Replies

1. 
   user-999997 | Aug 26, 2011 08:19pm | #1

   Get the best tablesaw you can afford

   About 20 years ago I decided to save $400 and bought the Delta hybrid cabinet saw instead of the Unisaw.  While it's served me all this time I constantly wish I would have bought the bigger saw.  I recently had a chance to use the industrial Powermatic 66 (the one with a riving knife) and, man, was it a pleasure to use; no vibration, little noise, nice clean cut.  That saw cut through stock like butter that would have bogged my saw down.  

   A tablesaw is going to be the primary tool in your shop and should last a lifetime.  A really good saw will give you excelent results with no fuss, you can certainly get good cuts from a lesser saw but it takes more effort.  Do yourself a favor and buy the most tablesaw your budget allows, if you need to save a little, look for a good used saw, there are plenty out there. 

2. 
   Fxguy | Aug 26, 2011 11:20pm | #2

   Tablesaw

   Yeah, I was kind of planning on a budget of $500 to $1,500 for the tablesaw. I figure in that range I know I can get a tablesaw that will last me for a long time. The other thing I really need to figure out is layout and storage / organization. Right now I have a workbench / cabinet built with a set of drawers on the right, space in the middle where my current table saw slides under neath and a shelf and drawer on the left. Above sits a 4 foot by 8 foot peg board which is in desperate need of orginization. Tonight I finally cleaned the left half of the garage where a pile of sawdust and a ton of scrap lumber has found its way. Next step is going to be to build a storage bin for the scrap lumber and then go from there working my way around to the other half of the garage.

1. 
   DonStephan | Aug 28, 2011 07:48pm | #3

   Seems like several books have been written in the last 5-10 years on workshop design and layout.  You might find them helpful.

2. 
   RalphBarker | Aug 29, 2011 11:15am | #4

   Cars in your shop?!

   Well, OK, if you must.  ;-)

   Organization and shop layout is, I think, a process of compromise between function and reality. Figure out what you actually need to do, function-wise, and then try to engineer that into the available space. Google SketchUp is a great software tool that will help with the design, since moving objects in a virtual shop is a lot easier than moving the real thing. When doing this, I'd also suggest that you consider allowing some functionality with the machines in their stored location. Having your table saw stored with the blade perpendicular to the wall, and having a bench with heavy-duty leveling feet next to it, can allow for smaller work to be done without moving the saw, for example.

   Also, consider "alternate methods". Rather than having a large cabinet saw surrounded by support tables for cutting sheet goods, a good track saw (circular saw with guide rails, such as the Festool TS55 or TS75) might be a more convenient option. This approach can also reduce the requirements for the table saw, but it depends on the nature of the work you will be doing.

   With your stated budget for the table saw, my suggestion would be to look for either "old iron" on the used market or Grizzly Industrial if you are still leaning toward a cabinet saw level machine. New, a Delta Unisaw or Powermatic will be well beyond that budget. Also, think about what you'll be cutting. If you are working with 4/4 stock almost exclusively, a 3hp or 5hp cabinet saw may be overkill (not to mention more expensive to run).

3. 
   fxston | Sep 06, 2011 12:03am | #5

   Setting Up Shop

   Personally , I am an anarchist toward woodworking and enjoy working with wood rather than machining wood.  The first purchase I would recommend is the best bandsaw you can afford.  Maybe you could get by with your Ryobi tools for a time and joint the saw cuts with some excellent hand planes.

    It is amazing how many Fine Woodworking videos show their professionals joined at the hip with their table saw, power mortise chisel, router table and power sanders.  I enjoy doing all my dados, mortises, dovetails by hand and finishing wood components with hand saws, hand planes, chisels and scrapers while listening to music.  I have even sworn off of piywood because it dulls my hand saws too fast.  If I had to make money by being a cabinet maker then I would change my tune.

   Anarchist!

