I would like to get some opinions on various sharpening stones used by woodworkers in this forum. Specifically, I’m interested in the Shapton ceramic stones, Norton waterstones and synthetic japanese waterstones. Which gives the best edge; is fastest; and most cost effecient (in terms of keeping it flat etc.). Or, is it best to go with one of the motorized systems such as the Tormek or sandpaper systems. I plan to sharpen plane irons, chisels, carving tools and lathe tools. Thanks, in advance for all replies. Pat.
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At one point or another in my woodworking endeavors, I have used every type of sharpening system you have asked about. They all work. You need to choose one, stick with it, and become proficient. Everyone has their preferred method, but they all work, none better or worse than another.
Presently, I use my Tormek system for regrinding damaged tools, and for re-sharpening carving tools that are curved. Otherwise, I use microabrasive 3M paper (from http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com) with a little WD-40 for a lubricant, adhered to a flat piece of granite. It's quick and accurate for me.
The idea is to get the tool sharp, and get back to work. Nothing is accomplished spending alot of time setting up a jig system to sharpen a straight edged tool. I can resharpen a chisel or plane iron in less than five minutes and get back to work. My recommendation to you is to pick one, and stick with it. It doesn't matter which.
Jeff
For what it is worth, I am all for a decidedly low tech route to sharpening of all types, so:
Plane irons, chisels, knives and the like, a cheap, ($59.00), Delta high speed six inch grinder, (creates a great hollow grind), with a 60 grit white wheel on it. Then, hone on a hard white Arkansas oil stone with WD-40 as a honing fluid. That’s it, no jigs, sandpaper, water stones, etc. Total kit, say $85.00.
Turning tools, just the grinder, again no jigs, etc. Learn to grind a bevel by eye, it’s easy.
Saws, the appropriate file for the teeth per inch and a home made saw vice. High quality files are about $7.00. Filing saws is not at all difficult.
There you go, that is all you need. IMHO, sharpening has been sold to amateur woodworkers as this mystical dark art that requires all manner of paraphernalia at of course exorbitant prices. Not true, these tools have not fundamentally changed if many centuries, and the Chippendales, Townsends, Dominy’s, all got by just fine. I say spend the money on lumber and a new L-N plane.
Pat, I think I've had 'em all. And I'll probably be crucified for this, but for me, the Tormec was a dog. Poor set up with water trough; spills all over the place. Slow. Some jigs inaccurate. Best thing I can say about it is it's so slow, it's easily controllable. But maybe that's just me, and some guys will swear by it like it's their kid. Anyway, after screwing with it for a year it was costing me so much mess and time I finally picked it up the Tormec and tossed the whole kitnkaboodle into the dumpster. (OK, bring on the condemnations, boys. Running and ducking.)
Got me one of these jobs .........
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=48435&cat=1,43072
Man, I can zap out razor edges on a chisel or plane in less than a minute. I find it easy, quiet, no water or oil mess. It's the sandpaper technique on steroids.
Well,
Chucking a 6" plate (using your favorite abrasives) in a drill press accomplishes the same thing - unless a lower cost (if you already have a drill press - or just get one...) is a major objection.
Learning to sharpen/hone freehand will, well, free you from alll sorts of gizmos.
Really great (so are all rotating plates) to put a slight camber (actually, hard not to).
Best wishes,
Metod
No, I have a drill press. I really like the accuracy and the speed of this lee valley unit. Thanks.
blewcrowe,
I did not mean that you should do away with something that gives you good service. My comment was meant more for those exploring various sharpening possibilities.
An existing drill press (I mean, a motor is already there) using the same abrasives might be an attractive option to some wishing the same results as from 'dedicated' units - and maybe even with a faster setup and greater control.
Best wishes,
Metod
No offense taken, my friend. If you can't give your opinion then what's the point of a forum. (Then again, some guys want to kill you if you disagree with them. <g>)
Somebody did an article on that very thing, with designs for set up and so on. I think he was proposing mdf or plywood to glue the sandpapers to. I know it would work.
I have this machine with it's motor, quick plate / grit changes, fence and easy angle set, and so on. It's the fifth sandpaper system I've used over about 25 years. It's definitely my favorite by a long shot.
Edited 4/27/2007 3:08 pm ET by blewcrowe
Too bad that I do not have a Tormek (or some other 'opponent') to start a war with you <g>.
