Okay, so I’ve gotta sharpen my chisels. Checked out Lee Valley and they’ve a basic sharpening set consisting of a honing guide, angle jig and an 8x2x1 inch 1000x/4000x combination stone. It’s brand name is “Veritas Sharpening System” know anything about it?
The stone sounds OK for maintenance, but I should probably get stones rated simply ‘coarse’ and ‘fine’ for the times when a more aggressive approach is required? Shop space is at a premium, so small pieces fit better. Some sharpening setups sound like they take up serious space.
Also, there’s a book by Loenard Lee published by our very own Taunton Press, at the risk of being banned from the site, is it any good?
And another thing (sorry, but you told me it’s okay to ask), I don’t mind spending money when I need to, but I think it would be good pratice to build a sharpening jig. Time I have lots of, money’s another story. I’m looking at about $130.00cdn for the Lee Valley kit & book. The book is an obvious must, as are stones and I’m guessing a reasonable waterstone to be $50-$75. That means the jigs cost me $30. Can I realistically build a jig for that?
That’s probably enough for now. Thanks ahead or your time and help.
P.S. – I picked Lee Valley because I understand they’re a quality place. Is it true?
Replies
Get yourself some 1/2 plate glass ,sheets of wet and dry silicone carbide paper some spraymount ,angle gauge .Read about Mike Dunbars sharpening methods and learn to hold a chisel at a constant angle.The whole lot will only cost about 20 bucks.You will learn patience and skill and not spend your life maintaining waterstones looking for the quintessential edge on the perfectly tempered chisel ( both of which you are unlikly to find ) when you could be cutting dovetails and working wood.IMHO don't succomb to the tool and die making mindset and loose sight of the goal- woodwork!
15Broad,
Get Leonard Lee's book on sharpening. As in all fields, everyone doesn't agree on everything, so there are a few minor points here and there with which some may quibble, but this is one of the must-haves.
Other must-haves:
"Understanding Wood" by Bruce Hoadley
Fine Woodworking on Joinery, Taunton
Practical Design Solutions and Strategies, Taunton
Any book by Tage Frid,
Any of James Krenov's books
Any articles by Ian Kirby
Others are sure to chime in here with their recommendations.
VL
Lee's book is great. You'll get use out of that book for years to come - it's packed with info.
If you're like many of us, you may bounce around amongst sharpening systems for a few years until you find what you like - sandpaper on glass, PSA film on ceramic tile, diamond paste on MDF, waterstones, oilstones, leather strop, polishing compounds, Tormek system - lot of options out there. Different people like different stuff. I'm pretty settled on freehanding sandpaper on glass because its quick, easy, cheap, but I have waterstones I sometimes use, as well as diamond paste, and a leather strop made from a guitar strap.
Good luck.
As always, many thanks to all! That's why I come here for advice - it's real world. Paper and glass it is. I think I have the emery cloth numbers here somewhere, but it's something like 150-300 for regrinding, 420-600 for fine grind, 800-1000 for almost final hone, then a 4000-6000 'till you see your face in it? The process is outlined in one of my books. My main concern was to remain faithful to the 35/25 angles in the event I have to regrind a chisel, but it's probably in the book. Oh, I forgot to say that the emery paper starts after any necessary power grinding has taken place and would continue thru the duration of the project as needed. The trick, I think, will be knowing when to perform the appropriate operation, and for how long. Not steep, but slow...Like good Red Wine!!
Speaking of books. Thanks for the list VL, but I've already got it. Daily it grows like a fine crop. I've posted interest in used copies of the Hoadley and Flexner titles (they top my list), but Christmas is again upon us, so I wait. In the meantime, I hope you all don't mind answering my questions. Your advice is taken with immeasurable appreciation.
One more thing. As I'm very anxious to begin, but very leery of causing more harm than good, I'd like to get the absolute necessities to hone these chisels. If the book tops the list then I'll wait, but I have the process outlined in a book and have access to a few posts here and related links. Is there any reason why I shouldn't give it a shot?
