Hi All, I am a relative beginner wooderker, though I have taken a couple of classes in which I have learned basic oil-stone sharpening techniques. I am now in the process of setting up a shop in my basement and I need to invest in a sharpening system. I have considered water stones, but am a bit leery of them as I understand the stones needed to flattened frequently in addition to which I have been advised that if I’m not super careful I might end up with rusty blades (?) with a water based system. I like the oil based system ok, but i do find it requires a significant amount of time and is itself a bit messy. How about diamond-stone based system? Do many really use these? they seem like they could be a great alternative since no water or oil is involved. any general advice on what sytems and why anyone would recommend would be greatly appreciate. thanks! tony.
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Replies
Tony,
Welcome to Knots!
Based upon the kinds of questions you are asking about sharpening & hand planes, you may want to make your initial investment in a few books:
Sharpening:
"The Complete Guide to Sharpening" by Leonard Lee
"Taunton's Coplete Illustrated Guide to Sharpening" by Tom Lie-Nielsen
Hand Planes:
"The Handplane Book" by Garrett Hack
"Fifty Years a Planemaker & User" by Cecil Pierce
Good luck,
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
Tony, I like you thought that diamond stones would be a good way to go. I purchased a large 220 grit (black) extra coarse that I use for flattening waterstones. I also use it for initial honing. I also purchased the large DMT duo stone in coarse/fine configuration. Each of these stones cost around 100$. You will have to experiment for yourself and do some trial and error. I think diamond stones are not the total answer and relying on the coarse stone to try and "grind" down on the back of a tool in an attempt to flatten it may actually degrade the stone some. Its probably better to use the diamond stones selectively for certain tasks, babying them really , for use more as a reference surface for flattening water stones ( which remove material more quickly as a result of their softness (? what ?! I know this sounds strange but my experience has been that the soft,friable nature of the waterstone seems to float away material while the diamond stops cutting at some point...not sure why this is). By the way, I've found that the coarse stone will flatten an oilstone just like it does a waterstone, it just takes a little longer. I've experimented with using lubricants with the diamond stones to float away the metal. Using it dry with no lubricant may be the best. In conclusion I would just say that diamond stones will only be PART of your sharpening arsenal, not ALL of it. Good luck!
Hello Tony. I use water stones, and I would highly recommend them. I don't think that rust is a realistic issue, because your hands will get moisture on the plane and it's blade anyways, through your everyday contact and especially when you sweat. After each day I will wipe down my planes and chisels with camelia oil, and I will do this after I sharpen as well. Water stones are the fastest way to sharpen that I have tried and I am sure that it is because of there softness. I can sharpen a plane blade in about 1 minute and this is not really a fast time. Water stones do need to be flattened frequently but it is proportional to there speed in sharpening. Sharpen slower on a oil stone and flatten less. Personally I want to get back to the woodworking so I want my sharpening to be very fast, that is a main reason why I chose to go with waterstones. Hope this helps you. Peter
Tony...
I canna add to anything that Jazzdog and Peter have already said; excellent books / damn good waterstones and plenty of camilia oil... canna go far wrong with that...
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
camilia oil.. I use that fer after shave!
camilia oil.. I use that fer after shave!
Isn't that some girly tea for when your tummy has a bellyache? Gotta hand it to those Scots... :-)
Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
Edited 3/28/2005 10:02 am ET by mvac
Just what I do so take it with a grain of salt..
I have a granite stone.. About 9 X 12 X 2 inches thick. About 30 dollars. Just a A grade one.. Flat enough for most things. I think they have grade AA and AAA also (More $$$). Yep.. Made in China.. Geeeeee... I was using some float glass but found it scratched to easy.. Yes, you can also scratch granite but not as easy.
I use to use the sandpaper packs from Rockler. OK but I like the Diamond better.
I have the Larger Diamond stones from DMT.. I have three different grits. EXPENSIVE!
I found that the little cards (About 2X31/4) from DMT work just fine for most of my sharpening needs and WHOLE LOT cheaper than the big ones. (I 'think' they were about $12.00 or so each..) I have the Coarse, Fine, and Extra Fine cards attached to the granite with double sided tape..
I just use my guide (HAY! easier than trying to hold the blade at the same angle all the time) and run the chisel/plane blade down each card a few times.. And then go back to work.. I hardly use the sandpaper anymore.. If you want a really fine honing you would have room for some really fine grit wet/dry paper for the final honing.
I have a small block of wood as a guage to set the blade depth for the guide. I saw that tip someplace.. Maybe in the Knots...
