I have been trying to use the scary shape method to get all my edge tools shape etc. I have a good piece of grante for lapping. What I am running into is the method says to go down to 1500 and 2000 grit sand apaper. The finist I can find is 1000 grit at an auto suppley outlet. I have two questions 1) is it really necessay to go down that fine? and 2) if it is, where can you get sandpaper that fine without having to buy in bulk. I finished honing with a piece of leather and jewler’s rouge and that seemed to get a pretty shape edge.
Dan Carroll
Replies
Others I'm sure will disagree, but I have very good luck with going down to 600, from 320, and then using a piece of used 600 for the final paper, and then hone on leather. The bottom line of it all is whether it is sharp. If you are happy with what you have, keep it. My tools are scary sharp.
Pedro
Rockler sells it to at least 2500 and possibly 4000 grit. You can buy it in a pack with various grits or by the sheet. The 2500 and 4000 sheets from Rockler are small- probably better to go to a bodyshop supplier since I think 3M makes full sheets and they'll end up being cheaper.
Dan
Go to http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com. They have 3M psa paper in 8" x 11" sheets that are rated in mics. Their equivalent would be down to 15,000 grit. I use them in regressing grits to sharpen my tools, and they are excellent. I can go from a nicked chisel to a mirror polished edge within 5 to 10 minutes. I also spray a little WD-40 as a lubricant, which seems to really speed up the process.
Here's a link directly to the psa paper.
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=ST-MAF.XX&Category_Code=THS
If the link doesn't work, go to the website, and click on sharpening.
Walnutz
Seems like spending the extra buck on PSA is wasteful when one can use water between the 3M micron paper and the glass.
Anyother sources for 3M micron paper, nonPSA?
Alan - planesaw
Big Box stores have the 3M up to about 600 grit in 3 packs, I pay about $3 and can sharpen quite a bit with one sheet. They may go finer, depending on the demand and location. The multi-pack of 1500, 2500 and 4000 that I bought at Rockler has adhesive on it and that doesn't like getting wet- it releases the paper. It works well, though.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Highfigh,
I think we are talking about two different products of 3M. I am talking about micron paper. Finishing film as it is called. Measured in microns, not grit. I have never seen finishing film by 3M in any big box store. Highland Hardware used to carry it.
PSA (self-stick) costs more. I agree water with PSA won't work. Water with non PSA backed paper or film works just as well as PSA and is significantly cheaper.
Alan - planesaw
I know what micron paper is and never said it was available at the big boxes- look at the way I specified the grit. They wouldn't know what it was if I told them, anyway. I have seen it at Rockler and WoodCraft, but unless I really had to have it immediately, I wouldn't buy it from them. I guess just checking around in whatever city people are in and online is the best way to find out.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Wow, highfigh. I must have really misread, or at least misunderstood what you meant, in response to my comment about 3M micron paper, when you said " Big Box stores have the 3M up to about 600 grit in 3 packs, I pay about $3 and can sharpen quite a bit with one sheet. They may go finer, depending on the demand and location. The multi-pack of 1500, 2500 and 4000..."
Simply as a matter of explanation, I didn't mean to challenge your intelligence, or anything. Since I was referring to micron paper and you responded with grit I thought maybe we were talking about two different products. As you know, micron paper / finishing film is not measured by grit. 60 micron is fairly coarse, and 9 or 5 micron is very fine.
Again, my apologies for misunderstanding your words.
Alan - planesaw
PS I have always liked your signoff about cutting this board 4 times and it is still too short.
No prob- I think I need to go back and re-read your previous post. That's what I get for trying to do two things at one time.OK, I re-read yours- apparently, I completely missed 'micron'. I saw 3M paper instead. Sorry.DOH!600 Grit vs 9 micron- "It's all semantics". "No, it's not, it's in how you say it!". Do you have a conversion chart for them? I haven't seen a good one and if I have, can't find it now. I know some guys (two are brothers and the other two are their cousins) who were sitting around, having a few beers. One of them told his cousin, "your problem is that you argue too much". Right on cue, he said, "No I don't!"."I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."Edited 2/13/2007 11:21 am by highfigh
Edited 2/13/2007 11:27 am by highfigh
Okay -- I am going down a bit further once I can get some real fine 1200, 2000 grit paper. I don't use a guide and with the stone at the right height and working with the shoulder and not the hands, I can keep it very steady. I used my 'new' Miller Falls #18 the other day to joint an old piece of rough cut red oak after sharping it the first time. It was amazing -- cleaned that board up in about 10 minutes and a few licks with a 9 inch smoother and it was like glass. I have a great deal to learn about hand planes, but it was a real eye opening experience.Dan Carroll
Lee Valley sells Micro-Abrasive sheets that work very well and quickly:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=33004&cat=1,43072
Hope this is helpful.
Doug
DanCC,
Some day when you really want that smoother really sharp or you just feel like playing...put some of that green rouge on mdf or hardboard and work the plane blade. It's .5 mics...
If any one has friends or relatives in the collision repair business, or if you are unfortunate enough to be one their customers. They most likely use 600, 1000, 1200 or, 1500 wet paper on a daily basis. Some shops use 2000 on occasion.
Its sold in 50 half sheet packs.
I use 3-M
Ron
Here is a grit size chart. Probably not what you're looking for, but better than nothing. Grit sizes....http://www.onlineindustrialsupply.com/frasqu.htmlJJ
Here's what I know about grit and micron... I think it's correct, but I won't bet my paycheck on it...
Grit is based on the number of holes in a classifier that is used to separate the abrasive. I believe it's effectively the number of particles of abrasive that would line up in an inch. So 600 grit would be particles that are 1/600th of an inch or 0.001667 inch. Converting that to microns, multiply it by 25,400 and you get about 42 microns.
If my explanation is correct, 9 micron would be equivalent to about 2800 grit. So my conversion is 25,400/microns = grit.
or conversely, 25400/grit = microns.
Now, sure enough, somebody from 3M is going to read this and hand me my head, but then again, maybe I'm pretty close with this one.
I just looked at a conversion chart. If it is correct (I have no reason to think it's not), my conversion technique was wrong (good thing I didn't put any money on it). It appears that "grit" must be based on centimeters, not inches. If you divide 10,000 by the grit, you come pretty close to the microns. There are 10,000 microns in a centimeter.
I used to be able to get away with making people believe me by just saying it with a lot of conviction and throwing in a few obscure facts. This internet thing is making it a lot harder to get away with that technique.
Jim
Look at what I found- From http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=handtools&Number=2858570&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=2"Here is the list
80 microns or 180 grit.
60 microns or 220 grit.
40 microns
36 microns or 320 grit. At this point you have a very dull razor. It will shave but not well.
25 micron or 600 grit. This is where I usually start resharpening blades.
20 micron or 500 grit.
15 micron
9.2 micron or 1000 grit. At this point the blade should shave so so.
6.5 micron or 1200 grit. At this point I can no longer feel a wire edge when done.
5 micron
3 micron or 1500 grit.
1 micron or 2000 grit. this is a 3 step jump because I don't have the right grit.
.5 micron again a 2 step jump
.3 micron If it is not as sharp a new razor at this point, then there is a good chance that your blade is not hard enough to be as sharp as a new razor."
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Excellent. Thanks. Like the search for the Holy Grail.
"Like the search for the Holy Grail.""He's already got one. It's vere niza."
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
What grit is automotive "Valve grinding compound"?
I don't know the actual grit but the stiff I used the only time I had to seat a valve seemed more coarse than I would have thought. Might have been an old container but it worked and I had no compression loss. I use emery cloth for major metal removal and silicon carbide paper for sharpening my plane irons and chisels. It works, it's fast, cheap and lets me flatten and smooth curly hard maple with no tearouts or chipouts. I don't go to 8000 grit with sandpaper and while I understand why people use the Norton 200/800, 2000 and 8000 grit system, they still need to be very flat to do it right and cost a lot more up front.It seems to me that using diamond paste on any flat surface would cause that surface to not be flat pretty quickly. I tried using a drywall screen on a granite tile once and it beat the crap out of it. I had to get a new tile.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
B.S. still works, you just have to refine your technique a little!!!!!