4. 
   bones | Sep 06, 2011 09:54am | #6

   Wow where to begin

   One important thing you did not mention is budget.  That will impact a lot.   You say you have 19x19 and will still keep both car's in and thats a lot of space.  Well I'd disagree on that but to each is own.  My first ship was 10x12 and it was tight and no car.   Maybe do what I did with a previous house.  I sacrificed my car being outside and took half the garage and let the wife keep hers in.   Please take this one piece of advice don't buy crap tools thinking you are saving money.  Your frustration (you've already mentioned0 will only get worse.   Now that does not mean you need the best and top of the line eaither.   You can put everything on wheels and keep it mobile it will help, but if you can make it more permanent that will help.  I built my shop over many years.  Saving and buying one piece at a time.  First purchase would be a cabinet saw they don't take up any more space than a hybrid and get an old one you can save some serious money and old American Iron is far better than anything today(see my sig). Before I found that out I bought a griz 1023slx and still have it and its worked fine for me.  Doing it over I'd go with an old unisaw.  The TS is the center of my shop and all others built around it.   You mention Festool.  I have the track saw and use it regularly fine tools and some have replaced their TS's with it.  You can do most with it but smal pieces are just better with a TS.   I'd say next would be tools to dimension rough lumber. I'd get a planer. Again get an old american one.   I used a lunchbox one for 20 years and recently picked up an industrial monster (18") for a good price and it's a blessing.   You will need to flatten a face of that board prior to thicknessing it, so I'd get a Jointer.  Either powered or hand.  I used a LN scrubb plane and a LN #7 Jointer for a while and it gets the job done with elbow greese nicely.  I bought a 12" jointer and it's made the life easier.  A bandsaw is a great addition and versitile.  I have a 17"HD  Grizzly thats also served me well for a good long time.  I have it set up for resawing.  I just added an old Walkerturner 16" cast iron monster from 39 that I'm resoring and will use it for all other cutting. Picked it up for a song (125$) off craigslist.  37$ worth of bearings and a bigger motor and I will have a horse.   Router table would be nice as you will use that a lot.  I built one from norms plans and put a good routerlift (woodpecker) paired with a Porter Cable 7518 beast of a motor and thats used a lot.  I used Norms plans from new yankee woodshop.   For a hand held routing I have the Festool OF1400.  I also have a couple 6 series Porter cable and the 8 series but the 8 series was dissapointing and last porter cable tool bought.  (I'd still reccomend the 7518 only because they have not changed it).    For dust collection, I have the festool ct33e and for the big stuff I have a 2hp SEEKO unit that works well for my machines and its mobile If needed, but I have a flex hose with a quick connect with gates for all my pieces.  Finally start collecting clamps you will never have enough.  I use to tell the family for christmas birthdays anytime if you want to get me something buy me a clamp.  I'd say for the most part my shop is set now.  I'd love to have a sawstop just for safety sake, but other than that life is good.  Good luck on your collecting journey.  I'm 25+ years down the road.   I'd wished someone had told me about the old American Iron when I started but thas a whole different thread. Have a good one. 

1. 
   Fxguy | Sep 06, 2011 07:38pm | #7

   Some Clarification

   First of all thank you to all who have responded so far. After reading the replies I thought perhaps I can clarify my situation a little more. I have borrowed several books from the local library including Setting Up Shop. My current inventory of tools includes the following:

   Ryobi 10” Table Saw Model # RTS10

   Ryobi 10” Compound Miter Saw with Laser Model #TS1342L

   Ryobi 1.5 HP Router with Router Table Model # R163RTA

   Craftsman 12” Drill Press Model #21914

   Makita 18v Cordless Drill / Impact Driver Set Model #LCT300W

   I do have a set of 6 12” Irwin Bar Clamps as well as 2 24” Irwin Bar Clamps

   The first thing I am looking into is replacing the Ryobi 10” Table Saw with an actual table saw. I am budgeting around $1,000 for the replacement and am looking at something in the Contractor or Hybrid category that has a very good fence system and can cut straight lines with relative ease. As much as I would love to permenantely set the table saw up with infeed, outfeed and support tables, I have to respect the wishes of my wife and be able to move it out of the way and allow both cars to be parked when needed. I have built a work bench from plans from woodworking.com out of ¾” MDF.  The cabinet has a space in the middle that is 45 ¼” wide by 25” deep and 36” from floor to bottom of bench top. Ideally I’d like to find a Table Saw that will, once on a mobile platform, be able to roll underneath for storage and roll out when needed.

