I operate a new cabinet shop, very new, and have just recently been able to start buying sheet goods by the unit. Until now we would just buy what we need for each job and just store everything on sawhorses and 2x4s.
I’ve seen plywood stacked vertically and horizontally and am wondering if those of you with some experience have an opinion on this.
We are blessed with an outrageous 5000 sq/ft shop, so space is not an issue, but continued flatness of the wood is.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Sincerely,
Kelley Hamby
Replies
Fourquarter,
5000 sq ft?! Migosh, you could sublet to a circuis and still have plenty room!
Stack vertically. That way you can pull a sheet to see what you have without needing to move everything above it. Also, better for stability.
Rich
All the cabinet shops I've seen store them vertically. It's much easier to pick thru the sheets, and to pull them out. I think it will take up less space as well.
Somewhere back in earlier issues of FWW was an article showing a cabinet shop that stored bow-coo (that's French, LOL) amounts of plywood on top of some low storage cabinets. The way the whole thing was designed, the sheets could come directly off the truck onto the platform and be tilted up into vertical storage. The platform was also the same height as the tablesaw, and positioned so that the selected sheet could be pivoted out, laid flat on the platform and scooted over onto the TS (sure hope I'm remembering this right). Underneath the platform were a number of storage drawers for tools and hardware. Quite a tidy little arrangement if you have the room for it.
Maybe I'll get lucky and spot that issue with a quick looksee at the magazine boxes. Some kind of inverted A-frame is in my dream-design for sheet goods, so I can tilt the sheets back and forth without having to hold them up.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I don't know the technical specifics, but let me make a fool of myself anyway! Vertical storage in my opinion would be preferable to horizontal storage. Why? As previously stated it's easier to inspect and remove to start. Additionally, the fibers will be less likely to stress and eventually warp (if left long enough). The grain fibers would be longitudinal, in compression, but supported by 8' of laminate in the vertical. In the horizontal you would basically be bending them in half with only the width of the plywood to support them.
Just to play the devils advocate and perhaps spark more of a discussion I'll propose the opposite in regard to the fibers, forces acting upon them etc.
When sheetgoods are in vertical storage they rarely stay truly vertical, they usually lean at a diagonal with their top ends resting on one side of the bin and their bottom edges against the diagonally opposite. If this isn't the case, then I usually find them leaning to some extent. Now with the wood only supported by two edges, I would think it would have a tendancy to bow, this is certainly true of the thinner sheets, and by extension, I susspect the same is true of 3/4" material, it's just not as noticeable.
However, if the panels were stored on a flat surface such as an MDF table, then what ever effect gravity had would be equally dispersed among the largest surface area. It seems in this situation the chances for warping are greatly reduced.
As far as the benefit of leafing through your stock to pick a certain sheet, that just doesn't come up all that often as we use the same type of wood for almost every carcass we build. If a sheet is particularly bad, we set it aside and use it for toe-kick, jigs or fixtures (as the case may be).
So anyone with thoughts on the "horizontal theory" please chime in.
Thanks,
KH
since your buying large quantities of the same type of plywood you shouldn't need to do much sorting. i've had some plywood warp pretty badly that i had leaning up against my garage door for a while. if i had the space i would store the plywood i have horizontally. i would stack it ontop of a flat surface that will stay flat and you'll never have any problems. every plywood supplier i've seen stacks theirs horizontally, and i'm sure it's not only because it's easier to get a forklift under it. i'm sure you guys will use a lot of dollies and it's much easier to just slide a sheet ontop of one from horizontal then from vertical (especially with 1" mdf) i'm assuming you have a forklift, and it's much easier to take it off the truck and lay it down then it is to have someone go to the effort of stacking it vertically. hope this helps
andrew
Andrew:
I built a vertical storage rack in my basement by attaching 2 x 4's to the wall and extending out a base that has a 5 degree angle to let them lean slightly toward wall. I attached 2 x 4 arms in front so the sheets can't get away when flipping through. I clamp the sheets by placing Quik-Clamps over outside piece and attachments I made on the wall to hold them tightly together. I got adjustable shelving above the sheets that I store board lumber on. I saw the idea in a mag a while back. May be same FG mentioned (she is very alert).
I have a my shop in a dedicated garage so this system only takes up a wall in basement. Saves room for all other yard tool, paint, ladders and all other junk that's not related to wood. I can get all (buchoo) I need at one period on it.
With your situation if you don't have to sort, I agree you should store horizonal. I eliminate the wrapage with clamps. You got plenty of room and don't have to sort cause of quick turn-over unless you're leasing part of that monster for local conventions. Ha. You might consider running 2 x 4's across top of horizonal stacks and devising way of clamping to floor or base at nite. Gravity will eliminate all but the top sheets from wrapage. Then again with the quick turn-over, probaly won't matter.
