I like using an alcohol cut amber shellac to finish cherry products because of the nice color that it adds to the project and overall finished look. However it does not protect against water damage and i was wondering if it is ok to put a poly over shellac to add some water protection. If not, any other suggestions as to helping with this dilemma. Thanks.
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If you want to overcoat with poly varnish or any waterborne finish, you must use a dewaxed shellac. Poly and waterborne do not adhere well to shellac that contains its natural wax.
You have two choices. Use a dewaxed shellac. However, you will have to buy dewaxed flake shellac and make up your own if you want an amber shellac. There is no pre-mixed amber dewaxed shellac. The only pre-mixed dewaxed shellac is Zinnser's Sealcoat which is a 2# cut, blond shellac. It has little amber color.
The second choice is to use a non-poly varnish. Non-poly varnish will adhere just fine to standard shellac. Plus, you will end up with much nicer looking finish. You can use Waterlox Original Gloss or Satin or Behlen Rockhard. Both will give you virtully the same durability as poly varnish and will look nicer.
I just noticed that the Home Depot near me had Zinzer Amber Shellac. I think it was described as "garnet" Shellac. I've been using the stuff for years and this is the first time I have seen it in any thing other than Blond.
The Amber is what Zinsser used to call Orange shellac and which is still orange in the commodity trade for shellac. Garnet shellac is a different color--more bronze than orange and only available in flakes. Zinnser also makes Clear which used to be called White and which is a bleached shellac. (Bleaching makes the shellac a bit less water resistant) Zinsser's Seal Coat is a light colored dewaxed shellac. There is a whole range of shellac colors available to be mixed from flakes, ranging from very light to quite dark both waxed and dewaxed.
Several references may be found at at Jeff Jewitt's site
http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/shellac3.htm and
http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/shellac.htm
Their regular shellac is available in clear and amber. The SealCoat (dewaxed) is only in clear.
http://www.zinsser.com/subcat.asp?CategoryID=3forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Just a note: The SealCoat is more amber than the Clear but still light--perhaps more of a dirty blonde. The Clear is actual bleached shellac, almost platinum blonde, and is less durable, but is even lighter than Super Blonde shellac which is natural not bleached. (ie. it is lighter because more of the dye has been processed out, but there hasn't been a chemical bleaching.)
So the regular Shellacs are not dewaxed? That seems odd for a product sold at Home Depot. Now I have to look at what I have been using. I dont think it is bleached, but I am sure that it is dewaxed.
Mike
You are suprised Home Depot takes the "cheap" solution?
The only Zinsser liquid shellac without wax is SealCoat (the aerosol shellac is also dewaxed). Both the Amber (which used to be called orange) and the Clear (used to be white) contain wax and have for a very long time. The Bullseye brand moniker appears on all three varieties.
Edited 4/6/2006 11:04 am ET by SteveSchoene
Steve
You seam very knowledgeable in this area and I don't seam to be able to figure my problem out; I just recently put about 1/3 lb of garnet shellac in a quart jar and the flakes don't seam to be diluting, some, maybe 1/2 but its been a couple days now.
I just recently switched to garnet cause I wanted a darker/richer color, never had any problems with any of the other shellac flakes.
Got any thoughts?
Thanks
Doug
Possible problems might include flakes having been over heated--but this would probably have been noticable with clumped flakes before you added the shellac.
I assume the alcohol is fresh, though I would think it would take a lot of absorbed moisture to affect its ability to dissolve shellac. I have nearly poured paint thinner over the shellac flakes--catching myself soon enough, fortunately.
I would try mechanically agitating the flakes a few times to see if that doesn't get them started to dissolve. Sometimes the flakes do seem to just want to sit in a lump. I often end up "playing with the jar" to keep the flakes moving.
After you do get them dissolved, I would make a test of drying to see that the shellac dries hard and quickly.
Garnet dosen't soluabilize as well as more refined shellac. After a few days decant what is on top and pitch the rest.
Frank
If it has globbed together in a solid mass at the bottom of the jar, it could take a really long time to dissolve. Try shaking it a bitPete
Hi,
FWIW I'm attaching a spreadsheet I use to figure shellac cuts. I'm a relative beginner but I think it's right.