Edited 3/25/2005 7:37 pm ET by Will George
After adopting and abandoning many different methods over a 30 year epriod, I have found the best to be diamond stones in progressive grits, in conjunction with a honing guide, this particular honing guide is inexpensive and will work with all traditional european chisels, but not the Japanese.
http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_details.cfm?offerings_id=2417&filter=honing%20guide.
Having said that, I frequently use a fine grit fryable wheel on grinder to touch up my chisels when I can get by with less than a razor sharp edge, it has the virtue of being fast.
http://www.garrettwade.com/jump.jsp?lGen=detail&itemID=101421&itemType=PRODUCT&iMainCat=0&iSubCat=0&iProductID=101421
fryable wheel ?? Gee is that like fried chicken wheels?
Well, sharpening . . . . .
I'm a bit of a sharpening nut . . . I think I learned it or picked up the hapbit from my grandfather who wanted to be able to shave with one chisel while he looked at his reflection in the bevel of another one. So, I've tried lots of systems . . . . diamond stones, water stones, sandpaper on glass/granite/plate, compounds on glass, granite/plate. I've been around the bend.
Having said all of that, I recently had a chance to buy the LV sharpening system. I like it - alot. It is well built, solid, well set up and accurate. It is simple enough that you don't need to have a degree to use it. You still need to have a good understanding of what sharpening is about but it will bring your sharpening results up quickly, and make them consistent. It will not replace all sharpening tasks so none of the above will leave my shop, however, for day to day, it covers 90% + of what I do and I spend more time with metal on wood than grit on metal.
The system isn't cheap so I realize it won't work for some. I did calculate though that my waterstone and diamondstone setups are each about half of the cost of the LV . . .. just to put it in perspective.
I think I learned it or picked up the hapbit from my grandfather who wanted to beat my butt with a leather razor strap! I think it had a rough and smooth side dependin' on how bad he thought I was!
thanks for all the helpful advice. are you talking about the electric sharpening system that runs $295? it looks interesting, if it really works well maybe that's the best way to go, certainly looks easy. i would still need a grinder though, right? thx. tony.
Tony:I don't think you'll need a grinder. The two lowest grits in the system are great for lapping the backs of chisels and blades. I've done very little work with a grinder, period, as I find it is too easy to heat up the blade too much or remove more material than I needed to.Just to fill in a piece, you'll still need some sort of system for lapping plane bottoms etc . . . . right now I tend to use sandpaper on steel plate, adhered with spray on removable adhesive. So far, I've been happy with it.mark
Mark, thanks. I'll give lee valley a call today and get further information. when you say lapping backs and bottoms, are you referring to the backs in both cases? what is the bottom of a plane plade, as distinct from a back? not sure i follow what bottom i need to lap with sand paper, stone etc, that i can't lap with with the lv low-grit disks? thx, tony.
Tony:Occasionally, you'll find a plane that isn't flat on the actual bottom of the plane body. It isn't common but you might find it with less expensive planes. In such a case the plane body needs to be lapped. If it isn't flat and you have a concavity or convexity across the plane bottom, then the nicely sharpened and flat plane iron will not be flat to the body . . . leading to inefficent and inaccurate work.The Handplane Book mentioned in one of the other posts (?jazzdog) is a good idea if you are interested in getting the most out of your handplanes.Hope this helpsmark
Hi Mark -- I sopke with LeeValley today and am strongly leaning towards getting their sharpening system (so thanks much for drawing my attention to it). I do have one question about it that confuses me. It would seem to me that since the blade is being sharpened by placing it on a revolving disk, then effectively the part of the blade closest to the center of the disk would get sharpened much less rapidly then the part of the blade closest to the circumference of the disk, which effectively would have a much higher rpm. this would result in an unevenly sharpened blade. of course, this must not be the case, but i don't understand why -- have you ever experienced or thought about this effect? what am i missing? thanks, tony.
I did have the LV product and the problem you describe was very noticeable and real to me. Yes, you could try to deal with it by pressing harder on the inside edge and/or alternate sides of the spinning disc, but this led to imprecise and non-repeatable results, not to mention a plane blade that was a bit wavy across its width. Personally, I wouldn't buy this or any other similar system.
Doesn't anybody use the "scarry sharp" system (PSA sadpaper on plate glass)? I don't know if he invented the system, but I first saw it described in an article by Michael Dunbar.I quit using my Arkansas stones after I tried this technique. But then I got a Tormek, and haven't used anything but since then. I like it because it is simple, fast, and pretty much idiot-proof.
You don't even need psa sandpaper. Any water resistant sandpaper and 3M's "77" spray adhesive and you are good to go. The adhesive will give up about the time the sandpaper is shot (remove excess adhesive with paint thinner).I've recovered block planes on this setup and sharpened chisels with it.