Thanks again. Happy Non-Demoninational Seasonal Solstice Holiday Interval!!!
P.S.- VL, might you know of someone who may or may not be known as "Goldhiller"?
Edited 12/15/2003 11:59:30 PM ET by 15Broad
15 Broad,
No. Never heard of a Goldhiller.
Get a honing guide and start getting your tools in shape. Either the Veritas or Eclipse. I like the Eclipse. Make a little jig of a wood block with dowels set in it to easily set the blade in the jig at the correct overhang to generate the grinding, honing angles. With the Veritas, a single setting suffices because it has a variable height adjustment on the roller to get the micobevel angle. On the Eclipse one either resets the blade (a second dowel stop), or puts a credit card under the roller.
You seem to know the general idea. Get going. Then when you get the Lee book, a lot of the information will make more sense.
VL
Goldhiller lives over at BT
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
Happy Non-Denominational Seasonal Solstice Holiday Interval!!!
That's so PC I could vomit! Excellent. Of course, that still doesn't cover the "don't tell me what to do" variety of curmudgeons like myself. Perhaps prefacing it with a simple "if you wish..." may be more inclusive. Ha.
Re. sharpening. Suggest you practice on some cheap tools, and should you not quite get the hang of it, don't hesitate to use a honing guide. I use one for everything but my smallest chisels and don't apologize for it.
Not sure you need to use anything beyond 2K or 3K grit; in fact, you'll probably find that even at 1K you can smoothly shave the hair off your arms. Good luck, and happy or unhappy whatever the season is or isn't.
Jeff
15 broad, Goldhiller writes posts on another w w forum called Ask This Old House usually in the catogories wood working/windows and doors/ basic wood work etc etc. Stein. A k a, steelhelmit (same forum)
I have been through about all the sharpening methods except the Tormek (too expensive for my pocketbook). I used the Veritas guides but found them totally useless on the short bladed Japanese chisels; then I made a jig at the suggestion of a Japanese Woodworker staff. However, when I asked a number of pros, they said they never used a guide but sharpened chisels "freehand". I tried it and now do all my chisels without a guide. I admit it took some time and practice to get it even and to be able to hold the correct angle but finally it worked. I used to intersperse different grits of sandpaper or stones so that I could see where I was "grinding" off material, and thereby, adjust my angles. I suggest trying the freehand method with an older cheaper chisel to get the "hang" of it and gradually you will realize that you can hold the angles by hand. Someone on this forum suggested a website (a UK website?) that described this method very well ( I must have deleted it) but if you check the archives you may benefit from it as I did. Good luck!
I started out with the same setup. It works and it's high quality. First, read the Lee sharpening book; lots of good information.
The honing guide is very fussy to setup but if you have never sharpened chisels before a guide is a really good idea. As you do more and more sharpening you will eventually be able to do it without the guide. The main purpose of the angle jig (as I see it) is to support the chisel so you can lock down the honing guide so it is aligned with the blade.
The 1000/4000 stone is really all you need to get started, but this assumes the chisel is pretty sharp when it's ready to be sharpened (does that make sense)? If the chisel end looks like a toothing plane blade you need to use a 100 or 220 grit stone, or a grinder. The 4000 side of the stone will give a mirror edge and it's good enough for most work but eventually you'll want a 6000 or maybe an 8000 to get a super edge.
Zounds! I'd say thanks, but that doesn't express it. Judging from the feedback 25/35 seems fairly sacred, so I'll pick up the jig. Fortunately I do have another set of chisels on which to hone my technique. That time the pun was intended. As I said, the book is obvious, so I'll work on it.
Just to check a few things, I start with the face to flatten it. I then grind the main bevel to 35 degrees - down to the finest grit, the 25 degree secondary bevel is then ground to a width of about 1/32" and finely polished. The face is then reground to a mirror finish followed by a few passes on the secondary and maybe a kiss on the face for luck. Sound right?
