I realize that I am opening a can of worms here by asking this, but here goes:
I just finished sharpening an old set of wood chisels that my dad had. I couldn’t afford any of the diamond stones, so I tried the scary sharp method by cutting some pieces of sandpaper and using spray adhesive to stick them to a large marble slab. The chisels were in pretty poor condition so I started with a 220 grit then went up through 400, 600, 1200, 1500, and finally 2000 grit paper. Lastly I stopped on an old leather belt I had. I used a honing/sharpening guide to maintain the proper angle and used Leonard Lee’s book as a guide for setting the bevels and sharpening angles. I got an extremely sharp edge (the cut on my finger is healing nicely thank-you) and easily cut through a piece of paper with the chisels when I was finished. However, here is the question:
I would like to, at some point, invest in some sharpening stones and/or diamond stones. In looking at what is for sale, it appears that most stones come in sets of three (coarse, medium, fine) or there are two-sided stones with “coarse” and “fine” sides. Is sharpening my tools through six subsequent grits and then stropping overkill? Do most of you just use two grits, three grits, ??? Do you have a “collection” of stones with different grits? The scary sharp method worked really well for me, but it seems like having the stones would be easier than the setup, constant replacement, and longterm expense of buying and using more and more sandpaper. Finally, are the Arkansas stones really all they’re cracked up to be?
Replies
I don't think what you're doing is overkill. Actually it's about the same as I use. In my mind, 6 grits is actually better than 3. This is because the grit sizes are closer so the coarser scratches do not take as long to remove. This let's you proceed from grit to grit faster than using fewer grits. I've never used Arkansas stones so I can' comment on them.
Jay,
People get awfully passionate about this. I try to be pragmatic- some might say sloppy.
I just use oil stones. Coarse, ####, soft ark and black ark and then strop with green. I can usually cut hair with it. No matter how sharp you get it, it will dull again.
My 2 cents
Frank
Hey Jay,
When I firsted started out, I bought a whole bunch of stones and diamond plates.
Now I just use sandpaper spray adhesiv'ed to a granite tile, to a point. At the top end, I use two yellow (or gold) Japanese water stones. I think they are both 4,000 grit. One I keep as is, the other I use Lee Valley's green polishing "rouge" stick on it.
I get a mirror polish from that rouge on the stone.
The diamond plates and grittier jap stones, and one ceramic stone sit in a tupperware tub up high on a closet shelf.
I do use a bevel/honing guide too.
I just think your money could be better spent on other things.
One of these days, I'll get a boot repair shop to glue a piece of leather to a plywood disc. Then I'll put a hex headed bolt "axle" through the center of that. Chuck in the drill press at a slow speed. Load it up with the same green polishing compound and then I'll have a motorized strop.
Chills
CHILLS,Buy a tube of BARGE CEMENT (or, just contact cement) and scuff up the back (hairy side) of the leather.
Apply cement as in formica : (glue both surfaces,
let dry till no longer tacky,
apply the leather and pound it down with a mallet If you attach a 5/16" tee nut to the center hole of ply FIRST and recess it's flange flush to the leather side of the wood,you'll eliminate any 'bumps'.
As far as an arbor is concerned, cut thr head off a 3" 5/16-18 machine screw , add two nuts and run this 'short shaft' into the tee nut from the back. Then tighten up the two 'jam nuts' and "you're in business" Get the bolt type which it's thread does not run all the way to the head. (leaves a smooth end for the drill chuck) Stein metzEdited 7/21/2005 10:13 pm ET by steinmetz
Edited 7/24/2005 12:28 pm ET by steinmetz
I bought one of those leather wheels from woodworkers supply and it is terrific. Just chuck it in the drill press and polish away.
papa
I use a 1000 and a 8000 grit Norton waterstone.
For my own part, if the blade produces crisp, clean cuts, it's sharp enough- If not, I sharpen it- If I want a mirror I have one in the bathroom-
Well put, Dave I use a silicone carbide paper with a self stick back, about 600 grit. fastenen to a perfectly flat ceramic hone stone. couple strops on the silicone carbide and then sone honing on the ceramic. If that edge shaves my arm hair or catches on my thumb nail ...its sharp. Id rather create with wood then get over board with sharpening schemes and isnt that the idea here, to create good stuff and not get overwhelmed with the process?Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
<<< "...isnt that the idea here, to create good stuff and not get overwhelmed with the process?.. " >>>
I suspect you're right, though I'm not all that sure of anything any more- I try not to take life too seriously, since it's only temporary anyway- If it's broke, fix it, if it's not, get on with it-
mike ---
The popwer compant has engineers who will answer all of your questions.
