Replies

1. 
   SCFrankland | Dec 05, 2003 04:29am | #1

   Check out Busy Bee Tools. They have a molder head and 30 cutters.

   Go to Busy Bee Tools

   And then do a search from the main page for B2476

   Scott C. Frankland

   Scott's WOODWORKING Website

   "This all could have been prevented if their parents had just used birth control"

2. 
   jako17 | Dec 05, 2003 04:50am | #2

   Jesada ,Wisconsin Knife Works,Freud may have something,DML.These companies may have something that you can use in combination with router bits .We use custom ground knives but the cost is huge and you generally need a lot bigger machine to drive them.

3. 
   Upraiser | Dec 05, 2003 05:13pm | #3

   Grizzley does sell the high speed steel cutters that fit into an aluminum head. It has a wide range of cutters.  The cutters are in the $50-$60 range.  Its a two cutter system.

   I have several and have used them a lot.  They hold up well in pine, fir, hemlock and will do a fairly large home using MDF. 

   I have the 3" crown, a chair rail, 3" colonial casing, a pickwick cutter that I make casing that looks real sharp for 4" wide casing with the channel and bead run down the center.

   I usually touch them up on a diamond hone, Makita water hone and get a few more runs before having them ground by the local shop.

   It is a whole lot less costly than going to the carbide ones, and a better selection.

   I would recommend that you get a good power feed if you plan to run much material.  You will not be happy with the results until you do.

   Curt

1. 
   billyg83440 | Dec 06, 2003 04:07am | #10

   Thanks for the info, i managed to find it now.  I've been looking at shaper cutters and nowhere does the moulding head show up.  Didn't page back far enough on the web to see this one.

   I've requested a full-size catalog several times, but haven't gotten one.

4. 
   Tao | Dec 05, 2003 06:50pm | #4

   Architectural moldings like you describe are pretty hard to run on a shaper.  It's hard to do details across a horizontal surface, when the cutter is on a vertical spindle, and you can't turn the wood up on edge, because you don't have a reference surface.

   The cheapest and easiest way to run the moldings you describe is with planer-molder, where you put a molding knife in the planer cutterhead. This puts the axis of the cutterhead parallel to the surface being machined. Perhaps you might use a shaper to complete the edge detail if the design requires it.  The feed rate is awfully slow, but you can get a decent result.

   There are lots of other ways to do this, but they all get more expensive.

   You can run base molding, shoe, and cap, plus sash work, raised panels, cope and stick on a shaper, but I'd seriously recommend a power feed for most of such work. Hand feeding a shaper is the most dangerous process I know, especially trying to run boards flat against the fence; don't do it. You can run boards flat on the table by hand wtih proper gaurds, and you can do raised panels by hand with the right jigs, but even a little shaper takes a lot bigger bite than a router, and the consequences of lack of control are a lot more serious.

   There are a number of people who grind custom knives for planer-molders, and the prices aren't too bad, since you generally use only one knife, with counterweights in the other two slots.  For short runs of custom profiles on a shaper, I use a cutterhead that holds knives with serrated edges.  Again, for short runs, only one knife cuts, and the other serves as a counterweight.  There are also heads that take insert tooling, and ones that take serrated back knives.  They all require a great deal of caution to set up, but I used them for twenty tears in industry without incident.

   Michael R

1. 
   Elcoholic | Dec 05, 2003 07:58pm | #5

   Woodwiz,

   I have a Foley planer/moulder which uses the 1 cutter w/ 2 counter weight option.  I had one cutter made for my 4 1/2" baseboard profile by Bellsaw.  It was about $100 including a set off three 2" knives for doing backside relief cuts.  The initial run was 300' and the economics were pretty straight forward.  The going rate for a sticker run was $400 for the setup before the first foot of material was bought or milled.  Besides I wanted beech to match the flooring (Pergo) and no body wanted to run beech because it's hard on the tooling and blows up.  The problem with the single knife is the surface has some serious mill marks which require profile sanding.  I bought an in-line pneumatic "choo-choo" sander for $30 and make a custom pad for it that compliments the profile.  The finish produced by the 2 knife W&H molder is much nicer and requires a lot less cleanup.

   This all raises a question.  Why wouldn't any conventional head planer with wide enough slots and an upsized motor be able to make moldings with the 1 knife 2 c/w set-up?  I ruled out portables because Belsaw recommended a 5hp motor if I was going to do moldings.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking

   Life is tough.  It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne

1. 
   Norse | Dec 05, 2003 08:10pm | #6

   in-line pneumatic "choo-choo" sander

   I give! What is this? And where do they sell them?