If I'm using a jig, I have no choice but straight forward and backward strokes, so I'd think to exert the gentle pressure needed mainly on the forward srtoke. Would this technique be the same for freehanding? Also, is the face machined in a circular motion or dragged fore and aft on the stone? The latter sounds like it would chip the stone easily, but what do I know.
Anyhow, I've some tools to buy and books to find so I'll have to get going.
If you so desire, take the opportunity to buy your wife a small bouquet of flowers because it's the last Tuesday of the week. You won't regret it.
15, ALWAYS push the cutting edge into the stone and lift on the back stroke( knives chisels scissors etc)
the only time you 'Draw' the tool away from the edge, is once or twice at the finish to remove the fine 'Whisker'(Both sides)
Good to have a flat piece of oak tanned leather glued to a board smooth side up and a stick of jeweler's rouge (Sears)
Rub the rouge into the smooth face of the leather occasionally
To polish and strop to a razor's edge, always strop(both sides) lightly and pull toward you.
Stein.
Edited 12/16/2003 10:08:19 AM ET by steinmetz
One hesitates to contradict a guy with Stein's experience, but... :) When I'm sharpening chisels and plane irons, I don't lift the edge on the back stroke. I do reduce the pressure, and that may be enough to serve the purpose. I'd have to retrain my hand to actually lift the bevel off the stone. I'm happy with the results I get. But then I've never compared my edges with Stein's, so I could be all wet.
A leather strop may be the cat's meow. I've never tried one. I polish my chisels and plane irons with chromium oxide on a piece of hardwood or MDF about the same size as my whetstones.
I've heard that if you want a tool that will really improve your sharpening, get a microscope.
Uncle Dunc,
Leather strop with rouge = cats meow
You'll be amazed....it just keeps on geting sharper and sharper...
But have you compared it with chrome oxide? ;)
Uncle Dunc,
True....I have not compared....but it seems to me (famous last words) its the tiny burr that I'm after with the strop..and I do both sides of the metal...
...and how many barbers use a piece of MDF attached to their chairs....lol
Thanks for the help, Stein. I'll get the strop and rouge. Am I correct in thinking that will replace the ultra-fine 6/8000 stone and should be used as final polish and early in the job maintenance? As the secondary bevel reaches, say, 1/64 I would then need to drop down to the 1/4k stone and work up? I know this is probably all in the book, but am I thinking along the right lines?
Didn't find a comparable system to the Veritas set from Lee Valley, but found a VERY basic guide and coarse/fine stone to start with. When I pick up the strop I'll check Sears for a finer stone. If I can't find one, will 600grit paper and a piece of glass do for the step between fine on my stone and the strop until I get a 1/4k stone?
Thanks again. Chris.
Every six or ten months or so I find a good excuse to throw out this hoary old chestnut from my files. Here seems like another good opportunity whilst the discussion is hot, ha, ha. Funny really, I tossed it into a thread in another Taunton forum just a couple of weeks ago.
I don't know why the 'scary sharp' method has become so trendy, nor why anyone would even think to market it as a system with glass and abrasive papers sold as a kit, but there ya go.
We used to use the old sandpaper trick on site if we were ever daft enough to leave our stone in the workshop. Hell, even a smooth concrete step at the customers location has got me out of a hole once or twice, ha, ha--- ha, ha. Slainte.
A Lesson in Sharpening.
A perennial subject in woodworking magazines is that of sharpening techniques. No other furniture making topic seems to generate so many words, resulting in the publication of innumerable articles detailing ‘infallible’ or ‘sure fire’ methods of doing the job.
Naturally, the subject is of great interest because blunt tools aren't much use. The opening preamble to many of these articles often cause a wry smile for they bring back memories of my initiation into the 'dark' art. Many authors make valid points about those that struggle at it, and possess a workshop full of dull tools. Conversely, it is often said that those that can do the job tend to be fanatical about grits, slurries and bevel angles. My experience is that there are really only two types of people when it comes to sharpening.
