Replies

1. 
   JimGG | Jun 02, 2002 11:43pm | #1

   The garnet shellac you applied contains denatured alcohol, which appears to have softened and dissolved the upper part of the glaze coating. What was the carrier in your glaze? Was it varnish, water base, shellac? If the carrier was varnish, the denated alcohol in the garnet shellac should not have softened the glaze. I've never used a water base glaze, so I don't know if that would be softened by  a coat of shellac. If the glaze carrier was shellac, it would soften when coated by shellac and give you the adverse results you described. If you try it again, you could put a wash coat of varnish over the glaze coat to act as a barrier. Could you provide the brand name of the glaze, or if you mixed it yourself, what you used? Don't give up the ship, you'll get there.

1. 
   tarobi | Jun 03, 2002 05:57am | #2

   Jim,

   Thank you so much for taking time to reply. 

   The product I used is Behlen Master "Heavy Bodied" Glazing Stain - clear.  Indeed it says on the directions to use only on a "sealed surface."  Before I glazed the piece though I had put on two coats of the same shellac, although they were both probably more like 1 lb. cuts instead of the 2 lb. 

   Thank you very much for any further advice.

   Best regards

   Allen

1. 
   gerry001 | Jun 03, 2002 07:35pm | #3

   That glaze shows a mineral spirit clean up, but also indicates a dry time of 1-2 hours before topcoating, so it probably has a drier added. I suspect that shellac is still your best bet, but I'd start with leaving the glaze dry overnight. At that point, I'd spray the shellac, or move to a thin coat of 1# cut. Just flow on a very thin coat, and it shouldn't disturb anything. To be sure it's sealed, you can add another thin coat shortly after. Don't try any thick coats until you're sure it's sealed.

   For your initial seal coats, I assume you did make sure the wood was sealed, properly scuff sanding after the first coat. Using 1# or 2# is only part of it, of course, as I could flow on a thick coat of 1# that has as much shellac as a thin coat of 2# cut.

   Gerry

2. 
   JimGG | Jun 03, 2002 09:09pm | #4

   I haven't used Behlen Heavy Bodied Glaze, so can't speak from experience. But if it is heavy bodied, it might not have been 100% dry after 1.5 days, and your garnet shellac coat washed off a little of the top of the glaze, causing the problem. If you using glaze on another project, let it dry longer than 1.5 days just to be sure. When I use varnish as a finish coat I let each coat dry for 3-5 days just to avoid problems (the first varnish coat dries quickly, so I don't wait that long). On your next project have a test board that has the same coatings as the piece. If the garnet shellac picks off the glaze pigment you've only messed up your test board, not your piece. If your Behlen glaze recommends mineral spirits for brush clean up, then the alcohol in shellac should not soften the glaze, if the glaze is 100% dry.

1. 
   tarobi | Jun 03, 2002 10:10pm | #5

   Gerry and Jim

   Thanks for your help and advice.  Just another example of learning as I go :)

   As for now Im just going to use steel wool and / or sandpaper to try and get everything off - then go back to step 1 or 2 (depending upon whether the base dye is still undisturbed).

1. 
   StanleyNiemiec | Jun 04, 2002 02:06am | #6

   I think there might be a difference between glazing stain and glaze  --  the latter being different because of the inclusion of some "resin".  Since the glazing stain did not seem to affect the initial coatings of shellac, I would have to conclude that the problem was the solubization of the glaze by the top coat.

   Without a resin binder, the glazing stain is likely to become more soluble than a glaze -- but there are no perfect situations here either.  I like and recommend Mohawk's Star NuGlaze.  99.9% of my finishing is sprayed lacquer so the worst problems I generally encounter are sags and runs.  Recently someone wanted a urethane finish (they were going to do it) and the piece was to be natural.  After the first coat of the U-varnish they were somewhat dissatisfied with the color.  At that point the only way I knew to adjust the color was with glazes and it was  a friggin' mess.  The glaze solvent softened/solubilized the U-varnish (leading to a very sticky and messy glazing process), and the U-varnish softened/solubilized the glaze.   At this point in time, I will never again use U-varnishes.

