Shapers – need info and experiences
hdgis1
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
Im looking to buy an affordable shaper for under 1000 bucks. Anyone got any info they can pass along. If you have questions for me, just fire away! Thanks
Chris
Replies
Why a shaper as opposed to a router table? It has been my experience that unless you are doing production work, a shaper is just overkill. Let us know what you plan to do with it.
-phil
Lets just say Im buying today for the future. Got the money now and already have a router table, so shaper is up.
philjohnwilliams,
Why a shaper over a router table? First a router and table is more expensive than a 3 HP grizzly shaper. second the router spins at 40 bizzlion RPM and that speed quickly dull bits. Third most router tables I've seen are pretty flimsy.. If you ever need to do some shaping on big stuff they quickly tip or worse.
Fourth while your router may claim 3 HP it has that only at the 40 bizzion RPM figure when they are slowed down by a heavy cut they have a tiny fraction of that power.
Fifth because of their weak power you can't single pass really heavy cuts which forces you to make many passes. Every single pass is a chance to make a mistake. Maybe you can do repeated work without fear of ever making a mistake but as for me I love to single pass it..
Sixth some cuts can only be done on a shaper no router table is capable of making them.
If you look at the size of motor on a 3 hp shaper and compare it to the size of motor on a 3 hp router it's easy to see which will last longer and run cooler..
Seventh, 40 bizzion RPM is painfull to hear, dogs bark a block away while a shaper turning maybe 5000 rpm while still loud hasn't yet passed the threshold of pain..
HI
i didn't mean to say why would anybody choose a shaper over a router table, just why in this specific case. i use shapers and router tables on a daily basis in the shop i work in. the reason i asked why a shaper instead of a router table is that 9 times out of ten when somebody tells me they want to buy a shaper, they haven't the slightest clue as to the benefits of this type of machine. More often than not, they are going on the bigger is better mentality without considering what they will actually be doing with it. if all you are going to do is run 20-30 feet a day of a 3/8" roundover in softwood, then a shaper is overkill. if you are going to run 2000-4500ft/day of large cut in hard maple (as i often do) then a shaper is a necessity.
I agree, bigger is not necessarily better. Only different. I have both, and find different uses for different needs. So if someone askes me which shaper to buy, I would answer what do you want it for? What cutters do you think you will need? What bore for the cutters? If I was using a shaper with a 3/4" spindle, I would think it's a waste of time. You get more oomph than a router spindle with a 1/2" shank, but not that much more. So I would look for a machine that lets you trade out spindles up to 1 1/4". Look for easy changing spindles, and if the motor is powerful enough, a large enough hole for very big cutters. Also, you want a shaper, then you want a power feeder, or at the least, some very well designed pressure bars, keeping your hands as far away as possible. The shaper is probably the most dangerous machine in the shop, even more than a jointer (except the old square cutterhead ones).
Daryl ,
You said " the shaper is probably the most dangerous machine in the shop "
While I would agree that shapers can be dangerous , I would venture to say more injuries and accidents occur on the TS and RAS amongst a few others .
Really like anything else , common sense and impeccable safety practices if not adhered to can cause injury on any machinery .
I have been using shapers for 25 or 30 years and currently have 5 set up , but fortunately have never had more then a splinter while using them .
On the other hand I have had a few kick backs on the TS and a few close ones on the RAS .
still got all 10
regards dusty
I consider the RAS one of the safest tools in my shop if used right. Used right includes cross cutting and cross dadoing. Ones hand does not need to be closer than six inches from the blade. The worst it can do is lurch forward and that stops the motor.
Hi tinkerer2 ,
When the RAS lurches forward you say your motor stops , I have a 12" older Rockwell RAS and the motor has never stalled on me . Still I use caution and have much respect for all machines especially the ones in question .
My comment was really intended to find out what is considered the most dangerous machines in the shop , not the safest .
More directly , have you ever had an injury on the TS , RAS or shaper how about the router or edge sander , ouch !
So in your experience what would you say is the most dangerous in your shop ?
regards dusty
I agree with the power feeder. I didn't get my shaper until I could afford both the shaper AND the feeder at one shot. Also dump the miter gauge and build/buy a sled where you can clamp your work and keep your hands on the sled, not the work.
