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I’ve been working on my plane blades, trying to get them in shape. I have a course dmt diamond stone, 1000, 6000, and 8000 grit waterstones. My Stanley #5 required almost 4 hrs to flatten the back on the diamond stone; my Lie-Nielsen took 15 minutes. When those blades came off the diamond stone, they were shiny enough to show reflections. After moving to the 1000 grit waterstone, however, they become a dull but smooth grey, with no visible scratches. After moving through my three waterstones, i can’t get them to that polished mirror finish that people recommend. Tried the same thing with a chisel, the only shine i could achieve was on the micro-bevel. Am i not spending enough time on the waterstones? After a plane back is flat, how long should it take to get the good shine? Thanks in advance.
Regards,
kevin
Replies
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Kevin,
i ...almost 4 hrs to flatten the back on the diamond stone; my Lie-Nielsen took 15 minutes.
Yeah, Stanley has harder irons....hehehehe.
Frankly, if you've gone down to 8000 grit, call it quits and use the darn things, no one will be able to tell the difference any who....
Dano
*Hi Kevin,Only the last 1/8" or so of the back needs to be mirror flat.... on the rest of the back minor scratches will still allow the blade to seat properly. I find the quickest way to get a good edge is to grind the angle on a white stone, then move to the waterstones with a sharpening jig. Helps a lot to have all the stones at the same level so you don't have to readjust the blade in your jig. After grinding the only metal you have to remove is at the top and bottom of the grinded arc and a stroke or two on the back.I check by shaving my arm, if you can not feel a tug as it cuts the hair, you are done... Total time after everything is set up, maybe ten minutes..... Check out the "scary sharp article", can't remember which issue but a great system....
*Kevin,This whole flatness problem is why I eventually went away from waterstones. With all respect to the many waterstone and oilstone users, many who I'm sure sharpen better than I do, it is vital for sharpening media to be flat, and stones that wear simply don't qualify. I have the sore muscles and curvy blades to prove it. Over the years my sharpening has migrated to exclusively flat media; my sharpening time to has gone down significantly and the results are much improved. Here are the methods that work well for me at this point:-- Flattening the back is tedious work. You don't want to mess around with clogged media, including diamond stones. You want fresh sandpaper. This process is only done once for each blade, so wasting a little sandpaper isn't a serious loss. I start with PSA paper roll stock laid onto a granite tile. Changing the blade's travel angle with each succeeding grit makes it easy to tell when all marks from the previous grit are gone. My PSA roll stock stops at 320 grit. Below that I use spray adhesive to apply wet/dry paper to the granite. I go down through 2000. Around 1000 the results start to become truly mirror-like. Make sure you bear on the blade properly and move smoothly to keep the back very flat.-- Honing is different; paper maintenance time and costs are less attractive on this daily basis. After putting on a good hollow grind (whenever the micobevel gets too wide), I go to the 600 grit diamond stone to put on a thin microbevel and make squareness adjustments. I then smooth the bevel a bit at a 1200 diamond stone. Lastly, I finish at 2500 grit wet/dry paper stuck to the granite. Adhere the wet/dry paper well, and take very light even strokes to reduce dubbing. I go back and forth from the bevel to the back as the last step. Lately I've also been experimenting with stropping the bevel. Do not strop the back - nothing should touch the back after the initial flattening except the 2500 paper.I have many other tips and thoughts, but just wanted to suggest that you use something other than the diamonds and waterstones.Take Care, Dave
*Stanley has harder irons?? Shurly you jest! Or, was that being said 'tongue-in-cheek'? I have made some blades using A2 tool steel that are much harder than my Stanley blades and chisels. A few laps on a stone can give you a feel for the relative hardness. While I don't know the Rc, I do know that newer Stanley blades are relatively soft compared to most tool steels. Some of my older Stanley blades are fairly hard though.I had one plane blade that had a bad low spot on the back that was about the size of a quarter and right in the center bottom of the blade. I tried my diamond laps and thought - "no way". So, with the intent of remedying the problem, and with a thought to the possibility of destroying the blade, I used double sticky tape to stick it to a flat board. I then ran the last 1" of the back of the blade back and forth under my drum sander. That certainly remedied the problem and polishing the back was then much easier.I hone to 1500 grit then strop a few times on leather. That's sharp enough for me.Does anyone else resharpen exacto knife blades? I quit buying those suckers in favor of just resharpening.