Pedro
The material being refered to is "microfinishing film". It typically has a polyester backing, rather than a paper backing. Both 3M and Saint-Gobain (NORTON) make products. I like the microfinishing film alot for sharpening. I got rolls about 3" wide. I use some spray adhesive to hold them to the tempered glass plate, but try and spray only either end, as the adhesive can build up under the film and make bumps.
There are lots of conversion charts between "grit size" and "micron size", depending on the manufacturer (especially when you start dealing with fine abrasive). I feel a 1200 is close to the 15µm (micron) size. I use this for my routine sharpening, followed up by a "lapping film" product. This is a 9µm then 6µm grade. This puts the shiny edge on the film.
The microfinishing film is made for cutting metal. Its used to polish the surfaces of camshafts and crankshafts in engines for most cars today, so its good enough for my plane blades.
As for getting some, I would look for 3M/NORTON distributors, as they can "order" any width and length of microfinishing film you need.
Woodworker07,
May I ask where you get your 3M 3inch rolls of microfinishing film? Website, or contact info?
Thanks,
Alan - planesaw
I wish I could help you out with that one, but my stock of product comes from a cleaning house effort at work. The product I have was obsolete (no longer made), so the company needed to ditch it. I did remember that there were distributors of product that could "special order" the microfinishing film to the width and length you want. I can't comment on the prices though. I would check on the 3M or Norton websites and look for distributors in your area. If you find the film expensive for the width that you want, you might want to try and go in on the order with others. The rolls are available in very long lengths (over 900ft if needed), and I would think the cost per foot goes down with longer lengths. You can check, but there may be some price discounts for "standard widths". 1" is common (but not very useful for this type of work), but 4" wide is used in some machines for polishing large industrial rolls, so that size may be cheaper per foot (though I can't say for sure). Good luck.
highfigh
That is a bit like a story I know. Two brothers, call them Jack and Jake, were both on opposite sides of a stream. Jack yells to Jake, Hey Jake, how do I get to the other side of the stream? Jake yells back. Jack, you are on the other side of the stream. JL
Are you sure it wasn't two blondes?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
highfigh
Be nice to blonds...I read a report somewhere that says that natural (keyword here) blonds are VERY intelligent. Maybe they were dyed blonds...now there I might agree with you. JL (looking around to see if anyone is preparing to throw something at me)
Re: the not-quite-so-smart ones, "And when you hug her, you can hear the ocean".
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
highfigh
I think you must have traumatized at some point in your life by a blond or two, maybe when you were on the seashore. You do not have to give any details, but this is my take. JL
"I think you must have traumatized at some point in your life by a blond or two,"Hasn't everyone?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
...and my heart still flutters when I think about it. JL
They also sell non-PSA at the same site.
I have always preferred sticky vs. non sticky. I guess that's why they make both.
Walnutz
I also end at 600 most of the time but occasionally go up to 1500 for finish stuff (planes and chisels). I am no expert at sharpening but 600 creates a very sharp edge for me.
I do buy in bulk now but Pep Boys, etc. carries 1500 in small and expensive amounts.
TWG
does it cut well enough for whatever you are using it for? If so, question answered, otherwise the PSA is a great solution. I use a water stone 800 for some things and if I am feeling really ambitious i use the 1200 or better.
This is the best place I know of to get QUALITY sandpaper and best prices, hands down. If anyone knows a better place, I'm waiting to hear.
http://www.onlineindustrialsupply.com/index.html
You can get 2500 grit all day long here. I've place several orders with this company and have been very happy with the service and products. They carry Mirka sandpaper which I've read recommended here as very good paper.
I use the scary sharp method, and like a lot of others tend to stop at 600 grit when I'm busy. If I have the time I go to 2500 grit which gives a mirror finish and yes, it's a lot sharper. Is 600 grit sharp enough? Well, I'll tell ya. Take a chisel and sharpen it all the way to 2500 and use it. Then you be the judge. Like I said, 'if I have the time' I go to 2500. If I don't, 600 grit is pretty durned sharp, but it's not 2500 grit sharp....now THAT really is scary sharp.
Enjoy, and be careful with those chisels, one slip and it's to the bone.
....Jeff
Thanks for the info -- the prices are great. 50 sheets for about what the others are charging for 10.Dan Carroll
I get 3M paper from 800 down to 2000 grit at Walmart in the auto section around here (TN). These are the 1/3 full sheet size packs (5 sheets per pack, I think) and are not expensive at all, especially considering how long the paper lasts as long as you don't accidentally slice it while sharpening.
Dan,
I have been out of the loop for a week, so when I saw your message, you already had lots of good feedback, which I would call "the conventional kind". I am surprised that no one came back and told you to go to 2000 grit and then to use diamond paste and finally hone on a leather strop with no honing paste. The real sharpening afficianados take things pretty far.
But your question was "How far do I need to go?"
My answer is much different than the others gave you. They gave you an answer. My answer is sort of a non answer, but I believe it is the right one. If you can't tell the difference between two levels of sharpness, than you don't need it. So my advice is to try it both ways. If you can't tell the difference, than going the next step won't help you. Now if you later learn to tell the difference, and you think the difference is worth the trouble, then go ahead an do it.
In general, I recommend that no on ever ask someone else what they should do. I am a real "conservative" on that. I believe that only you should decide what to do. One should ask for information to help you make a decision which the decision-maker thinks is good. For example, a good questions is: how can one tell the difference in sharpness between two identical chisels, one sharpened to 1000 and one to 2000?
A big part of the answer to what to do lies in the skill you have to do it. If, for example, you are using scary sharp without a jig, and you don't have the skill to hold the chisel without rocking it, then it really doesn't make much difference how far you go with the grits.
So don't focus on "how far should I go", but rather focus on learning to tell the difference and on gaining the underlying skills, and then its up to you to determine how far you go. I home my unorthodox answer is at least entertaining to you, and possibly even useful.
Whatever you do,
Have fun.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Also, adding to what 9619 posted, instead of going to the "I want it so sharp it splits atoms", get it sharp enough to do the job it's needed for. A chisel or other blade won't split atoms, period. The steel can't be sharpened to less than the size of a single molecule and to work wood, it's not necessary. The Leonard Lee sharpening book shows scanning electron microscope photos of different levels of sharpness and while it looks like a huge difference, it really won't matter if it's taken that far. People use belt sanders to "get back to work and stop messing around" all the time. If anyone can prove to me that the greats from 200 years ago went to this degree of sharpness on their planes, knives and chisels, I'll admit that I'm wrong. I sincerely doubt that a choir of angels will start singing when I get my stuff that sharp, so I don't go that far. If a plane is chattering, tearing out and becoming hard to push, I hone it again. If it's shaving well, I keep planing.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Mel,With the utmost respect, that's a non answer indeed. No one has ever done what we are attempting to do. Woodworkers in the past had teachers, masters, or fathers to show them. Guys like Dan and me are left in our basements and garages to figure EVERYTHING OUT BY OURSELVES. I've been doing this for 10 years and its not working. There's simply too much to learn in one lifetime. No single woodworker ever discovered all this on their own. Let's just think about this for a second- the average 18th c cabinetmaker's apprentice, grew up seeing men working. They may not have seen veneer work, but chances are they saw mortises being cut by carpenters and saw how they held and used their saws years before they stepped foot into their masters' shops. Once there, they didn't restore any tools or design their first workbench. They entered a shop where all the tools were not only sharp, but sharp enough to make a living with.So Dan's question is valid and important and I'm going to try to answer it for him, ready?Here's what I do and what has worked for me personally:
Tools that chop - axes and adzes (not mortisers or firmers) must cleanly slice printer paper when the paper is drawn across their edges. This is good enough. You can easily get there with 600 grit paper. Everything else (excluding carving tools) must slice that same paper when the tool is pushed edge on, no drawing motion. 600 grit won't get you here. You must strop or do something else. Naturally your tools won't stay this sharp for long. I'm taking that into account with my paper test.Mel may say that experience is the best teacher (I'm not really picking on you Mel, just using your post as a sort of rhetorical springboard). In my opinon, that's a silly platitude. Someone else's experience is better. In my opinion and experience that's the way the world really works. We stand on our teachers' and parents' shoulders, if we're smart. If we're stupid enough to think we can figure things out for ourselves, we're doomed to the same mistakes of previous generations. (I'm guessing Mel will actually agree with all this).I talked to FWW's editor about Knots. Dan's question is exactly the sort of thing FWW is hoping people will ask and others will answer. So thanks for getting the ball rolling Dan!Adam
Adam,
I totally agree with your message. Of course one can and should learn from the experience of others. It takes too long to learn it all yourself. However, I believe that after getting ideas from others, one should test them out for onesself. In the old apprentice system, you just did it the way the master did, and you didn't ask questions. Then when you became a master, you could push others around. Now we are more egalitarian. I just try to get newbies to ask, but then test. NEVER ever take anyone else's recommendations for granted. Get ideas from others, and then try them out, and find ways to make them your own.So no disagreement there!! (not that disagreement is all that bad)Have fun, and thanks for the response.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel,
That's a good point about testing out the ideas of others.. I worked in three shops before opening my own. Thru the grapevine, it has come back to me that each shop's owner "taught Ray Pine everything he knows", guess I'm a slow learner! My point is that each shop had it's own set of s.o.p.'s that were considered the "right" or "best" way of doing things. Imagine, if you will, my surprise when on my first day at my second job, I saw a card scraper in use for the first time! Up til then, a "scraper" was made by Red Devil, for raking dried glue and paint, and followed up by a belt sander to level joints. And so on, for dovetailing, cutting tenons, you name it. In addition to the hands-on experience shared by my co-workers over the course of my multiple "apprenticeships", I have made the attempt to avail myself of the scholarship of others, by reading whatever I could get my hands on. And like Adam, I have arrived at some conclusions that are purely my own, in the solitude of my shop. It was a real ahah moment when I saw those really small fretsaw blades that are so useful for cutting marquetry and inlays--I'd been hand fitting those tiny pieces together, after cutting them out one at a time!