I have a Grizzly 1026 and I'm pleased with the results. I just finished finger jointing and edge finishing a bunch of 5" Bolivian rosewood flooring - cut to up to work as base molding. I'd have been buying 4-5 router bits to do this if I was using a router, both edge and finger joint shaper bits are still in good shape.
Les
Frenchy,
I know you are experienced from your previous posts, however I think that you are short changing a good router table set up. I have made maybe 100 doors in the last year on a router table. I know that is not a lot, but it is safe to say I know what a routers capabilities are. You are insinuating that the higher speeds of a router lead to router bits having a shorter life than shaper cutters. Routers only spin around 10,000 RPMs when using panel raisers. Shapers generally turn at 7,000 or 10,000 in the same senario. And because a shaper cutter has a signifigantly larger diamater the velocity of the cutters is at least as fast. The reason that shaper cutters last longer is because they have three edges instead of two, and there is a very slight advantage in the angle of attack so shaper cutters aren't shocked as much on the entry of the cut. I can raise a panel in two passes on my router table though I usually take three, it takes the same two passes on a shaper. If you try to take one pass on a shaper the cut will look bad and tearout will be very bad on the endgrain. Not to mention that without a power feeder it is unsafe to take heavy cuts. You also have to factor that shaper tooling is about double the price. I paid $450 far a Freud shaper door set, the same router bit door set is $180. And the shaper set will not last twice as long between sharpenings.
I'm really not saying that one set up is better than the other, just that there is a definate overlap between the two. In order to justify the expense of a shaper you need to use power feeders for production and improved safety and get a machine that is capable of the heavier shaper functions.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Mudman,
your spelling is fine, certainly no worse than mine..
I've felt that the weight to cut ratio is the determining factor with regard to safely using a shaper. A heavy cut on a small light piece of wood is an invitation to a problem while a light cut on a heavy piece of wood is much safer!
I've wrestled with router tables in the past and they are extremely dangerous for large pieces of wood. They tip over simply because a large chunk of wood weighs more than they do..
Hmmmm my experiance with the life of sharpness on shaper cutters is much better than yours. You indicate you shape at 10,000 RPM while I doubt mine is over 5000 RPM.. maybe that's it? I buy inexpensive shaper cutters (Grizzly) because I haven't found any improvement with the expensive kind.. In fact the few sets of Freud I've bought and one set of Whiteside didn't last as long as the Grizzly.. Maybe in router bits expensive brands are worth it.. I can't prove it though..
In all honesty I'm the wrong person to ask about number of passes etc. you can get out of a set.. My wood varies from fresh green wood (tree last week) to 7% moisture content. This week I may be working on black walnut or red pine or tamarck or white oak, hard maple or paducka or any one of the dozen or so hardwoods I rgularly use..
I seldom make more than a pass or two before I use another set of cutters or do a differant job.. The only point I can see using a power feeder is when I start on my flooring a few years from now.. While you may need the feeder to safey handle production work. I can't see setting one up for a pass or two..
Every thing you say makes a lot of sense to me. My router table weighs around 150 pounds and that dosent count the Unisaw it is connected to! So tip over is unlikely. However using a large bit in one of those bench top tables sounds very dangerous.
All the shapers I have seen spin 7000 RPM on the low speed. Some of the monster 7 and 10 HP machines have a slower speed. But because a shaper cutter is at least 50% larger than a comparable router bit the speed (velocity) at the cutting edges are near the same.
You are right about setting up a power feeder the first couple times, but after you use one a few times it is as easy to set up as the spring steel hold downs and the feather boards. Aside ffrom safety, the power feeder offers a couple other advanges. The feeder is very heavy and dosen't give as much as your hands when feeding the stock. This lessens the "jumping" of the board against the cutter resulting in a smoother finish, espacially in very hard woods like the stuff you work. And the big advantage of a shaper and power feeder combo is climb cutting! Because shapers and feeders are reversable you can tackle difficult tearout prone stuff a lot easier.
I don't have the time on a shaper that you seem to have so I could be off about tooling life. However I am compairing top of the line tooling for both machines.
MikePardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Hi Mike ,
You know as far as the life span of shaper and router cutters goes, my main stile and rail 1" bore 3 wing stacked shaper cutters were purchased new about 15 years ago and honestly I have run hundreds if not thousands of doors with them , they have been sharpened as needed every 3 or 4 hundred doors or when they start to burn . They still cut like butter when sharp and imo for the $ 500 or so I paid for them they were a bargain in the long run .
