Replies

1. 
   BALDEAGLE | Dec 13, 2004 01:58am | #1

   Hi Bill, I use a Wolfcraft universal tabel that takes circ saw, jig saw and router.  It cost around £100 British Pounds it takes a little time to set up, but with careful grouping of jobs it works out ok.  I don't have much room either and I am glad this table folds up out of the way.  I also use an electric off cut saw.  I do use hand tools as well and I find a Japanese pull saw works well with a mitre box, more accurate than a tenon saw. That's my opinion anyway.

   All the best and Merry Christmas 

1. 
   user-70678 | Dec 14, 2004 01:36am | #4

   Thanks, Steve!

2. 
   WayneL5 | Dec 13, 2004 02:19am | #2

   It depends on what you are planning to make.  But in general, I'd say a jig saw is quite inadequate for woodworking.  Jigsaws won't cut a straight line even with a guide, and they won't cut perpendicular to the face due to flexing of the blade.  So nothing you cut with a jig saw will fit no matter how hard you try.

   A power miter saw is an excellent choice for crosscuts of all kinds.  You may want a higher quality, finer blade than will come with the saw, but you can get very good crosscuts with one.

   That leaves panels and ripping.  Panels could be cut with a circular saw so long as you use a good blade, clamp a straight edge to the work as a guide, and the base of the saw is not misaligned with the blade.  You could rip with a hand saw and clean up with a hand plane.  It's a lot of work, but doable.

   An alternative to a table saw would be a bandsaw.  You can rip with it easily and safely.  It will not kick back or bind like a tablesaw sometimes can.  The rip will be as straight as you can draw a line and follow it, but won't be smooth, so you'll still need a hand plane, but it sure beats rip sawing by hand.  And, the bandsaw can do nearly everything you'd want to do with a jigsaw so long as the work is not too large to fit in the machine.  Again, you'll need the appropriate blades, the blade for ripping would be different from the blade for curved cuts.

   You can get many more opinions if you post the question in Knots.

1. 
   user-70678 | Dec 14, 2004 01:36am | #3

   Thanks!

   Rather than a power miter saw, I was considering a hand-powered model.  I'm looking at the Jorgensen Compound Miter Saw and the more expensive Nobex Champion Miter Saw. 

   Do you have any comments about going this route?

   I appreciate it.

1. 
   WayneL5 | Dec 15, 2004 05:00am | #7

   I don't have experience with high quality hand miter saws, but no drawbacks jump out at me.  A shooting board may be a good idea for smoothing the cut as another poster had said.

2. 
   Ribeye | Jan 03, 2005 09:54am | #17

   I actually bought one of those Jorgey CMS thingamabobbers, took it home, used it once and went right back to Lowes with it and bought a motorized 10" CMS.  That all happened within a 2-hour time span one fine Saturday a few years ago.

   My advice is: save your self the trip to take the Jorgenson hand-powered CMS back.  (The thing is indeed fascinating and entertaining to toy with, but that really is about where it ends.)

   Oh, BTW, I've since replaced the original ten-inch CMS with a 12-inch CMS.  Consider getting a 12-inch (or better yet!) a 10" Sliding Compound Miter Saw. 

    -- Steve

   Enjoy life & do well by it;

   it might well be the only chance you get.

   http://www.ApacheTrail.com/ww/

3. 
   Midnight | Dec 14, 2004 04:46am | #5

   Hi Bill...

   an all handraulic workshop is definitely possible, although thesedays it's far from "normal"... but what the heck...normal's for sheep...  ;)

   On the market these days are literally hundreds of real fine hand saws in dozens of varieties, however, to cover all your cutting needs, your probably gonna need to include some of the more exotic styles... exotic meaning that you may well need to build these yourself, but that's not as difficult as it sounds. Making your own bow saws and panel saws can give virtually all the cutting capability that a bandsaw has, and they'll cut far quicker than a conventional hand saw.

   I'd best caution you... that on their own, no single hand saw will ever directly replace a table saw... but a broad range of tools will cover just about everything a table saw can do... and get it done far safer too provided you aren't in a hurry.

   One saw not to get however, is that handraulic miter saw; I know from bitter experience that their limitations far outweigh their potential benefits, and their accuracy is pitiful at best. You'd be far better served with a good compound miter saw. Failing that, cross cut roughly to size/shape/angle, and use customized shooting boards and hand planes to creep up to final size.

   Mike Wallace

   Stay safe....Have fun

4. 
   Patto | Dec 15, 2004 01:11am | #6

   My first, and only power tool for years was a big 1/2" Hitachi Router, still going strong. The next serious tools were a Lathe and an old big drill press (the drill only because it was given to me), the last a 2nd hand 16" bandsaw.

   The band saw is in constant use, and I guess I will buy a table saw eventally, but I still get all the craft satisfaction I need from hand tools. I do not have to make a cent out of this, which I suspect is also your position, and for the price of a table saw you could buy 3-4 nice hand saws and a several good old planes (such as a Stanley 78 and a shoulder plane) that could both decorate the lounge room and cut rebates / tennons etc. Ripping a couple of long boards with a hand saw is good prep on your technique for fine work, and much better for the cardio vascular fitness thae all this electrickery.

