Replies

1. 
   Paul_Snyder | Mar 27, 2004 08:18pm | #1

   Alan,

   One coat of Danish Oil is all you need; apply per the directions and let it dry completely before topcoating with shellac.

   Paul

1. 
   alanplanesaw | Mar 27, 2004 10:13pm | #2

   Paul,

   I am building a cradle out of cherry for my youngest daughter and her husband, actually their firstborn.  I am comfortable with construction, but have minimal experience in finishing.

   I have experimented with Watco Danish oil - natural with a scrap piece of wood.  Have heavily coated it with oil letting it really soak.  Wiping any seepage over a day.  Wet sanding in with 220, letting it dry; then wet sanding with 320, etc.  The wood comes out super smooth.  I generally like the looks of the wood.

   But that is going to take a while on the various pieces of the cradle.  Although I don't have any experience with shellac, that would be much faster.

   My thought was (based on no knowledge) to do the first couple steps with oil to get the smooth finish, but then finish up the last coat or two with shellac if it would look as good and if it would speed the process up by drying quicker.

   But, I don't know if shellac would work okay over Watco Danish Oil.

   Would appreciate any thoughts you might have.

   Alan - planesaw

   Edited 3/27/2004 3:14 pm ET by Alan

1. 
   Paul_Snyder | Mar 28, 2004 08:13pm | #3

   Alan,

   To get the look of an oil finish, in less time, use a wiping varnish. Oil-base varnish is amde with oil so it imparts the same look to the wood and because it's "cooked" with varnish resins (alkyd, phenolic, or urethane) it dries much faster. It's also more durable.

   The brand of wiping varnish isn't terribly critical; on his show, David Marks uses General Finishes Arm-R-Seal. It's a wipe-on varnish with urethane resins (polyurethane) that looks nice and offers good durability. I like to use Waterlox Original Satin; it's a tung oil and phenolic resin varnish that also looks good and offers good durability. There are a number of other brands that work as well.

   Here's the steps I would use for the finish;

   Sand the wood to 220 and remove the sanding dust.

   Using a cotton cloth or folded heavy duty paper towels (Scott Shop Towels/Box of Rags), wipe on a thin coat of the wiping varnish. Use only enough varnish to wet the wood evenly but not enough to allow and runs, drips, sags or pooling. Think of it like wiping the counter off with a damp/wet rag; very quick and easy. Don't go back once you wipe an area.

   Let the first coat dry for a couple hours (it should start getting tacky in minutes and be completely dry to the touch in a couple hours). If it's not dry, wait longer and spread the next coat thinner when applying. Then wipe on another coat, nosanding between coats. Let it dry overnight.

   Next day, use a very fine sanding sponge to smooth the finish. You can use 220 or 320 grit sandpaper but the sponge makes the task easier. Remove the sanding dust.

   Wipe on another coat and let it dry. If you like the look and feel, you're done. If not, you can wipe on more coats until you like it (2-3 coats a day). Sand between coats you allow to dry overnight.

   Paul

1. 
   alanplanesaw | Mar 28, 2004 11:37pm | #5

   Paul,

   One last question.  I have experimented with the Arm-R-Seal.  Looks good.

   Do you know if I can put Arm-R-Seal over Watco Danish Oil?    Will it stick?  Look good? etc.?

   Thanks for taking time to educate me about some finishes.

   Alan - planesaw

1. 
   Paul_Snyder | Mar 29, 2004 02:27am | #9

   Alan,

   You can apply varnish over oil, just make sure the oil is dry first; it can take a number of days depending on how much oil you apply, the humidity, temperature, and light (UV exposure). It's basically the same as using an oil-base stain before topcoating; the stain has to dry first so the topcoats will adhere well. For example, Minwax "Natural" doesn't have any pigments or dye in it; it seems to be just thinned linseed oil as far as I can tell. Think of linseed or tung oil the same way as the stain.

   BUT...(there's always a "but" ;) - You don't need to use an oil under the varnish. A lot of oil-base varnishes contain linseed or tung oil and will give the wood the same look as linseed oil alone (including the Arm-R-Seal or Waterlox). There are some brands that are made with light colored oils, like safflower or soya, and aren't as yellow or amber in color and will look a little different (the color difference is most obvious on light/white woods).

   Paul

2. 
   alanplanesaw | Mar 29, 2004 03:59am | #10

   Paul,

   Thanks for your patience with my questions.  One more!!

