In a new shop would it be better to purchase a Shaper or a Router Table. Already have a Router. Have been told a Shaper will do all a Router Table will do and more. Is this true? A Router Table with Fence, etc, apparently will cost more than a Shaper.
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Replies
a good router and fence and router lift will cost more than a cheap shaper, but a shaper is far more versatile. not only is a shaper heavier, it's more powerful and can be fitted with a powerfeed. a quality, big industrial shaper can cost upwards of $5000 although that will get you a massive machine. search through the archives as there have been many good discussions on shapers vs routers. hope this helps
Thanks for your response. I was looking at the 1 & 1/2 HP Modle JWS 22CS Jet Shaper. Cost $700, guess that's cheap per your answer. Certainly can't spend $5000 as woodworking just a hobby. I do intend to build furniture and cabinets. Now that you know what I'm looking at, your thoughts please. Thanks, Arnold
I'd say you would be better off with the shaper if you plan on doing a lot of raised panel work, and take your hobby seriously. my first thought about shapers is that 1/2 and 3/4 spindles are a little flimsy when it comes to holding a big shaper head (especially if your using a powerfeed). if i were you i would look for a used shaper first. you could most likely find one with a 1 1/4 spindle and a bigger motor for only a little more than the jet, and less, maybe a lot less if your lucky. if i'm lucky i might get a free shaper in the near future. remember that you can use a router bit in a shaper, and inserts give you a lot of flexibility when it comes to custom profiles. hope this helps
andrew
Thanks Andrew. I'll look through the classified section. Knowing myself however, if something doesn't show up quickly I'll get the jet. Hope you get a free machine, that would be very lucky. Arnold
arnold, i buy most of machines used, and i know how hard it is when nothing shows up. so far i have been really lucky, but i find that patience is rewarded. i got a general 350 for 600 bucks, and it was in great shape. i have used a few solid cast iron shapers and they are a dream to use. best of luck on finding one.
andrew
I have found a used Shaper Modle 36. Owner can't tell me much about it. Thinks its a 1 1/2 or 2 HP. Have not seen it yet. Does anyone know anything about this modle Shaper? Thanks, agriffee
Andrew, you give good advice, however, the 1.25 spindle is bit of an over kill for hobby use. I have a 1" and at times, would rather have had a 3/4" to take advantage of a lot better prices for a slightly lighter duty shaper cutters.
I fully agree that you can get some good used shapers for about the same as some of the lighter new ones, but compare the prices of the cutters between the two spindle sizes and what your plans are.
I was fortunate to find a little used Powermatic 1" with a lot of industrial cutters thrown in. The cost to add cutters is a lot more than if I had a 3/4" machine.
On the other hand it is likely easier to get your money back, or more of it when want to sell it, if you have a heavier machine.
Just some things to consider when making the purchase.
Curt
Shaper, no doubt about it.
I bought a Powermatic with a 3HP motor (220V) about 20 years ago and it has been my most profitable and trouble free investment. It was worth every penny I paid for it.
It has 1/2" and 3/4" spindles, and if I choose, I could purchase a 1". Before I do that, I would purchase a spindle for holding router bits.
There are, in my mind, three real advantages of a shaper over a router........
And if I run a piece against an auxillary fence, I can produce items (like T&G flooring) that are of uniform width. I cut the groove first and then run the groove side against a fence set away from the spindle, and I will cut both the tongue and control width at the same time. Tricks like this make it a very versatile machine.
Get the best machine you can afford. If you were to spend $1600 rather than $800, I guarantee you will be four times more pleased. Dig deep and go for the best machine you can -- and when you finally decide on which machine, dig deeper still.
Thanks for the info guys, now I've got plenty to think about. Theres no question however that everyone agrees a shaper is the way to go.
Wait a second. You can make a fine $50 router table out of left over plywood. It will do almost everything that a shaper will. A router will plunge and a shaper can't. Router bits are 20% of the cost of a shaper bit. There are more profiles for routers (you can get a standard set of 20 high quality bits for the cost of 2 shaper profiles). I agree with the crowd about a shaper's qualities as well.
Would I get a shaper before a bandsaw, cabinet table saw, drill press, planer, set of planes, shaping setup, osolating sander, or joiner??? NO! If you have all that stuff and more think about a shaper. It is one of the last high quality tools I added. You can get someone to do all that shaping work for you until you get one as well.
Hard to answer this kind of question in a vacume. :)
Peter, you said, "There are more profiles for routers." There are, if you only look at catalogues. I've been known to grind my own spindle moulder (shaper) cutters, therefore the profiles available are unlimited. Some companies will make both custom shaper cutters starting at about $250 each, and custom router bits starting at about $168 each-- I'm looking at a quote for a custom router bit from LRH Enterprises out of California as I type.