   The only problem I have had with space on the band saw (a bit smaller footprint than a table saw) is infeed and out feed. I suspect that this is a major consideration with all stationary tools and a real consideration for the new shop I moved into this week.

5. 
   SWW | Dec 21, 2004 09:40pm | #8

   You can do precise work using hand tools. The key is to learn the techniques and jigs. I suggest Tage Frid's books. Almost as important, you must have a solid, heavy bench with front- and end-mounted vises and bench dogs.

   To answer your specific questions:

   To make crosscuts, mark out the line and cut with a finetooth handsaw(*). (I use an English panel saw. You can also use a bow saw. Don't use a back saw, unless you are using a miter box.) If your cut was off the line, clean it up by setting the board in a bench hook and "shooting" with a low-angle plane lying on its side.

   (*) According to Tage Frid, your handsaw should have RIP teeth, not crosscut teeth, even for crosscutting. A saw with crosscut teeth will not follow a line, as the teeth chisel out a kerf that is much wider than the saw.

   To cut a miter, mark out the line, cut with a handsaw, and then use a plane and a miter shooting board to clean it up.

   To rip boards, use a low TPI rip saw, and then use a jointer plane to clean up the edges. (I use an English panel saw. You can also use a bow saw.)

   I don't often use the small handheld jig/coping saw. I use a bow saw with a narrow blade for cutting curves. Some call this a "turning saw."

   In good faith, I should tell you that setting up to use hand tools to make real furniture will not be cheap. For example, to make a bookcase or cabinet, you will probably want to rabbet the edges of the boards (for example, to let in the back). To do that, you'll need a Rabbet plane. To prepare boards for edge-gluing, you'll need a jointer plane in order to do a good job. Many designs call for mortise and tenon joints. To do that, you'll need mortise chisels and a tenon saw. To cut dovetails - a dovetail saw. None of these items is hugely expensive by itself, but they add up. So, it would be misleading to suggest that all you need is a saw and a plane. And, don't forget the bench with its two vises!

   Whew! Long-winded! Anyway, I think it's more fun than a barrel of monkeys. Hope you enjoy it, too.

1. 
   user-70678 | Dec 24, 2004 06:49pm | #10

   Thanks for taking the time and interest in responding to me.  Your input is very helpful!

   -Bill

2. 
   user-70678 | Dec 26, 2004 07:42pm | #13

   Okay, it's taken me a couple days to get the courage up to ask this dumb question as a follow-up to SW1's message.

   Why do I need 2 vises?  I know every workbench I've seen usually has the small vise on the front left and the long vise on the right side, but for the life of me I don't know why.  This comes from my lack of woodworking experience, I'm sure.

   If I were just designing my workbench without ever having looked at others, I would place just a small vise on the right front -- isn't that the appropriate place for right-handed people?

   This follow-up question is especially timely for me.  I'm assembling my pre-fabricated bench this week and have already bought a 7" vise.

   I appreciate yours and any others comments.

   -Bill

1. 
   milanuk | Dec 27, 2004 07:02pm | #14

   As far as I know, the 'proper' place for a vise on the front of the bench for a right handed person is on the left side. That way when you clamp a long board or some such in it, across the length of the bench (assuming you have a board jack or something similar to hold up the other end), you will be pushing from right to left, w/ your right (power) hand closest to the bench, and pushing into the vise, not away from it.As far as the second vice on the end... I think those are usually used mainly for the dogs that fit in the top of them to squeeze something (like a flat board or panel) that is laying on top of the bench against another dog in a hole in the bench top. The same thing can be accomplished by using one of the Wonder Dogs or Wonder Pups from Lee Valley/ Veritas. Maybe not as fancy and quick as a tail/end vise, but it works and its cheap for starters.HTH,Monte

2. 
   Midnight | Dec 28, 2004 12:35am | #15

   BillTraditionally, both vices are used to provide clamping actions in both axis; the face vice provides a cross bench action, the tail vice acting down the length of the bench.

    The tail vice is generally used when working on the face of a board, pinching the board between a pair of bench dogs (one moving with the vice, the other retained in a dog hole strip). Traditional placement for a right handed person is into the front right corner of the bench.

   The face vice is generally used when working on the edge of a board, used in conjunction with a board jack or similar rig to support the end of a long board. Traditional placement for a right handed person is on the front left corner of the bench.Mike Wallace

   Stay safe....Have fun

6. 
   Midnight | Dec 23, 2004 04:42am | #9

   Bill...

   Some points I didn't address with my first post...
   I reckon that you could do the bulk of the projects you're talking about with a router table, hand held router, circular saw and a scroll saw... Just about everything else can be done just as easily with hand tools as it is with power tools.
   If you're working with boards as opposed to sheet goods, you don't need a single power tool to do the stock prep, although the tools i'd recommend won't be that much cheaper than their power tool equivalents. I'll try to explain my choices..