I love it. It's a larger surface (almost half a sheet of paper) and I sit the glass right in a "cookie sheet" partially filled with water.I use extra heavy glass (the kind used for shelves).The best thing is that you don't have to worry about dishing.Ironic, but I even flattened my Norton waterstone on the plate glass :-)Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
So with the tormek, can you do all your sharpening on that tool and never need to use stones for final honing or anything? and it gets blades as sharp as the scarry sharp system? thx. tony.
Re: TormekI think so; in fact you have the water stone, and right next to it a leather wheel for final honing. Remember how the barbers of old used to give that straight razor a couple of passes with the leather strop? Same principle. However, if you have a serious nick on a chisel, for instance, the Tormek would take forever. In that case I get rid of the nick on a conventional 8" grinder with a friable stone wheel. Then on to the Tormek.You can get a jig for sharpening just about anything -- scissors, turning tools, planer blades, knives, and of course, chisels and plane irons.
Like Nikkiwood, I have a Tormek. For plane blades and chisels, I use it only as a terrific water-cooled grinding wheel that leaves a tiny hollow grind. I then hone by hand on 1,000 and 8,000 grit waterstones. Once I'm finished grinding on the Tormek, the waterstone honing takes less than a minute. As Nikkiwood says, the Tormek comes with a leather wheel for final honing but I haven't used that part yet since I already owned the waterstones and they produce such a fine edge so quickly.
I bought the Tormek after trying and returning the Lee Valley contraption. All I was really looking for was a better grinding wheel, and the Tormek certainly is that. It also has all kinds of jigs for turning tools and household items, which I expect to acquire over time.
The edge produced by the Tormek is very good, but can still be improved by a light fine honing. I don't regard it as a final treatment.
Tom
"Doesn't anybody use the "scarry sharp" system (PSA sadpaper on plate glass)?"
Nah, only in an emergency nikkiwood. I was shown that old dodge, or something like it, back in the early 1970's by an old fart of a cabinetmaker that had learnt it from another old fart of a cabinetmaker when I stupidly left my sharpening stone in the workshop whilst I was out on an installation.
I've never had much time for that stop-gap (sic) method of sharpening since, ha, ha--- ha, ha, ha. I've even been known to approximately sharpen up a chisel or two on a handy and smooth-ish concrete step in really desperate moments. Slainte.RJFurniture
Damn Sgian! I've been draggin my blades behind my pickup on the concrete streets!
:')
I use a circular stone for the rough shaping and squaring up, then 600 grit, 1000 grit, and lastly 1500 grit. After that I strop it on a piece of belly leather impregnated with jewelers rouge. I guess some would call me lazy, but this seems to work for me.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
I have tried most of the sharpening systems that do not rely on a wheel or other motor driven abrasive, including waterstones, diamonds stones, and the so-called scary sharp technique with sandpaper. Here's what i do:
I start the sharpening prcess with 220 aluminum oxide wetordry paper spray glued with Dupont 77 on a granite reference plate (from Woodcraft). Use a guide...Veritas is very reliable. Go through 320 grit, 400, 800, and finish with 1500 grit. These papers are available at auto parts stores since they are commonly used for auto body work. At this pont you have about $35. invested in the granite, paper, and spray glue. You need nothing else, but I go a step or two further. I strop all of my blades on a leather hand strop with jewelers rouge (Woodcraft). This is what delivers the scary sharpness.
I sometimes use water stones after the series of papers, but you have to keep them flat. By the way, I have found the flattening the stones with diamond stones wears the metal faces of the stones quickly, ruining them. Use the sandpaper method to flatten your stones.
I have not found that diamond stonesdeliver a really good edge. In my opinion they are best used for sharpening shears, bits, tools, etc, but not chisels and plane irons.
I hope my experience is of some use to you. Read Thomas Lie-Neilsen's book on sharpening for a really comprehensive overview of the subject.
Quartesawn wrote: "I have found the flattening the stones with diamond stones wears the metal faces of the stones quickly, ruining them."
I am assuming that you are also including the diamond aspect of the surface as well(?). Is so: Oh God say it ain't so!!! I thought that perhaps it was my imagination, but it really did seem as though my DMT diamond stone was less aggresive than it ought to be (the instructions say/warn that one should expect that the stone will lose some of its initial 'sharpness', so I just chalked it up to that). I thought that, counterintuitive as it may be, using a diamond stone in this fashion, was one of the 'legitimate' ways that it could be used ... can anyone speak authoritatively on the subject? I can't be the only one to whom this concerns?!
TIA,
Peter T.
