I am finishing a curly maple dresser. I used analine(sp?) dye and BLO to bring the figure out. I am now padding on the shellac. I have done 6 coats of 2lb cut. The surface is now glass smooth (sanding with 400 grit show only a few shiny spots here and there, otherwise, I get a consistent scratch pattern with only a few passes of the paper).
My question is, does adding additional coats do anything? Does it improve the look or will it start to look too thick.
I am sure there are a lot of opinions on this and I’d like to hear all sides.
I’ll post a picture later in the day.
Thanks.
Anna
Replies
BTW, my plan is to rub out to 600/800 with wet sandpaper and finish with 0000 wool and wax.
Anna
The answer is that it is almost entirely an aesthetic issue, which means it is entirely up to your own judgement. For, me, once you have a fully level surface there isn't much to gain from adding a thicker coating.
That said, 6 padded on coats of 2 lb. cut shellac isn't a very thick coating, especially if you have sanded to level the surface and fill pores. If you want to eliminate those last shiny spots when you level it's perfectly OK to do so.
Anna,
I asked the question about shellac to joinerswork (Ray Pine) last year. He is a professional maker of fine furniture, and has been for decades. I have seen his work and it is beautiful. He told me that he used to use shellac, but that he always made test pieces, and he found that he couldn't tell which had shellac under a varnish coating, and which did not. By the way, we were discussing curly maple, just as you are. He recommended that I skip the shellac. I tried the same test that he did, and I agree. Skip the shellac. Of course, if you are a glutton for punishment, or if you like the smell of shellac, or if you have stock in a shellac company, then go ahead an use it.
Have fun.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
I agree with Ray that there is seldom any reason to use shellac under a varnish top coat unless there is a specific compatibility issue.
However, as a top coat, which it sounds like what Anna has in mind, shellac has many merits. While you may not tell the difference between varnish and varnish over shellac, you will almost certainly be able to tell by looking the difference between shellac and varnish. In most furniture situations short of expected abuse there isn't any reason to put on varnish over the shellac. Besides, shellac is a lot easier to use than varnish anyway, particularly when it comes to rubbing out.
Edited 5/31/2007 9:35 am ET by SteveSchoene
Steve,
Thanks for writing. You and I have discussed this one before. I believe we have different value systems. Both are valid. We just disagree, which is what makes the world interesting. You accept shellac as a valid surface coat. I would only use shellac if I were making a copy of a period piece which was meant to be very authentic. To my way of thinking, most people these days (that does not include you) can't tell the difference between a shellac and varnish finish by looking at it and feeling it. To me, the only finish to use on pieces of furniture that are meant to be used is polyurathane. It resists alcohol and most everything else that is likely to fall on it. It does have some problems theoretically, but I have been using it for decades and have not had any poly finishes fail yet. I do not try to push my ideas on other people. I do not even try to convince them. I merely put my ideas out there for people to test for themselves, if they so desire. I believe that no one should ever take advice from others without testing it first. I believe that the most important thing that a woodworker can have is the "self-confidence" that he/she can figure out and do just about anything that can be done. Too many woodworkers seem to look for a "god" to follow. They would be better off learning to follow their own star. The light from that star should come from vast reading and trying. It is great to seek advice. It is self defeating to take someone else's advice without trying it out for yourself first. I also believe that too many woodworkers on Knots get too "fussy" about things. One is sharpening. Another is finishing. I got the feeling that the person who started this thread was getting a bit fussy about the finish. As the song says, "You gotta know when to hold em, know when to fold em, know when to walk away, and know when to run." It is good to have a feeling for "how much is enough" in all aspects of life, and woodworking is one aspect of life. OF course, some people only get excited when they are overdoing something. If that is the only thing that makes a person happy, well that's fine with me. The analogy that I have heard about sharpening is "I don't look at sharpening as a "happening". I just do it enough to make my tools cut well." We often talk about skills and tools on Knots, but we rarely talk about the most important things that a woodworker has, and those are attitudes and values. That is what this message is about.Have fun. Keep up the good work.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I can certainly appreciate that many people feel that varnish is necessary for a suitably durable top coat. It's not an unreasonable choice, but far from being the only choice. Of, course that is a very recent development, since until recently lacquer--only a small amount more protective that shellac but only really available with spray facilities--was the standard for commercial furniture.
