Replies

1. 
   user-83153 | Apr 18, 2007 04:33am | #1

   Vintage1,

     The shellac isn't darkening, but the cherry probably is. No finish will stop cherry from darkening. What kind of shellac are you using (i.e. blond, orange, garnet)? Reducing the amount of shellac you are using is certainly a viable solution if your final color is getting to dark for your taste.

                         Rob

1. 
   vintage1 | Apr 18, 2007 02:48pm | #3

   rob,

   I am using amber shellac.  The first coat was 50/50 denatured alcohol and shellac. Subsequent coats were 25/75.  Maybe I will try all coats 50/50 and just do two.

   Thanks

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Apr 18, 2007 03:26pm | #6

   You need to be carefull here.  Zinsser's Amber liquid shellac contains wax.  Because of the wax, it is not suitable as an undercoat for waterborne finishes or oil-based polyurethanes since it can cause problems with adhesion. It may not reduce to zero, so problems might not show up immediately, but may appear over time. It is fine for traditional resin varnishes. 

   Zinnser makes a product that will work better.  It's called Seal Coat and will go under any finishing material.  It's just dewaxed shellac.  You can always mix dewaxed shellac yourself from flakes.  It is lighter in color as well.  Not the lightest shellac, but quite a bit lighter than the Amber (which used to be called Orange reflecting the underlying name of commerce for the shellac grade used.)  Seal Coat is a blonde shellac, but not as light as Super Blonde or Ultra Blonde, which are the lightest grades other that bleached shellac (in Zinsser Clear) which I don't much recommend since the chemical bleaching reduces some of the protective qualities.

   As far as darkening, as others have pointed out, the shellac is not changing color.  In fact it is one of the more color stable finishes around.  I also agree with the others that nothing will stop, or even slow for very low, the darkening of cherry.  Most people find that the color becomes richer and richer as it ages, though that's a matter of tastes.  Best to accept it and make sure you let it happen evenly.  For example, a lamp placed permanently on a table top might leave a pale spot underneath if it were not moved aroung regularly. 

1. 
   vintage1 | Apr 18, 2007 05:59pm | #7

   Steve,

   Thanks for the info.  I was getting ready to put the shellac on when I read your post.  The can even says not for use under poly. 

   I am on my way to get some of the seal coat.  I will experiment with that and see what happens.  Are there ways to darken that up if needed?

   I ask because I had some waterbased shellac from Target Coatings and it didn't seem to add any color.  With just wb poly on cherry, it was a real sterile look, no warmth.  That's why I went to the amber shellac. 

   Clearly, I have much to learn about finishing.  Perhaps you can offer some additional advice.  Maybe shellac isn't the thing to use.

   I want to give the cherry a warm look, but I don't want it too dark.  I want to be able to spray apply the finish (poly or varnish or ???) with my HVLP.  Low odor is the key for the spraying since it is in an occupied home.  And I need to be able to do this in a reasonable amount of time between coats.  The bar has to be done by Monday since the countertops are being installed then.

   Thanks in advance.

1. 
   user-83153 | Apr 18, 2007 07:24pm | #8

   Shellac is the perfect thing for you to use. The sealcoat that Zinsser sells is a blond shellac that won't add much color to the wood. If you have someplace that you can get shellac flakes you should mix up some dewaxed garnet flakes in a 2# cut. One coat of this would probably be enough to get the color you want. If you can put this somwhere that you could get it above 80 Degrees you should be able to mix what you need in a few hours. Just agitate it frequently to keep exposing the shellac to the alcohol.

               Rob

   Edited 4/18/2007 12:27 pm ET by Rob A.

2. 
   vintage1 | Apr 18, 2007 07:48pm | #9

   Rob,

   could I use a base coat of the amber shellac to add some color and then another top coat of the dewaxed followed by wb poly? Or will this create problems down the road as others have pointed out.

   I still need to experiment and I am trying to find the balance between "not enough and too much color"

   Thanks for your help.

    

3. 
   SteveSchoene | Apr 18, 2007 09:26pm | #10

   There is another route to warming up the water borne top coats.  You could add a few drops of TransTint amber or similar dye concentrate.  With the additive the water borne looks very much like oil based finishes.  You can either mix this to add the desired darkening in the first coat, or with less dye concentration, build up the color in several coats.  Easier to get even with multiple coats with each only lightly colored. 

4. 
   user-83153 | Apr 18, 2007 09:29pm | #11

   If you put dewaxed shellac on top of waxed shellac you will still have the same adhesion problem. Shellac is a great sealer for just about anything except other shellac. Shellac is an evaporative finish so each coat dissolves and mixes with the previous coats making what is essentially one coat. You could add transtint to the blond shellac to get more color if you are spraying.

                        Rob

5. 
   cwalvoord | Apr 18, 2007 09:45pm | #13

   vintage1,
   I have not personally tried to seal waxy shellac with dewaxed shellac to then topcoat with a WB polly but I have been advised against it by some people whos opinions I respect. The issue is that each new shellac layer "melts" into the old ones and thus some of the wax ends up on top.If you are not getting the color you want from the Seal Coat I would recommend checking out Homestead Finishing's web site. They have dewaxed shellac in almost any color you could want. They also carry the dye Steve recommended adding to your WB polly if you go that route.I have finished a fair amount of cherry with shellac and then a WB top coat and think it looks great. (I have used a General Finishes WB product with good results.) But it does take some experimenting to get the initial color right and, as everyone has said, it will darken over time no matter what you do.Good luck
   Chris

6. 
   SteveSchoene | Apr 18, 2007 10:27pm | #14

   I agree with Rob and Chris that attempting to seal in the wax with dewaxed shellac can be a problem.  However, if time absolutely prevents obtaining the other materials, and if, and only if, you are spraying , you can mist on a couple of dry coats of the dewaxed shellac.  The purpose is to redissolve only a small part of the underlayers.  Wet coats might redissolve more substantial parts of the undercoat.  Brushing would also disturb too much of the lower, wax containing, coats. 