       Keeping in mind my budget and space wishes, I have been looking closely at the Jet 10” Pro Shop Saw Model # 708480K. My wife also likes the SawStop Contractor Saw and would be willing to extend the budget to around $1,800 to purchase the contractor model with full fence and mobile stand. However, that would mean waiting on the purchase for at least 6 months to a year. Any other suggestions?

   Thanks!

   Tim

1. 
   RalphBarker | Sep 08, 2011 09:54am | #8

   next-to vs. under

   Tim, I think you'll find the dimensions don't work well for rolling a table saw under a bench or other work surface. I'd suggest thinking in "next-to" terms, instead, assuming the height of the bench can be finely adjusted to be co-planar with the top of the saw. Large levelling feet can be found at McMaster-Carr.

   It would also be helpful to know the types of projects you anticipate.

1. 
   Fxguy | Sep 15, 2011 10:07pm | #9

   Projects

   Ralph,

       I expect that most of the projects I anticipate up front are props / sets for our church as well as halloween props / decorations. I'd like to learn to do some furniture / cabinets as my skills improve, but for the most part it will be props and sets for theater / halloween. Even with furniture projects, I anticipate them being smaller projects.

   Tim

1. 
   RalphBarker | Sep 15, 2011 10:19pm | #10

   Props and Decorations

   That sounds like mostly 2x4s and sheet goods. A miter saw for the 2x4s and a circular saw with guide rail might work better for you than the table saw.

2. 
   bones | Sep 16, 2011 10:43am | #11

   From experience

   As someone who has what you mention and don't get me wrong I love my festool TS55 track saw, If I can only budget for one the TS wins hands down.   I have a sliding compound MS and its great too, but very specific in it's capabilites.  The greatest limitation is for smaller pieces or thin pieces.  Unless you just build great big things like boxes and no faceframes.  Those will be a challenge.    I'd also mention a guy just posted over on the vintage ww site two delta unisaws 300 each or both for 500 A little elbow grease and you have a workhorse piece of hardware.  BTW I have no skin in the game for the two unisaws. 

3. 
   RalphBarker | Sep 16, 2011 11:06am | #12

   What I was thinking, Bones, is that if he's mostly building "sets" for the time being, he'll be cutting a lot of long 2x4s (or 2x3s) - not handy on a TS, but exactly what miter saws were designed for.

4. 
   bones | Sep 16, 2011 12:22pm | #13

   Hey, I have an old RAS thats sitting in my garage, that I can't give away. It's free if he wants it.  Not sure he'd want to come get it.   I even offered it to wonded veterans group that soliticts tools and cloths to sell and they would not even come get it.  

5. 
   RalphBarker | Sep 16, 2011 12:34pm | #14

   Paint it purple, so people will slurple! You need to give your RAS more mataz.  ;-)

6. 
   caboose4 | Dec 04, 2011 12:02pm | #19

   Radial Arm takeaway

   an idea, I had an old RAS that I got trading a pool table, used it bldg dock and deck and fence, then stored in my

   brothers shop.  He died and his dghtr got rid of it somewhere?? don;'t think she;ll do another tho.

   Joe

7. 
   Fxguy | Sep 16, 2011 01:17pm | #15

   Projects

   I would agree that for the time being it's mostly 2X4 's and 1x3's building boxes. My Ryobi Compoun Miter Saw, while cheap and not the "best" and not a Dewalt, does do the job and can cut lengths consistently the same with a material stop. As far as building shop benches and jigs etc, the biggest limitation of my current table saw (the Ryobi BTS12S) is that it will only rip about 10" wide. Even then its hard to get straight, square cuts out of it. I'd like to do some more work like a cherry framed mirror for my wife in the future. For the current mirror the local woodshop (CUwoodworking.com - sorry, but these guys are a great resource in Champaign! ) was kind enough to sell me the cherry and then join and plane it for me at the shop. This allowed me to cut the lengths and assemble at home. I'd like to get a table saw and then a joiner / planner in the future. I should probably say that I can be patient, if it takes me 5 years to get everything thats fine, as long as I can find some projects to work on in the mean time. Currently I'm not doing any projects because I would hate to take nice wood to such a cheap tool!