Good luck with the business..
Sarge.
We've got the same problem. I've got both vertical and horizontal storage and both have their drawbacks.
Convenient lumber storage in a large or small space is a common problem. I have yet to see a good solution that doesn't take up valuable floor space. Most suppliers use heavy duty racks that most of us can't afford and forklifts.
I've seen sheet metal storage racks that I think will work in the Grainger catalog, but for the cost.......
I'm open to any ideas for a good way to store both sheet goods and solid stock.
Ed. Williams - GACC Dallas
ED:
First, let me state that I'm just a dumb ole country boy from Ga. I'm not an expert on anything. Fortunately, I've been able to solve most of the problems confronted me by using logic and common sense. I am not a cabinet shop, so the solution I posted to Andrew (which was supposed to be to the original poster, by the way) is the solution that works best for me. I am a lone 30 year woodworker with ample size shop and basement storage area. I don't need large quantities of sheets or board footage on hand as I can only spend about 30 hours a week there. This is not a living for me, just a passion.
I've been sitting here drinking coffee and pondering your questions. If I were there, it would be a little clearer picture. I'm guessing you are a cabinet shop by reading b'tween the lines? More that one person? Ceiling heights? Machines locations (wall or center)? How much space left over after machinery placed and where? Are you currently efficient as to where you have machines now in relationship to traffic flow? How often will your current suppliers deliver and will they? What problems does your current situation curtail?
If you want to give me some details I will be glad to think about them. I enjoy solving problems! Perhaps the answer may be you just need a larger facility. I'm aware of premium price tag on leasing space Dallas area. By the way, you mentioned that you saw metal shelving Grainger that might solve your problem. I think you referred to high price. That same metal shelving could be built using 2 x Yellow Pine or Spruce re-inforced with a little angle iron for probaly 1/4 the cost. Maybe less!
Now, if your a lone woodworker like me and I've mis-understood the context of your question; need to know that too. I would ask some different questions before I attempt to answer. I don't know, the answer may just be You Buy 4 Bag Of Groceries And You Take Out 6 Bags Of Trash-How Does That Happen? Don't know, just one of lifes mysteries! Remember, I'm just a dumb ole country boy from Ga.
Reply if you wish, I'll be happy to take a stab at it!
Best Regards..
Sarge.
Hey Sarge,
Thanks for offering to brainstorm. I'm just a dumb old country boy from East Texas making a living in the big city.
We are mostly a trim company doing high-end stuff. We are asked to build a lot of cabinets. We just upgraded our shop to where we have access to about 3200 SqFt. We've got the tools spread out in one area.
I've got 13' ceilings, but no budget or room for a lift truck. All the material is hand unloaded off the suppliers trucks.
My main concern in material storage is warpage. We usually use up the material as fast as it comes in, but there is always a sheet or two or a board or two left over and storing that is a problem. I now have a few sheets of just about any species you could name so flat storage is a problem. digging out one sheet of quartered white oak from a stack of mixed species is a pain. And flat storage of solid stock is the same problem. How do you pull out one piece of 6/4 mahogany when it's at the bottom of the pile? Standing solid stock on end is OK, but the weight of the outside boards warps the ones against the walls.
Our vertical plywood storage is not much better. Trying to sift through 15 sheets of plywood can be dangerous. Even with support on both sides, the sheets get so wedged in together at the bottom that you have to lift them somewhat to pull them out, and then it's a two man job. You could lift up and over and out, but that requires about 5' of head room above the rack.
I'd love to have some sort of horizontal stackable rack system that the big boys have, but you're talking about thousands of dollars in commercial heavy duty racks to store a bunch of free plywood.
I also love to solve problems, but this one has me and my crew baffled. No one has come up with an idea that we all like.
All suggestions appreciated.
Ed.
Hello, GACC! Looks like we're refugees here.
This is my plan for the shop i move to this winter, all 1500' of it:
Lumber goes on 3/4" pipes inserted in holes drilled deep into the studs at a 5* angle. One board deep, only a few boards high. I have a 4x8 rack now and the piece of zebrawood i want is always under a foot of 14" wide padauk that i moved before when i needed to get to the koa--i've been known to say, "Oh, dear me!"
I'm thinking of putting all the lumber storage on the wall under the bench that holds the cutoff saw, though i'm not sure that will be enough storage since i usually have a 500-1000 feet pile on hand.
I saw a slick trick, maybe in FWW, of mounting a roller under (in front of?) the leading edge of vertically stored sheet stock. I think i may just put rollers under the whole stack in the new place, like having it on a full extension slide. I mostly wrestle with BBP in 5x5 or 5x6 sheets, but it's still a toss up who wins now as the stack merely leans against the lumber rack. I'm thinking to sandwich the ply stack between two sets of storage cabinets back-to-back, floor-to-ceiling, so it can't get away and maim the shop dog.