I've got all the sharpening systems but I like to admire my reflection in the polished mirror flat of a scrub plane iron while smoking a reflective briar pipe and contemplating the question of "how sharp is truly sharp" for a while before actually using my tools to make anything, which is why Skiin' doobie's scraping on the concrete porch steps wouldn't work for me. Seriously, I have tried them all and have come down to this system:Sampler pack of PSA paper from http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com (5 grit sizes - 40 microns to 0.3 microns) - around $15
5 12 by 12 inch smooth marble tiles from Lowe's - around $15
A quart of cutting oil (several years worth) made from 50% kerosine and 50% mineral oil - around $10
Leather strop from old guitar strap - value unknownSharp plane blades, spokeshave blades, chisels, and carving tools - PricelessThis system is somewhat portable but you gotta lug around those tiles.Good luck, Ed
Hi Ed,
While my search hasn't been exhaustive, I haven't been able to locate any really flat tiles anywhere. Are these "smooth marble tiles from Lowe's" really flat (you know- +/- .001" or so)?
Thanks.
-Peter T.
Heck if I know how flat they are, Peter, I lost my micrometer and slide rule - but I still have my plastic pocket protector. They're, you know,...flat,...like a piece of glass. When I put a 8 x 11 piece of PSA film on a 12 X 12 piece of tile, it's like I have a big honkin' stone that lasts for about two or three months. It's more or less portable so I can carry it to any of my three workbenches, including the outdoor one, and it's heavy enough to stay where you put it while you're pushing a chisel or plane blade around on it. As long as my tools get sharp enough to shave hairs off my arm without me feeling it, they're sharp enough. I recently worked through Chris Pye's "Lettercarving in Wood: A Practical Course" (very good book) using tools sharpened frequently with this system. Good luck, Ed
Check your local glass shop, ask about used ¼-inch plate glass. They salvage it from broken shop windows.I haven't put a Starrett straight edge across one, but it's flat enough to sharpen with.Leon Jester
Glass is only flat if you lay it on something flat. Ever push on a window in your house, or accidently lock the keys in your car and bend the window out a bit?
Glass is only flat if you lay it on something flat. Ever push on a window in your house, or accidently lock the keys in your car and bend the window out a bit?
******************Yes to one, no to two. I'll point out that DS window glass is <0.09375 thick as a rule. Plate glass is 0.250 and some is 0.375. That said, I put mine on either my bench or my table saw when I use it.I'm fairly relaxed about sharp. If it shaves, it cuts wood. If it doesn't shave, it's likely to cut me. I figure that if it worked for Hepplewhite and Duncan Phife, it will work for me, I'd love to be as good a woodworker as they were.Regards,Leon Jester
Pete, I have not used the black diamond stone (since I dont't have one), only the finer grades, but I will no longer use them to flatten waterstones. Look at it this way: if a water stone will put an edge on A-@ tool steel quickly, how long do you think the nickel plated steel on your diamond stone will last? The steel is what hold the diamond particles....no steel, no diamonds. When you are sharpening steel on a diamond stone most of the contact is with the diamons, When you flatten a waterstone with diamond stone, the slurry gets everywhere on that diamond stone surface, thus eroding it. This is all just my theory...I have no proof, other than my diamond stones seem to have suffered greatly from flattening waterstones. I'm sticking to sandpaper on granite to flatten my stones.
By the way, I have heard that DMT recommends kerosene as a lube on their diamond stones rather than water.
Count me as one of those who found out the hard way that a diamond stone is not a great way to flatten waterstones. After just a few flattenings, the diamond stone was more or less kaput. Now it's wet-and-dry sandpaper to flatten the stones. And the stone does a number on the sandpaper real fast.
hello Q/s,
Your last sentence is what interests me: when I bought my DMT plate more than several years ago the instructions were to use either dry or with water- none of these appealed, especially the water, so I use kerosene (paraffin) and still do.
Now that I am up to speed on this post I would like to add that I have a large number of stones of all descriptions- water , oil, Japanese, Greek (yes Greek), man-made, bequeathed from GranPop, Arkansas,Wichita u name it- they are all consigned to their boxes in their own place out of the way in a cabinet made for interesting things you like but know you will never throw away. That Diamond plate sits under bench top within easy reach, because it is used every day- but not for long .
For me "sharp" is when you can shave arm hair in any direction (if you advocate this test), and you get this very quickly with a decent diamond plate, which also lasts for ever, so in the long run is not an expensive tool. Still not happy? then you can get "double Sharp" by a few strokes on that rouge / burnishing compound impregnated leather strop. I believe it impractical to go for anything sharper as after the first cut or so the edge will revert to "double sharp".
