Replies

1. 
   pzgren | Dec 27, 2006 01:57am | #1

   BigFrank,

     Is your stone flat? If there is a groove (even a slight one) in your stone, that could be cambering your blade. Also, check to see if your roller on your jig is cambered/curved/bent along its width.

     Try this to help prevent side-to-side rocking of your jig (assuming that your roller is "flat" along its width): set your iron/chisel up in your jig and firmly grasp your jig with your hand(s), as normal. Extend your arms out so that they are straight (relaxed but won't bend -- but not tensed-up "muscled stiff"), holding the jig at the appropriate angle on the stone. Adjust your feet so the one is behind the other (like you were walking). Now lock your wrists, elbows, and shoulders (just enough that they won't bend). Move your entire upper body as a unit -- kinda rocking from your hips -- to move your jig & iron/chisel along the stone. Essentially what you are doing is moving your belly button a couple of inches forward and backward to move your torso, arms, and the jig as one.

     I free-hand sharpen, and when I occasionally have a problem "getting it to work," I've found that this technique keeps the angle of the iron/chisel on the stone uniform and prevents any forward/backward (rolling) or side-to-side movement of the iron/chisel contact surfaces on the stone; the result is a reliably square and sharp iron/chisel.

     Hope this helps.

   Beste Wünschen auf ein glückliches und sicheres Neues Jahr!

   Tschüß!

   Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!

   James

2. 
   Samson | Dec 27, 2006 03:17am | #2

   I've never used the Mk. 2, but i have teh Mk. 1 and I do use Norton waterstones (among others).  I don't think you've given us enough information to assess your problem.  Assuming the stones are flat, and that you haven't put the cambered edge roller in your Mark 2, here are a few things to try/consider:

   - how are you moving the blade over the stone?  rubbing forward and back or one direct or what?  While other methods may work, I find it easiest to grind only on the pull stroke.  Pull straight back lift, set and pull straight back again etc.

   - What are you doing with your fingers as far as pressing down on the blade in front of the honing guide as you grind?  If you apply uneven pressure, you will grind an uneven/curved bevel.  If you can't figure out how to apply a more even pressure, don't press much at all - just let the stone do the work.

   - keep checking you progress as you go.  For example, if you look and see a bevel forming that is not parallel to the edge, shift the blade in the guide to compenstate and retighten.  Take a pull, then check again, etc.

   - to restraighten your curved blades, just go to work with your coarsest grit stone.  I like to use a DMT Diamond stone coarse/extra coarse (black and blue dots) for this kind of shaping.  It should be relatively easy to get a straight edge - indeed that's why veritas makes the cambered roller - people saw the straight edge only cabaility as a drawback (you want a slight camber on your plane - not chisel - blades).

1. 
   BigFrank | Dec 27, 2006 03:38am | #4

   Okay, I have been trying to keep my stones flat. As for how I am holding the plane, I try to keep my thumbs behind and underneath the blade on the step above the roller (which I assume is for such a position). I keep pressure from a few of my fingers on top of the blade near its front edge.
   I push forward on the jig applying pressure and then pull back (not trying to sharpen on the pull) and do it again... and again... As for the camber - its not so much a camber as it is an arc. If I put a square to the blade it touches in the center but it arcs away on both sides of the center. Its not so much a radiused edge (as you might want on a smoothing plane) as it is a curved edge (as you might want on a scrub plane - but a bit gentler).

1. 
   Samson | Dec 27, 2006 05:50am | #6

   Try sharpening on the pull only instead of the push only. 

   Apply no more pressure to the guide than absolutely necessary to keep it in even contact with the stone. 

   Apply even pressure across the width of the blade, but not too hard, just firm even contact with the stone.

   These things work for me.  Give 'em a try.  Maybe it'll do the trick.

2. 
   highfigh | Dec 27, 2006 03:42pm | #7

   Any curve has at least one radius so there's really no reason to distinguish between a curve, arc, camber and radius. Camber is a curve so they all basically mean the same thing- it's not straight across. Scribe a reference line across the iron from the shortest corner to the other side, use both hands to hold the guide after making sure the stone is flat and make sure you keep the pressure in the center of the iron. If the stone is flat, the center should removed quickly and it should return to the way you want.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

