. Sometimes his customers would need to really "know" something about a tool or technique so he would call me and I would talk them through it (is that customer service or what?). I sure don't understand it but glad those old fellows are having fun.
Tony
I had a problem with customer service on a Stove I bought. What happened is a part to fix it was on order for 3 weeks. so I had no stove, when it came in it was a wrong part. I did not want to wait to get a new part. The service person who came out to my house said he would call his boss. I was po'ed and call for the part. it was in a California dc and would take a week to get. so I called the customer service number and was treated rudely by the customer service personal. I asked what will you do to keep me as a customer, and I was told nothing. all I wanted was for them to overnight the part to Cleveland.
I WAS a stockholder in the company at thus felt that I should tell my employee that I had an issue. So I went on the web site and got the corporate phone number. I called and asked for the Office of the president. I was put though to an assistant. I told my story to this person, in a half hour I received a call by the Vice President of Service. The part was there the next day. The part was given to me for free. I did have to pay for the first service call.
In the end, you need to keep records of poor service and let the company know. If you have a issue that is not taken care of. for example fraud of taking money for an item, giving a delivery date and not fulfilling the promise, you need to let an executive know. As a Former retail corporate manager, calling and asking for the Office of the President is the way to go.
David
http://WWW.darbynwoods.com
tony,
My dealings with Sears is as follows;
I go to thrift stores, garage sales etc. and buy any Craftsman handtools (only) I can find. I then take them to the nearest store and trade them for brand new ones. It's my way of making up for the several POS corded tools I bought from them when I was young and dumb. No more from Sears if it's got a cord!
Regards,
Mack
"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Mack, as long as you're being unethical and dishonest, why don't you just save yourself the trouble of looking through all those garage sales and just go over to Sears and shoplift the tools you want. That'll get 'em!
Mack -----
There is a wonderful sense of civility in these forums, but I could not let your post pass by without saying I think the practice you describe is unethical and despicable.
How is this any different than the guy who steals from a company because he thinks he is underpaid?
There are always people who misuse and abuse a system, but that doesn't mean the rest of us have watch from afar with what may seem like the tacit approval of our silence.
I would hope rich and myself are not alone in being appalled by your actions and attitudes about returning these Sears products.
And people wonder why Sears is expensive.
Mack,
I'll join the others who condemn your obvious dishonesty. Your assertion that you are "evening the score" is nothing more than a transparent attempt to rationalize that which is patently wrong.
Guess who pays for your behavior.
Alan
I have only one notable customer service story involving Sears, but it's worth repeating.
We went to buy a water softener (not technically a tool, I know). There was only one of the model we wanted remaining in stock. The clerk made a mistake in ringing up the sale, and had to void it and start over. Because the softener had already been reserved for us during the original transaction, it was no longer "in stock" when he tried the do-over. The warehouse computer must've been running slowly.
To make up for our inconvenience, he sold us the next more expensive model for the price of the one we "bought" the first time around. Then he refunded our delivery fee for our trouble.
I'd have been satisfied to simply wait a few minutes until the warehouse computer caught up with what was going on.
For what it's worth.
This is nothing less than stealing.
I'm certainly not an ethicist, but there does seem to be some ambiguity about the craftsman guaranty.
As I understand it, craftsman guarantees the tools for life; is this warranty tranferable? If I have a bunch of old craftsman tools I no longer want, is it "stealing" for me to turn them all in for new, then sell them at a yard sale for 75% of the retail price? Maybe I could donate them to charity and claim the full retail value as a tax deduction?
The warranty is "no questions asked", isn't it? I have heard of folks using large screwdrivers as trailer hitches (for example), then returning the bent and twisted remains for a new screw driver. Obviously the tool had been grossly misused, but it was replaced without complaint. Is that stealing?
I am no fan of Sears, but they certainly understand the implications of their lifetime warranty. If this were an issue for them, I would think they would make clear whether or not the warranty is transferable.
While I'm not sure I would embrace the yard sale practice, I don't think it's indefensible, either.
Sears came up with their warranty when people's ethics were probably a little less challenged. It's relatively unlikely that people will save sales receipts for years to prove ownership if Sears decided that the warranty was not transferrable.
I think they assumed that dishonest people are a relatively small percentage of the population and that the kind of people who would systematically screw them over, ala the post above, are few and far between.
I imagine the assumption was that an honest user might occassionally break a wrench or screwdriver and come in for a new one. I doubt they ever imagined some cretin spending his time scouring yard sales for tools then driving around from store to store trading them in.
If that's all I had to do with my time I'd put a gun under my chin.
I'm getting a mental picture of a guy with intractable body odor, a 1970 F-150, and not very many teeth.
Edited 6/28/2004 12:06 pm ET by cstanford
I don't really feel I need to justify my actions to anyone as I gave up the guilt thing shortly after Catholic grade school; however:
Between running two small businesses and taking care of our residence plus a couple of rental properties, I manage to get to three or four garage/estate sales every year. That's where I make "the big score"!!