I run a power feeder on one of my shapers and most often run my moldings with it . You are correct about the stock feeder not only making for a safer way to go but seeing as though they push against the fence and forward and down at the same time they produce a chatter less result and more flawless products .
Most of the shapers I have spin between 8 - 10 thousand rpm , routers are closer to 15- 20 thousand rpms in general .
Quality Router bits and cutters if not abused should last a long long time as well .
regards dusty
Your experiences are more in line with my own. Shaper cutters do last %50, or more, longer between sharpenings, and they generally have more carbide so they can be sharpened more times. But for a small shop or a hobiest they will never make up the initial cost difference.
You are exactly right about the speeds or routers and shapers, but when you factor in the difference in diamater the speeds of the actual cutting edges are nearly equal. Also because a shaper cutter has 50% more cutters than router bits the "cuts per minute" are going to be equal, in fact if a shaper is turning at 7,000 RPM a router has to turn at 10,500 RPM just to equal the cuts per minute. So if your shaper is turning closer to 8,000 RPMs and you figure that a router slows down noticably under load things even out between the two.
Chatter, that was the word I was looking for. Power feeders reduce chatter.
Over all what I am sujesting is that if you are a small shop or hobiest and you are only going to have one shaper, make sure the shaper will do more than just make doors (which a router table will already do just fine), get a machine that can make large mouldings, window and entry doors as well. And get a power feeder as soon as you can, then you can realize the full potiential of a shaper.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Also because a shaper cutter has 50% more cutters than router bits the "cuts per minute" are going to be equal...
I'm not an expert on this by any means, but I've read before that due to spindle runout and due to the fact that the cutting surfaces are never 100% accurately located in the cutting diameter, that only ONE blade actually cuts the wood. The other one (or two) are just along for the ride. I've even read of some people putting a "blank" knife on a cutterhead just to produce rotational balance, but not to produce a cut.
Does anyone care to comment on this?
You are right that people routinely use a single knife moulding head, in a shaper or a moulder. The resulting cut is not very nice, the reason that shops do it is that for short runs it costs a half or a third of a two or three knife set. When I say short runs I mean less that 30 or 50 feet. There will be a lot of sanding afterwards. Three knifes absolutely cut better than one. And on this I am speaking from experience.
The cutters on even a half way decient bit or cutter are alligned to high enough tolerances that they do all cut. Who ever told you that is ..... hopelessly misinformed. An easy example in your own shop is that if you do a decient job setting your planer or jointer knives they all dull evenly. Same is true with shaper tooling. If you spindle has that much runout it needs to be replaced. But I doubt it does it takes a lot of abuse to mess up a 1" spindle, if you do you will know it!
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Hi Ragnar17 ,
Well I am one of those who has used shaper collars with only one knife ground with a profile , and have lived to tell about it .
Also against the belief of many , I agree that only one knife can make contact first . I know that popular beliefs differ on this matter .
In the case of the shaper collar with knives I have ground myself when I , on rare occasion have used only one profiled knife the results have been quite acceptable .
As you mentioned even on a 1 piece 3 wing cutter one knife hits before the others , it is my understanding the other knives provide balance and cut the chips up smaller , which help to produce a better result .
regards dusty
As you mentioned even on a 1 piece 3 wing cutter one knife hits before the others , it is my understanding the other knives provide balance and cut the chips up smaller , which help to produce a better result .
Sounds like a mighty smelly fish story to me. Charles are you out there? How about Freud weighing in on this?
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
I was thinking the same thing, hopefully Charles is watching this thread and he will step in before we completly bastardize the physics of rotary cutting tools.
MikePardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
dgreen & Mike ,
I am not saying all 3 cutters don't cut at all , but only one can make contact first . The slower the feed rate the more times all the cutters make contact . The chips get cut up smaller by all the cutters .
Just like the collar with only 1 profiled or contacting knife , the feed rate and amount of cut can determine the quality of the result as well as a sharp knife or cutter can .
When I run my power feed at the fastest per foot setting depending on the profile the results are not great usually a slower feed rate produces a better molding or profile . More cuts per foot from a slower feed rate I would think . Not to be confused with cuts per minute .
dusty
That is an incredible mix of the painfully obvious and absolute BS.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Hi dgreen ,
So , is it data you need ? is it the opinion of one individual considered an expert by some ? Have you ever ground your own shaper knives ?
while I am not an expert grinder I can get the job done and have created numerous profiles , mostly to match existing works in old homes . It is quite fun to actually do the metal work seeing as I have little formal training in metals I have learned as I go .