I believe that many of the visitors to fora such as this tend to over emphasize durability as a characteristic of finishes. Some very successful high end furniture is sold with nothing more than an oil finish (Thos. Moser) and some very high end gallery things with merely a nice oil/varnish finish. (Maloof). Lacquer and shellac have worked quite well for decades (a couple of centuries for shellac) with the occasional mishap that necessitates a repair that is relatively easy to do, in either case.
Varnish has a much shorter record of longevity, and I am not at all sure is as likely to be presentable after 50 or 75 years than shellac would be. And, if it has heavily yellowed (not a shellac characteristic) or has plasticized, or had other faults, varnish requires a more extreme process to refinish that is more likely to strip the furniture of the good parts of its patina.
And, when I do use varnish, I don't see any of the advantages of (single part) polyurethane varnish compared to traditional resin varnishes as being worth giving up the easier rub out process with the traditional resin varnishes. They also resist alcohol and household chemicals though they fall a bit short of poly in abrasion resistance.
I sure don't think using shellac is "fussy". I think it is easier to use than varnish, more reliable of results that are very attractive and, in addition, capable of being accomplished in a much shorter period of time. The ease of rubbing out surpasses traditional resin varnish, and compares closely with nitrocellulose lacquer. Its rapid dry time reduces the amount of "dust" and similar artifacts that must be dealt with. It certainly would be my choice for a "quick and dirty" finish, as well as for the finest furniture.
For commercial customers, the relative priorities may well be different. For them, a easy repair means finding someone to do it. Since that someone is often the maker, where a call back means pick up, rearranging a work schedule, delivery, all usually for payment that is zero, or minimal. Thus for the commercial maker of furniture avoiding call back becomes a very high priority, unless they are in a position to "educate" customers.
Of course for the large numbers of us who mostly make things for our own homes, a repair often means no more than I quick swipe with a shellac or alcohol damped cloth, or maybe a little fine brush work to fill a scratch--that can be accomplished in the interval between picking up before a party, and going up to shower and get dressed for it. No reason to put up with the hassles of varnish if the downside of shellac is so small.
Steve,
As always, your response is well reasoned, based on an immense amount of background information, and based on a great deal of experience. There are a number of people on Knots whose messages I seek out, and you are one of them.I am far from "commercial". I make a few pieces a year for family and friends. I rebuild antiques that were very nice but have fallen into disrepair, but only for family. I do carving and painting - only for family. Have you ever seen people put a perfume or after-shaving lotion bottle on a piece of bedroom furniture that has been lacquered???? I have. Many times. No problem in my house. All varnish. I build my furniture with quality joints -- mortise and tenon, handcut dovetails, etc. I hope it is around for generations. Will my varnish finishes yellow and darken. I guess so. I have many that I did back in the 1960s and they still look fine to me. If someone has to refinish some of my furniture in the year 2200, so be it. If someone spills drinks on it or perfume or nail polish remover, no problem.Now if I was Rob Millard, I certainly would eschew varnish. I can only dream of making the furniture that he does. When my daughter got married, I gave her and her husband a houseful of furniture that I had either made or rebuilt and refinished. Luckily they like the stuff I make or re-make. My advice to them is to use it -- put feet on the coffee table. Don't treat the stuff as if it were in a museum. This is a home and it is meant to be used. Their marriage and their furniture is surviving very well. I have furniture that is finished with varnish, lacquer, shellac and a few different kinds of oil. I used to ask people if they could tell which is which. I found that often, they were unhappy at being asked. When I asked why, I found out that they thought I was testing them. I wasn't. I was merely trying to see if people who don't make furniture could tell the difference. I find that almost none of them can tell, and that none of them care. They do like "durable". A last thought. I agree with you about getting away from polyurathane. I just got stuck in a rut. I will switch to a good quality non-poly varnish for most of my furniture. Thanks for a great swap of ideas. As I said, I don't try to convince anyone to do as I do. I just do what I find works well for me. I don't preach. I would rather discuss things with people who use different approaches because that way I can learn more. I only do woodwork because I enjoy it. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Thanks for the discussion. I am pretty much set on the idea of shellac, it is a reproduction piece and I am trying to be authentic. Plus, as was pointed out, I really like the way it rubs out. I am padding on the shellac as I find it is the easiest way to get a glass smooth finish.