1. Those that can’t.
2. Those that can.
In the first group, those that can't, you'll sometimes see every sharpening system known to man arrayed around their workshop gathering dust. They have oilstones, water stones, ceramic stones, diamond stones, guides, dods of sandpaper, jigs, etc.. Usually, every hand tool they own is chipped, dull and mostly useless.
In the second group, those that can, I haven’t observed much fanaticism about slurries, grits and bevel angles. In all the workshops I’ve worked in the only concern is to get the job done. It’s a case of, "Plane’s blunt, better sharpen it." Dig out the stone, sharpen the blade, shove it back in the plane, and get on with it. The equipment is minimal. A grinder, a stone and lubricant, along with a few slips for gouges and the like.
Going back to the early seventies when I trained, learning how to sharpen tools was undertaken within the first few days. I don’t now precisely recall the order of my instruction, but it went something like this. I was handed a plane by the cabinetmaker I was assigned to and told, "Git that piece o’ wood square." I didn’t know why, but I’d done a bit of woodworking at school, so I had a vague idea what to do. I fooled around with that lump of wood for twenty or thirty minutes, and got it something like. All this under the watchful eye of the crusty old guy and his ever present roll-up hanging out of the corner of his mouth.
"Okay, I’ve done that." I said, "Now what do you want me to do?"
I was told to hang about for a minute whilst he picked up his square and straight edge and proceeded to scrutinise my handiwork, followed by a non-committal grunt and some desultory foot sweeping of the plentiful shavings on the floor. (The wood was probably only about seventy five per cent of its original volume!)
"Now sonny, let’s do the next job," he announced. "Pull that jack plane yuh’v bin usin’ apairt and let’s have a look at the iron." I did.
"Hold the iron up so’s yuh can see the cuttin' edge," he instructed. (He was a Scot.) Again I did as I was told.
"Now, can yuh see it? Can yu see the ‘line o’ light’ at the shairp end there?" he wheezed, as he tapped off a line of ash onto the floor and stood on it. He was referring to the shiny reflection visible when cutting edges are dull.
"Aye," I said, after a little eye narrowing, and other pretence of intelligence.
"How shairp does it look to yoo boy?" he enquired.
I thought about this for a moment or two, seeking the right response to my tormentor, for I hadn't really got a clue what he was talking about, and finally replied rather hopefully and a bit brightly, "Pretty shairp, I’d say."
He laughed out loud, and hacked a bit. "Dinnae be the daft bloody laddie with me son. If yuh can see it, it’s blunt. I could ride that bloody iron bare-ersed to London and back and no cut ma’sel’. Git o’er here an’ I’ll show yuh something."
You can probably guess. Out came the oilstone from his toolbox, and quick as a flash the iron was whisking up and down the stone, flipped over, the wire edge removed, and finally stropped backwards and forwards on the palm of the hand. You could shave with it. I know, because he demonstrated how sharp it was by slicing a few hairs off his forearm. On went the cap iron and the lot was popped back in the plane, followed by a bit of squinting along the sole from the front whilst the lever and knob were fiddled with and that was it. He took a few shavings off a piece of wood and it went back in his toolbox. It took, oh,…......a few minutes.
"Now son, that’s a shairp plane. It’s nae bloody use to me blunt. Yuh may as weel sling a soddin’ blunt yin in the bucket fur'all the use it is to me." He explained with great refinement. "I’ve aboot ten mair o’ them in that box, an’ they’re all blunt. I know they are, because ah’ve bin savin ‘em for yuh. There’s a bunch a chisels too. Let’s get yuh started."
For what felt like forever I sharpened his tools for the one and only time under his rheumy eyed and critical stare, and things gradually got better. After a while he stopped telling me what a "completely daft stupit wee bastit" I was, and a bit later he started offering grudging approval. I had to sharpen some tools more than once because he kept on using and dulling them. When I’d done the lot we stopped and surveyed the days work.
"Aye, no too bad fer a daft laddie's fust effort," he commented darkly, sucking hard on his smoke, "I think ye’ve goat whit it takes. Time will tell sonnie. Remember, ye’ll never be a bliddy cabinetmaker if yuh cannae even shairpen yer feckin’ tools. Lesson over. Dinnae ferget it!"
