Hello.
I have started woodworking after retiring & have been given a number of sharpening stones, a mixture of both water and oil. My question is how do I tell the difference between them, some have been used for sharpening razors (for shaving) and others for general tools. There is a mix of manmade and natural stones, mostly natural. Also do I need any special oils for them.
Thank you.
Discussion Forum
Get It All!
UNLIMITED Membership is like taking a master class in woodworking for less than $10 a month.
Start Your Free TrialCategories
Discussion Forum
Digital Plans Library
Member exclusive! – Plans for everyone – from beginners to experts – right at your fingertips.
Highlights
-
Shape Your Skills
when you sign up for our emails
This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply. -
Shop Talk Live Podcast -
Our favorite articles and videos -
E-Learning Courses from Fine Woodworking
-
-
Replies
Peter - One quick way to tell whether the stones have been previously used as water or oil stones is just to put a few drops of water on them. The water will bead on those that have been used with oil.
As far as distinguishing whether they were originally intended for oil or water use, the only sure-fire characteristic is the characteristic appearance of a natural Arkansas oil stone. Perhaps someone will photograph one and post it to this thread.
Once a stone has been used with oil, it will be difficult to extract enough of it to use it with water, though you can do it by soaking it in mineral spirits for several days, and then changing the mineral spirits out for laquer thinner before finally washing it thoroughly in dishwashing liquid and warm water.
A lot of different oils will work on oil stones, but they all generally have the characteristic of being low-viscosity (i.e., much thinner than motor oil). 3 - in - 1 oil works fairly well, as well as oil labeled "honing oil".
dkellernc - I have tried the test you suggest, it works thank you. It is so obvious that I never thought of it.
I have plenty of 3 in 1 so should be fine with that.
I have tried cleaning some of the oil stones and they appear to be natural Arkansas.
Some of the water stones are grey like slate, i know these were used to sharpen the cut-throat razors that my father and his father used, I am 72 so that makes them old.
If you've some translucent Arkansas stones in that collection that are of any size, they're quite valuable. The natural source of this stone was depeleted a while back, and a high-quality translucent stone in a 3"X7" size goes for several hundred dollars.
Also, you may have natural water stones. Depending on the source of the stone, in Japan these fetch a great deal of money - sometimes thousands. The synthetic water stones by King, Norton and others have largely supplanted natural Japanese water stones in the West.
I use only oil stones and have for many years and have found WD-40 to be a great honing oil, cheap and easy to use.
Not a joke..
My grandfather had a very large stone for sharpening his straight razor. AND that leather belt!
I watched him a lot as a child.. As I recall he just spit on the stones! He put some kind of oil on the strop! I have no idea what. Maybe back then whale oil?
WILL, You reminded of my first boss carpenter, He taught me to sharpen tools with a stone and spit (He called it 'Human Oil' I haven't thought about that term in fifty eight years. lol Stein
What about the Norton diamond stones with the continuous grit? I've heard some folks complain about flatness. I'd like to try these. Anybody have them?Adam
Adam - I've had both (continuous grit and the DMT "hole" stones), and I find them all-but useless for anything but rough shaping and the initial stages is flattening.
The reason is that they're just not flat enough, and the problem I have is that when I switch to Japanese water stones in the higher grits for honing and polishing, the non-flatness of the diamond stones really stands out, as (for example) the backs of plane irons will only polish in the center. That creates an unacceptable level of work on the waterstones (the waterstones, btw, are flattened repeatedly during a sharpening session on a granite surface plate and silicon carbide 400 grit paper), so I keep the diamond stones in coarse/fine/extra fine for shaping the bevels of carving tools, thining out a plane iron to get it to fit in a wooden plane, etc... In other words, rough shaping and the initial steps of honing.
Had I to do over again, I'd have gotten an extra course DMT, a coarse #### Arkansas, and 1000, 4000, and 8000 grit japanese water stones.
The reason is that they're just not flat enough
I have mentioned this before, but do not recall anyone taking it up in discussion, that the desire for flat stones and sharpening media is likely to be a modern era thing. I would date it from the introduction of honing guides.
