Replies

1. 
   WillGeorge | Jul 04, 2005 08:00pm | #1

   I am definitely blessed by these tools, and the women that bought them for me.  (my wife) ...

   Now YOU have to think of the 'PERFECT' gift for HER!

2. 
   CharlieD | Jul 04, 2005 08:15pm | #2

   Yep, good for you (mostly for having scored that wonderful partner.) Hope you have good sharpening gear, and know-how. If you keep 'em sharp. these beauties will keep you happy.

   Charlie

   I tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
3. 
   OneofmanyBobs | Jul 05, 2005 04:12am | #3

   Keep the craftsman for heavy work.  The Veritas planes are cast iron, not steel.  Very pretty if you are very careful.  Hit a nail and they are about as tough as a wedge of cheddar cheese.  Or maybe parmesan.  I have Stanleys that I've used for 30 years.  Scuffed but still fine.  Have a Vertas that got gouged much worse in just a week.  Would not buy another one.  Cuts nice, but fragile.

1. 
   philip | Jul 05, 2005 10:12am | #4

   Bob,
   You are raining on Dereks parade-unjustifiably.
   First of all, those Veritas plnes are made from Ductile Stress relieved Cast iron-designed to take hard knocks-harder than the likes of Stanley ,Record, Craftsman which are made from Cast iron , not steel.
   No fine worker of fine woods is going to "hit nails" with even the nastiest new Stanley.... this is for Carpenters (on a bad day).
   Dangeeeit-to gouge a plane , any plane , is like using your Cobra to pull a plough.

1. 
   OneofmanyBobs | Jul 05, 2005 01:15pm | #5

   I don't agree.  Normally my planes are nowhere near a nail.  But sometimes it happens.  I had to trim a joint that was pinned with a finishing nail.  Well set deep below the surface.  or so I thought.  The Veritas now has deep gouges in the sole.  I have 50 or 100 planes.  Some I've used for decades.  Some have been used pretty rough.  None got gouged like this Veritas.  Some scratches to be sure, but not like this.  If I felt I was hitting a nail, I would have stopped.  Didn't feel anything terribly wrong.  Got gouges probably 1/64 deep.  I have bronze planes that are harder than this "ductile iron".    There are wide variations in the hardness of cast iron.  But this stuff is the softest I've ever seen and I do not like it.   Otherwise, they're nice planes.  But If I was going to buy another, it would not be a Veritas. 

1. 
   philip | Jul 05, 2005 01:34pm | #6

   hi Bob,
   I have not used my Veritas much- I just think that no cast iron of "plane grade " is going to escape an encounter with a nail. I hope that the Veritas metal is not as soft as you make out.
   I believe that the main man from Lee Valley reads all these posts-if there is no responce from him I think we should bring this subject to his attention- i.e is their cast iron "on the soft side"? Sort of like some of those Taiwanese machine table tops.....
   Could be interesting.
   Are we going to be told that the castings are now done in a far off country?

1. 
   OneofmanyBobs | Jul 05, 2005 04:49pm | #7

   Cast iron is tricky stuff.  I'm quite familiar with it as used in machine tools.  Generally too easy to make it brittle.  Pure iron is very soft.  How much carbon remains and the annealing process has a huge impact on the final product.  Cheap cast iron is often too brittle and prone to cracks and can shatter.  Poor casting technique leaves holes and embedded sand.  Poorly annealed, it is not dimensionally stable.   Ever remodel a bathroom and remove a cast iron tub?  Standard procedure is to shatter it with a sledge hammer.  Sometimes they break like glass.

   Good machine tools almost always have a softer core and special treatment to make the outside harder.  Somewhat like case hardening.   Country of origin is not too important.   I've seen good and bad quailty from everywhere.  It is entirely possible I got a bad casting or it was not heat treated properly.  Also possible that they specified a very soft alloy to eliminate the possibility of breakage and dimensional change.  I don't know which in this case, but my particular plane is just too soft for my taste.  I've also had ones that are too hard.  I have a Bailey from about 1886.  Dropped it 3 feet onto a wooden floor and it snapped clean in half.  Getting everything right is a complicated balancing act. 

2. 
   WillGeorge | Jul 05, 2005 09:19pm | #8

   Cast Iron... My old tank retriever had a BIG winch on the back... One inch cable on the spool... and a BIG old power drive running it... Had to pull out a old cast iron fence on the base (A Major insisted that I do it) so who am I to argue.. Just a 'Tank Grunt'...

   Well, to make a long story short... My winch broke.. The cast iron fence bent but still stuck in the ground,,,

3. 
   philip | Jul 06, 2005 12:58pm | #9

   Yes but Will, now Bob is saying that a mere finish pin has mauled his Veritas almost to death....
   We may now be joking, but I am keen to hear what The Canadians at the valley have to say about this heinous accusation which may well have some substance. To this end I am going to wait only a while longer before contacting them on their hotline. I was under the impression that all calls on this forim were closely monitored by a Veritas agent , if not the Commandant himself.
   I have a vested interest in the outcome, as I recently spent 7/8ths of my life savings on a#41/2 and then time better employed sleeping in replacing the wooden parts with priceless exotic timbers from remote areas of Africa south of the Equator. GDI!

4. 
   roblee | Jul 06, 2005 05:02pm | #10

   Hi -

   I do monitor the forum once in awhile - but FWW and Taunton Press are in my "Bad books" - so I'm only in here infrequently.

