Replies

1. 
   Stuart | Nov 24, 2005 03:30am | #1

   Well, it depends...either way could work.  You need to look at a few things:

   How much of an electrical load do you have in your house now, not counting the new shop?  Do you have electric appliances (stove, water heater, etc.?)  Electric or gas heat?  Teenagers who use electricity like it's water?  Do you have any plans for additions to the house that will increase the load in the future?

   Will the shop have heat, and if so what kind?  Lots of lights?  Will it just be you out there (using one machine at a time). or will there be other people (so there will be multiple machines running at the same time?)

   A single 100 amp service could be adequate to run both the house and the shop if you're at the low end of the scale, but upgrading may be a good idea if you have the need and the budget.  The second electrician's idea of running the new service into the shop first would make the changeover easy, since there would be minimal work to the house (the existing main panel there becomes the subpanel), but if the house electrical system could use upgrades anyway you may want to put a bigger panel in the house and run a subpanel to the shop.

   The electricians should be able to help you calculate the existing and projected loads, which will help make the decision.

1. 
   highfigh | Nov 24, 2005 05:42am | #5

   Whatever you do, the line from the pole will need to be larger gauge cable. You can call the power company and ask what they recommend and since they are responsible for the feed being adequate for your needs, they'll size it accordingly. Once this is done, you can upgrade the house panel if you want, or feed the shop from the meter box. If you want to have electric heat in addition to the tools, you're going to need some pretty large cable to support the loads. Think about the worst case scenario here. You may be using the heat, table saw, dust collector, lights and other devices at the same time. If you're going to have a compressor, that can kick on and the surge could cause other problems. Appliances really hate unstable voltage. So do expensive TV's and stereo systems.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

2. 
   WillGeorge | Nov 25, 2005 07:07pm | #10

   Excellent post.. I fully agree for what that is worth!

2. 
   JeffHeath | Nov 24, 2005 03:33am | #2

   skozub

   First of  all, I'm NOT a licensed electrician.  However, I've been in the construction business for 20 years, and I just recently built a new shop on my property.  If your current service is capable of handling more of a load without causing a shortage in your house, then you'll be fine.  For example, if your present panel provides juice to your house, and you never experience flickering lights, etc.... or tripped breakers when a certain appliance or air conditioner goes on, then you're probably fine.  Keep in mind, you're not going to have all these tools turned on in the shop at the same time.  You're simply creating additional outlets.

   I was prepared to bring 200 amps more in from the street to my new shop, in addition to the 200 amp panel already in my house.  The electrician that I hired to run the service from the house 400 feet underground to my shop told me that I didn't need to bring in more service.  He told me to upgrade my meter, which I did, and just add another 200 amp panel in my shop for more circuits.  I did all of the above, and can run a couple of 220 V tools at the same time in the shop, while my wife cooks, cleans, and runs a vacuum cleaner in the house, with the air conditioner on, and I've not had a problem yet in 2 years.

   Jeff

1. 
   skozub | Nov 24, 2005 03:40am | #3

   Thanks for the advice, both of you.  Right now we ocassionaly trip a breaker when we're running mutliple things in the house.  I'm suspect of the ability to carry the current load and add in additional to the garage on the current panel (even though it might be cheaper).  Neither the stove nor the dryer run on electric alone.  Both are gas powered. 

   Have been thinking about electric heat in the garage (a.k.a "shop").  It would be just me out there doing things.  I think I might have a tablesaw and dust collection system on at the same time with some heat and lights, but other than that I don't think it will be any more of a load at one given interval.  Summers might find the AC on out there in the shop too.

   Thanks,

   -Scott

    

1. 
   Stuart | Nov 24, 2005 04:34am | #4

   Peace of mind isn't a bad reason to upgrade the service, for sure.  If you're occasionally tripping circuit breakers in the house it may be a good idea.  On the other hand, that could be a situation where simply rearranging some of the circuits may help.  I have some similar situations in my 90 year old house, too - for instance, the receptacles for the microwave in the kitchen and the clothes iron upstairs are on the same circuit, so only one can be used at a time.  One of these days I need to do something about that.

2. 
   DennisS | Nov 24, 2005 10:13am | #6

   Skozub -If you're experiencing tripped breakers now, by all means do the upgrade with a new panel in the garage. I'm not a licensed electrician, either, but the handwriting's on the wall. In my view a 100amp service is pretty small even for just the residential wiring.You should also think about researching why you're tripping breakers on the existing house panel. Whichever circuit is going open is being overloaded. Not a good thing.

3. 
   PlaneWood | Nov 24, 2005 12:30pm | #7

   Yep, I think you should have another panel.

