Replies

1. 
   saschafer | Jun 12, 2009 02:52am | #1

   Lots of places. Woodcraft carries the Spyderco line. Lee Valley also has some, but they're smaller ones, intended for sharpening knives rather than woodworking tools. Japan Woodworker carries the Shapton line.

   -Steve

    

2. 
   BG | Jun 12, 2009 03:00am | #2

   Alan23,

   You can get the Shaptons glass stones from LN.

3. 
   roc | Jun 12, 2009 06:33am | #3

   Alan,

   for shapton try here:

   http://shaptonstones.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=164_167

   the last year or so everyone stopped carrying the pro stones.

   With all due respect to BG I have come to the conclusion, that for me, it is worth getting the Pro stones because you can have two sharpening surfaces, of the same grit, for just a little more $. I have one side with some wear and dish ( then flatten when they get too far out ) and one side very flat for when it matters. I put a magic marker arrow on the side/edge pointing to the flattest side.

   I like the shaptons.

   roc

   Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )

   
   

   ---

   Edited 6/11/2009 11:36 pm by roc

1. 
   derekcohen | Jun 12, 2009 07:13am | #4

   I have the Pro Shaptons in 1000/5000/8000/12000. They are epoxied to glass, so I only use the one side (well, what do you expect ...:))

   With a hollow grind (which reduces the amount of steel to hone) I tend to only require the 1000 and 12000. You would need a stone (or more) inbetween if you were honing full faces (such as Japanese chisels and plane blades).

   The reason for the glass is that the Shaptons  do not remain perfectly flat between sessions. The glass limits any movement.

   I flatten them frequently. This takes two seconds with either a Shapton diamond plate or a DMT Extra Coarse duostone. Flattening them not only keeps them flat but also prevents them loading up.

   The advantage of Shaptons is that they cut fast and remain flatter for longer than other manufactured waterstones. Plus they are ready for use almost immediately with a little spritz of water (they do not need to be soaked before use as do many other waterstones). Don't think of them as a waterstone alternative to an oilstone - they are not as hard wearing. They are just harder wearing and faster cutting among waterstones. They still require the same care as extended to other waterstones.

   Regards from Perth

   Derek

1. 
   roc | Jun 12, 2009 08:24am | #5

   Derek,I may be full of beans here but I have been looking at these pretty close on line and though I don't own the glass dudes.Here are my observations:• If one were to order a "Pro" 8000 for example I believe you would get a 8000 solid stone; no glass• The 12,000 seems to be a mis print on the other supplier's catalogs. Shapton lists no 12k; in reality it is a 16k glass or a 15k solid Prohere is a quote from the Shapton home page differentiating glass from pro:". . . the GlassStones are 10mm (~0.5in) thick, and the Professional stones are 15mm (0.59 in) thick."Interesting the comment on the manufacturer's page about "they should be flattened before each use". I think that is a ploy to get one to wear out the stones faster. Seriously I have flattened my stones and later gave em another swipe on the diamond plate and they hadn't changed significantly.Is this supposed to be a temperature change that changes the stones or atmospheric pressure or what. I don't want to be all intense here and argumentative so please don't take it that way. I am just interested in the ( recent ? ) development of the stones changing day to day.I hadn't heard that one until tonight.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )

1. 
   derekcohen | Jun 12, 2009 10:24am | #6

   Hi roc

   The Pro stones do not come with a glass backing. I added the glass backing to improve stability. This did help a lot but not perfectly - If I flattened them at night and then measured this in the morning, I would see light under a straight edge. Typically they create a hump in the middle, which is not good.

   Now I tend to leave them alone at the end of the day, and flatten them in the morning before use.

   The first 8000 I bought came via eBay. It was almost completely thick, but I later discovered that the reason for the sale was that the owner was frustrated with the stone going banana on him... because it did this with me as well! It was noticable by eye. After a little "negotiation" I kept the stone and epoxied it to glass. This helped 99%.

   You really do need to flatten them regularly as they use them because they do not stay flat as long as most believe. They are better in this regard than all other waterstones I have used, but still ...

   The "12000" Pro was designated a couple of years ago. I think that they changed the rating to 15K, that is, they are both .9 microns. The 16K is the glass stone.

   I can't recall if I mentioned that I use the Shapton diamond plate to flatten them? I picked up a new one at a reasonable (not gloatable) price at a deceased estate. I was using a DMT Extra Coarse diamond stone, which was very good as well. So I can quickly tell when the stones are losing flatness. One swipe says all.

   Regards from Perth

   Derek

1. 
   Lataxe | Jun 12, 2009 11:17am | #7

   Derek (& Roc)

   I have no experience of waterstones of any kind; there seem to be a lot of comments about the amount of attention they need to get and keep them working well, which puts me right off.  I have to say that your information about these Shaptons confirms my feelings about the things - too much bother to maintain.

   No doubt you find it worthwhile to employ them in getting the edges you want.  Even I (a lazy skinbag) will put in some effort to get a desired result.  However, I find use of diamond "stones" very straightforward with none of this high-maintenance bother: they produce a very good edge (good enough for me) if those edges are given a final (and very brief) strop on the leather-with-honing paste.

   Until the advent of the DMT 8000 grit plate, my final sharpening was done with microgrit papers on MDF.  But now that its "worn" in, the DMT 8000 diamond stone seems to be producing a very good final edge.  So, my routine is:

   grind a bevel (if necessary) on a Tormek - this is a rare need;

   using a jig, make the edge through 600, 1200 then 8000 diamond stones; 

   during the above, make microbevel(s) as required; back bevel too, if wanted

   strop on leather with a honing paste.