   If possible I would either use dewaxed flakes of the desired color, or use the dyu additive to the waterborne top coat.  But the alternative I give above ought to give a pretty reasonable shot at preventing problems down the road if you must use it to meet your deadlines.

7. 
   sapwood | Apr 18, 2007 11:57pm | #15

   And of course there is one more thing to use...... Target Coatings makes a water bourn shellac. This is a great substitue for alchohol shellac when one does not want a fume issue. The product is not suitable as a topcoat.... it must be coated with poly, lacquer, whatever. I've been doing some samples with this and other Target products and am impressed. It's available from Homestead and others.

2. 
   dherzig | Apr 18, 2007 04:46am | #2

   I have seen some woodworkers advise putting the cherry out in the sun for a couple of days to move along the color change quickly. Then perhaps you can adjust which shade of shellac to use not to darken the wood too much.

1. 
   vintage1 | Apr 18, 2007 02:51pm | #4

   dherzig,

   I have heard of this too.  But I can't move the bar into the sun, so I have been trying to keep all of the wood out of natural light. 

   I think I will play with the mix a little more and try only 2 coats.

   Thanks

    

3. 
   blewcrowe | Apr 18, 2007 02:57pm | #5

   I don't think shellac itself darkens. But cherry is really sensitive to light, even indirectly, and it recolors its surface really fast.

4. 
   YesMaam27577 | Apr 18, 2007 09:31pm | #12

   Cherry is a photo-reactive wood. It changes color from exposure to light. Although there are some things you can do to slow this down, you can't stop it from happening altogether.

   My procedure with cherry is to complete the project, and sand/scrape it. Then I set it outside on a sunny day - or two or three. This gets most of the change done so it won't happen after I finish the piece.

   Once it has darkened in the sun, I have a better idea of what stain/dye/finish combination I want to use.

    

    

    

   Support our Troops. Bring them home. Now.  And pray that at least some of the buildings in the green zone have flat roofs, with a stairway.

5. 
   JonE | Apr 19, 2007 12:24am | #16

   Cherry will darken over time no matter what you do.  There is no way to stop it.  The shellac acts as a sealer and will bring out (enhance) the figure and color of the wood.  The WB poly acts as a protective topcoat only.

   I have been finishing everything in my new house, all the woodwork, with Zinsser Sealcoat (Parks markets an identical product, a 2lb dewaxed shellac, as Universal Sealer through Home Depot).  For surfaces that are expected to wear, such as railings, windowsills and doors, I am putting two coats of shellac and two coats of satin WB poly on, making sure to rub out with scotchbrite pads between each coat.  For heavy wear surfaces, stairs and floors, two coats of shellac, two coats *gloss* WB poly and one coat satin WB poly.  For everything else, three coats of shellac and a final rubout with a non-abrasive pad.  I don't care for gloss woodwork, but I do like the depth and figure to show.  Nothing is the house has stain on it at all.

    

1. 
   vintage1 | Apr 20, 2007 03:08pm | #17

   thanks to all for the advice.

   I picked up some of the transtint amber, reddish brown, and one other brown.  I have been experimenting with adding this to the seal coat.  So far, I haven't gottten the right color yet. 

   Rereading the thread many of you suggest adding the tint to the poly, not the seal coat.  I have been adding 5-6 drops to 8oz of 50/50 sealcoat and denatured alcohol. 

   Anybody have a formula they would like to share?

1. 
   sapwood | Apr 20, 2007 08:09pm | #18

   Check out this link: http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3744

6. 
   mpphoto | Apr 21, 2007 04:07pm | #19

   This is one of those rare times I can actually share my experiences. I recently finished making matching desks for SWMBO and I using baltic birch edged in figured cherry. I was working in our basement so I wanted to keep fumes to a minimum. I tried the Target products and it was the perfect solution for me. They make a range of water based shellac which, as stated above, are not suitable as a final finish but work wonderfully under wb poly products.

   When I first started assembling the desks I was disappointed at the lack of contrast between the birch and cherry. The cherry was pale and pink. In just a few weeks it darkened nicely and the shellac enhanced the figure. Don't worry about the cherry darkening. It's one of the features of cherry and adds a wonderful richness and depth.

   I actually went one step further and bought an inexpensive Critter Spray Gun to spray the finish. The Critter is available at most suppliers like Lee Valley, Woodcraft and Amazon for around $40-$45. Everything worked as advertised. I purchased an entire range of Target Coatings (no affiliation, just a happy, fume-free customer) and also use them as wipe-on finishes. The shellac comes in a red tone, amber and blonde. I thought they all looked great on the cherry and ended up using the blonde.

   I've also tried Zinsser's Sealcoat and use it often and I've tried adding Transtint to shellac. All great advice that opens up worlds of possibilities.

   Good luck with your project and have fun-
   Michael

1. 
   Joby | May 06, 2007 03:14pm | #20

   I have never heard of water based shellac. Would this also dissolve the undercoats of alcohol based shellac, or can this be used as a fume free seal coat between the waxed shellac and the WB poly?

1. 
   sapwood | May 06, 2007 09:29pm | #21

   I've just started some trials using Target's water bourne shellac, so my knowledge is limited as is my experience. But I believe the answers to your questions are no and no. I get the product from Homestead finishing. They are a definitive source of information.