*> "it is vital for sharpening media to be flat, and [water]stones that wear simply don't qualify"Tell that to a Japanese master craftsman. It's true that sharpening media, regardless of composition, needs to be flat. So keep your waterstones flat. It's simple to do. Some people use a master stone that's course and dead flat itself to touchup their other stones, some people use a glass plate with wet/dry sandpaper stuck to it. These methods work.Best,SethPS. Mike, resharpening Xacto blades . . . now I've heard everything! Wow - go man, go!
*When you get tired from trying to flatten a resistant plane's sole, get out your mill file and work with it a while. It cuts faster than the other things. When you get into the ball park, lay the file aside and use the more conventional methods.William
*Seth,"it is vital for sharpening media to be flat, and [water]stones that wear simply don't qualify"No question about it, that is purely a personal opinion. It's based on actual experience though. I've spent a good amount of time using waterstones, diamond stones, ceramics, and sandpaper on granite. My nightime woodworker status has probably kept me from developing the requisite skills. I have wrestled with timing and methods for keeping the waterstones flat, and get better results with media that stay flat.Everyone finds their own path through the journey that is woodworking. Having limited time, I have to choose my battles. Design is more important to me than technique, so I focus on that.Regards,Dave
*Thanks for the replies so far; i keep my waterstones flat with wet/dry paper on glass. That takes no time at all, i've found. My question remains, what am i not doing or doing incorrctly to prevent me from attaining the mirror finish?Thanks,kevin
*Kevin, oh yea, that was the question wasn't it? Sorry to sidetrack. I was never able to get anywhere near the level of polish with waterstones that I get with sandpaper on granite. I never got more than a foggy mirror, though that may have been partly because my finest waterstone is a 6000. Part of the problem might be that the grading systems are not directly comparable. I've seen a web page that compares grits across different media. If memory serves, a given sandpaper number is much finer than the same waterstone number. You have little to lose by trying sandpaper for this task. Drop by an auto parts store, pick up a $5 combo pack of sandpaper (1 sheet of each grit through 150 or 2000), get a 12 x 12 granite tile from Home Depot for $5 - $10, grab a can of 3M 77, and give it a whirl. I would be interested in hearing your impressions afterward. I know that I won't ever try flattening a back on stones again. Best, Dave
*Kevin,Thanks for keeping us focused (did you i reallyexpect an answer right off the block?). Others have stated many good points. Don't worry about the reflective quality of plane soles. If you manage to get the sole consistent at the 1000 grit level you're a better man than most.Regarding mirror on blades and chisels. You can get this with 6000/8000 grit waterstones, but don't strive for the whole length of the blade's back. I get a couple of inches down to 1200 when they're new and then go town on the last 1/2 inch or so with 8000. That doesn't mean the remaining part of the back doesn't touch the stone - it does. I just concentrate the greatest pressure on the tip area.About the tip - I don't hollow grind my blades (expect for turning tools) nor use a jig, but others have great success with these methods.I find that body position is very important. I stand with the stones just below the height of where my elbows are. I hold the blade in both hands with my index and maybe middle finger on the blade and move back and forth with my legs, not my arms (ok, maybe if I'm tired I'll move my arms a bit). This permits me to keep the angle just so while exerting good pressure.To be honest, I like a mirror surface too, but the most important thing to me is the cut (like others have commented with their bald forearms!) It's those last few molecules on two perfect planes that matter. The rest of the blade, ferrule, handle and such is just there to support those intersecting planes.I hope this is of help, regardless of what kind of stone you use.Best,Seth
*Does resharpening Xacto blades give an indication of how cheap I am?? My ancestors came from Scotland!