SPLINTIE:
Sorry to intrude as your post was not directed at me, but your plans for new shop caught my attention. Actually planning it out in advance is excellent logic. I did the same years ago and it has paid off emmensely. I threw away all the open base stands and built heavy-duty cabinets that I can store related items so I don't have to go far to retrieve. Saves many steps and frustration looking for them.
I have seen your idea with pipes in action. You might consider drilling extra holes between where you actually place your pipes in case you want to adjust height if the need requires. The idea with the rollers is good. I have formica laminated on the base-plate my sheets sit on edge on. Slides very easily and that's a plus when you're working alone as I do.
I'm new to Knots so I just thought I'd compliment your advance planning. As per ED's post, he mentioned down under. Are you from there?
Sorry for the bother and have a good day!
Sarge..
Sarge,
Thanks for the plywood storage idea. I'll think on it this week.
Neither splints nor I are from OZ. I was referring to the mess we had when Breaktime broke-up. Me and splints are old timers (that is we've both been posting around Taunton for a long, long time).
Not too many old timers left here since the facelift.
Rev,
Got a crew of 25 men. We don't all work in the shop. We tag in and out as need be. It's a lot of work keeping up with that much work, but I've got some good help.
I hope to post more often here at Knots and maybe Breaktime too. I'm finally starting to get use to the changes. Long time coming for an old man like me.
Thanks,
Ed. Williams - GACC Dallas (that's who I used to be called here until the garden people over the fence changed my name. Now I can't seem to get it back) I hope you don't mind the large print, it's easier for me to read.
Here's a link to the knowledge base at woodweb.com. This discussion says that if the lumber is dry, it will not warp, no matter how it's stored:
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Wood_Storage_Vertical_or_horizontal.html
Rich
Edited 8/12/2002 3:51:13 AM ET by Rich Rose
Rich:
Went to website you posted. Thanks for the suggestion. I'm new to cyber-world and been working alone for a while. Didn't get many opportunities to discuss woodworking except on local level and shows here in Atlanta. We have Highland Hardware here which has been a mecca for southern wood-workers since the 70's. They have hands-on workshops every week-end and seminars with well-knowns often. Maloof will be there in Oct. Seen him twice and will probaly do it again. He's a very pleasant person to be around where he talking shop or not.
Do you know of any other sites or mag articles that support the theory dry lumber won't warp? I have not seen much on the subject in mags. I did my own experimenting back in the 80's over the course of all four distinct seasons we have here locally. I've drawn my on conclussions from that and may decide to experiment again just to test my theory. I didn't have the advantage of moisture meters back then. I still maintain my theory until I can either dis-prove it or re-confirm. The web-site said dry lumber won't warp no matter how you store it, unless it gets wet again. It gave no source of information and under what conditions those conclusions were drawn. Back in grade school I read the world was flat. I heard someone mention recently that somebody has come along and made the assumption it is round. I don't know; but, I'm sure curious!
If you are also curious, reply and we might run a little experiment. One in Ga. and one in Hawaii and see if we come up with compatible results in one area that has relatively even temperatures and humidity as opposed to an area that has extreme higher humidities in summer and winter and mild in spring and fall. Might be interesting.
If you are busy or not interested, disregard. I understand totally and apoligize for taking your time.
Thanks for your post..
Sarge.
Sarge,
The world is round?!!! Why am I never informed of these things?
Oh, well.
No I don't have any other info about lumber storage. I assume that if the info is correct that the wood needs to be kept from getting any undue moisture - maybe high enough atmospheric humidity would be enough to allow it to warp.
That site seems to have some pretty knowledgeable people. You could leave a note for that poster.
What's the design of the experiment? If I can, I'l try it. Right now my "shop" is the typical 2 car garage.
Rich
Rich:
Thanks for the quick reply. Yep, I guess we old folks are not informed because we're either napping or people think we might go into cardiac arrest! ha.. I remember when I heard a conversation about there being no Santa.. I have to admit that I was so upset I had to stay out of work a few days! Now that's hard to swallow. Still have my doubts.
I have a little simple experiment we might conduct to see how moisture affects wood. I won't go in detail to-nite as I try to do all my serious thinking in the morning when I'm more alert. I have come up with certain theories over the years either based on reading or common-sense from observation or experimentation I have conducted. One reason I learned how to use this computer. I have read FWW since the 70's when it came out in black and white. As you probaly know there was not a lot of good info available in those days and most had to be learned from passing from craftsman to wanne-be. I am self-taught from reading, seminars (been to some by now Hall of Famers) and trial and error. I have never stopped trying to learn as I believe no-one knows it all including the Hall of Famers. They will also tell you that as I have asked. I have learned a few new things since I got on this computer. ( 220 v 120 ) is an example. I am not an expert at anything but a student in search of new approaches and techniques and technology in woodworking. Even if they dis-prove some of the theories I now have. (this is a long para-graph)..heh..