They will also give you a drawing of one possible method for the service connection.
They will appreciate it if you get the required permits.
G'day Jay,
I personally use the norton 1000/8000 combination stone from Lie-Nielsen for routine sharpening - flattening the stone frequently (about every 20-30 strokes) against a course eze-lap diamond bench stone - you could use 400grit paper on a flat surface. Use some type of magnification to inspect the bezel and face of the chisel. I have an arkansas surgical black and love it and get just as good an edge as the 8000grit but it just takes longer -the main reason I don't use it routinely is the fact of having to clean the chisel (and me) of oil afterwards. I then finish with diamond paste on a scrap of flat hardwood - this is mainly so I can check the flattness of the face with the reflection of a fluoro tube.For reconditioning chisels like you did I run through a range of waterstones. Personally I don't like the 'scary sharp' method as I have had problems with the leading edge of the face getting slightly rounded -I think you get the paper in advance of the chisel forms a 'pressure wave' and rises up.
I have also got that tormek system and all I use it for is the roughing out work -regrinding a bezel etc - but finish by hand.
If you get a waterstone get something like camelia oil to protect the chisel.
Hope this helps.
Which grit I start with all depends on the condition of the chisel. I've started as low as 100g for some really nasty ones. And I will spend the time going through all the grits when I first get a tool or need to clean up some bad nicks. But for just retouching the edge on a chisel that's already been rehabilitated I normally only use 4 grits - 600 wet-dry then these 3 micro-abrasive papers from LV
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=33004&cat=1,43072
They're a bit pricey, but already have peel and stick adhesive on them, and are on a really tough film that hold up to use better than paper backing.
The last 2 of these grits I really consider as a substitute for stropping, so technically I'm only re-sharpening with the first two.
It normally only takes about 5 mins per chisel/plane blade to retouch. I've got some good waterstones and a couple of diamond plates but have found the scary method just as good and IMHO less work. I'd rather avoid the extra hassle and time of flattening/cleaning/soaking the stones and just work on the tools. I've got a couple of the honing guides that I've used with the waterstones, but don't use them with the SS method. I think it's easier to avoid paper bunching problems by holding the blade perpendicular to your body and holding the bevel face flat on the glass while moving back and forth, than parallel to your body in a honing guide.
Just my 2 cents.
Waddaya mean it wont fit through the door?
Jay, it is, in my opinion, awfully easy to get very hung up on sharpening and working your way through endlessly finer grits to achieve the perfect, flawless, immaculately honed cutting edge.
This level of pernickitiness is fine for many woodworkers, but on the whole it doesn't work much for me.
Regarding most wood cutting operations a chisel or plane blade in decent condition, i.e., no nicks, etc., given a few strokes on something like an 800 grit ceramic stone (or equivalent grade in any other sharpening system) works pretty well. It's not super sharp, but sharp enough, and only takes about 30- 60 seconds of time and you move on.
As a working type of furniture guy rather than a hobbiest, good enough is often more than sharp enough. I'm what you might call a 'Sharp'n'Go type of woodworker.
There are times when it pays to go to the extra effort of a second grit which in my case is about a 4000 grit ceramic stone followed by a bit of stropping on the palm of the hand to finish the job off.
For others the mystique of sharpening matters more than the cutting and working of the wood. Different strokes for different folks, but sharpening for me is just a necessary function of being a working furniture maker, and not an end itself-- sharpening for me doesn't pay any bills, whereas delivered furniture items do. Slainte.
RJFurniture
You could easily make do with what you have. If you like the idea of honing with stones you can keep your glass/granite around and do rough grinding with 60 grit sandpaper and of course do the fine honing with your stones.
For the love of Mike, don't end up with umpteen sharpening systems. If you buy stones you can nix all the fine grit sandpaper. If you have a grinder you can get rid of the sandpaper system altogether (assuming you buy some fine stones). Or you can simply keep your sandpaper setup in perpetuity. It works fine and if you are into woodworking the cost of sandpaper is the last thing you need to worry about or will end up worrying about.