   I use the largest diamond "stones" and put them on top of a piece of thick (and flat) MDF, then the whole caboodle on a flat surface such as bench or TS table.

   After this preparation, which goes rapidly with fast-cutting diamond, the blade stays "good" for a lot of work, using a few strops every now and then to bring the edge back to super-sharp.  Eventually a re-making of the last microbevel on the 8000 with the jig is needed, with a bit of blade-back attention. 

   After what seems a huge amount of planing-work, many restrops and a few microbevel renewals, one might remake the whole bevel and so forth.

   Meanwhile, the work to keep the diamond stones ready for use is trivial - a wash with soapy water to get rid of the grey metal dust.  I use a very light oil, rather than water, for lubrication which means the "stones" also dry well (washing water beads and slides off).  The things stay flat and unworn.  They are clean to use and easy to store.

   ****

   Has diamond caught up with other media, with the advent of that 8000 stone?  Maybe not for the ultimate of ultimate edges; but for all practical purposes I would say that diamond alone (+ leather stropping) is more than good enough.

   Time to chuck them bananas into the bin then, along with those other soggy stones and their muck! :-)

   Lataxe, a diamond geezer

2. 
   roc | Jun 12, 2009 11:43am | #8

   >Banana stones and changelings<Gentlemen it is as if we live on different planets. My last couple of months have been going that way otherwise so no surprise I suppose. The only, only down side to waterstones for me is if I use a blade prone to rust. Most of my blades are modern stuff and don't have much tendency t rust quick.My experience with oil stones, admittedly limited in scope, have been slow to achieve results though the diamonds are quick.All I can suggest is eddies in the space time continuum. To which Arthur Dent responded "Is he ? ".PS: here is the whole bit from the book Life, the Universe and Everything :"I have detected," he said, "disturbances in the wash." [...]
   "The wash?" said Arthur.
   "The space-time wash," said Ford. [...]
   Arthur nodded, and then cleared his throat. "Are we talking about," he asked cautiously, "some sort of Vogon laundromat, or what are we talking about?"
   "Eddies," said Ford, "in the space-time continuum."
   "Ah," nodded Arthur, "is he? Is he?" He pushed his hands into the pocket of his dressing gown and looked knowledgeably into the distance.
   "What?" said Ford.
   "Er, who," said Arthur, "is Eddy, then, exactly, then?"
   "There!" said Ford, shooting out his arm. "There, behind that sofa!"
   Arthur looked. Much to his surprise, there was a velvet paisley-covered Chesterfield sofa in the field in front of them. He boggled intelligently at it. Shrewd questions sprang into his mind.
   "Why," he said, "is there a sofa in that field?"
   "I told you!" shouted Ford, leaping to his feet. "Eddies in the space-time continuum!"
   "And this is his sofa, is it?" asked Arthur, struggling to his feet and, he hoped, though not very optimistically, to his senses.
   rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )Edited 6/12/2009 5:12 am by rocEdited 6/12/2009 5:16 am by rocEdited 6/12/2009 5:25 am by roc

   Edited 6/12/2009 5:26 am by roc

3. 
   shakychisel | Jun 13, 2009 11:12am | #13

   Hi Roc,

   OOOHH thank YOU !!  It's ages since I've read that delightful collection of nonsense.You have inspired me to go digging for it and re-vist the gang!

   Much fun....:-)

   Robin

4. 
   roc | Jun 14, 2009 03:39am | #14

   >digging for delightful collection of nonsenseIt is on audio books on Audible.com and iTunes also text available for Kindle e-books.Is there anything you can recommend that is similar ?I just read Long Dark Tea Time of The Soul for the first time this year. Fun but not G R E A T like Hitchhiker and the first Holistic Detective Agency .rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )

2. 
   BG | Jun 12, 2009 11:45am | #9

   roc,I too have the Pro Stones, they were purchased before the glass stones existed market wise. I posted as a source of supply issue.However, I've never been able to pull the trigger on the higher grit shaptons eg. 12,000, 15000, etc. The green rouge, which I believe is 1/2 micron, on mdf or hard board gives me a more than adequate sharp edge. A couple of years ago at an LN show they demonstrated the glass stones. In the higher grits he was constantly re-flattening..like every minute or so. He said it was necessary because of the tight tolerances for 15,000 and above. He had the tray with the water and slop all over the place. It was a beautiful edge to be sure..it's a shame it'll be used on wood.

1. 
   roc | Jun 12, 2009 12:01pm | #10

   >12,000, 15000Oh yah, totally unnecessary for wood working. For me it is to dream of what that mirror facet will look like using my jeweler's mag visor. Less micro fine scratches; closer to a true mirror. That is the goal ! Not better wood working. I want one just cause I want one.And once, if ever, I get the 15,000 then it is to dream of winning the lottery so I can get the 30,000 stone ~$600. Why ? Because that is the " better " one. Besides it is purple ! The royal color. To achieve the perfect mirror etc., etc., . . .rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )

1. 
   nazard | Jun 12, 2009 01:31pm | #11

   Careful not to get any purple "stone slop" on the sofa..... <gr>

1. 
   roc | Jun 13, 2009 03:59am | #12

   I hear it's good for the carpetrocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )