All, Iam curious about quadralinear joinery utilizing a lock miter joint. Im sure I could stumble my way through with scraps until I figured it out however I would like to save some time. It would occur to me that the demensional thickness of the members to be joined would be the key into setting the hieght of the bit in the router table. Any feed back on this as a starting point?-GoodWorkings-bufun
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Replies
bufun,
Yesterday i was watching http://www.thewoodworkingchannel.com where he built the drawers for the chest using lockmiter joints. The only thing I remember from that was his sides were 3/16" shorter on each end...
Maybe you'd get more info from the presentation.
The most satisfying approach I have found to using a lock miter bit is:
1) throw bit in the back of the drawer and never look at it again
2) tune up the saw to cut nice 45 degree miters. spline if needed.
If you do a search of the archives, you'll find plenty of discussion about using lock miter bits.
Thanks to Pondfish and BG, heres the deal, I'm contemplating makinlg legs and frame from quadraliner quartersawn sycamore that will have the grain popped for a visual effect, I contemplated the lock miter to keep seperation to minimum. All things consideed Pondfish does the spline sound like the way to achieve my desired result? Appreciate everything from youse guys and I will definitely research all insight-thanks much-GoodWorkings-bufun
Boy, Pondfish, do I agree with you.
I just finished an entire kitchen with all the drawers(almost 20 of them) and a bedroom with 16 built in drawers done with lock miters.
I had to make a lot of them twice because the work piece would slip a micron or so, or I wouldn't hold it exactly right, or a million other reasons.
I built sleds to try to keep pieces locked in position, and to standardize the thicknesses, etc. Nothing helped. As a result, some drawers were wider than others. Also, I used Baltic birch and for the drawer ends, sometimes the small square section would crack off, resulting in no side to side stability when gluing up.
I wish I had used the square bits for drawers.
Stef
I'm with ponndfish. There's other simpler ways to do the same thing. We only use a lock miter on a three side box beam cover only. For four sided leg joints lay the four pieces on simple shipping tape and roll them up. Splines or biscuits are also and option. Lock miter bits should go in the back drawer with glue joint bits.
The Freud guy may jump in here with some sage words of wisdom to lead us all down the path of enlightenment concerning the use of lock miter bits. So far, this skill has eluded me, requiring a 9th degree black belt in woodworking wizardry to even hope to approach lock miter perfection. I think the key to the joint is to line up the centerline of the bit's profile on the centerline of the stock for each side of the joint. Problem is, there is no immediately obvious way to identify the centerline of the bit. (Hey, Freud -- how about scribing this line on the bit?) I have only been able to achieve a modicum of success by running lots (and lots) of test pieces and readjusting the setup multiple times. In fact, I'm pretty much resigned to using my lock miter bit as a paperweight. I make a lot of A&C stuff that has 4-sided legs of quatersawn stock. I now usually just carefully miter the joints using absolutely straight stock on my TS, and either spline or biscuit the joints for allignment during glue-up.
An alternate method is to laminate several pieces with the "good" grain facing out on the two face sides and laminate a thin (1/8" -- 3/16" or so) piece of "good grain" stock to the two remaining sides, covering the glue lines. Then run the whole thing through a thicknesser to equalize the dimensions of the cross section. (Make sure to allow for this in sizing your pieces initially.) I've had good success with this method where my stock is not laser straight, making it too hard to get tight miters for the full length of the joint.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
To Hennessy(a fine Irish name) & all- I greatly appreciate everyones input! It will save me a lot of time and frustration. I'm beginning to understand why my old Boss (aka-slingblade) gave me the lockmiter bit in the first place. GoodWorkings-bufun
I had a project using QSRO with 3" square legs. I wanted the face grain to be on all 4 sides so I purchased the lowest price lock miter router bit Rockler had available (I also bought the set-up block - don't waste your money on that) After using about 4' of scrap pine (exactly the same thickness of the project) I had the set-up blocks and the perfect set-up for the legs. I routed all the pieces in 1 set-up and only used 1 pass. The legs came out wonderful.