   Norse

2. 
   Tao | Dec 05, 2003 11:28pm | #8

   I have a 5 HP Belsaw myself.  It has two feed rates.  Did you run yours on the slow speed?  Did the wood chatter a little bit & screw up the finish?

   High speed molders feed at about 80 to 100 feet per minute, usually with 6,000 RPM cutterheads, and three knives concentric within less than .001".  This yields about 16 cuts per inch, and a glass smooth finish.  A Belsaw planer with a single knife cutterhead turning 5,000 RPM, and a feed rate of 20 FPM  gives almost 21 cuts per minute, but the cutterhead is a little smaller.  Still it has enough cuts per minute to give a good finish, and if you turn the gears around to cut the feed rate down around 10 FPM, you ought to get a real good finish, and with one knife cutting, I don't think you need to worry about heat.  If you're getting a poor finish, you might want to look to see if there's a way you can make the wood (or cutterhead) vibrate less.

   I haven't used a W&H, but I'd bet they do a better job of holding the wood down.  I don't think the cutterhead makes that much difference, because unless your knives are dead concentric, only the high knife determines the final finish.  Back in the old days before hydraulic cutterheads and knives milled in the head, 6 to 12 cuts per inch was pretty much the standard on production molders.  The newer heads allow higher fed rates and more cuts per inch.

   Good conventional planers have a chipbreaker that bears on the wood just ahead of the cutterhead and doesn't allow room for molder knives.  A planer/molder is a compromise -- does a fair job of both, but not great on either.

   Michael R

3. 
   billyg83440 | Dec 06, 2003 04:14am | #11

   Thanks to all for the help.

   I was searching under the wrong terms. 

   Searching for 'mouding head' gets me tons of relevant hits.

   Now I've just got to figure out what to buy<G>

5. 
   robkelly1 | Dec 05, 2003 10:13pm | #7

   I have a 3 hp 220v Delta shaper and run base and case in walnut, cherry and honduras mahogany all the time, using the 3/4" spindle. I use the 2 knife aluminum cutter heads from Grizzly and knives that I have made to the profile I want. A set of knives is about $120 for large ones and less for small ones. I have Grizzly knives for picture frames, chair rail etc. and they work fine. You MUST use a power feed. I drilled and tapped the shaper table for 3/8-24 (SAE) bolts to hold down auxiliary fences which are about 1/2" lower than the stock I'm running. I can go up to 4 1/2"  on baseboard, in one pass, letting the knives protrude an equal amount from the top and bottom of the cutter head. The larger of the Grizzly cutter heads has a 1" hole and I bush it to 3/4" with a lipped bronze bushing on each end.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 12/5/2003 2:18:15 PM ET by rob

1. 
   Tao | Dec 05, 2003 11:38pm | #9

   Rob,

   On your casings, is the entire surface profiled, or do you have enough flat surface left to ride on the outfeed fence?  If you go from a square cross section going in, to a tapered one coming out, it's kind of hard to get the wood not to chatter on the outfeed side.  I have made custom beds to go on the outfeed fence to spport tapered profiles, but that doesn't make much sense on short runs.

   I have set shapers up like a push-feed sticker, with the wood between the cutter and a special fence, but that's kind of a pain, too.

   I suppose you know you're kind of pushing it with your setup with the overhanging knives.  I don't know how thick your steel is, but be careful.

   Michael R.

1. 
   robkelly1 | Dec 06, 2003 05:05am | #12

   Michael, the entire face is profiled, the bottom 2" of the 4 1/2" baseboard being  slightly angled, maybe 1 or 2 degrees.  I set the outfeed fence so the bottom of the work will be tight against it after passing thru the cutter, and I rigged up some ball bearings which are moveable and stick thru the top of the outfeed fence to keep the top of the work against the top of the auxiliary fence. I still get some light chatter marks but you can only see them if you know to look for them.

   The outer fence for the 4.5" molding is a squared up 4 x 4 with 3 cylindrical slots so I can loosen the bolts and move it in and out. Everything gets waxed before use.

   The steel is 1/4". The gibs on the Grizzly heads won't accommodate 5/16". I run at 10,000 rpm. You are right, I'm pushing it a bit, which is why I get on the floor below tabletop height before turning it on.  Once it's running without blowing up, I figure the 4 x 4 fence is enough protection once I start running wood through. I have a 1/2 hp power feeder and run the 4.5" stuff at 9.5 fpm (my lowest speed).

   I've got a 2 hp dust collector going from 4" to 2.5" directly behind the cutter head and it pretty much gets most of the shavings, with rest going into the body of the cabinet.

   I'm thinking that if I go from the ball bearings to urethane wheels like from in line skates I might be able to eliminate the chatter marks completely.

   Rob