In talking to other crafts-men and -women, there is no end to the ways that a particular problem or building challenge may be overcome, or to the things that individuals consider the topmost priority in getting from point A to B--many craftsmen pride themselves on how many hours they have lavished on a project; "I spent eight weeks on this carving alone!" I have a close friend who built a Queen Anne highboy entirely with hand tools, just for the experience of doing so- the piece that resulted was almost an afterthought, he was truly more interested in the journey than the destination. I once talked to a craftsman who, after building a pretty nice queen anne chair, decided he liked cutting boards-made a hundred at a time, for sale at craft fairs- far better. Some apparently are in search for the holy grail of the perfectly sharpened edge, whether to use or admire, makes no difference to me, it's cool if that floats their boat.
Rambling on,
Ray
Ray,
You knew long before I did, that there are as many different reasons to do woodworking as there are people doing it. Every once in a while, when things are slow, I find a message on Knots that goads me into writing a response that is so long that I don't believe anyone will read it. Then a bunch of people actually do. I have been gratified to see that almost all of them have been very positive. I don't "need" to have everyone in agreement with me. Indeed, most of the stuff that I write is more for me than for other people. I never try to convince others of anything, and I never enter into "arguments". Usually my messages are things that I am working out in my own mind. Since they are ideas that are not "mainstream", I usually figure that there will be a negative reaction, but I am not trying to start one (ala Riverprof).Long ago, I came across the term "existence proof" -- that is, if someone has done something, that is proof that it is possible. A corollary is that just because they have done something, it doesn't mean that is the "best" way of doing it for me. I have asked you for advice a number of times, and you are always forthcoming. You don't know how much I appreciate that. I have come to learn that those things that you have come upon and stuck with, are based on two things:
1) a heckuva lot more experience than I have. and
2) a value system that is very similar to mine (eg - only buy tools that you are going to use, buy tools that are good enough rather than the most expensive, etc., trust to your own judgment as to what works for you)
So when I try out your suggestions, I find that they not only work, but that they fit my weltanschauung (God, how I love that word!)I was raised "blue collar". I have long lived in a white collar world, but my blue collar values won't go away (even when I try to chase them). To me, there is nothing like working hard and working smart, and working to learn how to work smarter in the future. So like you, I read a lot about woodworking, and I try things out. I keep what seems to work for me. When I answer someone else, I try to tell them that I am not recommending a tool or a technique as "the best" but only as "what works for me". Lately I have been heavy into carving. I have bought a number of books from earlier times, and one in German. The number of different ways of doing the same thing are as numerous as the authors. I am now to the point where I have tried many, if not most, of their recommendations. That is a very satisfying feeling. I am learning how to "evaluate" better. In my responses on Knots, that is the thing I recommend most "learn to evaluate for yourself". Ask others for the benefit of their experience, but keep the judgment for yourself. Only you will be able to tell what's best for you.I recommend you read Ivan Illich's "Deschooling Society". In it, he says that the purpose of a teacher should be to relieve the student from the need for a teacher, and the purpose of a school should be to relieve a student of the need for a school. However, he found that most teachers and schools do just the opposite. When most folks finish school, they are completely convinced that they cant learn anything for themselves. They have convinced students that they should always look to an "important figure" to get answers on what is "best". There are a lot of folks who really enjoy being the EXPERT, and fulfilling the need for others to be told what to do. How often do we hear "What tool should I buy?"Oh well, rambling again. These are interesting issues which transcend woodwork. So let me change the subject, and suggest a method that will make you millions. There are people on the internet who have put video cameras in their houses so that people can watch them for a fee. Why don't you set up cameras in your workshop, and charge $10/hr. to watch you make masterpieces. Call it "Virtual Apprenticeship". No need for you to say anything. Just do your work and let thousands of people pay to watch. If you do this and it works, I want 15%. :-)
Y'all have fun, y'hear.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"...why don't you put a camera in your shop..."It's already been done, it's called the Woodworking Channel on the internet.http://www.thewoodworkingchannel.com/As for many ways to do things, sure, that's always true. Alway more'n one way to skin a cat. However, in any vocation, there are "best practices" that must be followed for the outcome to meet or exceed expectations of quality workmanship. As example, no one with experience would suggest that starting out with flat and square material is not the best way to start out building a flat tabletop?I served a formal apprenticeship as a machinist "back in the day" where these "best practices" were taught. In my apprenticeship, these methods of performing work were not optional, rather they were the best way to achieve a desired outcome. Violate these methods and live with the consequences. Sure, there are lots of ways to do the work, but within each variation, proper fundamental practices should still be followed.Jeff
Adam
I agree that it is wonderful to have teachers, but do not glorify the old time or European apprenticeship system more than it deserves. The apprentices are often left on their own to make mistakes and then take the flak and abuse that results. It is through observation and practice that they learn. This forum is a bit of substitute, but only a minor level one. 18th century? Is that how old I am? :-)
Something that you must have experienced in all the years you have been working wood, or anything else, for that matter, is that if you are totally involved and focused on your work, the project will teach you things. You will regularly have those wow! Look at that! moments that show you better ways to do things and over time you become more proficient if you are paying attention while you work. It is much more rewarding (woodwork wise) to listen to the sound of the work and the music of the job than to listen to the radio or a music system. The plane makes a sound when it is cutting right that is recognizable and becomes a guide. A table saw has a certain level of sound when it is turning at the right speed. When wood is being fed too quickly or slowly, the change in sound tells us...and so on.
You actually have your teachers all around you, though it is a little hard to have conversations with this type of a teacher.
As far as this life time being too short, no it is not. It is just long enough, but it is not you who necessarily decides when it is time for a lesson. It is you, however, who needs to be attentive and not miss the opportunity for the lessons that are being prepared for you and presented to you. JL
Edited 2/24/2007 1:50 pm ET by jeanlou
Hi Dan,
What you are doing is my preferred method. I too often stop at 600 and strop. The problem with the strop is that it can dub the edge over a little. My experience is that this isn't usually a problem, but it can make subsequent sharpenings difficult. So I believe there are folks who say you need to move up in grits and strop less aggressively.