I have possibly thousands of individual Craftsman handtools in several different locations around Seattle and Oak Harbor. Some I've bought retail, some at sales and some I got when my dad died about 25 years ago.
Now just so I have my bearings right and know exactly where the "high ground" is; which of these tools may I return for new and which may I not? The ones I got from my dad cost me nothing so maybe I can't return those! The ones I got at the sales I paid for but not retail so ----?? If I find a tool on the road or on a job site and it's broken can I return that one??
All Craftsman hand tools are returnable when broken. How does it raise Sears prices if I return them instead of the original/second/subsequent owner?
I have never sold a tool, at this point in my life I'm only acquiring more. If at some point later on I decide to downsize, may I only sell the tools for which I paid---only paid retail. I guess at some point I may show a profit on my "stealing" from Sears as a slightly used #2 phillips sd might bring a dollar where the one I bought derilect only cost me a quarter.
On a broader scale; if you walk by a news stand and read the headlines on a paper without buying a paper, do you consider it stealing? I don't, do it every time I go in the supermarket. Same thing with tool reviews in the ROTM WW mags. Check them out and put the mag back on the shelf
Now for particulars:
To the guy that recommends I shoplift, that could land me in jail and I much prefer my present accomodations!
Charles:
Your mental picture of me is as dillusional as your lofty opinion of yourself!
I have two college degrees and all my teeth. I do have a 1976 Dodge 3/4 ton truck (restored) among the nine vehicles I own, insure and operate.
I have short hair and I take a shower every day (well almost)! I shave once and brush my teeth twice every day.
I wear shoes, even in the summer! With socks!
I don't aspire or claim to be any one's role model nor do I insist that everything I do is correct or moral. I don't necessarily even recommend that anyone do as I do.
Nothing personal Charles, but that "gun under the chin" thing, be my guest!!!
To all you other folks that made some assumptions or just saw fit to condemn, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and KMAAHNITTS!
Regards,
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
In your original post, you said "I go to thrift stores, garage sales etc. and buy any Craftsman handtools (only) I can find. I then take them to the nearest store and trade them for brand new ones. It's my way of making up for the several POS corded tools I bought from them when I was young and dumb."
I am no lawyer, but the practice you describe sounds a lot like a deliberate intent to defraud.
At a minimum, you are pushing the outer edge of the ethics envelop. I think you're getting these strong reactions because this is the kind of practice that needlessly drives up prices, and this is the kind of abuse that could in the end cause Sears to back away from their support of an admirable warranty policy.
What is most sad, however, is that you choose to trumpet this despicable practice in these forums, and then defend it. None of us can change the world in any cosmic sense, but we each as individuals, can conduct our affairs with dignity, honesty, and an abiding sense of ethical values.
And when we see someone violating these basic precepts, we get to say so. If I have offended you, I am not sorry I did so.
Well I feel exactly as you do! If I offended any one, I'm not sorry either."WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Mack, I pretty much weigh in with the others on your lack of ethics in this instance. Please tell us that, having abandoned the Faith, that this is your only major failing, and not just the tip of an iceberg of unspeakable acts and unnatural practices which are common to your disturbing lack of commercial morality.
rob,
Actually my commercial morality isn't all that bad. Our business has been on the BBB Honor Role eight years running.
I guess my point is sorta like this: If I check out a girls butt at Home Depot that's ---well; bad behavior. If I drive to Home Depot for the express purpose of sitting in the parking lot and watching butts then that's grounds for therapy. I don't do that.
Same is true with the Sears stuff. I think maybe I worded my first post a bit smuggly and some folks made some MAJOR assumptions; or not, I really couldn't care less. Point is, I don't go to sales for the express purpose of finding Craftsman tools but when I do find them and they're cheap, I buy them and if they're mangled, (which kinda goes along with cheap) I return them for new ones. Any owner along the line could have done the same thing anywhere along the line so I really don't see where I'm gonna face fire and brimstone (for this any way). If I thought I could make 6-7 grand a month reselling them it might be worth while but as it is; I don't think I'll fold up either of our businesses in favor of "Sears Theft" just yet.
Whatever, I'm glad someone has at least a small sense of humor about this as opposed to the folks that will assume the worst possible motives and draw for themselves weird "mental images" (perhaps resembling close relatives).
Regards,
Mack
Edit: I must admit, I made a grave error in judgement by confessing to my most mortal of sins on line!
"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Edited 6/28/2004 11:53 pm ET by Mack
Mack,
It may not be right to make judgments regarding the character of people –- based on their comments in an anonymous Internet forum.
You may well be a fine fellow, but you have done just about everything you can to paint yourself otherwise in this thread.
I am dismayed that you draw an analogy between watching women at HD (where no one gets hurt), and your practice of buying up old Sears tools to take advantage of their warranty policy.
Most businesses set up an allowance for bad debt. What you describe is, to me, more akin to the fellow who opens an account, and deliberately sets about to run up charges that he has no intention of paying.
No doubt Sears has somebody somewhere whose job is figuring out the costs of their warranty policy, which is certainly factored into their tool prices. But the practice you first described, and then somewhat retracted, may not be illegal, but it does add to their costs, and can certainly be described as abusive and unethical. And I just can't see that the practice is somehow justified, given your past grievance with the poor quality of their power tools.
The world is often a nasty place, and few of us can expect to change it. About all we can do is endeavor to live our own lives with a sense of integrity and honor. In the end, that comes down to a lot of little things –- like abusing the Sears return policy.
Here is a 'gentleman' who claims what.. two college degrees.... busy running businesses... and on an on, and yet still has time to drive around on weekends going to yard sales looking for junk to take back to Sears for exchange.
This person should consider reading a book on the weekend, taking a class, going to an art exhibit, playing golf or doing something other than exacting revenge on Sears for selling lousy power tools.
What an incredible, stupendous, moron this guy appears to be.
Edited 6/29/2004 11:12 am ET by BossCrunk
The stuff is warrantied for ever...
Does it matter who brings in the tools for warranty...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
Is Home Depot really a good place to look at girls' butts? I've always favored museums and college campuses, but there are always parking problems in those locations. Thanks for the tip. Rob
Rob,
My pleasure!
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
I think this discussion has taken a funny turn.
Hello...My name is "el papa"...and I too am a Craftaman warranty thief...HELLO EL PAPA!
Whenever I take a load of scrap steel to the county transfer station there is always a handful of rusty tools laying in there with all the broken bikes and wheel-barrows. I always stop to look at them and -YEP!!!- 9 times out of 10 they are Craftsman tools. So I pick 'em up and take them to Sears for new ones, am I a creep or what? I love a Craftsman #2 cabinet screw-driver (with the keystone shaped head), nothing fits my hand as well. No problem, I got a big pile of them...all free. I also have the ability to spot these laying on the side of the road 1/4 of a mile away. I can't stop, what do I do?
el papa,
Maybe someone should start a 12 step program for us!!! LOL Maybe I'll see ya at a "meeting" someday!! LLLL
Regards,
Mack "WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
___________________________
Quote:
Mack, I pretty much weigh in with the others on your lack of ethics in this instance. Please tell us that, having abandoned the Faith, that this is your only major failing, and not just the tip of an iceberg of unspeakable acts and unnatural practices which are common to your disturbing lack of commercial morality.
___________________________
Rob,
You have a excellent sence of humor.
Hahahahahahahahhaa
Mack,
I've been lurking around for a while and have enjoyed the lively discussions, (well, some of them. lol)
After reading the last several posts, and the berating you have received, I was compelled to reply. I have purchased many craftsman hand tools from garage sales and the like. If the tool is in ok shape, I use it until it needs replacing. If it's in bad shape, off to Sears I go.
I do not see any ethical or moral problem with this practice. The lifetime warranty is for the tool, not the owner. Sears had factored into the original sales price the likely number of returns of a particular tool. I addition, this gets you into the store, where they hope you buy something else.
Back in college (Mechanical Engineering), I heard that one of the justifications for the lifetime warranty is that the quality control aspect of manufacturing can be drastically reduced, thus saving the manufacturer and Sears a lot of money. I cannot verify that however.
BTW, I bath/shave daily as well, have all my teeth etc. ..........
IMHO, we are playing by the rules they set-up. If Sears does not like the results, change the rules. Then we can go buy snap-on hand tools, which are higher quality and have a lifetime warranty as well.
Happy Hunting
Edited 6/29/2004 12:10 am ET by Pictureman
Pictureman,
Are you aware that if Sears truly meant to warrant their tools "for the life of the tool" that the warranty would expire when the tool wore out or broke? That would end the "life" of that tool. Then it would obviously be wrong to return it for a new one.
Perhaps what you meant was that Sears warrants the tools for the life of the person that owns them, and for all the people that will ever own them. But that would mean Sears warrants the tools until the end of time--assuming the tools belonged to someone.
What do you think Sears meant to accomplish with their warranty?
What is obvious to me, and obvious to all the others, is that Sears purpose is to ease the mind of the original tool buyers that the tool will not break or wear out with ordinary use. Sears certainly did not mean their policy to provide garage sale hawks with new tools until the end of the universe. Just as certainly Sears did not mean their policy to enable people to "even the score" for other products the buyer didn't like.
Sears' policy, of course, doesn't say this, and Sears may have many reasons the warranty reads as it does: wording a warranty to include only the purpose above would be extremely difficult, and would require buyers to save receipts for many years--just in case--and so on. Their advertising certainly has more punch with the simple wording.
I'm also sure Sears has taken into account that some small numbers of people will abuse their policy, just as they take into account that some number of people will shoplift. Sears simply raises prices so the honest will pay for the dishonesty of others.
But the issue being discussed here is not Sears' policy, or their reasons for it. The issue here is the behavior of individuals like Mack. The issue is if doing what Mack does is honest or not. You and he have already heard the judgment of your peers on this site.