But to address the question, a spindle moulder for a woodworking hobby shop? Hard to say. It would probably be just about the last tool on my list of 'must have's'. A inverted router in a cheap plywood table would do almost everything a hobbiest needs, and the catalogue tooling is a lot cheaper, whereas cutters for spindle moulders cost $100 and up each, but some savings can be made with a block and insert tooling. The cut produced by a spindle moulder is superior, they don't scream like banshee's all the time when working, and there are profiles and cuts you can work much more easily on the moulder.
Spindle moulders are much more powerful than a router, and it's much easier to get into trouble with one because of this power than with a router particularly if you're doing advanced work-- other than the standard simple things like mouldings, rebates, and panel raising for example. Getting the best out of a spindle moulder does require a good deal of experience, and a heavy financial investment for all the machine accessories and tooling. Similarly, routers require a lot of experience to get the best out of them too, but the financial investment should be considerably less, and the risk to life and limb through lack of experience is lower too, which I should emphasise, is not the same as non-existent. In the years when I had a little workshop in the garage for the weekend jobs, I managed just fine without a spindle moulder, but there again there was always one at work that I could turn to if needed, and a hobbiest can turn over the rare complex stuff to a professional workshop too. (Nowadays, I won't even hang a shelf in the house at weekends, much to the Nagging Queen's frustration; and I've taken away all her saws, screwdivers and hammers too, so that's put a stop to her wee schemes of screwing the job up for me to fix later, ha, ha.) None of this says don't buy one, and at $600- 700 for a small new machine, that's not necessarily a bad buy when you add up the cost of a router and all the fancy tables some people buy to do their moulding jobs. Slainte, RJ.RJFurniture
I think you are opting for the Shaper while cautioning the cost of operation may be higher. Since the Shaper will take Router bits as well, much of the higher cost can be avoided. Right? Thanks for your info. Arnold
AG, Except that router bits often don't operate very well in a shaper. They generally require higher speeds than a spindle moulder can deliver to operate optimally. Some of the very large diameter bits need speeds as low as 12,000 rpm, and most moulders don't offer any more than about 9,000 rpm. (Spindle moulders and shapers are synonymous if anyone is getting confused with terminology.) One comment you made I find of concern. You say that you're averse to making jigs, and cite this as a reason for opting for a spindle moulder rather than a router set up. Both tools are 'jig rich' and an aversion to making jigs will mean that you will never use either machine to their full potential. The attached image is a simple leg shaping operation that couldn't be done on either type of machine without a jig-- it could be done with hand tools of course, but that's not the point. Note that there is no guard installed and it was left off specifically to photograph the process. The machine also has a brand new false MDF top made and the guard was installed later. The false MDF top was made to eliminate the problem caused by the slight step between the sliding table and fixed cast iron table necessary for successful cross cutting jobs which is where the sliding table comes into its own. Slainte, RJ.
View Image
RJFurniture
Edited 7/20/2002 4:01:26 PM ET by Sgian Dubh
Edited 7/20/2002 4:06:47 PM ET by Sgian Dubh
For your info, since you helped with decision, I bought a bench dog router table. Happy with it but difficult to raise or lower(adjust) router. Guess I need a router lift. Building Cabinets for my Daughter (Ash) what finish or procedure should I follow with the inside of Vanity & Cabinets? Appreciate any help. agriffee
P.S. how do you avoid tear or chip outs with Ash wood? some so deep difficult to sand out. using a Dewalt 12" planer. Thanks, agriffee
I haven't noticed chipping/tearout problem feeding ash through planer.
Try feeding the other way. You might be planing against the grain. Of course, many boards exhibit grain dipping and rising so often in one length that whichever way you feed it you'll be planing the wrong way somewhere, and likely you'll get tear out. Also try a lighter cut, and after that, get out your sharp hand planes (ha, ha?) for a bit of final surface preparation prior to scraping, sanding, and polishing. Slainte, RJ.RJFurniture
Thanks for your input. Have al those tools except shaper set up. Don't even know what that is. Don't have enough skill to build the $50 Router table. The shaper I'm looking at will take Router bits as well. Every time I want to do something with a Router I have to build a jig. Don't believe jigs I build get the same quality as a shaper or router Table. Also tired of building jigs every function. Guess I'm trying to compensate for lack of skill with better tools. But, can't buy all tools, thus the inquiry re: Shaper versus Router Table.
"Would I get a shaper before a bandsaw, cabinet table saw, drill press, planer, set of planes, shaping setup, osolating sander, or joiner??? NO!"
Say what????
All depends on your priorities and the type of work you do.
Planer -- maybe especially if I could buy S2S; joiner -- that's a tough one because you can edge join on a shaper; a band saw -- probably; an osilating sander -- without a doubt.