The problem I've encountered with the finer grits is that the blade will tear the papers up (as it gets sharper and sharper)*. That gives the PSA backed films an edge over paper. I find 1200 paper at my local autoparts store. I tear it before I wear out the grit. (Obviously these finer grits last longer than the coarser grits). So my advice is to buy a few sheets from my friend Joel at http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com and see how you like it. (He sells a sample pack just for people like us) If you fall in love with a grit, you may find you can buy it cheaper elsewhere. Then again, you may not live long enough to go through 50 sheets!
My recommendation would be to get a piece of glass or corian and stick a few finer grit psa backed films to it. I had this idea to get corian cut into oil stone like sizes, stick paper to it and make traditional wooden cases for my SS "stones". You do want to keep them clean.
Adam
* one solution to tearing the paper is to hone side to side. Mike Dunbar advocated this approach early on. But the science (not to mention Leonard Lee) suggests this results in a weaker edge. Those side to side scratches are failure initiation sites. I was reading some writings of Thomas Jefferson. He was speaking about his high born wife. He added something that seems fitting here: "...to which let each man ascribe the faith and merit he choses."
Adam,
I often go past 600 grit because it is so easy. It just takes another minute or two to go all the way to 2000. But I have not yet been able to discern whether it makes any real difference in the use of the chisels. That is a harder question. I can't say that I notice the difference between stopping at 600 and at 2000 except the surface looks shinier. My inability to tell the difference may just be due to the fact that I am not sufficiently "practiced" to discern the difference during actual use. If that keeps up, as you can imagine from having studied Darwin, I will discontinue the extra honing.Like you, I am interested in the practical aspects of woodwork, but often attack issues from a more scientific vein, if it is possible. I have spent too many years in science to be able to resist the temptation to "try to understand the difficult phenomena". One of the most interesting human issues in woodworking, IMHO, is "sharpening and honing". I hang out with the woodworkers and also with the carvers. Many, certainly not all, of the good carvers use spinning felt or cotton wheels, charged with honing compound to hone their gouges and chisels, and they keep honing them and honing them until they feel it is time to sharpen again. We know for a fact that this practice will dub the edge. We know that because of scientific reasoning. It is easy to prove with words. However, I have been doing the "carver" thing on my Two Cherries gouges and it works like a charm. They cut and slice well, and they hold an edge, and then I put them to the buffing wheel again and again, and they work beautifully. Every once in a while, I go back to the stone. Obviously this practice "should not work". We know this. It dubs the edge. Darn! this is driving me nuts. It shouldn't work, but it does, and it does so beautifully. There may be many better ways, whatever "Better" means. This whole thing on using a buffing wheel, especially one that is not hard, is making me lose my faith in the ability to do good reasoning. Maybe reasoning is not without its weaknesses. After all, prior to Galileo, science and philosophy were pretty much the same. After he dropped two items off of the Tower of Pizza (or was it the Tower of Pisa?), he found that actual controlled experimentation is far superior to "reasoning" in discerning the scientific truth. We had a philosopher with us on Knots not to long ago. He left of his own accord. I have long noticed (but this is only opinion) that philosophers are far more haughty and pompous than scientists. I believe that is because the philosophers limit their tools to their brains. If they believe they have reasoned to a conclusion, then they are happy. Unfortunately, scientists use reasoning to develop their hypotheses and tests, and then they are ruled by the experience of their tests. Having to live with real world experiences makes us more humble. The older I get, the humbler I get. We get a lot of folks on Knots asking "Which of these tools should I buy?" or Which of these techniques should I use? I try to tell them all that they shouldn't ask such questions. Rather they should try out the alternatives, when possible, and then use their experience to make their own judgments. If they can't tell the difference between two tools or two techniques, then the two are equivalent. It is possible that with further experience they will be able to make finer judgments, and will be able see differences which are smaller than the ones they can make now. Of course, some differences are too small to make any real difference in actual woodworking. Ain't life grand. I am happy as long as I have more problems to solve, and more wood to reshape. I read all of your posts. Keep up the great work. I continue to learn a lot from you. You keep giving me more things to test in the Lab. OOPS, I meant the workshop (which as you know, is "il laboratorio" in Italian). I have Hirsch bench chisels, which were factory polished. You pointed out the problem with dubbing the edges. I tested the chisels before and after flattening the backs. In flattening the backs, I went a bit further than I would have, in order to insure the edges are sharp. I was not able to discern any difference, before and after flattening the backs, which were pretty flat, (and getting rid of the dubbing)), but that may have been due to the fact that I didn't spend that much time testing them, or to the fact that I tested them "before and after", rather than "side by side".I find that with new woodworkers, there is all too often, a fear of not doing things perfectly, of using tools that are not "the best" or of using techniques that are not "the standard". I think that, all too often, we older woodworkers are the cause of that fear in the newbies, because we give them long lists of details needed to achieve "perfection". I work at NASA, where things have to be done very precisely. But interestingly enough, we have a saying that is often used around here: The Better is the enemy of the Good. Obviously it means that one can make things worse by trying to make them better than they need to be to get the job done. I think this is the case in woodworking as well as in the Space business. I work in the Astrophysics area of NASA, and one sees more photos of Einstein than anyone else. One of his famous quotes is "An explanation should be as simple as possible, but no simpler." I think that is a great thought that should be used in the training of woodworkers. We should make things as simple as possible for them, but no simpler. The problem, of course, is in the last phrase of that sentence "but no simpler". I would like to see FWW take a number of the thoughts we often see on Knots about "the best", and do some tests that actually get as "how much is good enough that good woodworkers really cant tell the difference any more.Sorry about the length of this. You could tell I was having fun thinking about it and writing it. We need to De-Mystify woodworking, as much as possible. The great thing about overly-long messages is that few, if any, people read them, and as a result, I get fewer flames in return. Besides, since I started on Knots, I have come to believe that most people write as much for their own benefit, as for the benefit of others. I like to hear myself talk. :-) Doesn't everybody? Ha ha ha.Have a good year.
Ciao, mio amico.
A presto,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Part of your posting <<I find that with new woodworkers, there is all too often, a fear of not doing things perfectly, of using tools that are not "the best" or of using techniques that are not "the standard". I think that, all too often, we older woodworkers are the cause of that fear in the newbies, because we give them long lists of details needed to achieve "perfection". I work at NASA, where things have to be done very precisely. But interestingly enough, we have a saying that is often used around here: The Better is the enemy of the Good. Obviously it means that one can make things worse by trying to make them better than they need to be to get the job done. I think this is the case in woodworking as well as in the Space business. >> reminds me of something that I learned the hard way and have long advocated: learn the "rules" so that you learn the principles behind the rules. Then, you can "violate" the rules at will to accomplish what you need to get done.
As a young LT in Infantry School, one of the most frequent and irritating answers to many of the questions that we asked was, "Depends on the situation." At the time, I (and most of my cohorts) absolutely detested that answer.
As we finished the course, went off to our respective units, and gained more experience in "the real world" of the Army, we came to realize that ""Depends on the situation" was, in fact, the best and most complete answer to many of our previous questions; we also eventually concluded that it was intentionally intended to cause us to think. One of the points that the instructors were trying to make -- and that we too-smart-for-our-own-good LTs took more than just fifteen minutes to pick up on -- was that one must learn and understand the principles and then learn to apply them to a specific sets of circumstances. Once one can do that, it becomes second nature, and a quick look at a (tactical) situation usually yields the required answer(s) quickly.
Well...after more than just a couple severely embarrassing FUBAR encounters with reality, and the equal number of resulting arse-lightening conversations with more experienced infantrymens, we finally began to get the point, and finally began to be able to do things quickly and effectively, instead of ponderously going through the prescribed procedure, step by excruciating step..... Ain't experience a wonderful thing? :-)
Anyway, I think that this basic idea transfers to woodworking very well: there are literally a dozen or more ways each to cut dovetails and M&T joints, respectively. What's the "right" way? Depends on the situation..... What tools do you have? How well can you use them? How many do you have to make? How much time do you have to make them? Etc., Etc., Etc. If you know the principles behind making the joints and know what the intended result is supposed to look like, than you can make them by any (combination of) method(s) you want.
At any rate, just a couple of thoughts that your post brought to mind.
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Tschüß!<!----><!---->
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"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."
