Before I make any beading chisels for my lathe, I need to figure out how to sharpen the things. Where can i get different thickness circular stones with round edges?? 1/8″ up to 1/4″ thick.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
PlaneWood
Replies
Let's back up a step, even--where can one get stock for making one's own lathe tools? PlaneWood, have you got a supplier of HSS And how would one cut a groove on round stock, like for a gouge? Resources, gimmee resources! I'm drooling at the idea of making my own chisels. Fascinating topic, I never thought to ask...
Charlie
Charlie -
Here's one source: http://www.onlinemetals.com
several others out there.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
me again -
I have a gouge that I made from 1" wide by 1/8" thick A2. I have a steel block with a 3/4" groove in it. I heated the A2 then laid a 1/2" piece of rod on top of it, over the groove, then formed the A2 into the groove with a heavy ball hammer.
Would be easier if I had a large blacksmith's vise.
Making scrapers is easy. Just get A2 of the desired width (I suggest 3/16" thickness), grind to shape, grind a tang for the handle, then heat treat.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
Planewood,
The last time I heat treated was in 62" in metal shop.....still the same way?...heat to cherry red, douse...heat to straw color, douse...clean up
????????
Well, A2 is pretty forgiving. It is made to be air quinched. But......
For my lathe chisels, I heat to a dull orange for 1 minute then quinch in a half motor oil half paint thinner solution. This MUST be done outside in a deep metal bucket for obvious reasons! Have a piece of metal ready to slap over the container if necessary. I only heat the last 3", holding the other end with a pair of vice grips. To quench, I swirl the heated tip around in the solution. I have an acetelyne (sp) torch for the heating. Propane torches don't get hot enough. MAPP gas torches might - never used one.
This method gives me a harder steel than air quenching. But, it will also be more brittle. I find this ok for lathe chisels as they don't take heavy shock. Not ok for regular chisels (the kind intended to be hit with a hammer). First time I tried that I knocked a nice little chunk out of the sharpened edge. Air quinching is better there. To air quench I just wave it around in the air and do a 30 second war dance.
I can turn about 1 dozen cocobolo knobs with each sharpening of the chisel on my duplicator.
Now, there is a HIGH ART to heating/quinching, and I by far know little about all that. But, what I do works fine for me. What is it they say? Blessed are the ignorant??
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
I'd really like to agree with Mike, but I don't.
I don't believe A-2 is at all forgiving. Yes, you can end up with a proper hardness but what you loose is control of grain size. Obtaining a steel suitable for a high quality cutting edge requires a lot of control with A-2. Proper heat treating requires a long heat soak, in some atmosphere controlled environment, and then rapidly increasing temperature to a relatively high temperature for hardening steel. A-2 should be quenched in a blast of hot air where the volume and temperature of that air depends on the dimensions of the specific product being treated. I don't know of a way to do this without having two furnaces at a minimum and even then you'll never get the results of a staged atmosphere controlled furnace. The problem is that these furnaces aren't casual purchases and most end up housed in dedicated buildings. If you send a small piece to a professional tool shop that heat treats you need to make sure the batches they run are of items close to the size and dimensions of what you want treated.
You can buy HSS steel in its softened state but heat treating HSS is even more difficult than heat treating A-2. The good part is that you can buy properly heat treated HSS tool bits in a variety of sizes suitable for turning tools. You'll have to machine a holder because they won't be long enough but grinding the bits for shape isn't difficult. You should get a Material Safety Data Sheet when you order HSS bits and it's a good idea to read it. These exotic steels often contain heavy metals you wouldn't want in your lungs.
I think we've blunted our pick on this one before, haven't we??
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
Yes we have. Different opinions are what make this forum work. It leaves those who wonder about answers the option of doing a little research. I should suggest Machinery's Handbook the bible for machinists as a good place to start for anyone who wants to heat treat their own tool steel.
We don't disagree on much and that's also good. I enjoy occasionally encouraging people to look a little deeper into things like tool steel. Even if they never do it themselves, it'll help them properly maintain their tools.
Well, right now i don't have time for the research. I get a few bummers when making my own chisels. At $2 apiece, I can afford to throw a few away.