Sgian is absolutely correct about ground to pattern knives. Believe it or not, HSS three wing cutters are still available and they are inxpensive. I don't really care that the cost of a cutter is 5 times as much (which is really not the case) because I get more than 10 times the life out of one and my production rate is 5 times that of a twippy router
Did someone say we were dealing with a production shop? History suggests that almost all the posters on this bbs are Impractical Furniture makers (as I am). We have no time constraints, but some limits on space and budget. So, if I was going to make my own kitchen cabinets and their doors... that is 20 doors maybe... I don't need a shaper... then I'm on to build a new kitchen table and chairs where again I could use my simple router to solve some problems.
If you can buy wood you don't have to mill (join and plane), let me know where you are shopping, it doesn't seem to stay perfectly straight once it sits in my shop for a week or two. Life is too short to deal with wood that isn't square. I used to hand plane everything, but man the machines are nice.
If we are talking about a production shop with this question, well... that would be fairly unusual. Also, impossible considering what has been written so far in this thread. :) They would know if you are going to crank out a kitchen every week and need to make massive numbers of doors, you have to have a shaper. Of course, most shops buy doors from someone else these days.
BTW - if you want to make a router table for $50 it is easy to get the plans from one of the many woodworking magazines or get one of the good router books (check Amazon.com for ratings). Check your local bookstore, this is a problem that has been solved.
All good advice, but I fear there are two essentials missing. First, what he is trying to accomplish. What does he need to do now, and in the future. Not what to buy to solve some problem, but what are the problems to be solved. Raised panels were mentioned, but are these 4 a year, or 4 a week? From this and the available time and money, you could make a plan going forward. Without this, the only solutions are to either get everything, or nothing.
Second, with a limited skill in designing and constructing jigs, how does one presume to design and construct furnature and other projects? Perhaps much better to back off a bit; to learn more basic skills and how to use the equipment that he now has.
Gerry
Hey guys, agriffee here. I don't know for sure what I'll do with a Shaper or Router Table. Just know its difficult to make all Router cuts freehand and would be unnecessary to build a jig for many straight cuts. I will be building cabinets for my Daughter soon, but don't necessarily expect to build a lot of raised panels, etc. I Would, however, like to have the capability with one tool or the other. Have gotten a lot of info which I appreciate, although some of info is beyond my level of understanding at this point.
I believe there is a general consensus that of the two tools a Shaper would be preferred. You will remember that in my original query, I informed that I had been told a Shaper would do all Router Table would do and more. Understanding there may be exceptions to that statement, is it reasonably true?
Just for everyone's info I have the following in my shop: 3HP Table Saw, 12" Sliding Compound Miter Saw, 12" Planer, 6" Jointer, 14" Band Saw, Random Orbit Sander, 2HP Router, various hand tools and My Neighbors Shopsmith (what a monster) but works as a Drill press, Lathe, Etc. Don't have skills to do all my tools will do--- but am bored with simple projects. Takes longer, make more mistakes, but learn faster with difficult projects.
Just trying to make a decision here, to buy, not to buy, or what to buy. Thanks to all for your responses. AG
Agrifee,
The key phrase in that last message was "going to build some cabinets for my daughter soon". In my house that means the CFO (lovely wife) gives me a pass on a new toy because of the mother / daughter thing. If that is true with you, you don't want to waste the opportunity on a router table..hehe.
I've got many of the tools you mention except for the table saw, jointer, band saw, sliding miter saw, orbit sander or shopsmith. But i do have three kids ..so hope springs eternal !
Edited 7/22/2002 7:07:13 AM ET by BG
AG,
If what BG says is the case, then I definitely agree. You could always build a router table with your new shaper!!!
That being said, I use a router table for many, many things. It is economical. In another post I spoke of wanting to build an exterior door with stile and rail construction. From what I have found, I can't get a stile and rail router bit set that is larger enough for a 1-3/4 door, but I can get them all day long for a shaper. I can still build my door on a router table, I would need to reproduce the cuts on stiles and rail by building them up one cut at a time with multiple passes and multiple bits.
Also, did I mention that I have an old craftmen shaper (1 H.P.) with a 24 X 16 table? I find that the 1 HP motor does not have much gusto. The table could be bigger, but that is easily enough remedied. I do not use it very often. This brings an acceptable shaper (in my book) into the 3 HP range (higher $).
If your CFO (as BG puts it) will go for a 3HP shaper (with a modest assortment of cutters), and you have the electrical capacity in your shop, and you have the room in your shop, then by all means get the shaper. Building a router table later on would be easy enough with left over plywood from a different project.
My 2 cents: Based on what you say, I would think that a shaper is over-kill for you. But if you just want one, there's no need to justify that. Why don't you improve your skills by building a good router table? One with an adjustable fence and miter slot should do everything you need.