When freehand honing a blade, the "effective length" of flat required is the total length from the tip of the bevel to the end of the guide's roller. Compare this with the bevel depth when honing freehand. As long as the hand is accomodating to the changes in the surface - which is easier to do when the effective length is short - then the media surface is effective flat.
It would explain why so many vintage oil stones are so dished.
I've not actually measured this, so you hear my logic talking. What do you think?
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 8/14/2008 1:58 am ET by derekcohen
That certainly makes sense. All my dad's and uncles stones were dished, some of them pretty deeply. They sharpened freehand, and they got their planes and chisels sharp, and quickly.
Mike D
Mike,
It may become fashionable to sell "pre-dished" stones to woodworkers who want to emulate the old ways. I will call Norton and see if we can work something out. Derek may just have reoopened some old frontiers.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
A factory dished stone will never work as well as one that's been dished by an experienced craftsman. But craftsmanship is never cheap. I have a few hand-dished stones here, that I would be willing to part with, for the right amount of money. One is a bench stone, dished with the right degree of curve for plane irons. It is actually "double dished"- longways, plus side to side- for putting a bit of camber in at the same time. The other stone is smaller, more deeply dished, and slightly asymetrical, with a shallow "entering" curve, and a deeper inclination at the other end, with a shallow pocket along one side, for small chisels, gouges, and pocket knives. No factory can duplicate this. It takes years of using only the middle of the stone, and not the whole surface...Doh!! I gave away the secret. Okay, forget the offer for selling those stones. I'm teaching classes. Video and DVD coming soon.
Ray
Ray,
I can see it now.
Ray Pine becomes the "Rob Cosman of the US".
DVDs, the whole nine yards.
A special DVD on how to dish a stone properly over time. NEVER HURRY THE DISHING OF A STONE. I think you could auction your time-dished stone on EBay. I saw a hand made block plane go for over a grand last year. I don't think the maker is as well known as you are. YOu should be able to get $2000 for the dished stone. In years to come, when you are the star of the travelling woodworking show, please remember who your friends were.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
The Ray Pine travelling woodworking show! Watch me trick- shoot a joint, on (shaving) horse back! A nailgun on each hip. Live Indian displays (Anant) smoothing planes! Riving knife throwing demonstration! Hurry! Step right up!
Ray
Derek - I agree that a flat stone is probably a modern thing, but what I was referring to with the coarse DMTs vs a user-flattened water or oil stone as a final polishing stone has to do with flattening the back of a plane iron or chisel.
In the case of a plane iron, there's no requirement that the back be flat, as a back bevel will work just as well to bring the two edges together to create a sharp edge. However, and in my opinion, taking the time to initially flatten the back of a plane iron and keep it that way is time well worth spending, as it makes honing the blade to return it to sharpness a lot easier.
With dovetail chisels, I think a flat back is again not an absolute requirement, but having a back-bevel on a paring chisel makes it difficult to use accurately. My conclusion comes from carving tools - if there is a bevel on the side of the tool that you are trying to push in a straight and level line from a knife-marked edge (even a tiny bevel), it will tend to force the tool up and away from the line.
Unfortunately, we will probably never know if craftsmen from the 18th and early 19th century (the age of handwork) valued flatness in their stones or honing strops. Once the need, and knowledge, of making things by hand was supplanted by machine, many (if not most) tools fell into the hands of untrained "do it yourselfers" that had no knowledge of how a tool should be used. I think we've all seen those chisels with chipped edges because they were such a useful paint can opener....
Let's don't all contract the David Charlesworth disease where we forget that stones have two sides (except diamond stones).
Let's don't all contract the David Charlesworth disease where we forget that stones have two sides (except diamond stones).
Actually Charles, I did flip over my Extra Coarse DMT Duostone and discovered that the other side sharped quite coarsely. :)
Thing wont dish worth a damn tho'.Regards from Perth
Derek
I guess the operative word is duostone which I assume means two-sided. I'm glad somebody out there is keeping up with this stuff. I'm still learning how to read a log to make riving go better. Maybe if I live another hundred years I'll have it down.
Relax Charles, I'm just teasing you. Nothing malicious. :)
Regards from Perth
Derek
I thought I was teasing you.... you demonstrating sharpening and me doing woodworking.... oh well, fell flat on several different levels I guess.