In any case I get great results with the proportions in the spreadsheet for 1.5 pound cut, either sprayed with a 1.3mm HVLP conversion gun or wiped on. I use mostly superblond dewaxed flakes, to avoid adverse reactions with other finishes.
-robert
Best to assume any shellac has it's original wax unless otherwise noted. I'm not totally following your post, too tired, had a fun day in Port Angeles today, and too much good food. g'night!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
ForestGirl, I wonder if you or someone else who has bought flakes can tell me: what are "super blonde dewaxed" supposed to look like? I bought a pound of Behlen's from Lee Valley. I've never bought or used shellac before, mixed or flakes, and they are ORANGE! And a one pound cut into denatured alcohol looks like orange Kool-Aid! I know the result isn't supposed to be totally clear, but I wonder if I got some flakes that are mislabeled? How would I know?
PS I used it as a wash coat to limit oil blotching on some cherry, so I'm not really worried about having ruined a finish, just really curious what I have on hand.
Can't help you there, Anon, I have flakes (just bought) but haven't gone that fundamental route yet. To get you some background while you're waiting for another post, though, take a read of Jeff Jewitt's shellac article:
http://homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/shellac.htm
Most pertinent info starts at the "The Many Varieties of Shellac" section.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
All shellac looks much darker when mixed or in flake form than it does when applied to your project. I don't have any experience with the Behlens super blond but I wouldn't be too surprised if it had an orange tint to it.
Rob
I just recently mixed up some Super Blonde (I think from Hock), and I wouldn't describe it as ORANGE when mixed, more of an amber color like varnish. If a coat or two of a medium cut looks orange, I'd say you got something other than blonde.Varnish/poly over shellac works great. Like shellac alone, it has poor resistance to heat. More surprisingly, it also can be damaged by ammonia just like shellac. I suspect that there are very small cracks in the poly taht alow this. Overall, it's much more durable than shellac alone.I like Arm-R-Seal urethane over shellac for a good combination of colonial look and durability.Pete
The superblonde flakes have a yellowish tint. When solulized in alcohol they are the colour of scotch whiskey. The orange flakes are a reddish caramel colour and when mixed up look more like bourbon.
I have a favorite finish for cherry which is:
linseed oil --- two coats of orange shellac --- then three to four coats of the blonde. I use 1 cap full of flakes from the Behlens container of flakes and then enough alcohol to fill a quart jar (around 2 lbs cut). I pad it on with a rubber (piece of old wool sweater wrapped up in a piece of cotton).
The oil "pops" the grain. The orange shellac gives it a warm look and the clearer blonde shellac adds depth to the finish. If you leave the completed piece out in the sun for a day or two before you put the finish on it is better yet. Let the oil sit on the wood for 24 hrs before you apply the shellac. If you want to spray lacuer over the shellac to water proof it that is actually very nice looking. Shellac with a good coat of paste wax is alot more water resistant then most people think.
Regards,
Frank
Erratum:
1` cap ful holds 4 oz so a two pound cut requires two caps in a quart of alcohol.
Frank
Now THAT'S the kind of description I can use! Step one: Dissolve shellac. Step 2: fill glasses with proper amber liquids. Step 3: Compare colors. Step 4: Drink appropriate liquids - DON'T drink the shellac. Step 5: What was I working on?
And, the one pound cut of Behlen's "Super Blonde Dewaxed" I got from Lee Valley is definitely bourbon, not Scotch. It just doesn't look like any picture of blonde I've seen, even considering that monitors don't render color very well. But I was thrilled, and more importantly, my wife and son were thrilled, with the final result on the cherry bed: a wash coat of 1# cut shellac followed by a couple coats of tung oil then wax.
I'm curious about using oil first: I've read many warnings, and had some problems myself, about cherry blotching when one applies oil first rather than some kind of sealer, which is what I did on the bed. What has your experience been?
I haven't had any problems with blotching with oil. I have used "tung" oil and BLO. I think you can easily blotch it if you put stain on it first without putting a wash coat of sealer or something like Minwax wood conditioner. Actually, I don't see the point in staining cherry.
Play around with some scraps. That is the safest way to experiment.
Regards,
Frank
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