--A.C. Clarke
Edited 2/15/2007 12:01 pm by pzgren
James,
D'accord. (as they say in France)Nice example from your military experience! One must know the basic principle and how to apply it to various circumstances. Nicely put.
Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
You work at NASA? Do you know Mike Linda?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Many, many years ago, when I was in college, I worked at a men's shop in a fancy part of town. The Taylor was a Jewish guy from a place then behind the iron curtain. He had be in camps during the WWII and was in Israel for the war of independence in 1946. Anyway, he had this saying, "experience is a hard teacher -- she give the test first and the lesson after." I feel that way around wood working -- I am learning by doing and I am glad the internet provides some teachers that will at least provide the lesson. Sometimes before the test, sometimes after, but always a good and helpful lesson. Thank you all.
Dan Carroll
highfive,
there are about 20,000 people working for NASA. I don't know Mike Linda. I just looked him up in the NASA Directory. THere is a Mike Linda at
Goddard Space Center. He is an SAIC employee who works there. I found his phone number. If you want it, send me a message via the email route, and I'll send it to you.Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I agree totally with you. If you learn from memorization, you can only do what you memorized. If any factor changes from what you memorized, you are hooped, because you don't understand the principles of the operation, and therefore can't extrapolate or improvise.
We have an expression up here that is very apropos to what you are saying. It's "your gonna fix it till its f___ed". Which means, leave it alone if it works, your "improvements" may only ruin it. I have found many times that this is true, especially if you are trying to just get the job done, and move on. Its part of setting priorities of work and movement through a particular job.
I have always been intrigued by the ability to strop steel on leather to sharpen it. I used to use a straight razor when I was forced to shave ( what a barbaric habit, scrape your face with an extremely sharp instrument, the first thing in the morning!!!), and was always amazes that flat leather could so change a blade. I still am, and although I still don't exactly understand the physics of it, I always strop my blades, and they are sharp. I was taught to drag the edge of my razor, with no weight on it, across my thumb nail; if you felt a drag, it was sharp, if not, back to sharpening. This works well, although harder to do with a chisel.
Pedro
Pedro,
I am not one to jump from one method to another. I have used sandpaper for a while, but it is a pain to take the glass and the paper to another site. I didn't spend much money on the sandpaper and the glass was free, so I am not one to throw money around. I am the one who gets yelled at for saying that most folks don't need the most expensive of everything. I have long been thinking of going to an medium India stone and a Norton translucent Arkansas stone, but just never made the jump. When this thread came along, I took the opportunity to ask a question about using a diamond stone instead of the India stone, since you would never have to flatten it. I could also use it to flatten the backs of chisels and plane blades. Up to now I have used sandpaper, and that seems to use up sandpaper. I have read about diamond stones in Leonard Lee's book and on the Tools for Woodworkers site, and the tone is not super positive. Napie doesn't like the idea but Philip does.I guess that I will take it easy, and ask a few more folks so that I have some ideas from some good folks, and then I'll find a way to try a diamond stone without buying it. Any advice you have on this matter is appreciated.
Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I use diamond stones all the time, and love them, but I use them mostly for knives, although I use a fine(green)one to tuch up my router bits.They don't plug with cuttings, and are always flat. I use paper and glass for my chisels and irons, but mainly because of the longer working surface. Iv'e put most of my stones away, and use one hard one for touch up for my leather knives.
Pedro
Pedro,
How do you care for diamond stones? I hear that you use water with them. After using them, do you have to do anything to keep them from rusting, other than wiping them down?When using sandpaper and glass for your chisels, what sequence of grits do you use after grinding on a wheel? When you go back to do a quick hone, do you go to 600 grit? Do you strop after that? If do, do you use diamond paste or a honing compound?I have been going from 220 grit down to 600 or even 2000 (when the mood strikes) after using a 1" belt sander to "grind" (not very often). I strop on leather without a compound. Sometimes for a quick hone, I use leather impregnated with red compound and then plain leather. I guess that you are recommending using paper instead of diamond stone for chisels, unless I can get a long stone at a reasonable price. Is that right?Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Well, I guess that I do it different than most here. I use some water to flush the filings off the dimond stone when it feels like it is loading up, other wise, they need no lubrication, some times you can just wipe with a rag. They are very low maintence. They don't rust.
When using paper, I start with new wet/dry 220 if it is really dull, or 320 if I am just resetting an edge, and then go to a warn 320, then to a 600, then to a worn 600. I know this sounds weird, but it works well, especialy if you are cheap(poor), as I am. The wore 600 has a grit probably similar to maybe a 1000 if there is one, or a 1200. I get a nice polish with that. I always finish off on a strop with red jewlers rouge, and then green rouge(LV). If I need to touch up an edge, I use only the strop until it isn't fast to touch up, and then I go back to the wore 600. When using paper, I always use a jig for the blade (LV mk 2), i just can't hold it constintly enough to do it by hand. I only use a grinder if there is major work to do on the blade, nicks and such, and sometimes I use a belt sander with 120 to start things off. It is easier not to over heat a blade on the belt grinder, that a grinding wheel. Ordinary sand paper works as well, but wears very fast, and is pretty course. Sometimes if an edge is round, I'll start with 150 or 180 alu/oxide, and then go to 220 wet/dry, and on up. I only have a large red diamond stone, which is a little course for chisels and planes, (it is hot damn for knife blades) so I never tried diamond for them, but I sure would I have a small folding green(fine) one I use for router bits. I would start with red and go to green, and then hone on a strop. I think that would be a winner for a job site. I used to carry some wet/dry paper, and then find a hard flat surface (counter top?) to work on. I have a piece of glass , as well as a piece of flat steel to work on.
Hope this helps.
Pedro
Pedro,
That is excellent info. I really appreciate the detail that you gave me on which grits you use and when, and on the use of honing compounds.
Thank you very much.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel
I haven't written to you in a while so diamond stones might be a good start. Like you, if I have something that works well and its not too costly, I am hesitant to switch to another method without some strong support. Here's an effort.
I like scary sharp and its easy and cheap. It has some drawbacks too. Its cumbersome to take with you on road trips and visits to work sites.
I do a good bit of work in shops and classes other than my own. I can put a couple of diamond stones in the toolbox and be gone.
I watched G. Hack do a little sharpening in his Vermont shop and I was impressed with the DMT diamond plates. They are not the final word but they do more than just sharpen the edge of my chisels well. They are great for leveling my water stones. Having a couple of diamond plates around is a very nice addition for sharpening chisels, plane irons, scraper blades and water stone flattening.
In my case, I like the Duo coarse/very coarse and the fine/extra fine 10" plates. They are double sided and take up very little space when you are on the go. They don't break and they are so easy to maintain. Unlike most of my cabinetmaker friends, I use the plates in an unusual way. I use them like a file. Example: I hold the carving gauge against the bench and polish the back of the gauge with the plate like a file. I can see the edge and hone it to the edge I want as I see it. Its a break in convention but I learned this from one of you fellow Virginians from Williamsburg-- W. Gusler.
Here is the addition: diamond paste. Mel this is the ticket for sharp like you may not know. I was a little hesitant at first but made the jump.
In the past, I would sharpen to about 1200 with paper and glass and go to the buffing wheel with a compound charged buffing wheel. Good stuff.
Why change? Why do it by hand? Good questions. Answer- you keep the edge flatter.
I use diamond paste on a block of wood(hard maple). I use 6 micron(1200grit) and then a little 1 micron(12000) and the back of the chisel or plane iron is so polished, you think you're looking in a mirror. So what?
It cuts like butta. I don't have all the latest A2 stuff but after the sharpening is done, it cuts very well- really well and no tear out anxiety.