   Ductile Iron is - well....ductile. Brinell hardness varies by treatment - but a suitable range would be 140-190, and for grey cast iron - 150-300.... so up to 50% harder. Hardened steel nails can easily reach 400 Brinell... twice as hard as ductile iron.

   Finish nails are usually very hard.

    

   Cheers -

    

   Rob Lee

   President

   Veritas Tools

    

    

    

5. 
   WillGeorge | Jul 06, 2005 05:19pm | #11

   Finish nails are usually very hard....

   Tell me about it.. Wiped out my Forrest blade on one of those... Scared the hell out of me!

   Not sure what kind of metal that nail it was.. Stainless??  Well, it was harder that that carbide!

6. 
   derekb | Jul 06, 2005 11:15pm | #12

   Just thought I would write a response in regards to all of the messages.  Mr. Lee, thank-you for producing a quality product.  This #4 smoother and Medium Shoulder plane are the nicest tools to hit my bench.  They are of beautiful design and operation.  As for the others who plane nails,  I'm not sure that any model out there is going to deal well with that.  Have you tried planing the same nail that gouged your veritas with your stanley?  No? Well then don't tell me that My plane is in sufficient.

    

   Thank you and God Bless.

    

   Derek

7. 
   philip | Jul 07, 2005 05:40am | #15

   Hell Rob,
   Thanks for your response.
   Joking aside, I am happy with my Veritas, but will bare in mind that it may be a bit softer, compared to my Stanleys etc. I have noted on "other" planes on which I have bestowed a new lease of life some deep nail scores-such is life.
   Would you be prepared to disclose what hardness range you work to, and confirm if this range would be similar to the other two well known creators of decent planes?

8. 
   roblee | Jul 07, 2005 06:11am | #16

   Hi -

   You caught me just leaving for a short trip...so I most likely won't be able to respond on a timely basis... but I'll do what I can to get the answer for you...

   I suspect we don't target a a hardness tolerance though - the heat treatment of ductile iron is usually focussed on stress relief...

   Will post something back here though!

   Cheers -

   Rob

    

    

9. 
   roblee | Jul 12, 2005 05:51pm | #20

   Hi Philip -

   Sorry for the delay replying...I got stranded for a few days by fog in Halifax ( the ILS was out, due to runway construction).

   Straight from our design group -

   The majority of our plane bodies are ductile iron: 70-50-09, a special spec that gives us machinability approaching that of 65-45-12 while maintaining a hardness close to that of 80-55-06. <!----><!---->

   The hardness for 70-50-09 falls in the range 170 - 230, the most common gray iron, grade 30, is 180 - 240.

    

   Hope that helps!

    

   Cheers - 

    

   Rob

    

   Edited 7/12/2005 10:52 am ET by RLee

10. 
    philip | Jul 13, 2005 09:05am | #22

    Thanks Rob.
    To me it means that if ever I have the misfortune to encounter a lurking nail it will be easier to sand out the scratch(es), and if ever my Veritas should fall to the floor I do not expect it to snap in half.
    It does not mean that "I will not buy another Veritas". ;)

11. 
    WillGeorge | Jul 13, 2005 09:44pm | #23

    fog in Halifax ??  Ya fibbin' US?

12. 
    roblee | Jul 13, 2005 09:56pm | #24

    .... Hard to believe they only get 120 days per year....

    :)

    Cheers -

     

    Rob

     

13. 
    lumberjacksson | Jul 08, 2005 01:29am | #18

    "FWW and Taunton Press are in my "Bad books""

    They gave the #4 and LA Smoother high marks in a recent review.  Tied for best overall with L.N. if I remember right.  I guess you wouldn't be where you are though if you settled for ties.  ;)

    Andy

14. 
    roblee | Jul 12, 2005 05:45pm | #19

    Hi Andy -

    No - it's nothing to do with reviews...

    Cheers -

    Rob

     

2. 
   MichaelPB | Jul 07, 2005 04:56am | #13

   Don't worry about hitting nails, how about hammer heads?   It is not unheard of to find one in orchard or urban wood.  I make gunstocks and have found all sorts of metal items in stockblanks, barbared wire and nails are the things I find, but one of the guys I buy blanks from has a piece hanging on his wall that has a hammer head in it, I guess guys hung them in the crotch and forget them and the tree just grows around em.

1. 
   philip | Jul 07, 2005 05:28am | #14

   Michael,
   I believe this could be the subject of a new thread-"things found in timber".
   I have found 7.62 rounds in timber from Mozambique- did not cause any damage to tungsten saw blade in spite of the contact shock (lead in fill). I am now waiting to be struck by lightning<j>.
   I also remember seeing an item that resembled a prospectors hammer in the middle of a huge tree which had been felled in Durban, South Africa.
   The chain saw was history....
   Ofcourse there are the more usual things like nails, barbed wire, fencing posts, bolts etc just to make our day.
   I am never surprised when saw millers look sideways at stock the origins of which they may not know about-imagine a 5 foot diameter break down saw blade with inserts encountering a prospectors hammer!

2. 
   WillGeorge | Jul 07, 2005 10:32pm | #17

   they are about as tough as a wedge of cheddar cheese..

   Ever try to get that off a china plate when cooked a bit???

4. 
   Walker1 | Jul 13, 2005 08:41am | #21

   Derek;   My daughter bought me a Veritas medium shoulder plane for my birthday on Sunday. I already tried it ,and it exceeded my expectations.  We are lucky men.   Enjoy your new planes.