I learned when I apprenticed and while there is not a huge demand locally for custom moldings while involved on a few restorations of homes I was able to help out . The rules of supply and demand allow you to name your price .
When grinding a more detailed crown molding knife I only made one and only gave it a rough shape and weight for balance in the collar , have you ever used collars ?
To my surprise the results were sweet and to this day this is one of my favorite profiles .
I know one cutter cuts how bout you ?
Can you prove otherwise ?
dusty
So , is it data you need ? is it the opinion of one individual considered an expert by some ?
I did not ask for one persons opinion, I asked Charles if Freud could weigh in on the question. I would imagine they have more than one expert since even you may admit they have some experience with rotating cutters.
Yes I do grind my own cutters and I use CMT's collar. I grind my knives in pairs and to the best of my ability to determine they both cut. As for your brain dead observation that one cutter will cut if it's the only cutter in the head, well DUH. I still do not believe the other cutters are only there to finely chop the detrius created by (according to your theory) the only cutter making the profile.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Dgreen is right. You are misinformed about this. If have used single knife heads and 2 knife heads there is a very noticeable difference in quality. Also the faster you feed the more evenly the cutting load is distributed over the cutters. Think about it, if the stock is not moving at all the most proud knife will be the only one to cut. The faster you feed the lumber the more the uncut stock will meet the different knives. You are thinking staticly. If you imagine the lumber advancing into the cutter (dynamically) you can see that unless the allignment is way out (if you are making your own knives this may be the case) they will all meet fresh stock.
I have heard this before, usually from old cantankerous hobiest that make bird houses. Never from an experienced millwright who grinds their own knives.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
I don't know how deeply I want to wade into this but since asked I will answer these questions:Q: Do all of the wings cut or only one?
A: All of the wings cut unless the spindle and/or cutter have major runout. It is true that since no setup is "perfect" one wing will have more load than the others but the difference should be insignificant.Q: Will a one wing cutter make good moldings?
A: Maybe, if well made and care is taken to keep the feed rate slow in relation to the cutter speed. As noted earlier in this thread, custom ground cutters for small runs are sometimes made with only one wing because of the difficulty and expense of making matching cutters for the other wings.Charles M
Freud America, Inc.
Edited 6/8/2006 11:48 am ET by CharlesM
Many thanks for the reply Charles.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
CharlesM , Thanks for your expertise, You pretty much refined but validated my opinions . We first noticed how one wing on shaper cutters would be dirtier than all the others at resharpen time even on 3 wing 1 piece cutters . I certainly agree about the slower feed rate for single knive runs and such .
regards dusty
Have no clue how you got validation for your bizarre theorys out of that but I'm not surprised you claim it.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
I said " only one cutter can make contact first "
Charles said " all of the wings cut and it is true that since no setup is perfect one wing will have more load then the others ". "Even though the difference is usually insignificant " it still exists .
Also in regard to my statement about when using a one wing cutter a slower feed rate not a faster feed rate can produce better results .
happy wood chipping dusty
And as I said the statement only one cutter can make contact first is obvious to the point of being ridiculous. Obviously the cutter closest to the wood will contact first, your statement that the other cutters do nothing more than chop up the chips from the first cutter is absolute BS. If your cutters are wearing more on one surface than the others maybe you should check the runout on you machine or the quality of the cutters you are using. Perhaps your sharpening service is sloppy and not grinding them evenly. I agree one cutter in a collar can cut wood accepably at the expense of feed rate, but at the same feed rate more cutters will give a better surface not just finer chips.
A hand saw with just one tooth will cut wood, a hand saw with two teeth will cut wood faster but not because the second tooth is making finer dust from the material cut by the first.
Cutters and teeth are designed with a gullet to get rid of chips not pass them along to get cut into smaller bits by the following teeth. In case you missed the insignificant part here is a definition.
in·sig·nif·i·cant View Image ( P ) Pronunciation Key (View ImagenView ImagesView Imageg-nView ImagefView ImageView Image-kView Imagent)adj.
Not significant, especially:
Lacking in importance; trivial.
Lacking power, position, or value; worthy of little regard.
Small in size or amount.