For quick results , ease and consistency of use and over all cost benefits the diamond plate wins every time and I almost forgot , it is the only thing for tungsten and you can dress your planer knives between grinds..... And it will sharpen that exotic skinning knife made of some fancy stainless steel which seems impossible to sharpen with any of those above mentioned stones.
If I didn't know better I would be tempted to have a spare in case it wore out, but hell it doesn't even do that!
Are you referring to the DMT diamond stone, and if so, what grit (color)? I agree simple is better
Yes, I am referring to the DMT stone/plate. It is the red one which is 600 grit if I am not mistaken. Size is 8" X 2.5".
If I saw a green one which is 1200 grit I might be tempted .... but only if it works FAST, like the red one!
Although only 8 inches long it is enough to use an Eclipse honing guide- am unashamed to say that I have been using that for 40 years.
Cheers
thanks for the info -- are you referring to what dmt cals the "duosharp" product (which has circular pattern diamond charged metal plate over some sort of plastic, i believe) or the "diasharp" product, which is actually a full diamond charged metal plate. i have been told that the latter, ie the metal plates, are actually intentionally not flat but are slightly concave which supposedly lessens edge marks on the wood from the cutting tool. obviously one could not use long knives on a tool like that, only plane blades and i suppose chisels. the duosharp, on the other hand, is supposedly dead flat (and more costly).
Hi Tony,
I am referring to the duosharp product from DMT.
I had assumed that you were at the honing stage i.e you had already ground your primary bevel (usually 25 degrees) and you were ready to hone /sharpen- and I believe through experience that the DMT is the way to go. Referring to UBC's post where he says to buy a grinder- equipped with the right stone and a modified tool post this is a quick and easy way, but I now virtually only use my bench grinder for grinding the profiles on shaper cutters.I used to make hunting knives and made up a belt grinder for this - but I also found that there is nothing to beat one of these for versatility and speed of removal of metal when required.Again referring to UBC's avocation of the Norton stone- he has missed the point- it is not FAST, and why all that rigmarole with figure of 8's etc and fear of rounding over? I you use that Eclipse honing guide it is quick and easy, again.
I would like to refer you to a good book on this subject: "Sharpening- the complete guide" by Jim Kingshot. Isbn#0946819483, first published in 1994. He is an English craftsman of the highest standard and you will see that he now favours diamond tool technology....and he likes good results FAST and EASY (even though he is an old -timer)
I have always felt that being able to have correctly ground and sharpened tools easily at hand to be crucial to getting good results in woodworking and Jim Kingshot's book is most helpful to beginners and old salts alike.
One final thing- Kingshot just loves that Eclipse honing guide....
I have been labouring these points, only because as i have said , sharpening is crucial- hope this helps.
Tony:An interesting question and, quite frankly, one I havn't thought of or experienced. I'm interested to see the other responses . . . you might ask LV if there have been any concerns, I find them pretty up front about their product.mark
As mentioned elsewhere on this forum,there is the Tormec sharpening system.
The stone is interesting,it can be changed from 400 to 1000 grit.
I have read here that some use 6000 grit,thought I would see if I could shave my arm with plane iron after sharpening with 1000 grit,no problem,now why would you want it sharper.
Sorry if I am missing the point,am apt to do so:-)
Tony,
I don't pretend to know near as much as most of the folks on this thread (So I'm a lot like you in that regard).
I've never heard anyone complain about the Tormek, but $600+ seems a lot for a sharpening system to me. That said, over time, the cost of your stones would likely exceed that. (And I have to admit, I have Tormek-envy...)
Assuming you didn't go with an electric system, waterstones are, IMHO, the way to go. And don't worry about rust, as long as you care for the blade properly and keep it dry.
I tried the Scary Sharp system, and found myself tearing up the higher-grit sandpapers. I suppose it's possible I could get better results with SC powder... Still, I use the float glass and sandpaper to flatten my waterstones.
Although there's some debate about this, most folks I know advocate sharpening frequently, meaning every 40-60 strokes. I may be off by +/-10, but the point is if you're doing a lot of planing or chiseling with the same blade, you should be doing a lot of sharpening as well. Don't let this scare you, btw - Once properly honed, re-sharpening an edge takes a minute or so. Also, you'll want to flatten your waterstones every 40-50 strokes.
Anyway, I like waterstones because they're constantly revealing new abrasive as they wear, and that's what keeps your tool sharp - fresh cutting surfaces.