If you want to go a little beyond scary scarp(petrified sharp maybe?) think about diamond paste and a little rubbing.
dan
Dan,
Great to hear from you. I dropped scary sharp a while back, not because it didn't work, but because it is such a pain to change the paper. I switched to the DMT diamond stones, for gauges, chisels and plane blades. I haven't gotten any diamond paste yet but I am going to try it. The reason is that I have an alternative. When I started chip carving, I got the two knives and the two ceramic stones that Wayne Barton has popularized. It turns out that they are the black and the white (superfine) ceramic stones. They did a wonderful job on the chip carving knives. I only used the black stone when I shaped the blade. After that, the superfine white stone, was all I needed. Stropping made things worse, not better. Those Spyderco superfine ceramic stones are MIRACULOUS. You don't use water or oil with the ceramic stones. After a number of uses, I clean them with a scrubbie and Bon Ami (Barkeeper's Helper). The superfine stone puts a mirror finish on a blade. When I am carving, the only stone I keep on the table is the superfine ceramic stone. The only problem with the ceramic stone is that if you drop it, it is a million pieces.I still haven't tried waterstones, because I have something that works, and I haven't tried diamond paste. I will try diamond paste. I might try waterstones, just because to be contrary sometime. They look like a lot of trouble, but they seem to work beautifully.Which diamond stone do you use to flatten your waterstones?I have heard that Hack uses diamond paste on a hard arkansas oilstone. Sounds interesting.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Which diamond stone do you use to flatten your waterstones?
I have heard that Hack uses diamond paste on a hard arkansas oilstone. Sounds interesting
Waterstones:
I have an old coarse diamond plate from DMT that I use. I just bought a 10" DMT Duosharp plate with Fine/Extra Fine sides. I use the coarse plate to flatten the waterstones. It takes a minute or two if you don't tear up your waterstones. Very quick.
In your earlier message you hint at the waterstone inconveniences. True, but they are nice for getting an edge. I think the biggest drawback on the waterstone is keeping it in a shop that goes below freezing at night. This is a challenge I have not had to live with in years.
I have 3 stones that lead up to about 2000 grit. Even when I use the stones to the finest level, I go to my chunk of glass with a small piece of 2000 wet dry paper applied to it.
At the risk of inviting the same old barrage of questions and comments: I use lacquer thinner for lots of cleaning purposes in a small tray outside the shop. I can use it again and again and pour it in a safe can when done. I take the glass with sandpaper applied with contact/spray adhesive and drop it in 2" of lacquer thinner and that paper floats of the glass a few minutes later. Fast and easy.
After the 2000 paper, its a choice. To the buffing wheel or a little diamond paste.
Hack tells me he uses 1, 3, 6 micron paste. Hack does put a small amount of the 3 and 6 on stones. The 1 micron(12000 grit) is applied to a piece of hard flat wood(maple) and used like a flat stone.
Mel to be truthful, I don't do every tool every time from beginning to end with the process above. Most of the time, its just a quick rub on the plate and back to work.
The diamond paste has been better than I hoped it would be. I just bought another batch in rather large quantities to save money. I will have plenty on hand of the 6 and 1 paste. If you want to try it out let me know. I'll put some in a small syringe and fire it off.
Dan,
You are both wise and generous. Many who have achieved your level of capability have become "experts", that is, they pontificate and are no longer interested in learning. You, on the other hand, are continually on the prowl for new knowledge and wisdom. Your "inner child" lives and thrives. May those traits be yours for a lifetime. Your message has spurred me on to try waterstones -- for the sake of gaining a working understanding of their capabilities and limitations. Thanks for the hint that using an old coarse DMT stone will flatten waterstones nicely. I have one, and will give it a try. If you get near someone with a Spderco ultrafine white ceramic stone, Please give it a try. You may never go back to the 2000 grit sandpaper of the buffing wheel. There is top notch furniture maker near here, named George Slack. He does very nice carved Chippendale. He only uses two stones - the ultrafine White, and the black Spderco stones. No muss, no fuss, and high gloss.Where do you order your diamond paste from?I am about to send you a message to your email address.
Thank you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel its coming. I get my paste from an industrial user and friend in the midwest. They use it in large quantities to polish granite and stone. He sells it to me in the smallest units(18gram syringes). Thats a bunch. On top of that, I have to buy it in lots of 5 syringes. No biggy. All of the woodworking stores sell 5 grams for around 15-20 dollars. I get the 18gram syringes for about 15.00. A nice savings but the paste goes a long long way my friend as you will see.
Ceramic stones. Love those things. I work with a group in a shop with a cement floor. You know the drill. I have experienced the crackle more than once. Now its diamond plates and "just pick it up please" and back to work. If you can keep the gremlins who drop things at bay, I would go for a set of ceramic stones. They are great. If not DMT and the grandkids.
later
dan
"Many who have achieved your level of capability have become "experts""
Mel, I know you know the meaning of the word, "expert". An ex is a has been and a spurt is a drip under pressure. LOL
Harry
Following the path of least resistance makes rivers and men crooked.
Harry,
I like your sense of humor. When one stops learning, one stops living.
Learning is what makes life interesting. Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
By the way, you'll need that diamond stone to flatten the ceramic stone. I finally broke down and flattened my 8000x ceramic stone on my 220x DMT diamond stone. It took about 15 min.Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
Thanks for the tip. How long did you use your ceramic stone before needing to flatten it with the Black DMT diamond stone? What gave you an indication that it wasn't flat any more?Did you make a grid on the ceramic stone with a pencil and then rub it with the diamond stone until the entire grid is gone?Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I've used it for about a year and it appears pretty dished. I use it mostly for knives and cabinet scrapers - it does a great job of removing a burr and polishing the edge. I didn't realize that it was flat when I went to flatten it - I just saw that one side was gray, indicating where the stone had been used the most and wanted to see if I could bring it back to it's brilliant white. When the ceramic stone is all one colour (white), it is flat.Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
As an alternative to diamond slurry we now make DiamondSandPaper™.
You use the same process flow as with ScarySharp and get a mirror polish in no time.
Chris
Chris Scholz
Dallas/Fort Worth
Galoot-Tools
I looked at that. What are the grit equivalents of that stuff?
As a rough guide (you are really comparing apples to oranges):
0.5 um: 15,000
1 um: 12,000
3 um: 8,000
6 um: 4,000
There is a lot more to sharpening than grit size. For example if your backing material is too thick/soft, you start dubbing the edges.
Chris
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Chris Scholz
Dallas/Fort Worth, TX
Galoot-Tools
Yeah, I know that Chris, but I just wanted to get an idea. That helps. Thanks.
Very impressive Chris.
This is interesting stuff. I will share this with some of my students. I love the paste Chris for the ease of throwing in the toolbox and being free to spread a little on a flat surface and go. Its just soooooooooo handy. The paper looks like a nice alternative.
dan
Dan,
Try Walmart automotive section...
roy
Sandpaper is for smoothing wood, get rid of that crap. Get yourself a good hard white Arkansas oil stone and be done with it. My L-N’s and Sweetheart chisels are quite happy and take the finest shavings you can imagine and I only spend 5 minutes at the sharpening bench. I’d rather work wood than screw around with “microns”….
Napie,
Do you go directly from the grinder to the hard Arkansas stone, or do you have an intermediate stone or two? What do you use to flatten the backs of chisels, etc?
Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Straight from the grinder, (a 6” high speed $49.00 Delta cheap special with 60 grit white wheels), I like a pretty deep hollow grind, and I only use the hard white Arkansas stone with WD-40 for lube. I flattened the backs on an old Norton India stone soaked in kerosene kept flat on a cinder block, but you only have to do that once.
So what would you think of replacing the India stone with a diamond stone? I am not trying to talk you into anything. I am just wondering about diamond stones. You do have to keep the India stone flat, as you said, but I hear that the diamond stones stay flat and keep their grit. Have you tried those things?
Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I guess it would work, I have only used them to touch up router bits, so my experience is limited, and they are costly. I think a better choice might be a very course, (250 grit), water stone. They are pretty cheap and easy to keep flat. My approach to sharpening is to keep it very simple. I was taught by my grandfather; in fact the stones I use are the ones I inherited from him. I also have his hard black Arkansas stone, but that was for straight razors, little to be gained on any woodworking tool. In our family, one person is the sharpener, that job was passed to me, (it skipped a generation), so I get all the kitchen knives etc. from the whole clan.
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I look at all this gimmicky crap like the “the super mondo scary surgical sharp method” and laugh my a** off. I mean, if that is what it takes, the how in the hell did the Townsends, Dominy’s, Mr. Chippendale, Maloof, Krenov and all the rest ever get any thing built. Read up on Tage Frid, he used a belt sander to grind his tools, he didn’t need fancy big dollar jigs, and I do not think his work suffered at all. Just my opinion but I get the impression that “woodworkers” who buy into this stuff spend way more time on figuring out what micron the grit is and never learn to hand cut dovetails. That stuff is just designed to separate you from your money, which could be spent on a new L-N #7 and 200 BF of nice walnut. Just my rant.