I have a large impact with begginers in a new club formed in my locale. They ideally thing that if you've been woodworking a long time you're an expert! I have 189 para-chute free-falls and a host ot military jumps. That doesn't make me an expert, it just makes me more experienced than someone that has jumped 188 times if I were paying attention. An I was paying attention, trust me!
Bottom line: I do not want to impart information to them that mis-leads or damages their enthusiam for woodworking. I do not feel that is my duty as a craftsman to pass mis-information to the people that hopefully will take the reins when I can no longer hold a tool in my hand.
I will get back in a few days after I sit down with a cup of coffee and do some thinking about my approach to the experiment I'm considering. Might take several months but I have a lot of patience. No major lifting or expense. Any expense occurred I will cover. (Checks in the mail).
Just thought it might generate a little interest as I hold everyones theories and opinions sacred. I too believe in freedom of speech as long as you don't damage others. I also believe in freedom of choice. I't just makes good common sense and for us dumb ole Ga. boys that pretty much says it all!
Thanks for your interest and best regards for the evening..
Sarge.
Sarge,
OK. I'm game. (Or I'm gamey - which ever is greater).
Rich
Rich:
Transmission recieved! Check your equipment and move to the door. Stand-By for Sit-Rep ( situation report )....
And someone questioned why people call me Sarge. I don't know? Maybe just cause that's who I am! Kind of dumb I suppose but at least you know who you're talking to. There's a lot of generals but just one Sarge! Probaly a good thing...
Meanwhile as this will only require some very simple procedure, crank up those tools and enjoy that fine weather you folks have down Hawaii way. I really feel sorry for you on that one... YEAH!!
Have a good day as I head off to my part-time..
Sarge..
Here's an experiment already done, that many others have probably already done, or are doing right now!
The extra "leaves" of our dining room table get stored in the closet (like they do in prolly 90% of homes that have extra dining room table leaves) where they stay for most of the year. They lean at any old angle (slightly off vertical) that my wife or I set them. I've never given a thought about their warping. They have been in the closet on occasion for 2 years, but generally see duty at Thanksgiving or Christmas.
They are solid Teak, 3/4" x 20" x 48". No warp. Nada, zip, zilch, zero, zed, nope, uh uh.
Rich
Rich:
Are they sealed with finish or un-sealed? Also, I would guess your house is heated and air-conditioned and stays at approximately the same humidity as opposed to a shop enviroment. My shop will vary as much as 25 degrees in a single day in summer and winter. Humidity is a killer in the summer down south.
Enjoy that nice weather
Sarge..
They are finished, of course. But finish does not seal wood, it only slows moisture transfer. The house is not air conditioned. Temperature changes are not extreme, but humidty can change a lot.
Rich
Rich:
I got busy and din't have time to reply last nite. Been trying to catch up other threads as I got so wrapped up with this idea. Ha. If you finished the way I do it will seal. That's another thing I got in Forum for. I been developing skill and techniques fo 30 yrs. but have been known to blow a finish in 30 minutes. Guess I'll spend the next 30 working on that! Heh...
Lets make sure we're on same page. I assumed the site you sent me to was reff
ering to un-finished lumber in storage for use in building. What you said about your finished teak tripped a light. I'snt teak pretty tight grained? Never had the pleasure. It makes me wonder if there might be a relationship between type of wood (grain tightness,etc.) and amount of shrinkage or expansion with humidity. This might get real complicated and require some extensive testing. I find what the web-site said to be a blanket statement. I still think there should be an * at bottom as to clearer explanation of under what conditions. I could be totally wrong but I'm sure curious.
I also thought of somthing else I didn't originally. Do you have a moisture meter or one you could borrow? If we are to compare results various areas we need to be comparing apples to oranges, I suppose. Also, I was under impression that you folks didn't have that much humidity. See, I'm still learning. Been through there twice, but no extended stay.
What kind of wood do you have excess to locally. Is most kiln-dried or air-dryed. Guessing kiln? I ordered a book by Bruce Hoadley ( UNDERSTANDING WOOD ) today. Should have it by the week-end. I hear it is excellent. I suppose I should read on various wood characteristics before I head into some major experimentation. May have to do some major charting and testing with moisture meter. It's looking like my simple experiment is turning into a major thesis. I never had the opportunity to do one, so maybe it's time while I still can.
Well, keep you posted. Noticed there might be a storm brewing (lost of a loved one). You probaly caught it. I bought a bullet-proof vest a couple of weeks as it seems we might need one from time to time. I'm not getting involved. Gonna watch quietly from a hide. Ha.
Have a great day..
Sarge.