I am all for trying (at least give it a try if it doesn't require a 'gambling size' investment) various approaches - and adopt the most suitable one or a combination.
Best wishes,
Metod
LMAO. I'm a Harley rider, and in that world the long standing dreaded thread and big argument is over synthetic versus dino oil. Threads can go on for hundreds of posts, and end up in dissertations of politics, religion, and so on. It's so bad it's funny.
blew,
Ewww, you ride/push one of those Hardly- Ablesons? Anyone knows that Indian made the only motorcycle worth owning. How's that for stirring the pot? ;-))
Cheers,
Ray
Yea, but they don't make them anymore!!!
How's that for stirring the pot.............
Okay. Here we go. Let the wars begin.
Thanks for all your replies on this thread. I found them all very interesting. I'll probably stay with what I've been doing, which is waterstones and Veritas MkII. Kind of messy. I just wanted to know if I was missing something. The replies were very informative. But, as some suggested, stick with what works for you. Thanks, again. Pat
blew,
No, no. You go first, I insist.
Oh, all right:
Harley Davidson, made of tin;
Ride 'em out, push 'em in.
Your turn,
Ray
What are we arguing about, or against? Honda Goldwings? They get their signature sound from the cappucino machine (which is mounted next to the ironing board).
blew,
Goldwing was the first two wheeler I saw with a reverse. Not sure that is a motorcycle.
Guess this thread is totally hijacked.
Ray
Guess this thread is totally hijacked................
Bingo, which may not be a bad thing, as many of the threads here begin something like "how do hold the sandpaper?" and end up as "and your mother is an islamofascist!"
That was funny! And accurate! Zolton
Yeah man. They get too serious.
Where dost thou post from?
Michigan...
Ah. Fine state. We do a lot of business there. I'm in New Jersey, more specifically, South Jersey. It's still like the civil war here: north versus south.
Blew,
Michigan is a fine state in terms of natural resources. Lately it's been a tough state to make a living in though. With auto plant closings and related industries reeling from the fallout, we're in a state of malaise; economic especially, as well as emotional. We used to say that when the Big Three automakers sneeze the rest of the state gets a cold. Recently, it seems as though the Big Three have been diagnosed with cancer...
Zolton
I hear you. As a business I would look at that as an opportunity to find skilled labor. There's quite a push in this area trying to get businesses to relocated into Michigan. Apparently they have some incentives?
The manufacturing thing is problem in the U.S. There is tendancy to a point finger at just one thing (depending on whose flag you're carrying), but it is many, many things. Overregulation by government. Overexpectancy of unions. Mismanagement and stupidity coming out from boardrooms. All juxtaposing with the conversion to a world market. It is a complex issue.
Wish you the best.
I thought this was a woodworking forum? Lets keep focused.
I thought this was a woodworking forum? Lets keep focused. .................
It's a conversation, and I'll carry it on as I please.
5 posts in a year and a half , all asking for help, and you are worried about the forums focus?------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
I offer my sincere appllogys for cutting in on what was none of my business, I am sorry for any one I might have offended. You are correct in that I have not been an active participant in these forums.
No offense taken, I do enjoy the diversions the threads take , I think the person who started the thread got his questions answered, there were a lot of good on topic posts on the subject. It's pretty natural for a conversation to change course over time.
Hope to see more posts from you!------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
I prefer a forum that has a conversational way about it because that's why I'm here: for the exchange and development of friendships. It's the natural human thing to go where life takes us. If one wants focus, one can get all the focus he or she wants by closing the door and perusing a book. And I do sometimes. But when I come here I EXPECT for exchanges to take many paths.
blew,
Heard a story once about someone lacking focus. Many years ago, there were these two spinster sisters who decided to have a family picture taken, and went to the photographer's studio in town for the portrait to be taken. On observing the photographer noodling around the back of the camera, one old gal asked the other, "What's that feller doing under that black sheet over there?" Sis answered,"Why, don't you know, he's got to focus." Wide eyed, the other asked in amazement, "Bofus?"
Ray
LMAO.
Ray,
For thems of yas what be of Hinglish extraction, Triumph would be the proper motor bike to be riding.....
And for thems of yas what be of Italian extraction, Moto Guzzi is the only one to be seen on.....