I know your bias on sharpening - keep it simple. That is why I asked you about the use of a coarse diamond stone.You mentioned the use of a belt sander by Tage Frid. I use a 1" belt sander. I happened to have it, and it works. I go from that to a few sheets of sandpaper (not fancy stuff) on glass. The glass was given to me by a glass shop. Sometimes I stop at 600, sometimes I go three more steps but it only takes a few minutes.I guess I am telling you that I agree with your philosophy on keeping it simple and cheap. I appreciate you answers.
Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Look, Mel, diamonds are forever, end of story. No further discussion.
Tell Napie he don't need no stinkin Ahcansaws and the rest of the hordes they don't need to be knee deep in sandpapers, wandering what lubricants to use. If I lived in USA I would conduct an auction to rid myself of all "stones" in my workshop that are not diamond stones. (,)Philip Marcou
Philip,
What sequence of diamond stones do you use (recommend)?
Do you go to a strop or diamond paste after the finest diamond stone?
Thanks,
Mel
PS - I am a slow mover. I have been using a 1" belt sander for grinding and sandpaper for honing. I am not rushing into any changes because it works. It is not expensive, and having a number of grits to move through, makes the honing easy. Napie's way of going from the grinder to the white Arkansas stone is the essence of simplicity. He still has to flatten his soft stone on a cinder block. I have heard of others using a diamond stone to flatten the soft stone. But if diamond stones keep their sharpening ability, and dont need to be flattened, then that is pretty simple. I have heard that even the finest diamond stone is not sufficient. I certainly would like your wisdom on the sequence of diamond stones, and what if anything comes after the finest diamond stone.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, I just use a red DMT diamond plate-I think it is 1200 grit. This gets things sharp chop chop and stays flat, and is good for any steel, not to mention tungsten. I use it with kerosene. I will challenge anybody who says this is not sharp enough for woodworking purposes.If I am useing chisels on abrasive woods like Makore I strop them often rather than go to the plate every time. Now and again I may hone a plane blade on either a Kingstone (with kerosene again) or with a $10 Chinese Special Natural Black Waterstone that actually cuts fast and gives a superb edge)-but really it is just in case I am missing anything.All I want is a quick process and a sharp edge. Going for "super sharp" is counter productive- two or three passes on the wood and it is back to "working sharp"- which is what I aim for anyway.
Shaving hairs, slitting papers, examining for candles, squinting through microscopes, ruining finger nails, consulting oracles or just mechanically doing the prescribed ten strokes on the bevel plus casual wipes on the backand back to work are for the birds-I Like to feel with my finger tip how sharp it is and that it is sharp right across-it may only take five strokes.
A good quality diamond plate certainly does keep its cutting ability- mine is ten years old.
Stick with the little belt sander- if it is what I think it is it is more like a belt GRINDER, which moves at a much higher speed than a belt sander. You know that I love belt grinders-but not belt sanders, for grinding, shapeing and sharpening metals.They also run cool.
" I have heard that even the finest diamond stone is not sufficient." That is a myth in need of de-bunking- scalpels, razors etc are all sharpened with the aid of diamonds. After all, we are just cutting wood,silica and all.Philip Marcou
Philip,
I really appreciate your words on the diamond plates. I am in full agreement with your ideas on sharpening. It is not a "happening", which needs a full orchestral background. The only thing that I wasn't sure of in your message was the difference between a belt grinder and a belt sander. I think I know what you mean. My machine is a Delta. The belt is 1" by 42", and it is upright. It is not one of the big 4" wide belt sanders. I have tried different belts on it. A 220 works well. I try to use a light touch. I also have a hand crank grinder with a six inch wheel. I wanted to see if I could do it like the "old guys" with one hand on the crank and one on the chisel. It only cost me $20. It works fine.Thank you very much.
Mel
PS the most important thing in woodworking is to enjoy it. The most important thing in talking about woodwork is to debunk the myths.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
I had no idea i was starting such an in depth discussion. It has been fun to sit back and read. My conclusioin-- there are some basic principals of sharping, but the details are as varied as the woodworkers that apply them. Viva la differance. I know what works for me now ( I go down to 1000 grit wet & dry and then strop on leather with rouge). Thanks
Dan Carroll
Mel,
"The only thing that I wasn't sure of in your message was the difference between a belt grinder and a belt sander."
The most important difference is that a belt grinder moves much faster-at least 1500surface feetper minute which is required to efficiently grind metal with minimal pressure and heat build up.Philip Marcou
Philip,
You said that you strop. Do you use plain leather or add a honing compound? or something like diamond paste on MDF?
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, I just use that red buffing compound that comes in a tube-merely rub it into a piece of 1/4 inch thick leather which I have glued onto a wood block shaped similar to what we used to see in a barber shop.
For ordinary softish High carbon steelslike pocket knives etc just plain leather will improve an edge provided it is already sharpish.
So how do you test for sharpness?Philip Marcou
Philip,
You asked "So how do you test for sharpness?"I probably do it the same way you do. I use an electron microscope.Actually not. I just touch the blade to my thumbnail. I also see if it cuts a shaving of wood nicely. But if I win the lottery, I might just get an electron microscope. How can you really check for sharpness without one? :-)Thanks, You have cleared up a number of points for me. I like your simply, straightforward, uncomplicated approach, which focusses on what works.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
>> But if I win the lottery, I might just get an electron microscope. How can you really check for sharpness without one? :-)You may laugh, but it's been done:
http://mse.iastate.edu/fileadmin/www.mse.iastate.edu/static/files/verhoeven/KnifeShExps.pdf
"Light the lamp, not the rat! Light the lamp, not the rat!!"
Rizzo the Rat, A Muppet Christmas Carol
Wow! I am a little dizzy from all this information overload. I always thought that sharpening was to bring the edge to a level of sharpness where the wood fibers are cut cleanly instead of torn. I agree with Philip that there is a place where tools are working sharp, and for me that is sharp enough; more becomes less after that point.
How to get there is a personal preference. I have used sandpaper when I had nothing else and I have used stones, both water and oil. I have even used diamond "stones". I use slip stones for the inside curves of my gouges, though I could use sandpaper wrapped around an appropriate diameter dowel.
At the end of the day there are some folks who don't stop sharpening their irons because they are focused on the act of sharpening and polishing the steel. This is OK if the aim is to achieve spiritual enlightenment through the Tantric act of sharpening, though they could have stopped way before, and done a wonderful job of cutting wood (which can also bring us to a spiritual awakening)...but what the heck - different strokes for different folks. JL
Mel...."I just touch the blade to my thumbnail. "
Not good, not good. Unless you hit finger nails with a hammer, they are virtually insensitive and will mis-lead you.Philip Marcou
Philip,
If a knife or a chisel is dull, it won't "catch" on a thumbnail. When it is sharp enough to catch, then I figured it was sharp enough to use. But sounds like there is a better way to test for sufficient sharpness.
What do you use?
Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, the point I am making is that any semi sharp edge will "catch" on your finger nail, plus if you are doing that everyday it will be bad for the nails.
I believe a reliable way is to feel the edge with a finger tip-one just gently touches the edge whilst moving the finger ALONG the edge at the same time. It is that slight drag that one feels.This way one knows 1) how sharp it is 2) where it is sharp 3)what type of sharpness 4)if the wire edge has been completely removed.No, the skin is not visibly cut.Dragging fingers across the edge is not reliable at all, but butchers seem to do that because they are more interested in a "saw" type edge.
I know there will be howls of derision on this, but what is the use of all these fancy sharpening methods if there is not a reliable way of gaugeing the sharpness, other than applying the tool to the work?Philip Marcou
Philip,
I will go out and stock up on Band Aids, and give your method a try. Of course, I will only use your method until I get my electron microscope.Obviously, it takes a while to learn skills which involve making finer and finer discriminations -- such as degrees of sharpness. I will attempt to train myself to do this.
Thank you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel , forget about bandaids-not needed.