Sarge,
I only mentioned my teak table leaves as one example of the practice of storing wood almost vertically. I am sure that all the variables extant influence the outcome in some way, but until shown otherwise, I'll accept that properly dried wood doesn't warp under its own weight.
I have most varieties of goods available, kiln-dried tropical and domestic hardwoods, hardwood plywood, softwood plywood.
Rich
Rich:
Just going to shut her down when your message came. I caught what you said about under it's own weight! Now I think I see the point you were trying to make. I think a moisture meter will give me a better result than my original test as I'm not so sure what is supposed to be kiln-dry shows up that way on the retailer rack. Not that I would think that anyone would take any short-cuts to the cash register. heh...
Reading some threads and you made good call on band-saw blade and rivers also. I use your blade and haven't seen one that is better yet. The rivers on the saws we have in the U.S are junk compared to the European ones. I've machined my own.
Catch you down the road as I've got much to do as I've become very interested in this project I'm going to undertake.
Thanks for the thoughts..
Sarge..
Sarge,
Could you elaborate on the bandsaw blade comment. I need to buy some and am confused about tooth configuration to order and what are the best for longevity.
Thanks
TDF
Tom:
My pleasure sir. First, I am no expert. Been doing this 30 years so the information I give will be my opinions and theorys. If you have read the rest of this thread, I think you have gathered that in already.
I think you should make an investment in Mark Duginske's Bandsaw Handbook. The bandsaw is a temperamental machine that requires accurate adjusting to make it do what it is designed to do. It's not that hard, but like everything else in your shop; you need to understand the principles of how it functions and why. Then comes developement of skill with that particular tool.
There are many blade teeth and configuration choices. Confusing, at first yes. TPI means teeth per inch(2 4 6 etc). Generally speaking the fewer teeth the more agressive the cut with a sacrifice of smoothness. There is also more space between teeth that allows better waste removal. (Gullets) The higher number of teeth the finer the cut and smoother cut marks but with a loss of waste removal. (slower feed rate to compensate).
Blade width? The narrower the blade the tighter the radius it can cut. The sacrifice is less stability of blade strenght. You would use 1/8" if your doing extremely sharp outside curves and wider as you have less extreme requirements.
The bandsaw can do various jobs, but outside cuts and re-sawing is what I prefer it for. If you resaw you really need at least 1/2" blade and 1 HP as your pulling a big load. More is desirable if you do extensive re-sawing especially in courser hard-woods.
I won't get into skip-tooth and hook,etc. It is difficult to tell you about in the alotted space. That's why you need to read a Duginske's book. Just to give you idea skip-tooth means just that. If you have a 1/4" 6 skip-tooth (which is what I think is the best all around blade for curves, croos-cutting, etc.) you have a quater inch blade- 6 teeth per inch- skip a tooth between and then another 6 teeth,etc. The skip allows for a little extra waste removal. You still have to compensate with feed rate. Practice on scrap is essential to get the feel. The more you do the better the feel and accuracy comes along with that. Sound complicated? It's not. When you rode a bike the first time you probaly were skeptical. With a little practice and getting the feel, I bet you no longer consider that as difficult as you first imagined
I recomment Timberwolve blades if you can afford. You get what you pay for, however any general blade will work if you are on a budget. If you're doing extremely tight curves 1/8". I like 1/4" 6 skip tooth as my all around blade. For re-saw I prefer 1/2 in either Timberwolf or Highland Hardware's resaw blade they have designed called the Wood-Slicer..My opinion these are the 2 best re-saw blades available.
In case you don't have local source for Duginske's book, the number of Highland Hardware is (800 241 6748) 24 hr. order line. They have been specializing to woodworkers since the 70's. Ask for their catalog as they have extensive library on woodworking books.
Hope I haven't confused. Duginske is much wiser than I on bandsaws. It can turn a confusing subject to a "I never realized it's really pretty simple with a little knowledge and practice".
Happy Woodworking and give me a shout if you disagree anything I said. I want you to tell me, "Sarge, let me tell you what I found out about this bandsaw you don't know"!
I'll keep my ears open!!! HAPPY WOODWORKING..
Sarge..
Thanks Sarge. I will check that out.
TDF
Hello, Sarge. Very nice to meet you. I barge in here after a long respite like i know everyone in the place...what poor manners, eh?
I work in MT, born and raised here except for being exhiled to CA for 5 years. My woodworking is geared mostly toward art fairs, wholesale, occasional furniture, and remodeling houses that i've bought. I've been doing this for about 20 years.
As to planning, what a relief after several years in my present chaotic, 1000' place. I moved in in a mid-winter rush that i swear i've never recuperated from. Biggest prob is dust collection which does NOT suck...i'm planning on two DC's at the new site, one for just a sanding room and the other for chips.