I think I will probably go with the advice to base it on how it looks, not the coats, the piece is relatively large and am worried about it crazing if there is a lot of wood movement and the finish is too thick. Where I have had to sand a lot to get it level, I will probably build up the surface a bit more and then rub out.
Great discussion, while a little off track my original question ;-)
Anna
Anna,
Great to hear from you, and to make your acquaintance. Glad you enjoyed the discussion even if it wasn't what you started. That happens a lot on Knots and it is not a bad thing. Steve is a really knowledgeable guy. I am merely a hobbyist. I enjoy woodworking very much. I took pains to say that I was only sharing my approach, but I wasn't trying to push it on anyone else. I use shellac occasionally on clocks. When you are finished with your piece, I hope you put a photo or two on the Knots Gallery. It is not just for museum pieces. I think that we all ought to share more of our work with each other. What types of woodworking are you most interested in? How long have you been doing it?I started in the 1960s and slowed down when my kids were young, but not much. All three spent a lot of time "helping me". They would drive a lot of nails into boards, and paint things again and again. We bonded in the woodshop. Now they are out of the universities, and married and have jobs. I make "case pieces". I also like to do carving and decorative painting. Lately, I have been spending more time learning some new carving techniques. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel,
I hope you put a photo or two on the Knots Gallery. It is not just for museum pieces. I think that we all ought to share more of our work with each other.
Hope you don't mind my paraphrasing your comment to Anna, but I can't help but agree with your intentions. You are absolutely right.
Thanks,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 5/31/2007 10:27 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob,
I don't mind at all. I have long felt that the Knots Gallery is the most valuable aspect of the FWW website. Trading tips and tricks and philosophies is very valuable -- but "the rubber meets the road" in what people are actually making.
Enjoy.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
If you really value chemical (and water) resistance and want to use varnish then I would suggest trying Sherwin Williams' vinyl conversion varnish. Vinyl conversion varnishes are widely reputed to be the best finish for laboratory environments where chemical resistance would obviously be a big deal. I've used it quite a bit and find it very easy to work with. I actually prefer it over regular conversion varnishes. I think it both looks and applies better than they do.
Kevin,
Thank you very much for the tip on Sherman Williams Vinyl conversion varnish. I certainly will give it a try. That's one of the great values of Knots -- people sharing great tips. Can't beat that with a stick.
Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Here is something I put together after attending a class by a guy who used lots of shellac for restoration and period furniture.
Applying a shellac finish is one part reading how (or watching a video demonstration) and ten parts practice. It is one of those processes in which you will one day reach what I call the "A-Ha" point in your journey and it will all simply fall into place. I would urge you to stick with the process and finish lots of test boards before you take the technique to a real project.
I can give you this simple pointer as a place to start. Forget everything that you know about applying other finishes. In particular, that means forget about the concept of "coats"! Every time you apply another coat of shellac to an existing shellac film you significantly increase the probability of failure, both near and long term. This is especially true if you are attempting to pad on a shellac-only finish. Padding (in my view, the best way to achieve a high quality shellac finish) is actually a continuous process in which a single coat is applied in steps until the finish is refined to a very hard film and a high luster.