Edited 7/22/2005 9:08 pm ET by cstan
I use a diamond stone, grit size unknown. Appears to be about 1000 to 2000.This is not the DMT type with diamond chips. My stone is bonded to a steel plate and looks like an arkansas stone. I can hone an edge that will cut the hair on the top of my wrist with this single stone. This is the stone I take to jobsites. I have arkansas stones, which I use with water instead of oil, they are made for oil but work just fine with water. Also have a couple of waterstones,4000 and 8000 grit. I use these in the shop with the arkansas stones.
If you haven't bought the stones yet, I would buy one diamond stone in the 1000 grit or a little finer.You can get away with just this one stone for almost anything.
mike
Jay,
Millions of ways to skin a cat, this is what I do, based on being as time productive as I can.
Chisels: lathe, carving, bench....
1.) Start with a grey grinding wheel on a bench grinder, turning at 1,200 rpm.
2.) Finish on a wet grinder, turning at 70 rpm. For lathe chisels, I stop here.
3.) Hone on a paper buffing wheel, using white compound, turning at 3000 rpm. (Same bench grinder)
After (3), it takes a loooong time before I have to go back to (2)
Plane irons:
1.) Main bevel on the same wet grinder, using a jig.
2.) 1st micro bevel with a 1000 water stone, using a Veritas Jig.
3.) 2nd micro bevel with a 4000 water stone.
4.) 3rd micro bevel with a 8000 water stone.
I have tried abrasive papers, but it takes much longer and I have experimented with just about everything else. For me this is the fastest way.
Jay,
You could do worse than not re- read what Sgian Dhub, Willie and Cstan have said.
It's your call. If you want to make a big thing about sharpening then there are boundless opportunities, and you will have to re-align your sleeping habits. You could also master the finer points of the Scary Sharp,er, procedure and then for a good laugh go to this:http://www.shavings.net/SCARYhtm.
I see nothing wrong with decent stones and quality diamond plates for honing and a suitably equipped bench grinder for initial grind/profile.
What you want is a smooth sharp edge, obtained in as little time and effort as possible?
Just me... When I used stones I never went over 1000 grit.. I never had to...
Folks may grip at me about this but I found if I went much over that it never held 'that' edge more than a few 'whacks'...
I would just try to shave the end grain of some pine.. If it 'cut' and not 'crunched'..
I stopped there...
I now use my new TORMEK.. I love it!
By the way... I hardly ever use carving tools (just sometimes) so what you need there may be a totally different story...
Wow. Thanks for everyone's response. This gives me a good idea of options to explore. For now, the scary sharp method is going to have to do because I have too many other things I have to purchase before investing in expensive stones or grinders, but I think I would definitely like to explore some of the other sharpening methods described by the rest of you.
I don't neccesarily want to spend days on end sharpening my tools, but I do find it somewhat relaxing and satisfying. I am not a pro furniture maker so I can afford to spend more time honing and less time building if I want.
The key to oilstones is to realize that a quick honing is a hassle as the oil can get spread around onto project parts that might be lying about. I use oilstones but for quick honings I strop my edges on leather charged with rouge. I set aside time in the morning to do any honing that needs to be done with the stones and I do this before I drag project parts out. Sandpaper can be equally messy as the silicon carbide dust gets all over your fingertips and is somewhat difficult to get off I've found.
For me, the oilstones make sense. With any method, remember not to let the edge get 'too far gone' before a regular honing. Your life will be much easier and re-grinds less frequent.
I don't care for waterstone sharpening for two reasons: the stones have to be flattened regularly usually necessitating the need to own another system to keep the stones flat, either sandpaper on glass, diamond stones, or something along those lines. Seems like needless redundancy to me. If you buy sandpaper and a flat surface to maintain the waterstones then why bother with the waterstones at all since you have a system that will work in its own right.
Secondly, I don't care for dealing with the water bath needed to use/store waterstones.
Jay,
I've gone over to the Sharpton ceramic stones because they are the fast and real easy to service. I throw a few drops of water (from a glass) on them and lightly sharpen/hone and finish up with a quick strop on leather with green rouge(I'd use the plam of my hand but my hands are 50,000 grit)...when the stone dries I blow away the metal dust... Ironically, I find it best and easiest to do it free hand moving the chisel/blade in skew direction.
Edited 7/25/2005 6:29 pm ET by BG
I have a question about Sharpton ceramic stones:
Are they a kind of waterstone, or are they ceramic? In other words, do they ever need flattening?
thanks,
Dan
Cajun,
I think you don't need water but it does help to keep the stone clean. I use a few drops from a water glass applied with my fingers.
There is a brief video on the Woodcraft site..search: sharpton or Ceramic
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