*If you want to actually SEE the value of finer and finer grits put the edge of the blade under a kid's microscope. You will have to use a flashlight from above to see it. I did this between each grit once and was facinated with how much of a difference each grit made. -- Ok, facinated....maybe I have a boring life but as long as I'm having fun I'm happy
*i "as long as I'm having fun I'm happy"Fair point Will, but in my case I'm more concerned with production, and I really don't give a fig for how it looks under a microscope. I have no interest in shiny mirror bright, my planes don't all have perfectly flat soles, and my irons are just so, so, but put me in a race to getting back to work effectively, and I'll have disassembled it, sharpened it, reassembled it and be back planing timber before all the mirror bright fanatics have even got their sharpening systems organised. And anyway, as I've said before in this forum, the first touch of the wood with the iron is the first step towards blunt, and when I'm planing in earnest I sharpen every 10-15 minutes. It takes about 2-5 minutes, usually to sharpen a couple or three planes that I use in tandem, and back to work. What my plane doesn't take care of, the scraper will, and beyond that their's abrasive papers, random orbit sanders, panel sanders, polishing, delivery, sending out the bill, and getting paid. Slainte, RJ.
*Sgian,I hope to end up where you are someday. For now putting mirror finishes on my blades is mostly to acquire the skills for when they are needed. There have been particularly tough and tender grain situations that I believe justified the extra effort. Most situations don't, though, and I suppose the point in my journey will eventually be to sharpen just barely as well as I need to for each situation.Two instances where sharpness makes a difference come to mind right away. Chiseling across grain I have noticed crushing in tender woods like Makore unless the tool is quite sharp. Low angle block planes seem particularly appreciative of a really sharp edge. Without it they tear out horribly, worse than a bench plane. With a sharp edge they do things a bench plane cannot.Your point about sharpening often is well taken. I need to step back to the final stone more often than I do.Regards,Dave
*Go to your local Ace hardware. Buy a cheap-ass two faced oil stone. Flatten the back of the blade. Then run it over two stones of moderately finer grit. I use a washita and a soft Arkansa.Then use the darn thing. That is really all you have to do.8000 grit! You aren't polishing diamonds. If you are planing a really hard wood like walnut you are going to have to repeatthe whole process in a half hour or so anyway.It is easy to get entirely too carried away with this cult of sharpening.Frank
*Well Sgian you are quite a man and I can tell that you are very proud of yourself as I am sure you should be. Perhaps discussions of looking at one's tool under a microscope hit a little bit too close to home for you.Just to reduce any confusion I was not suggesting that one include a microscope in their production environment, I was simply passing on an interesting experience.Will
*Evidently touched a nerve there Will, which isn't a surprise. No, I'm not at all proud of a normal cabinetmaking skill learnt over many years. It's just a job that has to be done to make furniture so as to pay the bills. And I admit that I don't i "see" any particular value under a microscope in the result of using 1,000, 5,000 or 8,000 grit or whatever to sharpen a chisel or plane iron as you suggested- I only see value in how an iron cuts timber, and for how long, and how long it takes to resharpen to get back to working. Slainte, RJ.
*Frank hit the nail on the head; i sharpening cult...To each his own I say. If some would rather make slurry than shavings, so be it. Gads, and I thought I was obsessive going down to 1500 grit silicon to hone...Liked your comment about tool's under microscopes though, Will. Thanks for the grin.b :-)Dano
*Mike, I carry a small stone with me in my pocket for exacto knife blades and the like. No sense in changing them when a quick swipe or two will put them back in service quickly. Yeah O.K. I only have one blade and I'm cheap.
*I use the Xacto blades to cut masking tape and resharpening is faster than finding a new blade (in my shop).
*Something happened yesterday I thought would be relavent here. I do a great deal of spokeshave and drawknife work, and have found I have to keep them to a ridiculous point of sharpness to achieve the shapes I'm after - except for one of my spokeshaves, a concave little number that I use for the clean up passes - it's a bear to sharpen the small concave blade, and it always gives me a clean cut, so I'm lazy with it, just stropping occasionally.Well, yesterday I finally broke out the pipe with the proper diameter and the wet/dry. It had been a long time, and it took me nearly an hour to go through the grits, using the adhesive and alcohol to remove each grit, etc...But when I went back to the work, I saw something I had forgotten about this particular tool - when properly sharpened, I can get a final surface (as in straight to finish, no abrasives) both with the grain or against it! No exaggeration, it will plane perfectly clean directly against the grain. If you've ever tried to round a particularly ornery chair part over a crazy curve, you know that this is a HUGE timesaving issue. Otherwise, there are times when I have to switch directions every inch or so. It can be maddening, and difficult on the shavehorse...SB
*Here's an amusing read about scary sharp -http://www.shavings.net/SCARY.HTM#original
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