I haven't.
Great story! Point taken, though, about the lack of need for various equipments. Experience is, as always, the key. Unfortunately for me I have no crusty old scot to tell me I'm a dift bistirt. I do, however, have a chisel that will cut a 3/8 bevel across the end of a piece of pine with little or no disturbance behind the cut. That chisel has only the primary bevel ground. The face is flat but not polished and no secondary bevel yet. I believe I'm on my way to a life with sharper tools.
The price for everyone's help is just a few more questions.
The face only needs to be touched up periodically now. Only when actually renewing the bevels?
Is it normal to have to dress a stone each time a chisel is ground, or is that a symptom of a low quality stone? I worked the entire face of the stone but quickly (about 60 minutes) developed a slight depression. I also noticed that the final honing steps (Silicon Carbide paper 320, 600 & 1500grits and Crocus Cloth last, all on glass) took out the curve on the blade.
Finally, the primary bevel must be renewed when the secondary gets too wide? Indicating that it's travelling up the blade?
Gotta go! Thank you for all the help!
Like many others, I've used oil stones freehand, sandpaper and Veritas jig, and now freehand on water stones. (Sorry, I'm not nearly the wordsmith Sgian is - glad to see you in action again).
I have a 200 grit waterstone for removing nicks and such, but don't start with it otherwise. On my just received Ashley Iles chisels, polished the upper surfaces with 800, 1200, and 4000; on the face just 1200 and 4000. The bevel needed only 1200 and 4000 like the face.
I don't bother with micro bevel. When chisel not cutting as smoothly, back to 1200 and 4000. When I am honing close to the entire surface of the bevel, back to the white grinding stone to restore a bit of a concave (hollow ground) bevel. The cutting edge can be re-honed much faster if only the two ends of the bevel are touching the water stone (or sandpaper or ...).
Usually I only press down when drawing the chisel away from the edge, because I have gouged the 1200 and 4000 stones pushing into the edge. Soon as I have a consistent wire burr (is that like a scottish burr) along the edge, on to the next stone. I only hone the face on the 1200 and 4000 stones. Usually avoid the circles and figure 8's because I can't keep from rocking the chisel.
Made a couple gorgeous leather strops. Restored the cutting action of a chisel the first couple times I used them, but then stopped getting better cutting action. Finally realized that because the leather has some give it is VERY easy to round over the edge when stropping the bevel. They're still hanging on the wall, just for atmosphere.
Took me a long time to be able to hone well. Keep experimenting, and the magnifying glass is perhaps the best suggestion you received. There are almost as many technique nuances as there are woodworkers. Find a technique that works for you and keep at it.
Good luck.
Sgian Dubh
(I believe the name is Richard?)
It was inevitable that the discussion include freehand honing vs using a guide. (I'll bypass the messy topic of various abrasives and systems on which to abuse the metal). I, too have used a concrete walkway, having no stone with me on that occasion. But I was sharpening a pocketknife, not a plane iron.
As one who CAN do it by hand (hone, that is) I am here to recommend the use of a guide. I learned to hone tool steel edges a few decades before I even knew that guides existed. And yes, it WAS a matter of pride to be able to do it well. The motion is quite unlike the straight up and back motion used with a wheeled guide. The human arm does not work that way. It is impossible to keep the bevel angle.
The iron or chisel is gripped on the sides, the hollow bevel surface is "sensed" as a stable plane that is locked against the abrasive surface by the hand and wrist and the honing motion is very askew to the long dimension of the stone (or piece of sandpaper). Almost a side to side arm motion on the long dimension than an up and back one. That's the only way the arm and hand can keep the angle constant. And it does a very good job.
An experienced worker can be quite consistent. But not as consistent as with a guide. There is just no comparison. Free hand inevitably rounds the bevel and microbevel. Does it matter? I think it does. Freehand gets the edge out of square. Does it matter? It depends on the final cutting technique. I believe the guide refines the process.
