Like all of us, I have accumulated several items for sharpening. I wanted to get opinions on this one and if it’s really as good as it sounds I’ll get one know that they are on sale. Thanks for your comments.
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Replies
They are excellent stones. I have a 5000,8000,and a 16000. unlike the diamond stones, they need to be flattened very often. along with your purchase of a Shapton stone buy a larger flattening plate.
They are good. Lost Art Press has a book called Sharpen This that goes over sharpening. Shapton stones (the full ones not the ones of partial thickness on glass) are what is recommended.
The Shapton Pro 1000 is the best 1000 grit stone I have used. The Pro 5000 is crap - it will quickly load up and become glassy. The Pro 8000 is a good stone, but you are better off with the 12000. My preference is the Sigma 6000 and 13000 for the last latter two stones. Don't waste your money on the Shapton glass stones.
Regards from Perth, Derek
Can you elaborate on not wasting money on the glass stone version?
The glass backed ones have a relatively thin layer of stone on them and run out of material. At least that is what Lost Art Press has said in the various ask me anything (Open Wire) blog postings. Yet, Rob Cosman likes the glass backed ones. I don’t know the formal names of this. The ones I bought were the ones in the pastel colors and are the man made ceramics through and through.
Cosman's pitch is that it takes only 13 seconds to sharpen. I'm thinking the glass stones wouldn't wear down as quickly.
Maybe that’s why.
I have a few. I think they are over rated and over priced. I find myself going back to my old King stones when I sharpen.
800 to 1000 then 4000 for polishing.
I stopped using King stones about 25 years ago. The issue I have with King stones is that they are very soft and require constant flattening, unlike the much harder Shaptons and Sigmas. Further, King are best suited for more simple steels, such as O1 (such as used in vintage blades), and less appropriate for the more "modern" steels such as A2 and PM-V11.
Regards from Perth, Derek
I think Rob Cosman sells and uses the glass stones, the HR.
Should probably clarify to confuse our listeners and muddy the subject further: I think there are several Shaptons or at least there used to be. There's the Pro (ceramic?), glass HR and the HC, and some Japanese named stuff. Should we clarify which ones we are talking about.
I think the best thing is to pick some and just use them up. I like my 800/1200/6000 king set up quite a lot as I like the “feedback” of the softer stones.
But when Im mid project or on site I typically use a 1k and 8k shapton glass. They are fast, stay relatively flat for a few uses, take minimal storage space in a toolbox, and only need to be misted with water. I use a rough atoma diamond stone for flattening.
I haven’t read sharpen this or watched many sharpening vids by Cosman or Sellers, but they are all selling something and will argue till the end of time to get you to buy their content.
In my opinion, it doesn’t make a difference. Just get some sharpening stones and figure it out. And don’t buy new ones until the old ones are used up.
Revbob,
Yes, they must be gone over with a diamond lapping plate after each use and they are expensive.
I have had the 2000, 4000, 8000, and 16000 Shapton glass stones for several years. Also about 5 grades of the solid DMT diamond plates, two Chinese diamond plates, a King combination stone, and lots of other stuff.
I generally resharpen my edges of knives and chisels on a 1200 diamond plate, and then a 4000 or 8000 Shapton. Note that Rob Cosman uses a 16000 Shapton instead of a strop. The 16000 is usually expensive but I got it for $100 on sale. I use that or a leather strop with diamond paste/spray if I need a very sharp edge.
By no means do you need all this, I accumulated it learning. Diamond plates are the easiest to use, but only make an edge up to about 1200 in practice. Using Shaptons for the initial sharpening would lead to lots of wear.
The Shaptons are easily flattened on a coarse diamond plate. Just pencil a grid on the Shapton, and rub together under running water until the grid diasppears.
For nicks or major work, $120 4" belt sander. For flattening chisel and plane iron backs, I recommend buying ones that are already flat, or a Worksharp 3000. The end cost is about the same each way. I have spent hours flattening lesser chisels until I bought the Worksharp.
The person above who took 75 strokes on A2: On DMT plates, I can get a burr on s35V or even S110V pocket knives in 10-20 strokes. Don't understand why it would take that long. I would say my 1200 diamonds cut about as fast as similar waterstones, is not enough of a difference to notice.
There is a YouTube channel, "Outdoors55", who has a lot of information and reviews on stones that is pretty good.
Finally, if you are a sandpaper man, I recommend the Lee Valley diamond lapping film. I use that some for plane irons and its the fastest sharpening material I know of.
I’m the one who took 75 strokes. I use a honing guide and a jig to get constant projection of blade each time and know what a burr feels like. I measured in 25 stroke increments checking for the burr. I did ask Lie Nielsen about it and they had mentioned to me diamonds don’t work as well. At the time, money was tight, and these DMT plates were expensive so I continued to use them. I could get a sharp edge but it took a lot of strokes. Through a series of conversations, Chris Schwartz convinced me when I was getting up to 150 strokes over 7 years of use that the plates were likely wearing out. I really had a choice to make. Order new diamond stones or try the synthetic waterstones. The waterstones without a doubt give a burr much more quickly. I’m not a fan of flattening or the water mess. If.when I wear out the waterstones, I will need to make a decision on whether to get a new set of diamond or waterstones. If I decide to go back to diamond stones, I will swap out all my A2 for O1 steel.
Joe, if you wish to reduce the length of sharpening, then you must sharpen more frequently. That is, do not wait until the edge is really dull. That leaves a rounder, larger area to hone to a point.
Regards from Perth, Derek
Hi Derek,
I appreciate the advice but I do tend to sharpen frequently. My best conclusion is that A2 and diamond stones are not a good combo. Now with the water stones, I sharpen as frequently as I did when I was on the diamonds and the waterstones get to burr much more quickly. I really do appreciate the advice. At least in my hands, diamond stones don’t work well for A2 steel the Lie Nielsen uses.
I've never used an oil stone, a waterstone or a Shapton stone. DMT diamond served for a while but the use of 3M microgrit "papers" on float glass gave a better result, perhaps because the number of grits are so many, including the very fine, so one can always find the right grits for any sharpening or honing task or tool.
When I began using more complex edges - gouges, adze and the like, I needed sometimes to regrind. I eventually chose a Sorby Proedge which has many jigs to hold various tools and takes inexpensive belts from very rough to extremely fine, through many grades. It will first regrind then (with a swap of "sanding" belts) get the edge to 95%. A final hand strop on a very fine paste will hone the edges to perfek.
3M papers and a glass plate are inexpensive; and a Sorby Proedge price is not so bad (far less than a Tormek) yet very versatile and quick.
As Derek mentions, the trick to a fast return to sharpness is a microbevel - on plane blades, chisels and the like at least. Gouges, knives and similar, especially if they're of a low cutting angle (for green wood, for example) are best bought sharp then maintained "forever" with frequent honing. I've come to like diamond paste of three grades (finest 1 micron) on wood (shaped or flat) for that. It takes a minute to hone back a very sharp knife or gouge, generally using just one grit (6, 3 or 1 micron) depending on the tool and its task.
********
But for many, sharpening is a hobby of its own, requiring that every method and gubbins be got, tried then superseded. :-)
You sound like you are repeating advertising. Have you used Shaptons and compared them against other similar waterstones?
Regards from Perth, Derek
And while we're near the topic, what lapping plate/stone do you recommend that is reasonably priced (not $200+) for use on Shapton, Sigma and Norton stones?