It is not a skill either. If you want to try it I suggest you get a plane blade and sharpen as normal on an oilstone such as Norton Bear. Then get another blade and sharpen as normal on your finest waterstone or paper.
Then to test and compare the two,( since they should both easily shave arm hairs) use your index finger tip and gently touch down on the edge, at the same time the finger glides along the blade. There will be a slight drag-the more drag the sharper it is. It is amazing how sensitive normal finger tips are- eg I can differentiate between a Gillette Razor blade and a Schick- the former is always sharper when new.You should also be able to feel that the oilstone edge is slightly rougher-it would look more like saw teeth if a microscope were used.
So it is a gentle touch-just like the first time you touched the eyelashes of your first girl friend....
Anyway, all this is by the by, just part of reliably knowing the thing is sharp enough quickly.Philip Marcou
Philip,
I was just joking about getting the BandAids and the electron microscope. I will do the test you suggest. That should be a good way to learn to discriminate between levels of sharpness.
Thank you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Philip
Applying the tool to the work is the way.
The majority of the time we are simply touching up the tool edge, because it isn't damaged, only slightly dulled. Your finger test is about as scientific as I would go before actually trying the edge on wood.
When I carve I know my tools are sharp enough when I feel no resistance from the wood fibers. If I feel resistance, I give the blade a few strokes to bring it up to scratch and I put tool to material again. JL
Mon Ami, mais non.
Look at a typical plane-one goes through the rigmarole of re-assembly, goes for the wood to find that ....somehow the blade is not sharp. There was aprime example of this when Derek Cohen had a problem with a blade-only part of it was sharp-something that would have picked up immediately if he used his fingers.
What wood are you cutting that you "feel no resistance"? (,) And how do you compensate for sole friction/need for waxing?
I know I am going to take flak on this but I really have not seen a better way.I have only seen the finger way used by Very Old Timers of the British school and Italian carvers that worked in a factory with me. And knifemakers.I have been doing it all my life so maybe I am biased, but it would be fun to challenge some of the ScareySharpsters.Philip Marcou
Edited 2/22/2007 7:08 pm by philip
Philip
I use the finger method all the time, every time I pick up a blade it is a verification that I do without even thinking; it is second nature.
I knew that there would be a reaction to "no resistance". I do not mean that the wood becomes soft as butter, but, when I am in the groove, I can only describe it as carving wax, whatever the wood. The tools become an extension of me, doing what I want them to do. The wood doesn't resist, there is no tearout, the cutting edges are as sharp and as polished as they need to be...and, the piece of wood transforms into whatever it is meant to be. The Inuit carvers talk about removing the excess and releasing the the form within. It is at these moments that I understand them.
There may be some on this forum who will now peg me as a flake, if they haven't already, but if that is the case so be it. I am passionate about woodworking, carving and building. I am also passionate about total involvement in whatever I am doing when in a creative mode.
Scary sharp is something I do not even have a desire to know. The blade is either sharp and ready to work with; or it isn't, and it isn't. I do not have the desire to make sharpening the focus of the expression of my art. Sharpening is just something I do in order to be able to work wood the way I want to. JL
Edited 2/22/2007 9:00 pm ET by jeanlou
There was aprime example of this when Derek Cohen had a problem with a blade-only part of it was sharp-something that would have picked up immediately if he used his fingers.
Actually Philip I do use my fingers to judge sharpness. Have done so for many years. It is quite easy to tell the difference between the smoothness of a sharp edge and the serrated edge of one that it not.
I also use my fingertips to judge the set up of a blade in a plane - its depth projection and allignment. This is more accurate (for me) than sighting the sole (as, for example, Krenov is often pictured doing).
With regard sharpness, I have always considered that it is a case of "horses for courses". I really only get finickity when sharpening smoothers and paring chisels. Then I make the effort to use an 8000 waterstone. Otherwise I frequenty resort to a strop to maintain an edge. I have a few, my current favourite being a Horse Butt leather glued smooth side up to hardwood and used with Veritas green rouge. I couple of swipes on both sides of the blade as I feel it dulling, and it is quickly back up to speed.
I can also get a great edge from a hollow grind (on a 60 grit 6" high speed wheel) followed by a 1200 diamond stone and then green rouge on either a hard felt wheel or a leather honing plate on the disk sander (now that finally FWW has published - current issue - my belt sander grinder I am able to supply more details of this).
Anyway I think strops - and fingers - are great. I will be writing up a summary of the many I have experimented with in recent years (strops that is, not fingers!).
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek, I've forgotten what we were talking about-what were we talking about? (,)Philip Marcou
Phillip and Mel,
Its funny, I also test my edges with my thumb, jus slide my thumb eversolightly along the blade, if it cuts the skin so the edge pulls a little, then its sharp. I didn't want to mention that here, because I thought the saftey police would get me. Dragging eversolightly across your thumb nail is a good way as well, only a sharp edge will drag. I hope I don't give the impression that I am obsessed with the sharpening mystique, I went from stones to paper because I don't have the time or patience for the elaborate tenichniques multiple stones, flattening and whathave you, and my paper techniques are probably to basic for many, but my tools are sharp, and I don't spend a lot of time doing it.
Pedro
So being a sharpening newbie, I've been doing my research, trying to navigate my way through the seven million available options via helpful threads like these. Eventually, dull chisels demand SOMETHING MUST BE DONE! That means buying something, at long last, and getting after it.
For my simple sharpening needs, I finally settled on a Duosharp diamond stone in the Coarse/Extra-Fine variety, along with a Norton 4000/8000 waterstone and a Veritas jig. Grand total (after bargain hunting) about $150.
Is this the perfect solution? I certainly doubt it. But does it work? You bet. Fast, too. I never imagined that hard steel could disappear so quickly, effortlessly and precisely.
Like any other tool, this sharpening business seems to be a two part equation. Buying the right stuff is about 20% of the equation, and there's LOT'S of `right stuff' out there. The other 80% is learning how to use it, and I'm just getting started with that. But I'm getting good results already, and so I want to thank the board for leading me to some nice effective kit.
You have hit the jackpot, you found a system that you like and works. And not to expensive. Now you know how that works, you can try other stuff, and compare. I used stones for years, knowing full well that there was no other way, until, I forgot my stone and there was only paper around. When I got home I fooled around with that some more, and now I am a paper man.(is that better than a paper tiger)? Cheers
Pedro
those duo stones are really nice. I get a lot of work from them.
dan
But Philip, where’s the romance in a high tech diamond stone? Grandad would be turning in his grave! Just like if I used sandpaper to sharpen his Marbles hunting knife that I still use.
Napie
The whole concept behind scary sharp with sand paper is just what you described, keeping it simple. What's more simple than glueing a piece of paper to a flat substance like glass or granite, and rubbing away for 5 minutes. No water stones to flatten. No 10" grinding wheel to true up. No water pond to take care of, or stones to soak. Just rub and go!
I've used water stones, a Tormek, and now, the 3M paper we're talking about glued to granite. I bought 15 bucks worth of paper from Joel at toolsforworkingwood.com 3 years ago, and still haven't used it up. The only time I use my Tormek anymore is for re-grinding my carving tools. When a chisel dulls, I walk over to the sharpening bench, take 10 swipes on the grey paper, 10 on the green paper, and get my adze back to work.
I wouldn't exactly call the process "over thinking it."
Walnutz
That’s fine, whatever works for you. My comments are directed at the seemingly huge amount of time and money spent on something as simple as sharpening an edged tool. I just prefer five swipes on a hundred year old stone that never needs replacing, gluing or anything else. Plus, no glass or granite taking up space.
Also, for the price of a Tormek, I can buy an el cheapo grinder and have plenty left for a new L-N and maybe some nice timber.
Your interpretation of dubbing as convexity is correct. For turning and carving tools, a little dubbing is fine, because you have good control over the orientation of the cutting edge with respect to the workpiece. Where dubbing is more of an issue is with chisel and plane blade backs (the cut is no longer registered to the flat plane of the back) and, to a lesser extent, with chisel and plane blade bevels (a convex edge reduces the clearance angle in a bevel-down configuration, which can interfere with a clean cut).
-Steve
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