I had one piece of A2 that I used in my duplicator that really was a good piece. Then, all of a sudden, it started getting dull in 1/3 the amount of work. I reheated it and quinched but nothing I did would resurrect it. So, that one got pitched in a drawer. Probably turned over 1500 knobs with it. The one I have now is working fine.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
Mike,
I know you used to subscribe to the 'oldtools' mailing list. Two metallurgists there have been a big help to me over the years. I owe a lot to both Jim Walbridge and George Langford for their help. Between them, Ron Hock and Thomas Lie-Nielson; I've benefited from a lot of experience and knowledge. George Langford, particularly, cautions about coarse grain in A-2 without highly accurate heat treating facilities. One of the things I enjoy most is that the more knowledgeable and skilled people are, the more they seem willing to help. I could post everything I know in the different woodworking forums and still not repay the generosity I've been shown.
OK, back to the original question. Anyone know where one can find thin stones with round edges for sharpening beading chisels??
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
Mike
Have you considered turning a wooden rod of the right diameter and attaching abrasive paper?
Ian
Ian -
Yeah, tried that. Tried using a diamond bit in my Dremel too. Far to slow. The diamond bit is ok for honing, but I need something for the initial grinding.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
Mike,
I didn't realize you were looking for a rough shaping system. I do a lot of that and my solution was to modify a Belsaw Sharp-All machine. I removed the circular saw arm and machined a decent tool rest for the large side of the grinder. You can see the machine I'm talking about at http://www.saw-toolsharpening.com/Circular%20Saw%20Grinders.html . These things show up used and their main advantage is the narrow grinding wheels. I can grind down to a 1/16" radius groove. I also grind HSS tool bits with a woodworking cutting geometry that allow us to do a lot of things by machine that would otherwise have to be done by hand and we're able to work in increments of .001" the way we're set up now. The goal is to move a lot of repetitive production work from hand tools to machine and speed up our work flow but still keep the accuracy of hand work.
Yeah, I just want a circular stone for cutting the initial groove in beading chisels for various width beads. Once cut, I can hone them with my Dremel. And, I'm only talking 2 or 3 different sizes.
Austin, at MVP Sharpeners here in Houston, suggested (this morning) that I get a 1/8" thick stone with a square edge and dress a round edge on it. He said that the next time I came in he'd give me a box full of worn out ones. Heck of a deal!
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
Mike,
Just a thought: Instead of making umpteen beading chisels, why don't you learn to cut beads with a skew chisel. This has several advantages.
1. Better surface -- slicing instead of scraping cut.
2. You only need one tool, and you can cut several sizes of beads without putting the tool down.
3. It's faster for me; the actual cutting time might be too close to measure, but you don't have to go back and sand.
I use a skew chisel for all beads, some coves, tapers, and finish cutting any straight surface.. I saw a guy give a demo on roughing with a skew, but I don't do enough turning to have that down yet. He was really fast, though - faster than with a roughing gouge I think.
Michael R
Michael -
I've tried that and I screw up to many pieces!! Maybe my 'old' eyes?? With a beading scraper it's done in a second and will be exactly the size wanted.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
Mike,
The one book I have on woodturning is by Mike Darlow. It's called The Practice of Woodturning. In chapter 7 he has an excellent section on bead cutting. The whole book is very useful, I think. Sure improved my technique, and I thought I knew how to turn!
Offhand, I'd guess you are not cutting with the heel of the chisel, and not keeping the bevel in contact with the wood. Once you see how, it's really easy. A skew can be a little tricky for some things, but rolling beads isn't one of them.
Imagine, an hour or so with a book and some scrap, and you could be turning instead of making tools...........
FWIW,
Michael R
Try a saw sharpening company .They use thin white stones a lot or Norton who manufacture stones.I assume that you mean grinding not honing,that I would do on the top flat surface as the relief angle won't be much.Why not roll the beads with a skew or even a bedan? Unless the material has to be scraped.
Mike,
MSC industrial supply has about the biggest variety of slips and round stones. You can browse their catalog at http://www.mscdirect.com . It's a big catalog so allow some time or you can call them and they'll send you a catalog. The number is on their web site.
Larry -
I just called MSC and ordered a catalog. Thanks!
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
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