   You said I can do varnish over oil.  You obviously know more about this than I do, but the Arm-R-Seal says it is "oil and urethane."   Since I have used Watco Danish Oil on the wood, I would assume from what you are saying that another oil finish will do okay over it.  However, since Arm-R-Seal says "urethane," I am wondering if the urethane will work over the oil.

   Since Samuel arrived about 2 and a half weeks early, I am wanting to get this finished as soon as reasonably possible, but still doing it "right."  I have spent a chunk of evenings and weekends over the past couple of months to make a piece that will be cherished for years (hopefully), so I don't want to screw it up at the last stage.

   Based on your replies, I assume you have professional knowledge about finishing and woodworking.

   Thanks again,

   Alan - planesaw

3. 
   Paul_Snyder | Mar 29, 2004 06:33am | #11

   Alan,

   Basically there are three types of oil-base varnish; alkyd, phenolic, and urethane (polyurethane). The urethane varnishes are more prone to problems with adhesion and the manufacturer's don't recommend using them over some finishes like shellac that contains wax or sealers that contain stearates. It will work fine over an existing oil finish (or Danish Oil), as long as there aren't too many coats of oil/danish oil on the wood producing a "soft" surface. To promote adhesion, lightly sand the surface of the oiled wood with 220 grit sandpaper and remove the dust before applying the polyurethane.

   I'm not much help when it comes to general woodworking topics, but I do finishing for a living so I particoipate where I can. :)

   Paul

4. 
   AlbionWood | Mar 30, 2004 07:07am | #20

   BTW Alan, one more option to consider is Frid's Fast Fine Finish, described in Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking.  Basically you wipe on linseed oil, then immediately brush on a coat of shellac; just as the mess starts to get tacky, you rub off all the excess with 4/0 steel wool. 

   It is super-fast and produces a look comparable to multiple coats of oil.  Experiment to get the hang of it, and don't try it on too large an area; if the stuff sets up before you get it rubbed out it can be a real pain.  You can also subsequently pad on more shellac to get a deeper finish and higher gloss, or polish with wax for a smooth satin finish. "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler."  A. Einstein

   http://www.albionworks.net

2. 
   sawdustmaker | Mar 28, 2004 09:33pm | #4

   One of the great things about shellac is that it will adhere to almost anything. Just make sure whatever you are covering is dry. Some oils take quite a while to dry.

1. 
   alanplanesaw | Mar 28, 2004 11:40pm | #6

   Sawdustmaker,

   You are right, I have used oil finish for the first time and learned that some can take a long time to try.  Although I love the finish when I wet sand the 2nd, 3rd, etc., coats, that only adds to the time it takes to finish.  Long as time is not an issue, I'll continue the process.

   Thanks,

   Alan - planesaw

3. 
   notDusty | Mar 28, 2004 11:43pm | #7

                              Alan ,

          At the risk of raining on your parade , have you considered a finish that would not be toxic if gummed, chewed or eaten by Baby ?

                           better safe than sorry

1. 
   alanplanesaw | Mar 29, 2004 12:57am | #8

   Dusty,

   You bet.  Shellac is commonly used in products we eat.  Not that everything we eat is all that good for us!!!  But, that is one of the reasons for considering it.

   However, on the other hand, by the time the baby is old enough to move around and chew on things, he will be out of the cradle and in a baby bed.  That is one of the downsides to spending all this time on a cradle.  A lot of work for just a few months of life.  However, as any proud grandfather, not much is too good for a grandson.

   Thanks,

   Alan - -planesaw

1. 
   notDusty | Mar 29, 2004 05:19pm | #13

                       Alan ,

          I have never heard that "shellac is commonly used in products we eat". I was just wondering if you know of any of those products ?

                                thanks dusty

1. 
   Tberry | Mar 29, 2004 06:04pm | #15

   Dusty, a couple that I have heard of are M & Ms and time released medication. The time it takes for the body to break down the coating gives you the time release feature.A shop is a terrible thing to waste...

2. 
   alanplanesaw | Mar 30, 2004 04:00am | #16

   Dusty,

   Maybe more than you want to know, but to quote from just one website:

   LAC - The Natural Eco Friendly Resin has been in the existence for many centuries now and has entered the industrial world in 1900 A.D. with earlier uses for Lacquering and Polishing of wooden and cane furniture, wool colouring (from Lac Dye) and today probably used in most rather high tech. industries as mentioned here.In todays Modern Age - Oranges, Lemons and Apples are coated in the producing countries by using Shellac to extend the shelf life of the product and giving it a shine which other natural products cannot. Here Dewaxed Bleached Lac in powder & Dewaxed Decolorised Shellac in Flakes play their importance.Marzipan, Chewing Gum and chocolates are treated with with shellac in order to achieve a high gloss and a hard surface and also for protection against moisture.The Pharmaceutical Industry uses shellac as a coating for tablets, when a delayed dissolving in the intestine is required - slow release.Printing Ink, Food Grains also consume a lot of Shellac.