I've been using a router table for close to 20 years and have built at least four of them, each one is more refined. I'd put the money for a shaper toward a good collection of bits that can easily add up to a thousand dollars or more.
Dave
I've found a Powermatic Model 36. Have not seen it, have to drive some distance. All person could tell me was in good shape, 1 or 1 1/2 HP., 1 1/18 Spindle, he thinks. Wants $400. Do you know anything about this model? thanks agriffee
I wish I could help you but I am unfamilar with this model.
You might do a web search to locate Powermatic's home page to see if they have more details.
I was misinformed of the model, it was a model 26. looked pretty old, table was warped, (cast steel don't know how warped). Fence needed rebuilding, not enough ways to turn fence. Just decided too much work and money to get it in shape. Now thinking of buying a new 3HP Grizzly, can get that for $845, $150 more than the 1 1/2 HP Jet. Had any experience with that tool? Thanks for your response. agriffee
I've heard that English woodworkers buy a band saw and shaper. Apparently they don't see the utility of the table saw or jointer, that is if it true. Does anyone know?
One thing for sure Agriffee, there is now such thing as having only one router and being satisfied. Norm has 6 and he wears plaid shirts !!
Apparently you missed the new workbench series where he carted some 20 routers off in a wheel barrow. Steve - in Northern California
Not sure what everyone else thinks about a shaper but it is a very unforgiving machine and not to be operated by the inexperienced. It is one of the few machines in your shop that will drag you in instead of kick you back. The photo of the journeymen freehanding with a bearing and template looks easy but its not.
If you decide to purchase a shaper for your shop please ask yourself a couple of questions first.
Can I buy it cheaper then I can make it? How much millwork do you acutaully do during the coarse of the year and will I really need this time consuming headache? Who will be operating it and are they trained properly? Why may too few knives diminish a quality project? Too many knives increase heat and danger, what do you do? What is the correct tooth/knive progression furmula? What is the feed rate formula and how does the sound of the machine factor into this? Just asking ;)Question man
Dragging in, QM? That applies moreso on spindle moulders fitted with square head cutter blocks than with contemporary circular blocks, and modern 'safety' blocks. The same phenomenom exists with square head surface planers, aka jointers. It's also related to the gap geometry between the cutting edge and the fence and the set back onfollowing corner of the block in the spindle moulder, and the gap between the cutting edge (and the set back onfollowing corner of the block) and the tables on the surface planer. Square blocks in either machine haven't been available, or much used commercially now, for about 50 years or so. I'll concede that there is still a risk of getting sucked in, and spindle moulders aren't for those of the pansy'ish disposition, nor are they suitable for the technically inept or inexperienced. I believe I was the journeyman you referred to in your post doing a bit of moulding using an L shaped jig to pattern shape a leg with a bearing guided planing cutter. Slainte, RJ. RJFurniture
?man:
There may exist within your reply a message that you don't want to convey or at least need to clarify.
To me you are stating that to own a shaper, you need to know a lot about wood machining fundamentals to operate it safely and efficiently. I completely agree. The caveat that I would add is that everybody should have that knowledge when they purchase or even operate their very first woodworking machine whether it is a bandsaw, tablesaw, router or whatever.
The reality is that most don't. Not only do they not understand cutting dynamics, they don't know about feed rates, blade presentation or setup. They probably don't know the safety rules and guidelines either. Errors compound with other errors until a very dangerous situation exists. If they are lucky, they will get frustrated enough that they will permanently quit using it; if not after 6 months of torture, they become expert and start telling others what to do!
I think my shaper to be no more or no less dangerous than my tablesaw, bandsaw, jointer, whatever. Each needs to be approached with respect and with a good idea of what can and will happen/go wrong.
I do consider one machine outright dangerous and I will never allow one to enter my shop. That machine center is the radial arm saw. I have been involved with woodworking for >30 years now and I have met more individuals who got hurt really bad with permanent serious consequences when operating a radial arm saw and the frequency of those "accidents" in my opinion is maybe 3 times more than all other "accidents" combined (save those associated with lifting).
Don't know how to take your responses. I have 4 kids- 8 grand kids, took 44 years to get those and the tools. Someone's responses seemed to question what was in the shop (reason I elaborated). Anyway, I decided to take Peter's advice. Have started an ad "wanted to buy" Wood Shaper- Router Table. Maybe I'll get both. Thanks, agriffee
Agriffee,
Just so were clear..my responses are intended to get a laugh out of you and the others..usually at my own expense.
There are a few good answers here and some really lame ones too. Bottom line is buy a tool that is made for the job you intend to do. If shaping is what you are into then buy a shaper. If you are a hobbyist and are just trying to get by then buy a router and a table and try to make it into a shaper. Face it, you are one or the other. Knowing which one you are is your answer to your own question.
Edited 7/31/2002 11:27:08 PM ET by Slim Eball
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