My good and patient woodworking friends. I don’t know a thing about Shellac.
I’ll number my questions to make answering easier.
1. I understand (from a lunch conversation today) that Shellac is made from some silly south african exploding bugs that get scraped off a special kind of tree .. is that true?
2. I also heard that ~90% of the Shellac imported is used to coat fruit. Is that true? Yuk, bug guts preserving fruit!
3. Is that where the term “Shellac’d” (plastered or drunk) came from?
4. Does a Shellac finish last longer than Poly?
5. Is Shellac easier to apply than Poly?
6. Is it easier to stip off than Poly?
7. Does one have a deeper look than the other?
8. Can you really use danish oil on a piece (to darken it up) then Shellac it?
You don’t need to answer all these question, I’d be thankful if you just answered one!
Thank you in advance,
-Ken
Edited 5/5/2003 5:51:14 PM ET by Ken
Replies
Ken,
I'll take a stab at a few:
1. I understand (from a lunch conversation today) that Shellac is made from some silly south african exploding bugs that get scraped off a special kind of tree .. is that true?
Basically, yes, but I believe shellac is from India.
2. I also heard that ~90% of the Shellac imported is used to coat fruit. Is that true? Yuk, bug guts preserving fruit!
I believe that wood finish is the 10th usage of shellac in the US; first being in the food industry, including as a coating for candy. Also for some pills.
3. Is that where the term "Shellac'd" (plastered or drunk) came from?
unknown.
4. Does a Shellac finish last longer than Poly?
18th century furn was largely shellac finished, but poly isn't so old that a comparison would be possible.
5. Is Shellac easier to apply than Poly?
Different. It is an evaporative finish; poly is a reactive finish. Poly dries with air; shellac when the alcohol evaporates. Brushing 2d and subsequent coarts of shellac is difficult for me as the next coat melts the last. But it can be padded successfully, using mineral oil as a lubricant. Called french polishing, if you go far enough.
6. Is it easier to stip off than Poly?
YES!
7. Does one have a deeper look than the other?
Shellacs vary in color, from white and quitte pale, to garnet.
8. Can you really use danish oil on a piece (to darken it up) then Shellac it?
Yes, but boiled linseed oil is as good, and cheaper. No problem.
In sum, a wonderful and many faceted finish. Good sealer, and overcoater.
It's my belief that shellac is made from the excretions of the"LAC" bug and that it originated in China. That's all I got to say about that. Forrest Gump.
ken(with a small k)
s4s,
Was thinking of using the Danish oil to darken up the light wood (oak - don't know which variety), then Shellac. Would you recommend stain instead of the oil or does boiled linseed oil come colored? Or perhaps a darker shellac?
If I did oil then shellac, how long should I wait between them?
Thanks for your time,
-Ken
Ken,
Shellac is wonderful stuff and has been around for a long time. One of its great advantages is i can apply 6 coats in one day and rub it out to achieve a beautiful finish.
One of the short comings of shellac is it has been around a long time and there are numerous combinations of techniques for application either alone or with other finishes and stains/dyes/etc. The most important thing, IMHO, is to get a good book and follow one knowledgable persons recomendations / system. I'm sure that book will answer all your questions and you'll save a lot of cost and confusion in the process.
I'm waiting a week between BLO and shellac application with dye and then finishing with blond shellac...I'm experimenting...
BG,
Thanks for the advice to buy a book and follow a known system. Best of luck on your "experiment".
I don't know how you get the nerve to work so hard on a piece and then experiment on it's finish. You weren't an Alaskan king crab fisher in a former life, were you?
-Ken
Ken,
I'm working on an old mahogany dresser from the forties which used to be my fathers and will be used by my son. I've removed the old finish and sanded to 220 which made the piece look fairly consistent. However, when I hit it with the BLO the differences in the boards really jumped out. By appling the stain with the shellac you can get an even color and actually create a new grain look in the wood.....or sand it off if you don't like it. So as you can see, not so risky afterall....
PS. I may not know what i'm doing...but I'm gonna have fun..lol
Edited 5/6/2003 1:24:57 PM ET by BG
BG,
What's BLO? <edited> Sorry, Boiled Linseed Oil! Takes me a while sometimes </edited>
Just curious and I probably didn't read you right but, How did applying a consistent stain/shellac mix on different boards create a consistent appearance?
Again, Thanks for your patience because I'm sure not worthy of it.
-Ken
Edited 5/6/2003 2:17:14 PM ET by Ken
Edited 5/6/2003 2:27:14 PM ET by Ken
Ken,
BLO = boiled linseed oil
When you seal the piece first with Shellac or whatever, the stain does not get absorbed into the wood and, in effect, creates an even color across the piece. Back in the forties and fifties, so I have been told, usually a piece was sealed first before the stain was applied....these were not high quality pieces where the boards were bookmatched, etc. ..sealing first helped keep the color consistent across the piece.