No harm, no foul.
Edited 8/14/2008 12:54 pm ET by BossCrunk
Adam,
Curious as to what the woodworkers used back in Colonial days. I am wondering just how sharp there tools were compared to how sharp we can get them today.
Greg
Greg, There's a lot we don't know about what they had and how sharp their tools were. Looks to me as though many craftsmen had grindstones of some sort. The sorts of stones available don't compare favorably to modern synthetic grindstones. The average sand stone grinding wheel is very slow cutting. High speed and high pressure seems to improve their performance. Large diameter wheels were the easy way to "gear-up" the mechanism. These large stones make hollow grinding all but impossible. Professional cutlers in Sheffield may have had huge wheels, possibly in excess of 4' in diameter. Aside from the sand stone, craftsmen had a variety of slow cutting natural stones in a variety of grits, none of them very coarse. Most probably had a fine stone which may have been comparable to our arkansas stones, so achieving a very fine edge was possible. So to answer your question- they had natural stones which stunk by our standards, but they had fine abrasives that allowed them to get fine edges. I think they would have had problems achieving flat backs on tools and may not have bothered.Adam
In Germany,
my Father and also the shops used stones what they called a
"Belgian Stones ". The Year 1920 or so.
They had only on flat side and where irregular shaped.
the size was about 2x3 or 3x4 could also be triangular just as a stone would break. they where natural stones.
You used them with water. I have two and the stones work extremely well.
Better than some Arkansas and Japanese stones I have. You used them with water and held them in your hand.
Hilmar
Edited 8/16/2008 11:02 pm ET by h12721
I would add to Adam's thoughts that I strongly suspect that their honing methods used stropping where we would use an 8000 grit japanese water stone or a translucent arkansas. "Tripoli" (powdered pumice) and "Rottenstone" (powdered limestone) were available in abundance, leather was certainly available, and there was a souce for grease (animal tallow) to hold the abrasive to the leather.
I say this because so long as the edge doesn't have a nick in it, there is no faster way to get a "working dull" edge to razor sharp. 2-3 strokes is more than enough to get a plane edge incredibly sharp, and takes about 20 seconds. Carvers have used it since medieval times, and it would certianly be known to cabinetmakers.
Thanks for all the help with the stones guy, I feel that I can now use some of them & they all seem to work.
Not me do it My Grandpa!
I bought a used straight razor on a lark once and tried to sharpen it. That was the darn hardest piece of steel I have ever seen. I am not too bad of a sharpener, but I never really got it sharp enough.
FB
am not too bad of a sharpener, but I never really got it sharp enough.
Love the post.. I'd think just what you said is why my GrandPa go so pissed off if I touched HIS stuff!
I'd bet fir his straight razor...
If You blew your breath on the edge AND had good hearing.. You could hear the Microbes SCREAM in TWO voices as two passed the Rasors edge!
Will,
You could hear the Microbes SCREAM
Nope, taint sharp enuf. If twas theys ner a chance to scream.
:-)
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 8/13/2008 2:57 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
If you draw the blade towards you (sharp edge in front) at ~ 45° across the stone on one side then roll it over on the back of the blade and repeat in the opposite direction it should work.
You normally start on the rough side first to establish the teeth, then a few swipes on the smooth side to hone them. Strop a few strokes on the canvas side of the strop to clean out any grit left from honing. Then strop on the leather a few strokes.
Oh yeah, make sure you reverse the blade first when stropping!
To make sure you got it right, blow up a balloon and coat it with shaving cream - then shave it. If the balloon don't break, Bobs your Uncle. If it does , well then you're ready to shave!
An old barber from WAAAAAAAAyyy back when,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Almost any oil will work ,from Mazola to kerosene and even motor oil cut with kerosene. I also use wd40 as it works fine and is not as sloppy as some other oils.
One day in a pinch I borrowed a few ounces of cooking oil (mazola) to hone a drawknife and broad axe. I was surprised to see it worked great. I still use mazola as a substitute for lard oil on a metal lathe. Lard oil is the lubricant for turning steel.
mike
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled