Replies

1. 
   Troy | Aug 28, 2006 08:26am | #1

   The smooth surface of the cast iron extentions are nice and you will find the extra capacity of the rip fence helpful at some point. I think with in ####year of purchasing the more expensive saw you will be glad you did, of course it's easy for me to spend your money:)

   troy

2. 
   Knotscott | Aug 28, 2006 12:30pm | #2

   Cast iron is undoubtedly more desirable to have, but if the difference in price deters you, go with the 22104. It shouldn't make any difference in the cut. You can add a melamine extension to the right side to replace the steel wing, then maybe you can add a left side cast iron wing sometime in the future.

   Edit:  You can always slide the rails a bit to the right for more capacity. 

    

   
   

   ---

   Edited 8/28/2006 10:15 am ET by Knotscott

1. 
   Ricks503 | Aug 28, 2006 04:47pm | #4

   And if replacing the right side table, consider adding on a router table option as well.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go        4 - get a new board and go back to step 1

1. 
   Mike&L | Aug 28, 2006 06:48pm | #5

   Regardless of how well someone else's Sears saw works, my main concern would be the spotty quality control that Sears power tools exhibit, today.  

   I recently purchased a new Sears drill press - one of their larger floor models, which was filled with what I viewed to be many desirable featurers - i.e., decent horsepower, long stroke, three-way adjustable cast-iron table, keyless chuck, etc, etc.  Plus, back in the day I bought Sears tools and liked them.

   In my new Sears top-of-the-line drill press, the shaft goes "clunk, clunk, clunk" when the press is running, the quill binds and goes "crunch, crunch, crunch" when you pull the handle to lower the drill into the work, the chuck has so much lateral movement that you can literally rattle it from side to side, the keyless chuck is enormous yet spontaneously releases the bit at random intervals, etc, etc.  and the instructions state "...don't use with sanding drums..." suggesting that the bearings are known to be . . . marginal.  So my new Sears drill press is soon to be one with Sears again.

   Yet the next one may be perfect.  The design is sound, but the quality control seems to be, shall I say, indifferent.

   This could be due to a number of factors, but I recall a study I read years ago that examined what the author called Sears predatory purchasing practices with their vendors.  At the time they were accused of literally using their vendors up, via relentless demands for ever larger price reductions - vendor to figure out how (effective quality control IS expensive in the short run).  Allegedly, once the vendor was driven to the brink or beyond, Sears "awarded" the contract to another lucky victim, er.. vendor.  Was this the truth or simply Big Company bashing?  I don't know, but it rings true when I see how effective quality in Sears power tools has deteriorated over the years. 

1. 
   dwolsten | Aug 28, 2006 07:28pm | #6

   I'm sure you'll have no trouble finding other people to agree that many or most Sears power tools are crap.But what you have to realize about Sears is that Sears doesn't make any of their power tools. They contract other companies to make them, and then they slap the "Craftsman" label on them. The effect of this is that some tools are better than others, because they're all made by different companies. Because of this, it probably isn't valid to compare the Orion-made "zipcode" saws with, for instance, the Craftsman sanders (which seem to have done quite poorly in recent magazine reviews).While I would certainly ignore Sears if I was in the market for a new ROS, if I was in the market for a ~$600-900 hybrid table saw, I would definitely give the zipcode saws a look, based on all the positive comments I've seen on the various woodworking forums I frequent. I honestly can't say I've seen a single negative comment on these saws.

1. 
   Knotscott | Aug 28, 2006 08:59pm | #7

   I think you've hit the nail on the head. Sears sells alot of average junk and also some excellent machines....some of the better ones are made by Orion. You really need to evaluate each machine on it's own merits. Odds are that the DP mentioned is made by Ryobi. The user response to the zip code saws has been overwhelmingly positive with very few reported issues considering the number that have been sold....that series is over 2 years old now, which has provided plenty of time for any chronic issues to surface. Orion's CS has also been excellent and very responsive.....these are the same folks who are launching the Steel City line of machinery. Many of the key figures are from the Delta days before Pentair bought Delta several years ago.

   Edited 8/28/2006 5:22 pm ET by Knotscott

2. 
   Mike&L | Aug 29, 2006 12:05am | #8

   That's a great insight.  Think I'll look at what Steel City is planning in the way of a drill press.

   Mike

3. 
   AB | Aug 31, 2006 02:56pm | #16

   Hi Mike, Did you torque the nut at the top of the quill to speck? I have seen dps with similar problems cured by that simple fix good luck.

4. 
   Mike&L | Aug 31, 2006 05:40pm | #17

   I didn't think of that.  You don't happen to know the spec do you?

5. 
   AB | Sep 01, 2006 12:45am | #19

   MIke ,45 ftlbs. if you don't have a torque wrench snug the nut up firmly but not a big white knuckled pull.

2. 
   MRGreer | Aug 29, 2006 01:16am | #9

   Mike,

   I firmly believe this vendor squeeze to be 100% correct.  They did this to their furniture vendor a number of years (oh let's be honest, decades) ago.  They bought a larger and larger percentage of the companies production until they had them over the proverbial barrel.  Then the squeeze began, once the company realized what was happening, it was too late to go back, they had already severed ties with their conventional furniture customers and couldn't switch production back in time to save the business.  So for a time they were the slave of Sears, then they gave up completely and went out of business.  I don't think this is much different than what Wal Mart does today, Sears doesn't have the clout they had back in the 60s and 70s.