3, I am delighted to see your success with the joint(should we ignore the beautiful bead, balance of design- style, dovetails and fitted drawers or finish) I planned to use it on tool wall units in the shop and after hearing the horror stories I am now comitted to it's use. Beautiful work, thanks, Pat
Pat, Thanks for the compliments, just be careful and use appropriate feather boards, push sticks, & guards. It is a fairly large diameter bit with much exposed spinny stuff while in use. I used a medium low rpm on the router, and even though I think you know it, a good router table & fence is mandatory.
3, they will be done on a LV steel table w/ spring hold downs and a 3 1/2 hp Milwaukee. The stuff that I have done on it has been dead on. The stuff for my kids/ grand kids, with a Stanley #45 or #55, takes a little longer but not much. Ha Ha. Tx, Pat
Pat, what a coincidence, I have the Lee Valley steel table and fence. I used it stand-alone for a while, but later built a full size router table with a formica top. I installed the Lee Valley steel table recessed flush with the top of the Formica. I am using the venerable Hitachi M12V router, and using this set up, above table bit changes are no problem. I take out the plastic insert, and use a flat blade screwdriver to engage the spindle lock, and the regular wrench to loosen the collet.
Jim
jb3, WOW!!!!,GoodWorkings-bufun
Nice work, very similar to what I ended up with in my project. Just out of curiosity, what did you do with the bottom of the legs since they had a hole in them? I was concerned with gluing a block and the resultant movement but didn't want to leave the leg open. I ended up gluing a small block in the hole only on one side, then attaching a foot block to the small block I had glued to the inside (if that makes sense). The foot is only about one quarter inch thick so it is not visible unless you really look hard. A rather inelegant solution but I couldn't think up a better way. Of course one of my assumptions was that the foot blocks cross grain movement might break the lock miter joint over time if it were glued directly. Being only a quarter inch thick, that might be a bad assumption.
I guess I'm a slacker, I just left the bottom hollow, never occurred to me to fill them.
Jim
I find lock miters to be extremely easy to cut with a pair of MDF sleds. The sleds are slightly longer than the stock, with hardwood ends glued on. The leg stock is held in the sleds by screws inserted into the ends of the stock, in a location where the bit won't hit them.
For 3/4" thick stock:
Sled #1 - Holds the stock FACE UP, and is made from two thicknesses of 3/4" MDF. The top layer is about 6" wide, the bottom layer is the same width, minus the final width of the leg. The top layer of MDF rides against the router table fence, preserving your leg's razor edge.
Sled #2 - Holds the stock FACE OUT, with the previously cut edge UP. Two layers of 3/4" MDF are cut to the same width, maybe 4-5" wide, to create a solid MDF block 4-5" wide x 1 1/2" thick x the length of your legs (and sled 1). The INSIDE of the leg rides against the fence, and the sled preserves your razor edge on the stock.
The bit is simply set to where the toungue centers on the stock. The fence is set at the intersection of the bit and top edge of the stock, when the stock is FACE UP on the router table.
You can make the sleds in less than 10 minutes, not including glue time. In a hurry? Use 5 minute epoxy ot hot glue to make the sleds.
I use the Whiteside 1 1/4" max thickness LM bit, I don't see why others wouldn't work with the same method.
Barry
Oh, sensei, we are unworthy!
Boy am I happy to read all these posts from other woodworkers who have had problems with the lock miter joint!
I built a small oak safe (read "box"), 1 ft. square, several years ago. The lockmiter seemed like just the ticket for a wooden safe. It were sure the folly of youth! Arrrr!
Fitting that joint to five sides of the box (absolutely not possible, I know), plus a simple compound miter for the door truly tested my resolve. A chinese puzzle is simple by contrast! I did finally prevail, but my wife would not speak to me for days - something about the horrible language coming out of the shop, or some such.
That was 30 years ago. I haven't attempted the dreaded lockmiter since.
Mike D
I have used the lock miter for several projects exactly like you describe. I have also read all of the advice for how to set up the bit and still don't have a foolproof method for getting it right the first time (or second for that matter). I do make it work though and love the results.