Just my $0.02,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
I too like my waterstone but I'm puzzled as to why you keep tearing your sand paper.WHen using the scary method, I cut on the pull stroke. My chisels and planer blades are mounted in a lee-valley blade holder (holds the angle nicely).Paper is glued to the glass with 3M "77" spray adhesive.Good quality, waterproof sandpaper (the kind body shops use - it's black - my local Ace hardware has a great selection of grits).Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Mark,
"I too like my waterstone but I'm puzzled as to why you keep tearing your sand paper. WHen using the scary method, I cut on the pull stroke. My chisels and planer blades are mounted in a lee-valley blade holder (holds the angle nicely)."
I think you hit the nail on the head - I was going to and fro, instead of just cutting on the pull stroke. I also use the Veritas holder and the same adhesive, so pushing is clearly the culprit.
All of that said, having finally found a process that I'm comfortable with and that actually produces the results I intend to produce, I'll stick with the waterstones for now. Thanks, though, for clearing that up.
Regards,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
And I have to admit, I have Tormek-envy..
ME TOO!.. I look at it often and then I think of my credit card!
Just my two cents...
...myself tearing up the higher-grit sandpapers..
I only PULL my blade on the finer grits.. NEVER push..
"Just my two cents...
...myself tearing up the higher-grit sandpapers..
I only PULL my blade on the finer grits.. NEVER push.."
Yeah, well thanks, Will! I'm pretty sure I know that NOW! ;-)Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
SORRYabout my'stick' in your eye... I was just funnin; ya!
Ah, Will,
Were that the sharpest stick, I'd be a happier man...
No problem - I'd hoped my little emoticon thingy - the winking guy - would convey that my response was in jest.
Unfortunately, I've much more to be concerned and saddened about. My dog, Sam, died today.
My sister went on a climb in the Himalayas, and we haven't heard from her in three days. She was supposed to have contacted us by Wednesday at the latest.
While testing out the new PC brad nailer I bought, I caught the edge of my left thumb. Luckily, it was through-and-through.
Finally, it looks as though Lucy, one of our three cats, may have to lose her left hind leg after having been hit by a car two days ago.
So don't worry about the sticks. Let's just hope my sister's OK and that Lucy's leg can be saved.
Regards,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
APRIL FOOLS!!!
No dog and no sister. My nailer's a Grizzly - thumb's fine, thanks - and Lucy lost her leg just before we adopted her 5 years ago, and still manages to kick the pants off our two younger male cats! Gotcha.
Have fun,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
I have 3 different diamond stones (3" x 8"). The diamond is impregnated on one side of 1/4" thick steel plate. On the backs I have glued 3 different grits of silicon wet/dry paper. The diamond is for rough cutting and the w/d paper is for the scary sharp method.
However, that said, I use a 10" stone on my lathe running at 350 rpm for the rough sharpening of my plane blades.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
PlaneWood
I have used both oil and water stones over the years, but have been completely won over by Mike Dunbar's system of using sandpaper glued to float glass. This way, the surface you hone on is 24"X4". Each side of the glass holds two different grits of a 1/3 size sheet of sandpaper. If you order the sandpaper from Klingspor it costs about $.25 per whole sheet and you can get grits right up to 5000, or higher. Use Elmer's aerosol adhesive to stick the paper to the glass. Garrett Wade sells the glass.
The big advantages , in order of importance are:
The large size of the surface
No need to ever flatten
Speedy change time as you go up the grits
No liquid needed
It takes awhile to get the hang of it, but I have not touched my water and oil stones since I have figured this out.
Hans
Hi Tony,
Good advice so far. I've used "Scary sharp" (wetordry sandpaper), Japanese waterstones and diamond stones..the latter being my favorite..in fact, I need to put my waterstones on E-Bay!
Other than Leonard Lee's book on sharpening, the master furniture guy that taught me..and whose practice involved hand tools for EVERYTHING but wood prep...jointing/planing, kept the DMT stones by his bench and would frequently swipe the chisel or plane iron across the diamond stone a couple of times...no jig or anything....he taught me that sharpening your chisels and plane irons isn't "an event" but rather an ongoing, never-ending process.
With his method, it would be hard to use oilstones/waterstones or anything that required anything more than the stone itself.....
Good luck!
lp
Tony, I use and like DMT diamond "stones". I use them with water, and don't worry about rust. Wipe afterwords( a good rule in many situations). I usually finish with fine ceramic.