   What I did was drop another line from the house meter (through a quick disconnect) to a 100 amp panel here in the shop.  This way, current for the shop won't be coming through the main breakers in the house panel.

   Before I did this the main breaker in the house panel was getting very hot when both AC's and the clothes dryer were running in the house and I was out in the shop using my tools.

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
   PlaneWood

4. 
   John_D | Nov 24, 2005 08:38pm | #8

   The fact that you're tripping breakers does not, in itself, say you need a new panel.

   A breaker trips when you have an excessive load on a single circuit.  If you pull the panel and run all the same circuits at the same amperages, with the same loads, you'll be tripping the same breakers just like before.

   There is no solution for your tripping breakers other than that proposed by another poster:  The tripping circuit needs to be broken down into multiple circuits.  You can do that by modifying the existing circuit, which can be difficult to get right, or by adding in one or more new circuits and moving some loads to the new circuit.

   Just upgrading the panel will not solve the trip problem.  As to whether you need to move up from 100A service, there is more to it than the panel, of course.  You have to get that 200A (or whatever) to your panel... if you need it.

   Coming in from the feed, first you have to determine whether the supply from the utility company is capable of more than 100A.  Around here I think I can get 100A, 200A or 400A from my power company.  My own house's service is 200A.  If I want more, I'll have to pay the cost of running more expensive cable from the neighborhood distribution point to my house (not cheap).

   Once you get it to your house, you'll have to make sure your meter base will handle the larger load.  Not too expensive, but it needs to be checked.

   Someone already pointed you to what needs to be done to know whether or not you need a bigger panel, or more available amperage.  It's similar to what you do to size a circuit -- look at your simultaneous loads, add 'em up, and there's your answer.

   I just wanted to raise the issue, that the you've got tripping isn't tripping because you've got a 100A panel, it's because you're exceeding the current allowance for a 15A circuit.

5. 
   JJB | Nov 24, 2005 10:43pm | #9

   What I did was put my garage on a seprate 100amp service from the pole & left my house by itelf, that way if something shorted out in garage it wouldn't include the house. You can still live in the house if the shop {God forbid} burnt.
   If you not planning on rising your electrail load in the house why bother it. But I'm an ex Boiler tech, but I built the garage & wired myself & it passed inspection the frist time.
   You might check your local codes & see if you can run seprate service. You will have two elec. bills one for the house & one for the shop.
   Happy Thanksgiving JJB

6. 
   nikkiwood | Nov 26, 2005 08:02pm | #11

   It certainly sounds like a service upgrade is the way to go here.

   But before you do anything, I would suggest spending some time rather carefully mapping the existing circuits, since you most like have some that are overloaded (and are causing the trips).

   My own house is more than a 100 years old, and when I started the reno some 20 years ago, I was amazed at how much stuff had been piled on just a few circuits. It is usually pretty straight forward to redistribute the load on such circuits -- especially if your basement (or attic) is still unfinished.

   This is a job for an electrician unless you have a lot of skill/knowledge re: things electrical. But if you have a map of the circuits, and know which circuits run through accessible junction boxes, you can save the electrician a lot of time.

   ********************************************************
   "It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."

   John Wooden 1910-

1. 
   JJB | Nov 27, 2005 05:09am | #12

   You're right about the add ons over the years. Ran into that problem helping a friend of mine. It was a real mess, but I got it fixed. Don't want to get into something like that again.
   Take care JJB

7. 
   pah51 | Nov 27, 2005 08:21am | #13

   I also believe a service upgrade may be the thing to do. Not only will you have the capacity to run the woodworking equipment you have or may get in the future, it may also give you leverage when deciding on the appliances you install in your home. For instance, if the price of gas and oil continues to stay high or rise even higher, and electric rates are the lowest available choice as it is presently in this part of NC, you will be able to replace a gas water heater, for example, with an electric model at a reasonable cost. It will also have the added benefit of bringing your service up to code and may increase the resale value of your home.
   That said, I would run a 60 to 100 amp sub feed from your main panel (preferably under ground) to a panel in the the external garage. Be aware that in most cases this is usually not a do-it-yourself project, so it may be in your interest to have a licensed pro handle it. Electricity is dangerous stuff and if equipment is not installed properly it can cause you alot of misery or discomfort.
   As to branch circuit trips, the most common cause of a branch circuit breaker trip is an overloaded circuit. The cure would be to limit the load on the circuit or to add another breaker and split it up. The breaker protects the wire in the wall ( keeps overload situations from over heating the wire) among other things.
   Good luck.

   Edited 11/27/2005 12:24 am ET by pah51

   
   

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   Edited 11/27/2005 12:25 am ET by pah51