Hi Derek,
I can’t compare against other waterstones but I can compare against diamond stones (Paul Sellers set up). If all I had was O1 steel, I would have stuck with diamond stones. However, I own a bunch of A2 steel. My A2 steel took 75 strokes to raise a burr and over a 7 year period that was getting up to 125 strokes for the A2 steel. When I went to Lie Nielsen shows, they were using a waterstone and in 10 or 20 strokes they were raising a burr on their waterstones. Blew me away at how quick the waterstones sharpened. However, I had invested the money in the diamond stones so I used them for 7ish years. O1 cut relatively fast but A2 didn’t. When I was looking to need to go beyond 125 strokes to raise a burr, I figured it was time to try something else. I then switched over to how Lost Art Press was advocating with the Shapton waterstones. On A2 steel, I can raise a burr with 10 to 25 strokes. They indeed cut faster. Having said that, they are messy compared to diamond stones. I’ve now been using the Shaptons for two years. Both the diamond and waterstones give me a similar level of sharpness based on use of the tools. If I were starting over again and buying tools, I would only get O1 steel and stick with diamonds mostly because I don’t like the mess of the waterstones or having to flatten them. If the mess and flattening them after sharpening about a dozen tools doesn’t bother you, then I think the waterstones are the way to go. From what I saw, the brand of waterstone Lie Nielsen sold seemed to work as good as the Shapton’s but I decided to follow what Chris Schwartz was recommending. I certainly wouldn’t abandon a system I had that was working till it was worn out as all sharpening systems work.
Have used them all, Shapton, Naniwa, Norton, etc. I finally got tired of continued maintenance and went back to "Float Glass" and lapping paper or 1000 diamond steel and the buffer. No more maintenance, just replacing paper occasionally using a buffer for final finish. I have found that the edges last longer as well. Small investment for great / consistent / predictable results. Sharpening has become a pleasure and easy now. The trouble with the ceramic or most stones is the wear and maintenance issue. You are creating defects in the surface as you use them therefore making it difficult to achieve consistent results. Think about the work it takes to get rid of unintended camber on your edges due to stone wear during the sharpening. Sharpening is an expensive journey both in time and cash. Good luck.
Hi Joe
I do not follow the recommendations of Chris Schwarz, Paul Sellers or Rob Cosman. I have been building furniture as long as any of them. Although I have done some experimenting over the years, I learned which are the good ones from a few trusted specialists, and their advice has stood the test of time.
The problem with sharpening threads on forums is that they all end up the same way - a million different methods and recommendations.
What is relevant ...
When deciding on a sharpening strategy, it is important to consider the type of steel you are sharpening. The softer steels, such as O1 (including laminated blades, even the Japanese with very hard cutting layers) can be honed on the full face of the bevel. However the harder and more abrasion-resistant steels, such as A2 and PM-V11, which also tend to be thicker blades, really need to be sharpened with a microbevel, since this reduces the amount of steel to abrade. The microbevel may either be a tiny secondary bevel or it may be a product of honing on the face of a hollow grind.
For those freehand honing directly on the hollow, as I do, the process is made quicker if the hollow is done well. The best hollows are those that leave very little steel to hone, that is, as close to the edge as possible, and creating an edge which is straight. A straight edge may not require a coarse stone (eg 1000 grit) to straighten it before moving to a middle stone (eg 6000 grit).
With a freshly hollow ground blade, where the hollow is full to the edge of the steel, it is possible to run through 1000/6000/13000 grits in 3-4 strokes each, and complete freehand sharpening in under 1 minute.
Regards from Perth, Derek
"And while we're near the topic, what lapping plate/stone do you recommend that is reasonably priced (not $200+) for use on Shapton, Sigma and Norton stones?"
Atoma 140 grit.
I was fortunate to purchase a Shapton diamond lapping plate as new at an estate sale for about a quarter price. Wonderful lapping plate. I used it for about 10 years until it was nearly done, and replaced it with the Atoma #140 grit. The Atoma is very flat, the diamonds are consistent and reliable. And kit costs a small fraction of the Shapton.
Regards from Perth, Derek
Thanks Derek for the info. I would love to get away with 3 to 4 strokes. I mentioned Sellers and Schwartz so was clear wasn’t just me coming up with something and both have lots of videos and blogs on their systems. As much as I dislike the mess of the Shapton stones, I will use them until they are worn out then decide what to do next.
what has helped me with the maintenance of waterstones is that I flatten them at the end of the day after using them rather than waiting to flatten them before I need to use them the next day. That little change helps in that the stones are ready to go and I don’t need to first flatten them.