   A crude way to distinguish the differences between hand and power tools is mess control. Power tools can kick enormous amounts of muck into every corner of your shop unless you take steps to control them. Larger machines basically make way more mess, needing suitably sized dust collectors to deal with them. Smaller tools need correspondingly smaller dust control; a shop vac will usually suffice.
    With hand tools, most of the mess goes straight down to the floor where it can be easily managed with a dust-pan and broom. Power tools can get the job done faster but make way more mess while doing so, and sooner or later that mess needs to be dealt with. Hand tools generally produce mess in a far more manageable form; saw dust as opposed to fine dust, shavings as opposed to course chips or ultra fine dust.

   First stage in every project is stock preparation, no matter whether its made from boards, sheet goods or a combination of both. Sheet lumber is large, heavy and cumbersome; the sooner you can cut it into more manageable sized pieces, the easier it is to work with. All you really need for this is a good straight edge (or better yet, a pair of them), and a circular saw.
   Clamp the straight edge to the sheet, offsetting its position to allow for the offset between the outer edge of the frame and the blade, hook up the shop vac to the saw and carefully make the cut using the straight edge to guide the saw against.

   With boards, your first step should be creating stock that is smooth, straight and square; essential hand tools for this would be a course plane (scrub plane for example if you're working with rough sawn stock), a jack plane, a jointing plane and a smoother. Additionally, and every bit as important, you need a good quality straight edge (to calibrate straight stock against), a range of squares, and (probably most important) winding sticks to check for twist in a board. Although it's possible to improvise a rough and ready bench to plane on, you'll be far better served to invest a bunch of time in building a good, strong bench for hand tool work...you'll spare yourself a lot of frustration... don't ask why I know this....
   Stock prep with hand tools takes a bit of learning... but the basics are pretty straight forward. Choose the most stable face, and put that face down on the bench, and secure. Gradually plane down the high spots along the board with the course plane until it looks fairly even although far from smooth. Switch to the jack plane and start to level out the ridges left behind by the course plane. The action of the jack will gradually start to level the board. When the board begins to look half decent, switch to the jointer. The sole purpose of this big plane is to generate flat surfaces, and it does that with brutal efficiency... almost isn't fair.
   Next... joint an edge. Use your circular saw to remove a wainy edge if present, then tidy up the saw marks with the jointer plane. Repeat on the other edge making sure that both edges end up parallel to each other and square to the newly planed face. Cross cut the ends of the board square to the edges, scribe a line to the desired thickness around all 4 edges using the newly planed face as the reference face, and plane down to the scribed lines to finish the board.
   At this point, I'd leave the board for a while to let it reacclimatize; re-check for flat, square and twist just prior to use and adjust to suit. It's best to leave the board a fraction over the desired thickness to allow for finish smoothing.

   With stock prepared and cut to size, the next step is shaping and milling to suit your project. This is where routers come into their own. Ideally, you want to have a large variable speed 3+HP router permanently mounted in a good router table; this will provide more than enough power to handle any application required. If the piece requires milling outwith the capacity of the router table (cutting dado's in the sides of a bookcase for example), a good 2 HP router with variable speed and plunge is your best / safest option. Between them, they'll cover virtually application required.

   Mike Wallace

   Stay safe....Have fun

1. 
   user-70678 | Dec 24, 2004 06:50pm | #11

   Mike,

   Great advice and input for me!  Thanks for taking the time to respond to my questions!

   -Bill

1. 
   Midnight | Dec 24, 2004 07:05pm | #12

   anytime..

   ;)Mike Wallace

   Stay safe....Have fun

7. 
   gdblake | Jan 03, 2005 08:17am | #16

   You can build fine furniture with mostly handheld power tools.

   Get a good circlesaw for rips, crosscuts, and miters (make jigs to accurately guide the saw)

   Use a good jigsaw for curved cuts ( the cuts can be cleaned up with a router or spokeshave).

   Get a good plunge router and table mount it.  Add some jigs.  The router makes a passable jointer, will cut mortises, tendons, rabbits, grooves.

   A solid hand drill with a port-a-line attached works like a portable drill press.  Get Fostner bits, spade bits, etc. as you need them.

   In hand tools, get a tenon/dovetail saw, coping saw, and a Japanese crosscut/rip saw.  Purchase and Lie Nielsen rabbit block plane to square up end grain, size tenons, and clean up rabbits.  A Lie Nielsen low angle jack plane can do just about everything else you will need a plane for.  You will need a good set of chisels.

   Tape measure, good framing square, and small square.

   Using this combination of tools I was able to build beds, tables, dressers, chests of drawers, bookcases, blanket trunks, and a ton of other items everyone thought were built using a tablesaw, bandsaw, mitersaw, jointer, planer, and drillpress.  Take your time, be creative, learn what each tool can do and you will be surprised what you can build without a tablesaw, bandsaw, or other expensive equipment. (Just don't let my wife read this, cause over the years I've accumulated an entire shop full of bench tools under the guise that I needed them to do quality work).