Tom
I'm no expert but I think the first question to ask is what kind of woodworking are you planning to do. If your only going to do flat work, furniture and things like that you might want to consider a Tormac. Expensive but no more than investing a few hundred in sharpening stones and jigs. If your going to be a turner you need to consider a bench grinder and maybe the One-Way sharpening system called the Wolverine which sells for $90 at Woodcraft. I hope that this helps
I think I read in an earlier post to this thread that MVAC was suggesting sharpening his plane iron after every 40 to 60 strokes ..... or was I misreading it? If that's right, he needs some new steel in my book. I've put 6 to 8 hours of continuous surfacing of walnut and cherry on a Bedrock 4 1/2 factory iron (1907-1910 vintage), swaping to a spare Marples iron, same vintage, for the second day. Sharpened both (simple touch-up) on the AM of the third day, using a lilly-white Arkansas stone & kerosene .... took 3 or four minutes total, then it was back to work!
The message I'm getting is that most of you are wasting a lot of iron. If I can't get an shaving edge up in a couple of minutes, I find another blade. And one should never pay for 1/4" plate glass .... every glass & mirror shop I've ever walked into was glad to help me haul out all the pieces I wanted free of charge. Most will cut it into managable/usable pieces for a dollar or two ... cash ... hand to hand, if you get my drift.
And don't laugh about Sgain working an edge up on a concrete step or sidewalk, had to do it several times myself .... and actually, it's not that far removed from that sandpaper you're glueing down to that expensive piece of plate glass you paid for, then paid to have shipped to you.
John
If you can't get a shaving edge in a couple of minutes you find another blade? , sounds like you are wasting a lot of good iron. Peter
Edited 3/29/2005 4:51 pm ET by Peter36
If you can't get a shaving edge in a couple of minutes you find another blade? , sounds like you are wasting a lot of good iron.
Meaning ..... If I can't get an edge in short order, I retire the iron, 'cause its too soft, and dig out another to fit!
John
John,
"I think I read in an earlier post to this thread that MVAC was suggesting sharpening his plane iron after every 40 to 60 strokes ..... or was I misreading it?"
I could have been way off on the # of strokes before re-sharpening the steel - anyone have Leonard Lee's book or a Charlesworth/Cosman article handy?Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
Hello once again Mitch. I have several articles by David Charlesworth and Rob Cosman. I have spoken personally with both of them and neither one of them feels there is any number of strokes before you need to sharpen. It varies with depth of cut, type of wood, direction of cut, amount of skew, initial sharpness of blade, type of steel, etc. Peter
Peter,
"Hello once again Mitch. I have several articles by David Charlesworth and Rob Cosman. I have spoken personally with both of them and neither one of them feels there is any number of strokes before you need to sharpen. It varies with depth of cut, type of wood, direction of cut, amount of skew, initial sharpness of blade, type of steel, etc. Peter"
Hello again - I hope all's well. Thanks for the correction. I must have been thinking about Charlesworth's insistence on re-flattening the stones every 40-50 strokes. And now that you mention it, I do recall at least a couple of people - not sure who - saying that they know it's time to re-sharpen simply when their blades start to become less effective.
I appreciate your clearing that up for me, as well as for the gentleman I was giving incorrect advice to.
Regards,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
John, interested in your comments on this since it sounds like you have a lot of experience:A "crossing the Rubican" moment for me in my sharpening philosophy was realizing that I didn't have to polish the entire bevel every time. All I have to do is work on the secondary bevel, making it quick and easy and more fun. I can bring tools with very hard steel, like Two Cherries chisels, to razor sharp in just a few minutes. I don't know why I spent so long thinking I had to work on the entire bevel every time. Working freehand and just sharpening/ polishing the secondary bevel makes the process quick, easy, and fun, and it's such a joy to have razor sharp tools! Take care, have a good day, Ed
Your experience mirrors mine. Retouch only the working edge, until the secondary becomes large enough to require reduction (heavy-coarse honing or grinding the primary bevel). Works equally well on planer & jointer knives as it does plane irons and chisels. When I apprenticed to my grandfather 45 years ago, sharpening dominated the first month of benchwork. I watched him sharpen all his workers (dull) handsaws, plane-irons and chisels before they came into the shop each morning .... 'cause he couldn't stand the thought of paying them to maintain their tools instead of turning out the work before them! It was the least appreciated part of the learning experience, but, ultimately it was the most useful and most enabling task one could have learned.
Your mention of "freehand" in a discussion of sharpening could get me going for hours if it wasn't so late! Marketing gurus today know all too well .... design a new jig and they shall beat a path to your door to buy it. Everyone can develop the art of sharpening .... just practice, practice, et al.
John
John,
See post 50 on this thread for the correct info from Peter, who's spoken to two of the acknowledged experts in the field. I was incorrect in saying there was some benchmark # of strokes for re-sharpening. It's pretty much when you notice your blade becoming dull or less effective. Sorry for the misinformation.