It's very easy to keep my 20 year-old Eclipse guide at hand (it's very small, you know) and setting block and can put an iron or chisel in it almost without looking. Very fast. Forward and back. Done. (2000 grit paper on the jointer bed, no adhesive). No more worries about truing my waterstone.
By the way, avoid honing on concrete containing a lot of suface pebbles. Very poor results.
VL
Pointy but solid. Starting to hate the stone anyway. Great results with paper on glass, but affixing the paper to the jointer bed would be easy with the fence. I'll try one without the stone, but these chisels seem to need a fair amount of grinding. Of course it's my first time honing and the first hone on new blades,maintaining the edge should consume less time.
Thank you everyone for your kind assistance. I'll be in touch.
Venicia, it's just a story meant to cause a wee smile. It's one of those semi-true ones embellished and polished with time, like a fishing tale---- but he was a crusty old 'bastit' with a hidden heart of gold.
As the old sod would probably have said, "Shairp is shairp, sonnie. Ah dinnae give a #### how ye get it that way, but there's a feckin' job to get oot th'door, in a bit of a feckin' hurry." I guess something of that attitude rubbed off on me. I'm not much into philosophising(sp?) about the process of whacking out a piece of furniture-- make it and move on.
Naturally, sharpening guides or jigs can help, especially with a beginner struggling with the process. Whatever gets the job finished quickly works just fine with me. Slainte.
Website
I certainly appreciated the story for what it was. I believe you have more where that came from!
I like the story and your advice.
VL
Stories, Venecia? Hmm? I probably have one or two that I could write down. Hang around this place long enough and you'll work out that I'm mostly full of shi--. Well. You know. Slainte.Website
I'm a relative newbie here but have had reasonable success sharpening plane blades and chisels using the method that I learned at Lie-Nielsen.
I stopped in at the Lie Nielsen showroom in Warren, Maine one August afternoon, mostly to look at their toys and play with a few. After being really inpressed with how well their planes performed, I chatted with the gent in charge of the showroom and asked him about sharpening.
Since there was only an occasional customer that mid-week afternoon, he proceeded to give me a lesson, which lasted 15-20 minutes.
For blades in need of some work, he recommended stick on sandpaper, on a flat surface. He had glass. I picked up a granite tile for less than $5 at HD that seems to work as well.
Using a honing guide and carefully getting the angle just right, first work through 220 and 400 grit sandpaper, wet. Then move to a waterstone of 4000 grit and 8000 grit. I don't know why the big jump from 400 grit sandpaper to 4000 grit waterstone, but it seeme to work for me. At each stage, work the bevel and the back. He kept alternating between bevel and back with a decreasing number of strokes on each side.
I picked up a 4000/8000 grit Norton waterstone there for $65. If you haven't priced them, the finer grits are a lot more expensive than the lower grits.
I have had to flatten the waterstone a couple of times using 400 grit wet paper on my marble tile.
I get mirror edges and the hairs do pop off the back of my hand.
I'm sure my technique can stand inprovement, but I'm quite pleased with the results.
Regards,
Bill
Magnifying glass?! It comes to that, does it? Who'd a thunk it. Sharpened four chisels yesterday. The two I started on the stone ended up round until they hit the sandpaper, they also took twice as long. The two I started on paper moved quickly along, and I thought I was done, but I'll have a closer look and maybe try wetting the paper. I've heard of concaving the bevel, maybe when I have two sets of chisels I'll try it. The more opinions I get, the more things I'll try. Once I've read a book or three I'll be able to build a process. I know I need a flatter surface, I'm using a piece of 100 year old 1/8 window glass and it's kinda ripply. Have a pile of 3/4 marble slab outside, maybe a polished piece of that. Maybe I'll use a piece with water or oil on it and see if that makes a good finish. Woo-Hoo! Now the juices are flowing!
Thanks again for everything. I'll tinker with it as time goes on and experience tells me to improve. Right now the chisels are very sharp and I expect to have to sharpen them again soon. Happy Trails.
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