   I too have or have had a number of Sears power tools, some very good like my drill press that's close to 25 years old and some junk.  I agree that your chances of getting a good tool from them was better back 20 years ago than it is now.  Other than the drill press which I'll stand by to the end, I'm replacing any power tools I may have that are Sears.  The 6" jointer will be the next, and I believe last thing to go, soon.  You have to be careful with Sears and some tools are made by reputable companies and other not so good.  Some examples, their professional router is a knock-off Bosch, they just changed the color of the molded handles, the beskit joiner is a DeWalt with a different handle in the front, but many of the other tools are Ryobi spin-off.  The table saw could be great, while the drill press junk, you just never know when a new tool comes out how it's going to be made.

   Edited 8/28/2006 6:24 pm ET by MRGreer

1. 
   Mike&L | Aug 29, 2006 03:28am | #10

   Yes, that's the rest of the story, Alright.  It's sad that the anti-trust laws didn't encompass predatory purchasing practices as well, especially as this was so egregious a practice that it became staple MBA school case study material.  The practice made someone their short-term goals and bonuses, but it was death to the vendor base and was one of the things that contributed (still contributes?) to Sears own internal sickness.

   I'm about as conservative and pro-business a person as you'd ever want to meet, but when I was fresh out of engineering school, I went to work for Westinghouse.  Not very long before I was hired, we were told by the corporate trainers that the Justice Department put a couple of Westinghouse executives into prison for a few months for anti-trust violations.  It so shocked the company that it reexamined all it's internal practices and so changed the culture that everyone worked very hard to act responsibly and within the guidelines of both good law and good citizenship (that old rag).  Believe it or not, but it made the company stronger, not weaker.  Our products improved, and we forged more mutually beneficial relationships with both our customers and our vendors.  It turned out that that's just good business.

   I hope that Sears finds it's way again - It was really nice to be able to trust that Craftsman logo.

2. 
   dwolsten | Aug 29, 2006 09:48pm | #11

   "Believe it or not, but it made the company stronger, not weaker. Our products improved, and we forged more mutually beneficial relationships with both our customers and our vendors. It turned out that that's just good business."That's not good business these days. Good business is screwing over your customers and employees in order to boost your stock price in the short term, then the executives cashing in their stock options and bailing out.The company, the shareholders, and the employees aren't important. Only the executives are important. This is how business works in America now.

3. 
   Mike&L | Aug 29, 2006 10:54pm | #12

   Well, I wrote you a nice long response, but deleted it!  Sorry I got us off track.

   Heck, we're talking about the enjoyable art of woodworking here.  On with the woodworking learning!

   Mike ^_ ^

4. 
   Rennie | Aug 30, 2006 08:09pm | #15

   "That's not good business these days. Good business is screwing over your customers and employees in order to boost your stock price in the short term, then the executives cashing in their stock options and bailing out.

   The company, the shareholders, and the employees aren't important. Only the executives are important. This is how business works in America now."

   I respectfully disagree. I work for one of the largest forest products businesses and I can tell you, without reservation, that in my 40 years in the workforce I have never worked for a company that was so ethical, safety conscience, considerate of its employees, or honest in its dealings with customers. I regret that your experience might be otherwise, but I can tell you first hand that it is good business and we prove it every day.Rennie

   A man is a fool if he drinks before he reaches the age of 50, and a fool if he doesn't afterward. Frank Lloyd Wright

3. 
   gmt | Aug 28, 2006 04:18pm | #3

   i went through this exact decison process a little while ago and purchased the 22104. i have not replaced the fence yet, but will shortly so the extra width did not mean anything to me. on other saws i always take off the steel extensions and surround the saw with a much larger table which includes an outfeed table (in process now), so i have no interest in the cast iron extensions either. i ordered the dust collector, however, i was on backorder for over 2 months to get it. for the money the 22104 was the best saw i looked at. george

4. 
   Germey | Aug 30, 2006 12:35am | #13

   I have the 22114 and am very happy with it. I shifted the fence to the right for about 13" left and 38" right. Am am in the process of setting up a router in the right wing. I would be really surprised if you had to buy extra dust collection items for the 22104. The description mentions "3/4 cabinet design for efficient dust collection". If the pan and port are not included, then shame on them. It works pretty well. I ran the saw several times before I got my DC set up and it was still a HUGE improvement over my old Delta Bench top. I just vacuumed out the bottom when done.
   I'm about 1/4 way through a cherry kitchen and the saw is performing beautifully.
   Jeremy

1. 
   billk400 | Aug 30, 2006 03:29am | #14

   Thanks for the feedback on my question (people can get sidetracked as evidenced above...lol). The 22104 does NOT come with dust collection, but the more I think about it I am leaning towards the 22114. You indicated you shifted the fence to the right...did you have to tap new threads in the table or wings to do it, or just use the existing holes?

   Also I am interested in what set up u are using to install a router on the right extension ...are u going to replace the CI extension or add an extension to the CI right wing? I also would like to add a router extension so any info / advice would be appreciated.

   Thanks!

1. 
   Germey | Aug 31, 2006 07:14pm | #18

   You don't need to tap new holes in the table top, but you will need some Angle iron and/or flat iron and drill that to match the existing holes. I started with angle iron (based on someone else's thread on a different discussion board)with the idea that the angle would form a platform for the extension to sit on, and the pre-formed holes would line up easily with the table top holes. The angle didn't work on the back, and if I had it to do over again, I think I would just do plain flat iron in front and back. The fence just needs some support. You could probably forego all that hassle if you put legs on the extension, but that will make mobility more complicated.
   Anyway, when you get the fence shifted, there is more than enough room for the router table (no need to replace the cast iron you paid extra for). I am using a silver melamine that I salvaged off some old desks at work. I also have some 1/2" thick acrylic plates salvaged from a previous job that I will drill for my insert plate. I may also build a small enclosure for dust collection. I am hoping to find time this weekend to finish it up. If I do, I'll post some pictures.
   Jeremy.

   Edited 9/7/2006 2:35 pm ET by Germey