Best regards,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
Actually, I don't think you were far off. Although I'm not questioning Tailsorpins, I don't think I'd go nearly as long as he does without sharpening. You could do it I suppose, but pushing the plane along would get harder and harder and the cut would be rougher and rougher. As a wild guess I'd say that a half hour of planing on hardwood would dull the iron sufficiently to make it worthwhile to spend two minutes re-sharpening. Not the whole bevel, but half a dozen strokes freehand on the 1,000 grit stone - enough to raise a wire edge - and a few more on the 8,000 grit stone, then touch up the back just enough to remove the wire edge, and you're back in business. To each his own.
In his sharpening video, Charlesworth advocates re-sharpening frequently, for what it's worth.
I think we're on the same page. My error was in suggesting that there was a "target" number of strokes after which one should re-sharpen. It's a "wild guess" because so many variables are involved - wood type, thickness removed, technique, edge or face planing, yada yada yada.
Still, the main message as you point out is to sharpen frequently, whatever your chosen method.Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
You wrote:
I was incorrect in saying there was some benchmark # of strokes for re-sharpening.....
No problem .... I assumed you were reciting your experience with rapidly dulling plane blades.
john
Tails,
I read once (somewhere) that the Japanese temple carpenters would stop to sharpen after EVERY stroke. (Must have been getting paid by the hour!) It's a Zen thing; you know, the journey, not the destination. Me I'm more of a destination kinda guy.
I tend to sharpen a little while after I think it's necessary. Sooner with abrasive woods like some mahogany, less often with walnut, less still with poplar. I like a hollow grind, and oilstones, but that's just the way I was taught.
Cheers,
Ray
I read once (somewhere) that the Japanese temple carpenters would stop to sharpen after EVERY stroke. (Must have been getting paid by the hour!) It's a Zen thing; you know, the journey, not the destination. Me I'm more of a destination kinda guy.
I had a great laugh with those words,thanks joiner.
Tony,
I have tried numerous sharpening systems and methods, and it all boils down to what it is that you're looking for. Each system has it's pros and cons, and no one system will do everything. I've tried Arkansas stones, water stones, a Delta water bath sharpening center, and Diamond stones, and have the following advice:
Synthetic water stones - Norton is the best - in a range of grits will give you an incredible finish on chisels, plane irons, scraping planes, etc. I have never had an issue with rust, and it's takes a fair amount of sharpening before you have to flatten the stones. Using a variety of 800/2000/4000/8000 will give you everything you need. Also, it is very important to have a good honing guide.
There was an article in Fine Woodworking on this very topic in February 2000.
Good Luck
don't waste your time and $ buying fancy gizmos sharpening stations. get a benchtop grinder and a combination oil stone, that's it. you could shave with my chisels. if interested mail back and i'll send info going thru the steps to sharpen chisels and plane irons.
brian
thanks for the offer -- i'd love to hear your sharpening steps, do please tell! thx. tony.
buy a grinder. i got a delt benchtop model at home depot for like $60. throw out the tool rest that they give you and make your own out of plywood. basically you want about a 2 3/4" - 3 1/2" piece that will support chisels or plane irons. i bevel that piece at 25 degrees. the bevel lets you put the rest right up close to the grinding wheel. move chisel or plane iron back and forth across the wheel to get a rough bevel.
when you have it ground all the way across then you can square it up. do this by checking with a combination square ( you want the side of your chisel to be at 90 degrees to the front edge).
once square your ready to hone. get a combination oilstone. Norton has em for around $40. before its first use submerge the oilstone completely in motoroil for 48 hours - this seals the stone keeping it from being cloged.
add a few drops of oil to the stone and place it on your workbench, wd-40 also will work. using a figure-eight pattern lap the back side of the chisel to remove the burr created from the grinding wheel.
next using the same fig-8 pattern lap the beveled side. set chisel on stone, find the bevel, and make 1 (ONE) fig-8, stop reset and make another pass. why only one pass? if you set the chisel on the stone and just go to town making fig-8's you WILL round over the bevel. (this set by the way is done on the orange side of the stone, the grey side is coaser).
after several passes you'll feel a burr on the back of the chisel. DO NOT break off the burr. lap the back, flip it over, lap the bevel. repeat this until you wear away that wire edge.
at this point you can do some damage.
if you want em to shave hairs buy a Hard Black Arkansaw oil stone. soak it in oil like the combination stone and use the same process of lapping - start with the bevel side til U get a burr on the back then lap the back, the bevel, the back, the bevel...U get the idea.
don't waste your $ buying fancy contraptions to sharpen your tools. this method will get em sharp enough to shave your arm hair which is plenty for any task.
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