You and he may rationalize and attempt to justify all you wish. People who are always ready to exploit "loopholes" to gain unfairly are often very good at convincing themselves that their behavior is not wrong. Rationalizing dishonesty is often part and parcel of being dishonest in the first place.*
Go ahead and rationalize. Perhaps you and Mack can convince yourselves not to bother with the garage sales. After all, if there is a Craftsman tool out there anywhere that could honestly be returned to Sears, but will not be.... It's a very small step.
Alan
*In an assigned appeals case my client assured me that he had committed no wrong. He burgled an apartment because it was his before he went to prison, and he had hidden twenty thousand dollars (from another criminal endeavor) in a wall. When he broke in he found the money was gone, so he took the TV, stereo and whatever else to begin to make up for it. Hmmm. That sounds a little familiar...
Edited 6/29/2004 6:34 pm ET by Alan
Edited 6/29/2004 6:48 pm ET by Alan
The Sears warranty is better than Snap-on or mack tools. Sears exchange for a new tool, Snap-on change the blade only on screw drivers!!
Alan, My thoughts exactly, now that I've read yours. Well said.
Ian
What a joke.
This sounds like a big bunch of crap. A total fabrication.
Charles,
In the book length list of things I give ARA about, what you think of me and what you believe don't show up even as a foot note!
Regards,
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
I think Alan's post a few posts above this one pretty much says it all.
However, I'm willing to up the ante a little. Why don't you tell us the name and location of the businesses you own that have the stellar BBB rating you referred to in one of your other posts?
Charles,
I guess I can't have anything good going on in my life because I did/said something you don't care for and therefore you think I must be a total failure and of course vastly inferior to (guess who) you. The length and depth of your ego never ceases to amaze me!
As I've said before I really don't give a hoot what you (or anyone else for that matter) thinks or believes about me, and I won't be goaded into anything, especially subjecting my interests to any scrutiny of yours!! I have absolutely nothing to gain!!
I know what I am, what I have and what I'm doing. I have nothing to prove to any one; least of all you! I was going to put you on "ignore" but if I can get you upset by simply typing a few lines every day I guess I should. It will direct your venom in a known and harmless direction (remember; I don't care).
Regards,
Mack "WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
I figured as much.
There was something else I was wondering about. Do you specifically seek out broken Craftsman hand tools and return them, or do you buy less than perfect looking tools and CLAIM they don't work anymore when in fact they function just fine?
Charles,
I read your note #56. The merits of the arguments apart, I want you to know that that is the absolutely funniest thing I have seen in a long time.
I hold you personally responsible for the stitch I got from laughing so hard.
Frank
I'm about to hit stride.
Charles,
Frankly, I'm a bit disappointed in your "stride"! Nothing about suicide; no bizarre "mental images"! Seems to me you're slipping just a wee bit!
Com'mon Charles; with your great powers of negativity, surely you can come up with something more degrading than "figured as much"!!
In answer to your question, I pretty much play it tool by tool. If it looks bent or twisted or if it seems like failure is imminent or if I think it might present a possible safety risk then I turn it in before use. If it looks okay then I use it until it no longer functions as I expect it to and then turn it in.
Hope this helps! LOL
Have a nice evening Charles!
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Mack, unless you're going to completely retract your origonal post as incorrect, what you're doing is a little less than ethical. I don't know if you have kids or not, but if you do or did, would teach them you're garage sale strategy?
rich,
I wouldn't go out of my way to "teach" it to them but I certainly wouldn't hide it from them either.
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Mack, if I've made Frank laugh that's good enough me for me.
Sears rocks.
Hey Mack, I was driving from Philadelphia to Boston and back yesterday so among the many other things I was thinking of I considered this whole dilemna. My first reaction to your post was like everyone else: that what you were doing was wrong. But I couldn't quite figure out how. So before I posted tonight I went over to the Sears website to see if they have the warranty posted. They don't (why?) but they do have this to say about the warranty (this is cut and pasted from the website. See
http://www.sears.com/sr/craftsman/whyCraftsman/cr_wc_qualityproducts.jsp?vertical=SEARS
Did you know that the first Craftsman hand tool we sold back in 1927 is still under warranty today? So are all the hand tools we've sold since. That's what is known as having confidence in our quality. As the Craftsman Unlimited Hand Tool Warranty clearly states... If any Craftsman guaranteed forever hand tool fails to provide complete satisfaction, return it for free repair or replacement. Period.
Now I would like all of you who took a swipe at Mack to read that carefully, and note what is NOT mentioned: whether the warranty only applies to the original purchaser. Clearly it doesn't. There's no asterisk. There's no small print. There's no longer, more nuanced version of the warranty listed on the website. So why would Sears do this? Beyond the obvious reason that it provides ease of mind to purchasers, it probably also allows them to charge a little more for the tool than they would otherwise - after all, a guarantee that good, which is honored with question, is actually worth some amount of cash. Theoretically, any Crafstman tool would be resold (at yard sales or auctions) for a little more than a comparable tool without guarantee. So Mack is not doing anything unethical, he's merely taking advantage of a bargain at a yard sale. He's willing to put the time into going to Sears and exchanging these tools, so good on him. If the seller at the yard sale didn't charge a little more for a tool that can be exchanged for a new one, that's not Mack's fault.