   Coating for confection, chewing gums, marzipan, chocolate nutties, jelly beans, etc.Coating for Coffee Beans.Binder for food marking ink and stamping ink.Binder for egg coating.Barrier Coating for processed food.

   A lot of pills, vitamins, also.

   Enjoy lunch!!

   Alan - planesaw

1. 
   notDusty | Mar 30, 2004 08:00am | #21

                       Alan ,

         Wow , thanks for the info , I am now totally informed .

                          thanks and good luck                dusty

3. 
   alanplanesaw | Mar 30, 2004 04:04am | #17

   Dusty,

   Just google "shellac coatings" and you will see more than you might want to know about all the things shellac is used for in foods and things we eat.  Some of the research is looking for alternatives, not so much because of any danger in eating shellac is in the manufacture of it.

   Alan - planesaw

1. 
   BarryO | Mar 30, 2004 10:22am | #23

   I understand shellac is just ground-up insect secretions, disolved in alchohol  -- "all-natural", you know.

   My wife's into dyeing, and tells me that a very common red dye used in foodstuff is also made from insects.  She gets a real chuckle when she picks up a bottle of Snapple, sees the "all-natural" line on the label, and then notices this dye listed in the ingredients.  Yea, it's all-natural, and certainly harmless, but if people only knew ...

2. 
   HowardAcheson | Mar 29, 2004 03:46pm | #12

   All modern finishes are required to be non-toxic when cured.

1. 
   notDusty | Mar 29, 2004 05:30pm | #14

                     Hi Howie ,

        This is different information from what I have known to be safe. So let me understand you more , once a finish is cured it is no longer toxic ? I hope you are correct, but don't understand how a petroleum product such as Watco or others once dry are no longer bad for you or toxic. Please , if you have any data on the subject , to help , that would be great. For eating or food utensils and such it seems non toxic products are always used .

                                thanks for your help                       dusty

1. 
   Paul_Snyder | Mar 30, 2004 04:11am | #18

   Dusty,

   Bob Flexner has an article on food safe finishes at this link - Food Safe Finishes.

   Paul

1. 
   notDusty | Mar 30, 2004 08:03am | #22

                  Paul S and Albionwood ,

       Thanks for the link , very informative and dispells many long lived myths.

                                  let there be shellac

                                               dusty

2. 
   AlbionWood | Mar 30, 2004 06:59am | #19

   "... once a finish is cured it is no longer toxic ?"

   That is correct.  See Flexner's article on the subject.

   http://www.popularwoodworking.com/features/finish3.html

   " I hope you are correct, but don't understand how a petroleum product such as Watco or others once dry are no longer bad for you or toxic."

   Read Flexner's article.  Basically the petroleum-derived solvents evaporate, and the petroleum-derived resins are nontoxic.  Only toxic components might be the metallic driers, and even those aren't all that bad (zinc, manganese, etc. - lead was discontinued long ago), and the quantities are too small to cause a problem (the dose makes the poison).

   The plastic cutting board you prepared your food on is a petroleum product.  The plastic utensils you get in the cafeteria are pertroleum products.  Etc... point being, petroleum does not equal toxic.

   The hype about "food-safe finishes" is just hype.  All modern finishes are safe when fully cured."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler."  A. Einstein

   http://www.albionworks.net

4. 
   Fingrs | Mar 30, 2004 03:53pm | #24

   Hi, Alan,

   Congratulation on your grandson!  I'm sure you're very proud.  As I may have mentioned, my niece's son arrived a bit early as well, but unfortunately he arrived with a cleft palate and is still in the hospital learning not to eat through a tube in his nose...

   My cradle is finally finished, so here's a photo.  As I've probaby mentioned a hundred times, I use Bartley's Gel varnish, which I have applied over danish oil with great success.  Aside from having to wipe the entire surface to apply and then remove excess, it leaves a delightfully smooth finish after just two coats. 

   My struggle now it to ship the cradle to Dallas so it arrives in one piece, but that's another discussion that the Knots folks have been very helpful with!

   Lofton