1. 
   highfigh | Dec 29, 2006 02:39am | #10

   If you were to scribe a reference line from one side to the other at the point where the cutting edge meets it, what is the distance from the line to the cutting edge, at the center of the iron? I have the little, cheap, grey sharpening guide that you can buy from WoodCraft, L-N, Lee Valley, etc and it was about $10, on sale at the WoodWorking Show. I use silicon carbide paper (wet) on a 15" square granite tile, checked for flatness. My edges are very straight and as it's called, "Scary Sharp". If you talk to the people selling sharpening stones, they will all tell you that you need to flatten them on a surface that is known to be flat.If you go to the WoodWorking Show, check out the Lie-Nielsen booth and watch him sharpen his iron. If he's not too busy, ask him about it and you'll see him flatten the stone before using it, unless it's only the second time he's used it since the last flattening.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

3. 
   Handrubbed | Dec 27, 2006 03:21am | #3

   First, a cambered plane blade is not a bad thing, necessarily...only when you want them to be square!  Many people advocate radiused edges on smoothing planes. The problem you have most likely is that your stones have become dished in the center with use.  It doesen't take much to have this happen to Nortons.  They need to be flattened after every few blades are sharpened, or sooner.  I flatten on 220 grit w/d sandpaper on a granite block.  It won't hurt to have the corners relieved a little anyway, just to avoid plane tracks.  The balance of the blade can be dead straight and will turn out that way with the MkII and a flat Norton (8000?) stone as your last one. 

   As far as your technique and hand size...try to put most of your pressure on the edge of the blade and not on the roller of the jig.  You are shapening the the iron...not rolling the stone like bread dough!  Since you have a curve now, you may want to go back to a straight reference edge with a 1000 grit Norton (I use a 800 King stone).  Then go to 4000 and finish with a few light swipes on the 8000.

   I am going to experiment with a horse hide strop (used dry on the smooth side) to see if that makes a difference as a finishing touch.  I'll let you know...it's coming this week.

1. 
   ptu | Dec 29, 2006 11:51pm | #12

   You will love that strop, put a little jewelers rouge on it. It polishes so nice, and makes a lovely edge.

4. 
   DonStephan | Dec 27, 2006 04:15am | #5

   After watching the Rob Cosman video on sharpening I check my water stones almost constantly, and have found that they dish out within a minute of use on a plane blade. You can mark the bevel with a Sharpie or other felt tip pen, and with a verified flat stone (flattened and/or checked with straightedge) hone a few strokes and see where the bevel is contacting the stone. Rob's trick to use two 1000 grit stones to flatten each other I thought was inspired. Wet water stones don't flatten well on sandpaper, and over time the Norton grooved flattening stone will itself need flattening on sandpaper or other media.

5. 
   MikeHennessy | Dec 28, 2006 03:25pm | #8

   Like some of the other posters, I'm thinking the problem lies with the stone, not the guide (the MK2 is a nice system) or technique. For me, keeping a soft waterstone flat is the hardest part of the sharpening drill and I'd rather spend time flattening wood rather than stone. That's why I abandoned stones and switched -- first to the "scary sharp" technique (which I still use on occasion) and later to DMT diamond plates, followed by honing on a charged cardboard wheel.

   Mike Hennessy
   Pittsburgh, PA

6. 
   mgumaer | Dec 29, 2006 12:45am | #9

   Frank,

   It's hard to imagine how the guide could be the problem.  Like many, my first guess would be the stones aren't flat.  I'm not sure what you do to flatten them but I would scribble a pencil line back and forth across the stone the length of the stone and take a couple of swipes with your flattening method of choice and see if the pencil lines have disappeared across the entire stone or on the perimeter.  If the lines are still present in the center, you've got a dished stone.

   I have the same guide.  I try to put even pressure across the front edge of the blade and no pressure over the guide.  If things continue to go badly, you can always put more pressure in the center of the blade.  I guess it is also at least theoretically possible that the blade itself is deformed (cupped to some extent mayber) but that would seem pretty unlikely).  It just seems like from your description, your getting way too much curve for the standard roller.  Lee Valley actually sells a "camber roller assembly" because it is difficult to get a curved edge with the standard roller because it is so wide.  Good luck.

   Matt

7. 
   Sean2112 | Dec 29, 2006 07:02am | #11

   Is the back of the iron flat?  Everyone seems to think it's the stone but I can't help but think it has to do with the iron itself.

1. 
   DavidCockey | Jan 01, 2007 04:08am | #14

   I suspect you're correct that it's the back. I had a made in France Hock blade which I couldn't get to sharpen without a camber using the MKII jig and flat Norton waterstones. Turns out the back of the blade had a camber. Any camber in the back of the blade will be magnified at the edge.

8. 
   ptu | Dec 30, 2006 12:01am | #13

   this is one of the reasons that I went to paper on a hard flat surface. I haven't flattened a stone or had a curved blade since. I think uneven pressure across the face of the blade is the cause of your curve. If the pressure varies between your hands at all, it will cause a curve across the blade.