   The problem you ran into is often a reality in finishing.  With regard to finishing you need to have a completely compatable system (such that the glaze is not dissolved by the top coat) but you also have to be knowledgeable and skilled in the application of these materials.  It is always recommended that you do a test piece.  If the test piece is your actual piece, then you run the risk of getting into problems. 

   Another alternative is to obtain a small air brush with a very small compressor.  If the shellac dissovles the glaze (when brushing), the air brush would allow you to apply a "sealer" coat.  Again there are no guarentees because the next brushed coat of shellac may dissolve/soften both the sealing top coat and the "glaze".

2. 
   SgianDubh | Jun 04, 2002 02:55am | #7

   One disadvantage I've found, Stanley, of brushing stains, dyes and polishes is the intimate contact of the brush with the previous layer of finish. You tend drag the sh*t back and forth and one layer can affect the previous layer adversely. I can spray a finish over a so called  incompatible base where a brush will just make a mess, because you apply it and walk away and let the two incompatibles fight it out. That's not the whole story as other experienced finishers will be able to testify.  This is not a suggestion to anyone that they should adopt spraying techniques over a brush or rag, just an observation. Slainte, RJ. RJFurniture

3. 
   StanleyNiemiec | Jun 04, 2002 07:17am | #8

   "One disadvantage I've found, Stanley, of brushing stains, dyes and polishes is the intimate contact of the brush with the previous layer of finish. You tend drag the sh*t back and forth and one layer can affect the previous layer adversely."

   And perchance my friend, how many times did you try it before you realized that you simply cannot do it to your standards of quality, or in a realistic time period so that you could actually make money doing it.   I would wager a pint of something dark and foamy, that there were plenty of late nights spent trying somehow to make it work or at least look good.

   With regard to glazes, there are sometimes that I don't get it dark enough (just a tad too light).  I have tried to use my air brush to spray/shade/highlight just a wee bit more and while it will "pass", to me it looks like an ugly dirty film.  I cannot use shading stains (tinted lacquers in my case) because the "colour" just ain't the same.

   IF you went through similar experiences, as I did, I am certain there were those poor days when you did not have the good tools for finishing, AND there still is that bloody learning curve relating to finishing.  There is no good way to actually describe colour and the "eye"/feel you need to get from point A to point C.  You just have to do it and along the way, make all those STUPID mistakes.

   I remember once a woodturner telling me that you can read all the books in the world on wood turning and until you have touched tool to rotating wood, you don't know nothing about turning.  I think the same can be said about finishing. 

   From my perspective being a good finisher involves not only knowing what to do but also knowing what not to do or when to stop.  Yah just one more coat would make it look truly spectacular but its even odds that on that next coat, either I am going to screw up or some booger is going to blow out of the gun or some bug is going to do its death dance on the most visible spot.

   And if you had to finish something in my shop or I had to do something in yours, we would both wonder how in hell the other person does it with all those strange and inferior materials.  Finishing is both a separate and distinct trade from woodworking and it is also an artform unto itself.  I sincerely doubt if there are any more than a 1000 good combined woodworkers and wood-finishers across the country.  I exclude those woodworkers who use only one process on the product they build but are truly capable of both building a piece to spec's and then matching a desired color sample/sheen.

4. 
   SgianDubh | Jun 04, 2002 02:13pm | #9

   Every point a good one Stanley. Although I offer my (sometimes bad) advice to people with preparation, staining and finishing problems I consider myself a bumbling hack in the field next to a real expert. I've learnt a few tricks over something like 25 years, but I'm a much better furniture maker than I am a finisher. When I started, finishing was a whole separate trade with its own four or five year  apprenticeship. I've just had to pick it up as I go along and do it myself because being able to find a skilled finisher has become harder and harder over the years, especially in the US south where comprehensive, formal and structured training in the furniture trades is virtually non-existent, and almost everyone in the field of woodworking is self taught. I can't say for the rest of the USA, but that's what it's like around here. Slainte, RJ.RJFurniture