I'm storing all i can off the floor, and i've been putting machines on wheels more and more. I get out to Boeing Surplus near Seattle from time to time and they always have castered bases of some unearthly strong construction like the one made of 1/4" aluminum on 5" casters that i bought for $20 so i can shove my planer around if needed.
SPLINTIE:
Thanks for reply. Feel free to barge in anytime. We southerners try to leave the welcome mat out for everyone. I used to go to Big Sky skiing when I had knees. Love Montana and the open country out west.
Good luck with new shop and your business. Know you're busy so will let you get back to business. Need anything drop a line. I'm new to computers but been around the block a few times with hospitality.
Sarge..
Splintie, I didn't know you were in the Great Northwest! Not paying attention, I guess, how embarassing.
I'd like to get over to the Boeing surplus. Is there only one place to go? In other words, if I call a Boeing info number and ask for the address of the surplus place, will that do it? Heavy duty caster doo-dahs for $20 sound like a must-have.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Sarge was talking about skiing in Montana until his knees went, but it's so beautiful here, a person doesn't have to ski for the scenery to make her weak in the knees.
Boeing Surplus is in Kent, Wa. I understand there are other placed to go if dealing in wholesale quantities, but the one you want is in the link.
The stock changes all the time, of course, so one week they might be changing out monitors (got a good 17" one for $50), or officeware like desks and file cabs, computer stations, drafting tables. I bought a rock-solid, steel-framed table to use as a runoff table for my TS for $10. Also bought a remnant for $35 of new, extreme heavy-duty, embossed vinyl that they use in the airplanes to sheet my bathroom floor. I got the most glorious, burrless countersinks for 50 cents each, all sizes to choose from, from their tool shed; new and sturdy shipping boxes for 25 cents each. Outside they store all kinds of metal sheet stock, roll-around thingies, ladders, tubal metal, rubber matting, phenolic resin sheets (great benchtop material), and you can get a gizmo to hook onto your airplane to pull it over to the other side of your yard. The only thing i would suggest is you bring a lunch, coffee, and comfortable shoes, as i can never leave there in under four hours.
Thanks Splintie! What a relief, now I know where to go for that piece of titanium I've been needing, LOL! Seriously, though, I'm definitely going to check it out. Turns out, it's not too far from my favorite auctioneer's place. Also, I think if you keep going south you get to JET tools, and better yet, the surplus place just north of them!
When's your next show? Maybe I'll stop by and check your stuff out, buy you a mocha or sump'n.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Well, no shows in the Seattle area until possibly next year (i have to jury into them and it's always a crap shoot), but there is (come closer...i have to drop my voice or they'll take away my password to Knots) an IKEA down the road where i will likely buy cabs later this year for a remodel i'm doing.
I'll drop a line and we can meet where they sell those orangey chocolate bars...
Sorry, Splintie, I can't get Forest Girl's name to appear in the To: field but this is to her....
> ...Well, no shows in the Seattle area until possibly next year .....
I see there's a show coming late Oct at Sand Point. (Magnuson Park).
http://www.thewoodworkingshows.com/calendar.asp
Any idea what this is about and/or if it's worth making the trek across the lake?
Dennis
Hi Dennis, I looked at that web site, not sure which group it is though. Actually, the question I addressed to Splintie was re: craft shows specifically. I have gone to two of the woodworking shows in the past few years (these are sponsored by the tool companies and magazines I think). The last one I went to was a disappointment to me, not as many companies as I expected. They can be positive if:
you've got some jingle in your jeans and are looking to buy some tools; there are usually show specials; or
you're interested in the seminars and demonstrations they provide; or
you just want to hob-knob and chat with all those tool dudes, maybe check out the new models.
Although I had no money to spend the last time I went, and wasn't really into the demos, I did hob-knob and managed to get a connection that resulted in a used Jet contractor's saw for me, something I was finding impossible to get simply cruising the want-ads. I'll probably go to the one in Seattle in October (now that you've brought it to my attention) since I should have some tool funds available and a better idea of what I need than I had last year.
BTW, with regard to trying to get a particular name in that drop-down list, it's a somewhat useless feature, more's the pity. I think it only features the users that are on line at the moment, or something like that. It's easier to go to a message written by the person you want, and click on reply.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 8/15/2002 9:51:03 PM ET by forest_girl
Yeah, the Sand Point gig doesn't seem like such a logical venue for such things but I'll proberly head over there since it doesn't involve a ferry fair (grin)
Don't care for the options in this forum since there's no easy way to quote the original message other than cut & paste. But then that may be a blessing in disguise.
Better drop this dissusion lest the topic police get on our case. At any rate, if go that show (in Oct. I believe) and you see a guy walking around with an unkempt white beard and almost as much white in his hair with a Costa del Sol hat on, that's me.