I simply eyeball the bit height and fence setback and that is pretty close. I then test the setup with the stock that I am joining that I purposely cut about two inches too long. I rout a little joint on the end, cut it off, test it, and then make adjustments. It will take a couple of tries but if you are making four legs, each consisting of four pieces, and each piece a little long, you have a lot of tries available to get it right.
The key to good fitting joints is to use the actual stock for testing as a minute difference in thickness from a test piece to actual project stock makes for poor joints. The other key is build a jig to run the stock through.
OBTW, I used to save the little cutoffs when I finally got a great fitting joint because I thought I would use that as the way to set up the bit next time. As I said before, I now just eyeball the initial setup because that method doesn't work for me. Maybe the set up things the bit companies sell work better for some reason, but if your stock is not exactly the same thickness, it's a waste of money.
Grab some scrap and play around with it. Once you get the relationship between the joint and height/depth settings, it is just a matter of having a little patience. I won't lie to you though, expect to spend at least 30 minutes getting it perfect.
Yes indeed there is a learning curve to the Lock miter bit. Set up is critical.
1. Plane all stock to same thicknesses, plus extra stock to be used for test/set-up runs
2. Set bit height so that tongue of the bit is roughly centered in the stock, then run two pieces of stock horizontally. Put the two pieces together like a glue joint, the pieces should go together exactly flush, If not, tweek the bit up/down and run again till the stock comes together exactly flush. Thats the critical part.
3. Don't bother buying set up blocks as they are not going to be the same thickness as your stock.
4. Run all of the horizontal stock, then lay a piece of that down on the table along side of the fence and cut a piece of small stock that will support the little tongue and apply it to the outfeed side of the bit with double sided tape. You don't want to depend on the knife edge to support the vertically run piece.
5. Feather boarding the vertical pieces. I put down a 1"-2" spacer block on the table miter slot then stack on a long 12" feather board that puts horizontal pressure on the vertical stock above the bit. Put the feather board centerd on the bit so there is infeed/outfeed pressure.
6. I always run the stock about 2"-3" longer than need just in case of some snipe.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
At the Woodworking Show the man from Woodline demoed a way to set up the locking miter that is very simple and acurate. He said they are planning on doing a write up and putting it on their web site but they haven't so far. If you get to a woodworking show check it out.
Or you might want to check out Sommerfeild
Jack
Edited 10/28/2006 2:13 am ET by JLMCDANIEL
Jack, thanks, one question(?) whose Summerfield? -GoodWorkings-bufun
Check out the link below.
http://cmtusa.com/store/index1.ihtml?x_page=store.ihtml&id=CID9570299815&step=2&parentid=&menuinclude=leftnav_products.ihtml
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
JerryPacMan, Thank you so very much for the web-site you sent. I printed off the diagrams and I hope with alittle practice I should be able to utilize this joint. Im on a stereo cabinet job where the carcase is white oak and I would like to set it in a frame of qudralinear mitered ,grain-popped 1/4 sawn sycamore(did I explain that right?) Anyhow thanks to you and all the other workers who gave advice and insight. This forum is great! I didnt know I could have this much fun with a computer. Good Workings-bufun
I am glad that I could be helpful. You first practice cut should be close. Just remember that when you do the fine adjustment, the bit should only be moved half of the distance of the correction needed, a very small movement is all that is usually needed.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
Some starter notes at the FAQ no.12.
RouterMan, thanks for the #12. I have Jointech mater cabinet maker router table with a 3&1/4 horse drive train. stock preparation and table set-up are (naturally) critical. This job will be a challange I look forward to undertake it. The client and I are well into the design process. Embracing the carcase in popped grain quadralinear lock mitered 1/4 sawn sycamore is an embellishment I hope to achieve. I like for my pieces to be distinct and compliment the space they reside. I will keep you and JerryPacMan posted on my progress. Thank You for your insight-GoodWorkings-bufun
bufun,
If you draw a line in the center on the board, lay the board on your router table and adjust the hight of the bit so the dot in the CMT drawing lines up with the line. Then atsnd the board on it's side and adjust your fence so the dot lines up with the line, you will have it set very close.