I would also add (along the lines of changing your focus from "coats") that you need to change your view of what constitutes a good finish film. When we apply varnish, lacquer, or even water-borne finishes we think in terms of "building" the finish film. The best shellac finish is the thinnest film that you can apply consistent with good coverage and an even-depth film. One of my visualizations when I teach a class on shellac is to hold up a single flake of shellac (about the size of a quarter) and suggest that our objective is to dissolve this flake and then spread it evenly over the surface of our test board. Clearly, that is not possible; however, the image helps to reinforce the idea of a thin film. It helps students to think shellac and to loose the varnish or lacquer coat-building mind set.
As further evidence of this "think thin" approach I will simply hold up the shellac finish on 200-year-old antiques. Those on which the shellac finish has remained largely intact (and there are many) are those on which the shellac film is quite thin. The ones that have alligatored are those on which the finisher built up a thick shellac film. In using shellac, you increase the amount of resin by mixing a heavier cut, not applying more coats.
Finally, application of shellac is best accomplished by padding, not brushing. Attempting to appy more that the first application by brush leads frequently to uneven buildup and stickiness. Brush on the first application, sand flat and then pad on two to three more appliations. Sanding should not be necessary unless you messed up during your padding.
So, with shellac, if it looks good, it is good. With a properly padded on shellac finish there should not be any need for "rubbing it out".
Howard,
application of shellac is best accomplished by padding, not brushing.
Indeed, with a properly prepared surface.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 5/31/2007 10:02 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
As a different point of reference, let me describe how the craftsmen at Colonial Williamsburg apply shellac, according to a presentation at one of their "Working Wood in the Eighteenth Century" presentations. They are using the shellac to fill pores since they mostly finish mahogany and walnut. They use a soft bristle mop like brush and a fairly thin cut--about 1 1/2 or 2 lb. as I recall. They then apply roughly 20 (twenty) "coats" and then sand fairly heavily with 220 grit to level. They then repeat this process--20 coats, then sand. Some more coats and then rub out. I presume that the conservation staff would object if were problems with this approach.
This seems excessive to me, but it does yield a finish that fits nicely among the period pieces in the collections.
If they are finishing to grain fill, I can see why the 20 coats on the first pass. At 6 at 2lb, I am finding that where I am sanding to level the finish, I am risking going through the finish. I learned the lesson the hard way; however, I have perfected the technique of spot mixing the dye directly with a heavy cut of shellac. I use a small artist brush to feather in the dyed shellac over the area and patching the finish. I then coat back up to the level of the rest of the finish with a small pad and the feather in the sanding.
It is a painful way to learn not to sand through (I am a lot more careful now) but you can't see the difference. It is the one area where the curly maple is very forgiving. The slightly lighter spots blend in with the highly varied figure.
Steve, I seem to recall them saying something like that at a very brief presentation I attended a number of years ago.One of the keys to applying shellac with a brush is to use a soft, large brush like those that marine varnishers use. You can load lots of material and apply it smoothly with a single, long, slow stroke. Where most amatuers go wrong brushing shellac is, in fact, "brushing". Shellac dries so fast that brushing will cause sticking to partially dried shellac. "Flowing" is the way to apply multiple and thick (relatively) applications.Howie.........
Yep, that's pretty much what they do, though its not really a slow coat that they were doing.
Personally I like brushing shellac, but I do it quite a bit differently than Colonial Williamsburg. I use a watercolor wash brush with very fine bristles (Taklon Gold is very nice). These have very little reservoir so they hold little shellac, but they flow it on quite evenly and thinly without any disernable brush strokes. I find the key is moving quickly, and as you say, NO "brushing", just one direction strokes. If I miss a spot I get it on the next coat. Overlaps aren't very significant because the coats are pretty thin, and as long as they don't occur in the same spot they too "average out" quickly.
Speed is the key, and being sensitive to the slightest hint of any drag. As you know, a dragging brush (same as a sticking pad) means the previous coating hasn't dried well enough. People who persist when the brush drags, or even try a wetter brush, run into the disaster of "rumpled" shellac. And, that's about the only thing that can go really bad while applying shellac.
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