Pot stirred....
.<!----><!----><!---->
Tschüß!<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->James<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."
-- A.C. Clarke
Ever ride an Indian? Roommate in college had one that had been made to be dropped with the British paratroopers in WW II. Indestructable. One night, while not being able to see or focus too well, we drove it into the reservoir. Retrieved it several days later shook it dry and started it right up.
No, never ridden an Indian.
Long before I was a thought, my mother dated a guy that rode an Indian. Her eyes still get kinda dreamy when she thinks back on that.....
_____
Riding a motorcycle in this town involves a degree of risk that I'm not willing to take: at any given time of the day, the cops estimate that somewhere between ¼ and 1/3 of those piloting a motor vehicle are either drunk or stoned. No thanks.... it's scary enough driving around in a car/truck....
In a city of about 500,000 population, we average about 700 DWI arrests per month. City ordnance requires publishing the photos of those convicted of DWI in the Sunday paper. Depending on court activity, they publish them once or twice a month, in batches of 180 (10 rows of 9 photos per side, 2 sides). Some of these fine citizens even manage to get their pictures in the paper twice in one ad for convictions of incidents less than 4 to 6 months apart, and the BAC number are sometimes staggering: .25, .33, .27, .29, etc. Legal limit here is .08.
There are a lot of really great things about living here, but because of the sheer numbers of impaired drivers on the road, driving/motorcycle riding ain't one of them.....
.<!----><!----><!---->
Tschüß!<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->James<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."
-- A.C. Clarke
In today's world we must deal with soccer moms, carloads of kids, cell phone junkies, newspaper readers, alkies and druggies; you name, I've seen it.
Successful, long-living motorcyclists are so because they assume nothing, and expect every idiot to do the worst possible thing at the worst possible time. The thoughts overflow with defensive driving techniques.
Nah. If you ride a Triumph you end up on the wrong side of the road.
pz,
Triumph is a fine machine, if you ignore the Vincent or Brough Sup.
And I always liked the looks of crossways Vee twin, cause they reminded me of the Indian experimental WWII 841 model.
Lost in the past,
Ray
I used to sharpen everything by hand until a couple of years ago when I bought the MK Sharpening system. It's quick and accurate for sharpening chisels and plane irons. I still use the hand method for carving tools.
Yellowtail,
Like the others, I have/had them all. We are under the myth that you have to have the perfect machine.
All you really need is very flat surface ($2 to $5 for a piece of thick glass (scrap) from your local glass company) and wet/dry sandpaper up to 2000 or maybe a bit higher. It is called the "scarey sharp" system. So sharp its scarey. There have been several articles on the method in Fine Woodworking as well as others.
A decent grinder comes in handy when you are starting with a horrible old blade and you need to regrind it to the angle you want and to make sure it is square. But, with a little bit of elbow grease you can also skip the grinder and start with 80 grit sandpaper on your flat surface. A decent sharpening jig, like the Veritas II works great.
With the sandpaper, be sure and use water on top of the sandpaper. Some people use WD40 or Liquid Wrench, but water is cheaper and works just as fine. Just be sure and wipe the blade/chisel dry when you are finished.
Then, rinse the sandpaper off and let it dry. Ready to go again for another few sharpenings.
As others have said, the outcome is virtually identical. The wood will never know the difference.
Be sure and learn how to hone once you finish getting it sharp. Honing is that magic that makes your blades cut so well.
Alan - planesaw
Your system is a good one, but it will be even better if you try this special abrasive paper
designed for sharpening vs. regular sandpaper. It has several layers of abrasive so it lasts much longer, it is PSA backed for easy mounting on a flat surface, and the grits go much finer than even 2000 grit wet dry paper. http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=ST-MAF.XX&Category_Code=THSI bought the sample pack. I also bought a granite reference slab from Lee Valley ($35) which provides a SOLID base that is really, profoundly flat.
Vincent,
I started out using what you are talking about -- 3M microfinishing film. Good stuff, but a touch expensive. Even more expensive when you get the self-adhesive version. I have always bought the non-adhesive. A film of water holds it quite nicely to the glass I use. Highland Hardware use to stock it. If Tools for Working Wood stocked the nonadhesive I would probably buy from them.