Jack
JL, Thanks. GoodWorkings-bufun
Although I am not running a production shop, I have used a lockmiter joint bit on a number of ocassions with success. I just eyeballed it, did some fine tuning, and it worked fine. I don't see it being any tougher than splines.
Alan - planesaw
Pondfish forgot point 1.5....
sell the sucker.
I have had success using the locking mitre joint, but not without abnormally high costs in time.
And never for drawer frames....that simple little teat of material is nothing less than a 1/8" chunk of endgrain waiting to split off. Ergo any structural integrity is disporportionate to the amount of effort spent trying to maintain a dimensionally square drawer carcase, and the rest of the joint is end-grain to end grain, a weak joint at best.
Bottom line for drawers for me is that the interlocking mitre joint shaper cutter or router bit is a total waste of time, materials, and ergo, money.
Moreover, while use of the interlocking bit may well be considered to represent a substantially risk to quality of work, mathematically it can appear even moreso.
A mere 1/128" (.0078") of misalignment on the front edge of a 22" drawer front (4 1/2" deep), well that translates to a mere 35 thou of an inch at the front end (about 1/32) , but at the back end of the drawer that would translate to .17", well over 1/8", and if the other side had the inverse error-which it might likely have) , you could end up with a drawer which is roughly 3/8" out of flat, and if you use FE slides, and without adjusting the slides to fit the drawer. but rather fit them square to the carcase, well, at full extension, the drawers may be out of level by twice that amount....3/4") hardly a workmanlike job. Wanna try to "adjust" things out of that when you got 15 or 20 drawers to f*r*t around with? Not me fella.
For jointing stuff like mission table legs (qs material) a case could be made, but even then,methinks proponents of this bit may be admitting under harsh lights and application of whips of fir-root to having the odd unexplained "open " joint.
Not being a physcist, perhaps this kind of "open joint" thing could be accounted for by the differential heating effect caused by hoggin off 3/4" of material at the bottom of the joint with this type of bit, but cutting off next to nothing at the top.
Even the most neophytic jointer could intuitively understand or at least feel the heat gain on one side of the material vs the other, and realize how it might affect the material being milled. A mere change of push stick position would allow the material to flex in cutting, causeing a little bump that simply doesn't allow the joint to close tightly. Ergo- an open joint.
And it wouldn't likel;y be a deflection in just one dimension, but in two, cause the opposite side-like the top, wouldn't be heated by the cutting action at all.....but that's mere conjecture on my part.
Bottom line is for me too, like other posters, this bit is a waste of time and money .
WAs 25 years ago when I first tried it, and has been every time I revisited it since then.
Eric
Eric, I have seen a thread that reports this joint as the best thing since sliced bread and yours that says it's not so good. I have a big bunch of wall cabinets to make(8 to 10) for the hand tools in my retirement shop and while I would like to dovetail or finger joint them them I felt that a router joint would help me get it done faster. I respect the professional (making a living) aspects of your position but I work for me. Is there another joint that you see that would be better? My last resort is the finger joint. They will be done on a LV table with a Milwaukee 3 1/2 hp. backed with 1/2" ply, rabbated pinned and glued (due to the weight) and hung on french cleats. Thanks, Paddy
OH, BTW, the rails and stiles will be maple up to 6" deep and MDF to 12" deep. The face openings will be from 30"L x 48"H to 48" x 48" with plexi doors and gun safe heaters in the false bottom case work. pfh
Edited 11/2/2006 9:12 pm ET by PADDYDAHAT
Cowtown,
I have only used this method for QS legs and humidors, but I will assure you there are no open joints. Of course it is better to be lucky than good. It works great but does take time to set up.
I would never even consider using this for drawers. There are many better options that are much less hassle and structurally more sound so I agree wholeheartedly with you on that. But if one desires a relatively strong joint with no exposed joinery, it is a viable option.
cowtown, very impressive summary, another reason why this web-site is so positive. when a worker can post a question and have the access to experiences that this site offers it is a very fine arrangment-GoodWorkings-bufun
I can relate to your frustration with this bit, the first time I used it the set up took over an hour. And a number of deep breaths, count to 10, relax and try again.