   Tim

8. 
   Fxguy | Sep 16, 2011 01:20pm | #16

   Delta Unisaws

   Bones,

       Could you post a link to those saws? I tried looking over at the site and it says the classified ads are down as the site is transitioning to a new server. I definately wouldnt mine owning one of those and putting in the elbow grease needed to refurbish them, especially if they'll be a good workhorse and last a while!

   Thanks

   Tim

9. 
   bones | Sep 17, 2011 10:09am | #17

   sorry gone

   Sorry man just saw your note and it appears someone snapped those up. I'd got them in a heart beat but I was short on cash at the moment and if I brought anymore projects in my wife would have blown a gasket.  Here is the link i use.  I check it multiple times a day(like i use to do this forum).  Deals appear and are gone in an instant so vigilance is critical.   I see TS's regularly.  

   http://www.owwm.org/viewforum.php?f=4

   Here's a unisaw for 500 don't know anything about it.  There is also Northfield for 1500 but that's whole different ballgame in quality.   

   http://www.owwm.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=102161

   I'm telling ya old is the way to go.  Wish I'd known years ago.   

5. 
   dailydovetail | Oct 13, 2011 09:16pm | #18

   Hi Tim-

   I'd highly recommend that you look into getting a Sawstop table saw. I work at the Center for Furniture Craftsmanship (a woodworking school) and we have 6 of them. Not only are the a lot safer than a saw without flesh sensing technology, but they are also very well made. Ours see a lot of student use/abuse and the handle it well.

   They have a contractors version that retails for about $1600.

   http://www.sawstop.com/products/contractor-saw/

   All the best,

   Mark

6. 
   G5Flyr | Dec 24, 2011 09:25am | #20

   Sawstop Is Great But Not Perfect!!!

   First of all let me apologize for this long essay.  I am afraid it turned into more of an epistle than a simple reply.  I must start off by saying that I am a beginner.  My background, experience, resume, space/budget challenges, etc. seem very similar to fxguy.  I have been in search of a TS for about a year.  I have received the same advice that everyone here has been giving which serves as validation in my mind.  I'm sure fxguy will join me in thanking all of you who have brought your GREAT experience to the newbie section and offering to share and help out.

   Re; the Sawstop -

   THE GOOD:  I'm giving it serious consideration too.  From what little I know they seem like a good saw and the flesh sensing safety feature is beyond belief.  My thanks to the woodworking instructor who weighed-in.  On 12/22/11 I spoke with a young lady who attended a woodworking school in Michigan.  She told me they had several Sawstops in their shop. EVERYONE - instructors and students alike - said it was a joy to work with and cited all of the criteria that you experienced guys say defines a good TS.

   THE BAD:  Nothing is perfect and that includes the Sawstop.

   THE UGLY:  My local woodworking retailer had a Sawstop demo in their store a few months back.  I WASN'T THERE.  However, one of the employees - a retired professional cabinet maker - whom I hold in high esteem was.  You all know what's coming...  It cut the hot dog in half. Ouch! That couldn't have been good for sales.  A red faced Sawstop rep replaced the mechanism and did the demo again (multiple times).  Every time the Sawstop worked flawlessly.  That was an expensive day for Sawstop.

   We all know that NOTHING is perfect.  Riving knives, kick-back prawls, blade guards and Sawstops are great enhancements to TS safety.  BUT - all of the safety gear in the world is no substitute for vigilance and adherence to safety rules/procedures.

   BTW - I still want a Sawstop.

   Best in woodworking to all of you!