By the way, you can probably get a great piece of granite for free, or very cheap, by getting to know your local monument company and getting some of their "scrap." Things don't come much flatter than float glass as I understand, which I believe I recommended. At least within millionths of an inch that would matter for sharpening purposes. And, it is cheap.
We did a sharpening demo at our local woodworking guild last week using grinders, waterstones, and sandpaper. Expensive, moderate, cheap. There were great testimonials for all three ways. One can also use felt wheels for honing as well as oilstones and diamond "stones."
We tried to dispel the myth that you have to pay a lot of money for an expensive machine to be able to sharpen and hone properly. You don't. Water wheels / grinders can speed some things up, but one can sharpen and hone just as well with "sandpaper" (including the 3M microfinishing film) and felt wheel or a scrap piece of leather for a strop.
Just my thoughts and expensive experience,
Alan - planesaw
"If Tools for Working Wood stocked the nonadhesive I would probably buy from them." We do.Joel
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com
Edited 4/29/2007 8:40 pm ET by joelm
Joel,
Great! Some moons ago when I heard you stocked 3M I checked and all I found was adhesive. Hadn't checked since then.
An order will be placed soon. Thanks for letting me / us know.
By the way, Joel, you are one of the business owners who logs on to Knots that I appreciate. You don't, at least that I have seen, do shameless plugs trying to use Knots as a way to get sales. You share your knowledge and experience like everyone else. Larry Williams is another one I appreciate. I would bet many readers might be "conversing" with you or Larry here on Knots and not even know "who" you are.
I am much more apt to buy from / support someone who is here to participate in the betterment of woodworking.
Thanks again,
Alan - planesaw
For planes and chisels the microbevel concept has been a revelation for me. In brief you sharpen to about 1000 grit (waterstone, diamond, or scary sharp) and then raise the bevel a degree or two and go to 8000 (waterstone or scary sharp). You only sharpen the final approx 1/8 inch of the bevel in this fashion. This concept is also used by those who grind a hollow bevel (with a grinder) and then hone heldheld -- the blade is only hitting the stone at the front and back of the bevel.
For myself I've gone with a Lee Valley -- Verias Mk 2 honing guide which lets you repeat the honing angle and add a microbevel really easily. I use a diamond stone about 325, 1200, and finally a Norton Waterstone 8000 grit. There are many good ways -- the principle is the same.
Gee Pat, you ask a dozen woodworkers and you will get a dozen different answers. Here is number 13...
First of all ... I hate sharpening. It is intrusive and I do not like to stop what I am doing to hone up a blade.
Second, I hate less than extremely sharp blades. Handwork with a razor sharp blade is bliss... but the pits with anything less.
I have tried many methods, generally finding Japanese waterstones to provide the best edge, but they are messy and require a dedicated sharpening station (which I have, but it gets dusty and piled with .. things). I occasionally return to sandpaper - well I use it anyway to flatten the backs of blades - but it is just as messy, only a different messy.
One solution is not to let your blades get so blunt that the edge needs to be re-ground. But to do this, I want the sharpening media at hand, so I can pick it up and put it down wirthout being distracted.
So I have two methods I now use. Both are rapid and produce razor edges in a minute or two. Both involve working with microbevels. One involves a microbevel on a hollow ground edge, and the other involves a microbevel on a flat primary bevel.
The hollow grind is first completed on a 6" high speed grinder (60 grit white Norton wheel). This only needs to be done once in a while. Following this I will freehand the edge. This method suits BD planes blades and most chisels. The hollow grind acts as its own jig.
The flat grind is completed on a bench belt sander (120 grit). The microbevel that follows is done with a honing guide, such as the LV Honing Guide Mk II. This method suits BU blades, Japanese and mortice chisels. It also suits those who are not confident to freehand sharpen.
Having established the primary bevel, the remainder of the process is a follows. This takes but a minute or two:
40 micron (400 grit) diamond stone > 10 micron diamond paste (a pea spread on a 8x3" piece of planed hardwood) > 2.5 micron diamond paste > and finally a leather strop (from Tools for Working Wood) spread with Veritas green rouge (.5 micron). Whenever the edge needs to be refreshed, I just pull out the leather strop.
I can re-use the same "pea" of diamond paste several times.
No mess, no space, hardly any time, cheap, razor sharp.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 4/29/2007 10:12 am ET by derekcohen
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