But the third time went quite quickly :)
This was with the router bit, I have since purchased the shaper cutter, haven't run it yet though...
In defence of this joint, there are instances where it is handy such as making up quartersawn legs or beams over three inches, etc.
I've been making 5" x 5" x 30" hollow columns as part of dining table pedestals.
The first glue up took almost every clamp in the shop, it worked but it was no fun..
The second glue up was with the vacuum bag, worked like a charm..
Cheers,
Don Kondra - Furniture Designer/Maker
donkondra1, I'm the one that started this discussion concerning this joint. To have this kind of access to so many workers just blows the mind. My shop is deep in the Appalachian Mtns and the ability to communicate with everyone has been more than a blessing. Why Iam getting in touch with you concerns my assumption that the joint itself would lock the members and clamping would be a minimum, your experience shows otherwise. Why come it cain't??-GoodWorkings-bufun
Greetings,
The beauty of this joint is that it can't "slip" when it is clamped but you still need clamping pressure from both directions on all four corners to get a tight fit.
Having said that though, I have heard of wwer's using the clear stretch wrap as a clamp. The whole column is tightly wrapped and this supposedly is enough pressure to achieve a good jointDon Kondra - Furniture Designer/Maker
Here's a little better discription of what I had posted.
Jack
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c313/JLMCDANIEL/woodworking/855_503ISTRUZ.gif
Edited 11/6/2006 8:42 pm ET by JLMCDANIEL
Edited 11/6/2006 8:44 pm ET by JLMCDANIEL
That's a dead link; I got a notice: " Sorry, the page you requested was not found."********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
nikkiwood, glad you worked it out iam curios what JL has to say
" it's not what you do. its how you spend the time doing"-bufun,2006.
Here is JLMcDanmiel's link:
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c313/JLMCDANIEL/woodworking/855_503ISTRUZ.gifSomehow the image tags got messed up, but it works if you trim them off.
Thanks..............********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I found some good setup instruction on the Lee Valley site with regards to lock miter bits. Go to http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=30119&cat=1,46168 and click on the Instr link.Michael
Good instructions, but they don't address the issue of how you cut the lock mitre on two sides of a narrow piece -- which would be necessary for making quadralinear legs that are somewhere around 1 3/4" square. For this you need some sort of sled, and it would be interesting to see what devices people have come up with.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
About 15-20 messages ago, I described the two sleds used to make lock mitered quadralinear legs. <G> Both sleds hold the stock with screws driven into the ends, clear of the bit.
They're simple if you think about it. The goal for the first sled is to hold the stock face up and against the router table fence. For the second, it's to hold the stock facing the operator, with the previously cut edge up.
Check out the previously mentioned woodshopdemos.com link, and picture the sleds replacing his push sticks, holding the stock at both ends.
I was looking through John Lucas' site, and noticed that he had several demos on lock mitre bits. He shows simple jigs (for doing both sides of a 1 1/2" piece, for legs), and has good step-by-step instructions with photos.
The relevant demos are about half way down this page:
http://www.woodshopdemos.com/prod-cmt.htm
********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
nikkiwood, thanks for the info-goodWorkings-bufun
What's this quadrilinear stuff? Highfalootin' if ya' ask me!
Anyway, the lock miter and what little I know-
all sides same thickness
trial and error won't take long -
One good thing is you can cut lock miters on edges of long pieces of stock then rip to width
<<One good thing is you can cut lock miters on edges of long pieces of stock then rip to width>>Pray tell ------ how you gonna do that if you're trying to do legs that are 1 1/2 or 1 3/4" square.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
carver, of course its high falootin, the idea is to have the 1/4sawn sycamore on all sides and then pop the grain with a dye for a visual effect. this will be on a white oak carcase. Iam still in the designing stage and whats so very good is all the experienced workers such as yourself making comments and suggsetions. This web-site has been one of the best things thats happened to me since I used my first cutterhead forty years ago-GoodWorkings-bufun
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