Having little or no meaning.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
If you noticed that much of a difference in the waer on the cutters then something is wrong with your set up. I know that Charles didnt mean that the kind misalignment you are talking about is the norm. As he said it is "insignifigant". I think I jumped the gun earlier by assuming you had more experience with these machines than I.
MikePardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Mike & dgreen , C'mon guy's don't hold back , really I can take it .
how good we are is how good we fix our mistakes
I try to hold back out of whatever little good taste I have left and the increasingly forlorn hope that you made a series of typos or we were speaking different languages and something got lost in the translation. I have had it up to here with people who don't bother to think through or research their strongly held beliefs before spreading them as gospel. I endeavor to speak only about that which I have knowlege and I admit I have zero tolerance for fools. I went to some effort to point out the fallacies in your statements and since you insist on calling black white, I am all done discussing this with you. I hope your redundant cutters keep doing a fine job of chopping up your waste.
Sincerely:
dgreen
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
d , For as long as history has been recorded wars and feuds have occurred simply because of different beliefs held by many . No matter which side of any important issue you may take even if the popular consensus is contrary to your own belief , there is always others who will protest .
To go to war or condemn others each time one is met with opposition will make for a life full of battles and adversity , and not much time for happiness .
Fortunately in this country it is not against the law to say what you think , not all countries are as free .
We have fought for our freedom of speech and have earned it .
It is also true that some people would not believe or even agree to the day of the week . Wouldn't it be a dull place even on this forum if we all only agreed and offered no other ideology , even if it may be less then accurate , help to teach and some may not admit it but we all can continue to learn .
regards dusty
hdgis1 ,
You have not said what your expectations or tasks will be , but for general duty and a multiple of variables I would suggest looking for a used U.S. made machine . I have purchased many for under $1000 . 2 - 3 hp or more will usually do most jobs .
If you are going to do a production run of a very large scale then by all means match the machine to the task . Consider a stock feeder .
Davis & Wells , Powermatic , Ritter , are great machines to name a few . Look in the yellow pages for woodworking machinery , used . Shops sell out and some upgrade and re tool . There are opportunities out there .
tell us more about what you want to do .
regards dusty
I'd look for a used Delta. The current model on their web site is 43-495X . It is like the Unisaw, in that they've been building essentially the same thing for about 40 years now -- mostly because it is a good solid machine. It is built like a tank, and a 10-year-old one is just as useful as a new one. Because it has been built for so many years, they are not uncommon on the used market. In my area, used ones are in the $700-900 range.
I just saw a couple of these online today at
http://www.bladesllc.com/WMachines3.html#W1701
There is a 2HP unit for about $840, and a 3HP unit for about $1150.
I can't comment on all the features, etc., but maybe this will serve as a starting point for your research.
I have a ORTON 7.5hp tilting spindle shaper (2500 lbs) for sale $ 800.00 made in Sanfansisco USA, does not include a fence, so if you are not located in the pacific northwest the shipping would make it prohibitive
Hi Viking,
Could you give me some more information on that shaper?
Thanks!
hdgis,
I bought a 1 1/2 hp jet shaper and while it was OK, on the really heavy duty jobs it would take two or three passes to hog away the material.. that meant I had two or three times the number of chances to screw things up..
A router was even worse! the really big hogging jobs that removed massive amounts of wood could take four or five passes and that many passes would invaribly dull the cutters so the work at the finish was never great.
I bought a 3 Hp Grizzly and wow! am I satisfied.. I can do these massive rasied panel cuts that remove mountians of wood and do it in one quick pass.. The cutters because they aren't turning 90 bizzilion RPM remain sharp thru project after project instead of forcing me to buy new router bits every project.
I have a small, buisy comercial shop. I still don't have a shaper and am not really in the market for one. I had a 3 horse Delta about a year and a half ago and sold it because I couldn't justify the tooling. A good router, lift and table does not require more passes than a shaper to raise a panel.
A versatile shaper needs at least 3 horse ,and 5 horse is a lot better, and it needs a large enough table to run moulding. When it comes to door making there is a huge overlap between a router and a shaper. The advantage of a shaper is what it can do that a router CAN NOT DO. For example using a power feeder, running large mouldings and making entry doors are things that are exclusive to the shapers domain. However most all of those things require a good 5 horses to do reasonably. A five horse unit is generally only $200 more than its 3 horse brother. Aslo remember that a good power feeder will cost more than $500.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
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