Now to go off topic: I would like all of the guys who were calling me an evil liberal in the Woodworker's Cafe to note that the above analysis is straight out Adam Smith capitalism at its best. You guys really should be careful about painting with the broad brush.
Paul Downs
pauldowns,
I appreciate the ?? vote of no fault ?? thanks. I suspect that at least one person who took a "swipe" did so not so much because he felt there was a grave wrong done but because he saw a chance to feel superior and take personal shots at me at the same time; totally irresistible.
There have been a couple of posters that agree with my philosophy that the tools are "returnable" so what does it matter who returns them. In addition, no one responded to my question about which of the ???(lots) of individual Craftsman tools that I own could be "ethically" returned.
Regards,
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
It's simple...if you own a hand tool, use it and it breaks, return it for a new one. This is what the warranty is set up for. If you go looking at garage sales for tools to buy for the express purpose of turning them in for brand new ones, this is unethical.
Anyway, you're obviously sticking to your guns and feel that there is nothing wrong with what you're doing. I'm just glad that most of the people here don't feel the same way you do, or Sears might be forced to discontinue this policy.
Rich,
You wrote:"It's simple...if you own a hand tool, use it and it breaks, return it for a new one. This is what the warranty is set up for."
Yes, I agree. However, there is another aspect to this warranty that needs to be considered. Sears spends millions trying to get people to come into their stores. Through advertising and discounts/sales they know the more foot traffic the more dollars. The cost of the individual tools that they replace is so insignificant....and a percentage of that cost is absorbed by taxpayers.(deducted from profits as an expense). So maybe Mack going out there and selling all those tools for Sears and forming new bonds between Sears and new customers is not such a bad thing from Sears point of view...and let's not forget the sympathy they are getting from us ....
Then there is Mack, sitting there all day long selling brand new shiny Craftsman tools at the tag sales...for which he has invested a lot of money and effort. I walk up and think..Hmmm, craftsman tools...brand new...they must be illegal knock-offs. Mack assures me they are not knock-offs...I think some kind of scam is going on here...and do I really want to be part of it...do I want Mack to know I'm willing to be part of it...I think not.
One take away that Mack should get from this thread is that ethics are important to us. Not because the Nuns said so but because we are Dads and Husbands and are responsible for establishing the values for our children.....and don't want to be nagged by our wives for an ethical slip (and you know they are always watching)....lol
Edited 7/2/2004 7:13 am ET by BG
Edited 7/2/2004 7:18 am ET by BG
"sitting there all day long, selling ------".
I think you have me confused with a different Mack. I have never sold a single tool in my life and stated that in a previous post. I don't have time to have sales; only to stop by them once in a great while.
Regards,
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
I'm Ed from Mississippi and I approved the following message:
When elected, I will issue a blanket amnesty for anyone who has committed such activities as to cause Sears to cease and desist from the retailing of woodworking tools. Anyone causing this company to cease and desist from retailing power tools will receive a reward bounty.
As one final measure against tool mediocrity - selling those ubiquitous blister-packs of crappy Chinese made tools at those flea markets frequented by galoots on rust-hunting expeditions will be considered an imprisonable offense. Saying, "I have tools," when what you have is those Chinese tools and not real tools, will result in immediate arrest.
By the way, Sears is one of the only retailers that compensates employees who are in the military reserves if they are called up for service. Sears pays the differnece between their military pay and their salalry for up to 24 monthes. So for all of you who want to spread the word about what a terrible company Sears is, and scoure the earth for old tools to exchange for new ones, just remember this. The good companies like Sears that take care of their people and raise the standard of living in this country are being replaced by the Wal-Marts of the the world that treat their employees like dogs.
Mack, one thing I learned from reading all these posts: You have thicker skin and a better sense of humor than just about anybody else on the board! I compliment your gentlemanly restraint.
Sam
P & T,
Thanks for the kind words! You must have missed my KMAAHNITTS post. LOL
Regards,
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
By the way, Sears is one of the only retailers that compensates employees who are in the military reserves if they are called up for service. Sears pays the differnece between their military pay and their salalry for up to 24 monthes. So for all of you who want to spread the word about what a terrible company Sears is, and scoure the earth for old tools to exchange for new ones, just remember this. The good companies like Sears that take care of their people and raise the standard of living in this country are being replaced by the Wal-Marts of the the world that treat their employees like dogs.
Mack, Ed?
My experience with Sears has been nothing but positive. They sales staff have always been cheerful and helpful. Their warranty is the best in the business.
That being said, my Dad used to tell me "Don't buy anything from Sears that has over 2 moving parts." In other words, clothes, hand tools and the like, but nothing too complicated. I agree with that concept and the things that had over 2 moving parts I covered with a service contract. They have always responded quite quickly and satisfactorly on the service contracts as well.
As far as sweeping garage sales for defective Craftsman tools, fine and dandy. But first you have to find one that is broken. Good luck. Their sockets and handtools are some of the best in the business. I doubt you'll find enough to warrant the effort.
Let us know how you do.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Unfortunately, Boris, he doesn't need to find one that is broken - he finds ones that "seems like failure is imminent". It is also worth adding that this was only brought forth upon prodding - his initial post was:
"I go to thrift stores, garage sales etc. and buy any Craftsman handtools (only) I can find. I then take them to the nearest store and trade them for brand new ones."
Note that he has mentioned nothing about them being broken or about to break...
Mack - I sure don't need to get in the peeing contest you and Charles got in, but I will give you all my 2 cents anyway (any more than that and I might go mentally bankrupt :)
I agree with the interpretation of the warranty wording - it clearly indicates that the warranty is unconditional and forever. Thus, from a LEGAL standpoint, you are covered.
Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately, I suppose) this is not a legal argument, but rather a moral one.
The question, in my opinion anyway, that is yet to be answered, but upon which this argument balances, is what did Sears INTEND with that warranty. I think the majority of folks here would indicate that the intent of the policy was NOT to warrant tools forever regardless of owner, but rather to instill confidence in the consumers of their products that they would not be left out in the cold.
I also think a previous post was right on: This conversation would be unthinkable at the time the policy was written. Why? Because the people of the time actually had morals and values, and didn't believe they were entitled to anything - they felt you EARNED your way through life. Is that a generalization? Absolutely, but a pretty accurate one.
Here's the way i handle questions like this: If it were YOUR company, would you want people doing this to YOU? I sure wouldn't, because it clearly wasn't the intent.
As for whichever of you thought you would be smart with the "financial argument", you neglected to take it to the logical extreme when thinking it through.
At some point, had Sears actually intended the policy to be used this way, there would be NO demand for new tools other than warranty (since everyone would already have one, and they would all be warranted forever). Does that really strike ANYONE here as a reasonable business model?
And with that, I hereby open myself up to any and all flames...
d-
Edited 7/6/2004 3:48 pm ET by DM_Woodworking
I'll let other people make their own ethics. I for one would never return a tool that wasn't broken.
I dealt with a return to Lie Nelson today, and it was just a minor part. The Customer Service folks were so impressed with my honestly and the fact that I was willing to buy another part that wasn't damaged, they threw it in for free.
I'm a tad older than most of you guys and was a bit of a stoner in my day. We used to call this "Karma" and it is just bad Karma to take advantage of businesses. It forces them to ruin it for everyone.
I don't think he is morally bankrupt, but thats just not my style.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
I wouldn't return a tool that would function as designed either and I really hope that this "Sears" thing I do is the worst thing I ever do for my Karma. If it is, I'm in tall cotton!! (But that would be presumptuous wouldn't it)
Regards,
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
You won't get any "flames" from me, your post was basically a statement of your beliefs and not a personal attack.
In response, there were several things I didn't (should have) mention in my first post.
1. How often I do this (not very often at all as I don't get the time)
2. The fact that I do not sell tools
3. My "broken" criteria, (still apparently unclear) Imminent failure would be a screw driver that has been ground into ?? a "special" tool, an adjustable wrench with jaws spread; something of that nature. Not technically broken but certainly not expected to function as designed. Those would go back without attempting to use.
I know I may be opening up the whole can of worms again by responding to your post but I feel that Sears is NOT a magnanimous old grandfather being kind and generous. They made their guarantee in a calculated effort to SELL MORE TOOLS. Each one is so guaranteed so what does it matter who returns it.
I have my ethics and understand the need for a work ethic. I have worked all my life and filed my first income tax return at age 14. I was not one of the kids who got a car for his birthday! I'm grateful for the fact that I had to earn what I got. It taught me not to expect to be given anything. When I give my word to someone/something, I do it even if it hurts me in some way. We don't rip people off in our business dealings and will finish a job we bid even if we loose money. I don't expect any "credit" for these things, it's just what we do and expect others to do. When others don't do what we expect, we just live with it and don't try to convince them they should; it doesn't work! I did not give my word to Sears that I would not take them up on their tool guarantee.
I'm having a bit of trouble understanding how I've become the toothless, stinking, lying, anti-christ, ner'do well that's bent on the destruction of all that is good and holy as well as the world economy and all over a smart-###$$ comment about returning tools to Sears. The scenarios that some folks have conjured up are quite comical. One guy has me driving around to garage sales all weekend. Another has me sitting all day selling tools. Someone else has me breaking tools with a vice and a hammer. Still another would have me returning a tool because of a scuff mark (wait a minute maybe that was one of the aforementioned)! I can hardly wait to read what's next!! Some of these individuals should start careers as authors--(or go back on their medication) as their imaginations are outstanding! Such powers of deduction! What psychic ability! A phenomenon of interpolation! Read one thing, assume six!
Then again, it doesn't bother me too much; just sort of curious 'ya know what I mean.
Hey, didn't mean to get long winded but thanks for getting me going again; this was the most fun I've had on a Tuesday in a week or two! I really need to get out to a few more garage sales!!LLLLLLLLLLLOL!!!! (Just kidding, I really do have other stuff to do).
Warm Regards,
Mack "WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Isn't amazing how this thread started from a guy who got poor customer service, and has transformed into a "Mack attack"? Personally, I would return a Craftsman tool, or any other brand, that was broken, even if I was not the original buyer. I also have no problem returning cans and bottles for the deposit money (I live in Michigan), even if I did not purchase that beverage and pay the deposit. I even stoop so low as to pick a quarter up off of the sidewalk and stick it in my pocket.
I wonder how many of your critics have bought a $5.00 table at a yard sale, refinished it, and sold it for much more. Maybe they cut a royalty check to the original buyer. Or not.
As stated in an earlier message, you are taking all of this in stride and with humor. After a hundred and some posts, I might be inclined to send a big **** you to everyone.
"Mack attack"! I'm lovin' it! LOL
I think a hundred posts is a bit much, but then again quite a few of those are mine so I can't say too much.
Actually I think it's pretty wild that this has gone on so long! I haven't had this much attention since I was two! As we used to say in the Navy, "a letter of reprimand is better than no mail at all"!
Regards,
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Mack is a role model. I want my son to grow up to be just like him. Don't you? Doesn't everybody else here agree?
BossCrunk,
I agree.
I'm happy for Mack that he learned not to expect to be given anything--except by Sears of course. I guess he forgot to add that last part.
Alan
Never claimed or wanted to be anyone's role model; I'll leave that responsibility to you guys. I would say I hope your son grows up just like you but ---that wouldn't be very nice at all! Instead, I hope he grows up straight and tall and can look someone else in the eye and say "I don't care what you think or say; I have only myself to answer to".
The guy in the mirror Boss, that's who the final judge should be! Try looking in yours and repeating the phrase "in my humble opinion" over and over. When you start chuckling at yourself the exercise is over.
Regards,
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
How profound.
Thank you! Better profound than profane!
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Thank you! Better profound than profane!
Odd statement given your tagline and your frequent use of abbreviations for profane sayings. Vous n'êtes pas très futé êtes vous ?
Edited 7/8/2004 2:36 pm ET by BossCrunk
I vote this the most entertaining discussion since the "Flattening Workbenches and other Hoary Old Chestnuts," thread I started several years ago.
Sadly, that enlightening discussion died with the old Taunton WebX format and can't be resurrected,------- unless someone knows differently. Slainte.RJFurniture
Yeah, it's been fun but I sort of sense the passion waning, don't you?
Regards,
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Not so odd, I'm trying to get rid of the profanity habit, unfortunately picked up in the Navy so, again, thank you; better profound than profane!
I'm sorry, I only speak/read a tiny bit of Spanish and absolutely no (?) French. English I barely muddle along with as well.
"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Mack, you don't seem to be such a bad guy. You ought to consider easing up on Sears, especially after somebody pointed out how well they treat reservists. Sure, the warranty is worded liberally and seems to be open ended. They do appear to have warranted their tools in perpetuity. That doesn't mean you should pile on. Hey, if a tool breaks while you're using it by all means take it back. Other than that, just let it go.
Boss,
I really don't think the handfull of tools, broken, mangled or disfunctional that I return to Sears in any given year is hurting them a bit. However just to show you that you're absolutely correct (I'm not such a bad guy), I'll stop thinking about returning those tools as any sort of revenge and just return them.
"Letting it go" is something I think we could both use a little practice at! LOL
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
But wait, there's more...
Did you ever see any of those "promotional" Craftsman screwdrivers that they used to sell for .99 each? They had solid red or orange handles and look like the real deal but aren't! I bought a few one time and the salesman said "if you can manage to break one I will replace it"...big smile. Well the tip was soft and wore out in no time, back to Sears I go only to be told..."Those are special promotional screwdrivers, the regular Craftman warranty does not apply."
Beware solid-colored handles.
BossCrunk, you summed the whole thing up very well.
No more than 2 moving parts! That's funny-- but so true!
I mainly find screw drivers but always look for adjustable wrenches. Our painters go through them faster than a can of beer on a hot day!
Regards,
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Paul,
Others in this thread have pointed this out, but you are the only one who thought to go to the trouble of actually checking out the wording of the Sears warranty.
After reading Sears’ statement, it is clear that Mack is entitled to sweep through garage sales, scoop up any damaged Sears tools, and return them for replacement.
In my posts on the matter I used the word “despicable” and the phrase “deliberate intent to defraud.”
To Mack I say: you have every right to engage in this practice, and it was wrong for me to characterize your actions with the words noted above.
I also used the word “unethical” and I have more trouble finding a way to retract that sentiment.