Dennis
Thanks for pointing out my mistake on the month (I corrected it to October). Sandpoint's probably not much fun in Nov., LOL! Last time I went they had it at the Convention Center downtown, which was plenty spacious, but probably more expensive for them than Sandpoint. I've never been to Sandpoint, have you? They have big gardening things there every year, so I'd assume there's lots of space which is the main thing IMO.
There are a few WWers over here on the Island and the Penninsula that I might be able to round up for an outing to the show. Coming over on the ferry, it'd be cool to ride share. I'll keep an eye out for ya!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi Splintie, great idea!! Just shoot me an email via Knots (with a few days notice), I love those orangey chocolate bars!
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I saw a marquee (sp?) sign once, said:
Doesn't take much to make me laugh!
Some time back, when I posted a question about vertical vs. horizontal storage of regular lumber, one of the responders indicated he stored vertically but, in a similar manner to you, made sure his boards were clamped together and not leaning very much, to avoid warpage-by-gravity.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
LERT:
Before I answer, let me ask a question. I HOPE that the post you made was more that 3 weeks ago or I'm sure the TP POL--LEECE are headed my way looking for those dual-identity fellows. I left my car running just in case!
Now, with that said; let me get get on. I do not actually store board lumber vertically. As you read I built a storage rack on one side of a wall in basement. I don't think it was the same you were refering as I saw that one too. This was geared more for the individual woodworkers needs as opposed to a situation where those sheets have to be shuffled all day long.
The rack's base has a 5 degree taper toward wall and is covered lenght-wise with birch ply. Then I added 5 catcher arms ( 2 x 4 ) at front 15 degrees angled away from wall in case you let a sheet get away from you while flipping forward. So, I'm ready for 4 x 8 sheet goods down under. I clamp my sheet goods together tightly to help prevent warp.
Now we go up the rack 54" and add dual-track adjustable tracks to the 2 x 4's running up the wall. Insert dual-track shelving brackets at whatever intervals you prefer and your ready for board lumber. I actually have another rack beside the sheet-goods rack with nothing but tracks and brackets all the way from floor to ceiling. I can store a fair amount of board ft. Why? I had the room so Why Not!
Now, I actually store the boards laying flat (horizonal) and then apply clamps to keep them tightly together. You could place them vertical. Same difference as long as you have plenty of under-neath brackets spread evenly to support boards. Add a coat of poly or porch & floor paint to the open end-grain and your good to go.
I pre-cut boards an inch longer than I designed them to be for a project I have working about 3 months in advance. I do clamp all pre-cuts together also and store vertically under-neath an assembly table. When the moisture content is right, they get worked. This is the only time I store boardage vertical.
That's my story and I'm sticking with it! I hope you can understand this. I was thinking 3 steps ahead of my typing ability. My southern accent probaly doesn't help either. If you could see the rack you'd see what I was trying to say in about a minute.
If you have questions-contact my lawyer or reply this post! Regards as always..
Sarge.
Hiya Sarge, yep it was way more than 3 weeks -- chill the car!
OK, I'm pretty much clear on your post, except for this part: "I do clamp all pre-cuts together also and store vertically under-neath an assembly table." Wow, how tall is the assembly table?? Also, you mention that you clamp the pre-cuts together and leave 'em until the moisture content is right. Doesn't clamping them together make them lose moisture in an unbalanced sortof way?
I know, I'm being a pain, but am very curious! Besides, the project I was working on tonight got me frustrated, and I've gotta take it out on somebody! LOL!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
LERT:
You don't miss anything, do you? There is one more thing you didn't catch. I mentioned laying boards horizonally flat on racks above sheet goods. Then I said it didn't matter if it was horizonal or vertical. I didn't proof read and that's not what I meant to say. I wouldn't stand them vertical on flat shelves that are designed for horizonal. I meant to say it doesn't matter if you lay them flat or stand them on edge after you've clamped. I'm kind of tired and not real bright anyway.
Now, to explain your questions. The assembly table I built is 54" long and 34" wide. There is a solid shelf under-neath that is approximately 48" x 30". The clearance from top of shelf to under-side of top is 24". The actual top from floor is 34 1/2". So I have 24" to work with if I stand pre-cuts vertical. If I have lots of under 24" peices clamped I will stand them vertical after clamping to take up less space. And if they are over 24" I lay them flat. If I have enough room regardless of length I prefer flat. I was merely pointing out I do use vertical if a situation dictates.
We get to the part that you really got me, huh! If I pre-cut and clamp won't that let them dry un-evenly. They have already been properly dried before I pre-cut. I coat ends with poly or porch & floor paint and wrap with Saran wrap before I apply clamps. That way they are not exposed to humidity.