I really don’t want to turn this into a “Café” issue, but at any given time there are always laws, social rules/customs, or business practices that contain loopholes allowing for sometimes egregious actions that run counter to the ethical value system of many individuals. I remember the chilling research findings from the Stanley Milgram experiments from the 1960’s.
So what to do? As an individual, I realize there is virtually nothing I can do to bring about change on a cosmic level. So I say my piece, send money to groups who are fighting battles I care about – but for the most part I don’t worry about all this.
Instead, what I can do, and where I will put my effort, is in building a ethical value system that makes sense to me, and allows me to live a life as close as possible to an ideal of personal integrity. You might say it is a matter of taking care of your own business, and not worrying about how others conduct their business.
I would not do what Mack is doing, mainly because I just don’t like the smell of it. I think the practice is abusive of an admirable warranty policy, and I argue that I get to say that.
It is unfortunate that these discussions so often turn into vitriolic exchanges of insults. I am still wondering what “KMAAHNITTS” means – but whatever it is, I don’t imagine it is a very pleasant experience.
I have absolutely no problem what-so-ever with the posters similar to yours which basically stated their opinion and their ethical values. Every one is entitled to their view and has the right to air it.
I do have a problem with those that resort to personal attack, name calling, impugning personal hygene, etc.
It was to those few that KMAAHNITTS was directed!
(Kiss my ***at high noon in the town square)
Regards,
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Tony; What an adventure! I happened to be in a SEARS store about 3 or 4 weeks ago after they closed that night working with the asst. manager. He and the lady below him both were shaking their heads after the last sales person left and said that usually the first thing out of any of them that come to work anymore is 1st, When is my break? 2nd when is my lunch? and wen do I get off?
It's really sad the attitude of a lot of the American worker's of today! And the attitude of a lot of upper management of today putting the shaft to a lot of long time loyal workers.
I think after your last saw purchase long wait would have sent you else were!
Good luck with the new one.
I'm not interested in taking sides, but let me ask a hypothetical question just for the sake of discussion. Let's say I have a Craftsman wrench that I originally paid $10 for. In the course of normal repairs on my car, I break the wrench. I have another one just like it in my toolbox, so I'm in no hurry to get another one.
Five years later, I'm having a yard sale. As I am going through the garage looking for stuff to get rid of, I come across the broken wrench. It's been broken for five years, so it is obviously something I can live without. I can either put it out for sale as-is, maybe ask for a buck, or I can take it in to Sears, exchange it for a new one, and sell it for eight bucks. My time is worth something, so I just sell it as-is. The buyer then takes the broken tool and exchanges it for a new one himself.
From Sears' point of view, what's the difference? They would be exchanging a broken wrench for a new one per their warranty policy in either case, right?
So take it a step further. Say I really needed the beer money, so I exchanged the wrench myself for a new one and got my eight bucks at the yard sale. If the new owner breaks it a year later, is it ethically okay for him to take it in for an exchange? He has no idea that the particular piece of steel in his hand was already the product of an exchange, but he does know that he paid nothing to Sears to obtain it. Ethical or unethical?
This is all very interesting I suppose. However, a question has been put to Mack as to whether the tools he returns are truly broken. That question has never been answered. We all also know that a lot of Sears employees wouldn't know the difference. I personally don't think they break that often and when they do that people keep them to sell in a yard sale. Obviously, Mack would disagree. If I break a Sears hand tool I'd probably either throw it away or exchange it myself depending on the effort involved. I just don't see a lot of people hanging on to visibly broken tools so they can be sold in a yard sale. I think we all know what's going on. A scuffed, scraped but usable tool is being taken in for exchange, or bought for a buck, put in a vice, hit with a hammer, and then taken in for exchange (or something to that effect). Let's not be naiive. Mack wishes, poops, and invites kissing of his posterior at high noon. I can just see his toothless grin as he takes a swing with his three-pounder.
Regardless of the broken/not really broken 'dilemma' many of us had a gut reaction to the whole thing. I prefer to stay with my gut. Yes, the Sears return policy is liberal and open-ended. So what, clearly the intent was to replace tools that broke during use, mostly by the guy who bought the bloody things or his heirs. Maybe Sears didn't take into account the yard sale phenomenon when the guarantee was originally conceived. And that mistake in judgment accrues to the benefit of guys like Mack.
Bart, you can hypothesize all day long and come up with numerous chain-of-ownership scenarios that would give Learned Hand a headache. I'm sure Sears thought about all this probably 100+ years ago when they came up with the guarantee and erred on the side of the marketing impact it would make.
What Mack has described I found as instantly unethical. So did a lot of other people. I'm sure a light went of in others' heads and a new money-making scheme hatched. Decide for yourself.
Edited 7/5/2004 3:49 pm ET by cstanford
Charles,
Your question was answered in post 18223.80, and now you've got me smacking tools with hammers to break them.
This is your story now, you tell it any way you want!
I think by this time, even the folks that agree with you about the ethics of my "Sears" practice see you and your posts for what they are; very malicious, degrading (more to yourself than to me) and totally negative in nature.
Regards,
Mack"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
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