Moisture content is two part. Content of the wood itself and of content of the air. You can lay a basically flat board on a flat table and leave it over-nite and find it warped by morning. Why? Wood moves with moisture content. I try to keep the variance of moisture content of wood and shop humidity as close as possible when I work it. I am not having to pay the mortage with woodworking so I can pick my time and place. I'm sure some expert could say that is not scientifically been proven. When he starts paying my bills I'll probaly listen. I know how our local weather affects my work by trial and error. This is how I compensate. Right or wrong. Works for me! Yep, you are right if pre-cuts were clamped the exposed outside wood will pick up more moisture than the inside pieces.
Late and I'm exhausted. I got to do some real heavy thinking tomorrow morning as per ED's post. Now he has a dilly of a problem. The Federal Witness Protection Program is starting to look good when I read over his post. Hope that gives you info you questioned. If not, ask...
Better luck on the project tomorrow-sometimes sleep does wonders..
Sarge.
Hey Splints,
Good to see you here. I haven't been back "down under" if you know what I mean. No time for idle chat. I got the check back where it belongs for now. Thanks.
I like the pipe rack idea...that will work for projects in progress so the new wood doesn't get mixed up with the old. It will also help keep track of material usage on any particular project.
Sarge,
Just had an idea. I could go with vertical storage for solid stock by building an angled wall inside against one of the outside walls of the shop. That way everything would be laying flat - so to speak - against the angled wall with even flat pressure against the boards in back. I couldn't store anything over the 13' ceiling height, but most of what we buy is 12' and under. I think I'll do it. That will buy more floor space as I can loose the horizontal lumber rack we use now for the solid stock. Long pieces in back, short stuff in the front. Easy to dig through also. Sounds like a winner.
Still want to hear ideas for plywood storage.
Ed.
ED:
You stole my thunder on vertical on solid. Had to run to Depot this morning for odds and ends for mortiser cabinet I working on. Passed lumber rack and that's exactly how they do it. Shuffled around a little lumber to see how difficult to get to back peices. Not bad! Not perfect, but not bad!
Box frame 9' high and 4' (however wide you can spare space). 2 sheets of plywood floor base laminated with formica or tempered hardboard. Hard and slick. Another floor 54" up and laminated also. Partition every 8" across width. 8" should allow about 4 or 5 sheets to fit nicely without bottom pinch. You could increase or decrease depending on how husky your crew is. Box is 6 1/2' or 7' deep. Gives enough over-hang for sheets to stick out slightly without giving up structual strenght to length of sheets. Should also have enough hand hold to flip through and pull them out. Slide 4 or 5 sheets in each partition and put a piece of masking tape on each end edge labeled with what type wood. Will save a bunch of flipping.
Vertical is only solution with your mixture of various sheets of woods. Lifting up is not the answer. Not practical plus Worksman-Comp and insurance issues. Sliding on that slick base is easier and safer. You'll need about 9' clearance in front of box rack of course to pull them out. That would require about 17' front to rear and whatever width you choose of open space on shop. Do you have? Fuel for thought! Base could be mounted on heavy industrial casters. How bout a big East Texas Rolling Box that can be moved anywhere in shop or outside if you're having a dinner guest.
The only other suggestions I have is if you're single, marry somebody rich-win the lotto-or look for a building that might have about 800 more sq. ft. at the same price in a area that has a lot of vacancy. Deals can be cut when the mortgage is due.
Hope you come up with a solution. Hey, I'm new and don't know splintie; but you mentioned down under. I've been to Austrailia twice and would like to make it back one of these days. If it's anything other than that, disregard as I don't like to be snoopy.
Good luck. If I can help give me a holler and if you get down Atlanta way, drop on by. I'll leave the porch light on for you!
Sarge..
Hi Ed,
Been lurkin' in this thread. When I read that you have 3200 plus and a crew of five, seems like space and labor is not a big issue.
I would consider stongly the possiblity of storing it flat (although I store mine vertically, I'm a one man shop. Though, I am intrigued by your "slanted" storage solution). If you clearly mark/identify all your sheet goods on the edge, then horizontal storage should be a breeze. Two guys should be able to shift a large pile of 4x8 sheets in under a few minutes. I can't imagine any noticable time loss to get at a sheet in the middle of the stack.
Scott
"Buy sheet goods by the unit"
How much does this save you? I ask the question because you may be trying to solve the wrong problem. Clearly, you need some storage for your sheets and stock. But asking to set up efficient and effective systems without also making an investment in the proper logistics equipment...is like swapping out your table saws for circular saws (overly dramatic statement....lol).
If your that big...you must have production runs where you can plan out your needs and set up a JIT delivery schedule. This can be fully mechanized and done online. I did this for a project focused operation with various shops...wood, plumbig, electrical, sheet metal, etc.
Surplus? Mark each end piece with code..that relates to a master sheet...defining what it is.
Your supplier has made the investment in efficient handling equipment. All things considered, it might be cheaper to leverage his investment and save our space for more effective workflow layout or the circus Rich suggested....lol
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