A few weeks ago I put the dye in the shellac and applied it all at once on a board. At first I thought I had a diaster because I could see the brush stokes of darker stain, but as I added additional coats of just shellac and rubed out the finish it actually came out quite nice....the brush strokes melted into wood grain and the piece looked nice and even in color...
I'm sure someone will jump on my bones and tell me how wrong I am...but shellac is so flexible its fun to experiment.
One of the main uses of washcoats is to help prevent blotching on woods such as cherry, alder, birch and pine, which tend to absorb a given stain in an uneven fashion. The washcoat partially seals the wood and helps prevent blotching. I'm not so sure that mixing the stain with shellac would work consistently for this purpose on woods such as those.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
A million possibilities, and all are good. You could color the BLO with a pigmented stain. You could go with a clear BLO, and tint the shellac with a dye, which will give you more grain show through. You could use a colored shellac (orange; garnet, etc). The oil will pop the grain on the stock, which if it is a figured wood, is good. On oak, it doesn't need much popping, unless you are using a quartered oak, with much ray flecking, etc. 3 -7 days is good for a wait. The other comments above are all ones with which I agree, but believe me, I am no expert. One weekend with Jeff Jewitt was a real treat ( a course I took a few weeks ago); shellac is one of his favorite finishes. Learned to pad it from him, ala french polishing. I couldn't believe how easy it was. The mistique is undeserved in terms of difficulty.
Relax, everyone, it's not "bug guts" !! Shellac is a "natural resin that's derived from the secretions of the lac bug, an insect that feeds off trees indigenous to India and Thailand. The secretions, in the form of cocoons, are gathered from the trees."
[Jeff Jewitt, Great Wood Finishes, pg. 51; emphasis added]
I saw a picture somewhere of this huuuuuugggggggggge sheet of shellac that a man was holding up, like the size of a cow hide, and you could see right through it!
PS: Shellac's big drawback as a finish is it's lack of protection against water and alcohol. IMO, though, it has a nicer look to it than poly. I like to use it on appropriate pieces that won't be subject to abuse. And, of course, it's wash coat properties are invaluable.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 5/5/2003 10:36:27 PM ET by forestgirl
Yea, I thought the exploding bug thing was a stretch.
So it's peeled off a tree, ground up and sold as chips. I would then mix it up with alcohol (what kind? isopropyl?). I suppose the Shellac bottles have directions.
I understand from a short article I read tonight that Shellac doesn't last on the shelf for long. It said it will not be able to harden over time. So I would mix up what I plan to use in the near term.
Can you wipe it on with a rag or is it strictly for brushing?
What's a wash coat property?
-Ken
The solvent for shellac is denatured alcohol, sold in hardware and paint supply stores. The various applications of shellac, "cuts", recipes and uses really require a couple of chapters in a book, which in order to avoid frustration and despair, I'd recommend for you before going too far with spot advice from us (insert: grin). Just the highlights:
Shellac can be applied with a brush or a cloth (special process called "padding", not easy to do correctly, takes practice, I've not tried it *yet*.
It's true that it has a limited shelf life in liquid form, although Zinnser makes a specially formulated shellac that has a much, much greater shelf life than other brands
"Washcoating" is the process of applying a thin coat of finish (or slow-evaporating solvent) on bare wood to help seal the pores a bit and provide for more consistent absorption of stain when it's applied. For washcoating, shellac is generally applied in a 1-pound cut (1 lb. flakes to 1 gallon alcohol).
For some applications, one needs to use "dewaxed" shellac, to prevent interference with future coats of finish. It can be bought already dewaxed, or dewaxed at home by a sort of decanting. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Click here for Jeff Jewitt's on-line article on shellac, it's uses, varieties, advantages, etc., etc.
Click here for some examples of different shellac looks on different woods.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Wow, those two links are great. Shellac has a really cool history. I wonder why the Orange Shellac looks yellow? I should just take one of Jeff's classes.
Thank you for your time and patience answering my questions.
-Ken
The two books that Mr. Beans listed are great resources. I don't have Flexner's book yet, but it's next on my list. I've wasted a fair amount of pocket change on second-rate (and worse) finishing books! forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I totally agree with your point on second-rate books.
Get this. I got an "everything you wanted to know about making kitchen cabinets but were ata" book in the mail yesterday. The "cabinet maker's" suggestion was to buy pre-maid cabinet doors! I laugh now, but I was red-faced ticked ($21). I couldn't believe it! Basically a book on making big boxes out of MDF. Doohh.
-Ken
Ken
I've used orange and white shellac off and on through the years. It dries fast and is very forgiving, easy to repair. It don't like alcohol or water and I can't believe it is used in the food industry. In the past pottery coming out of Mexico that had been shellacked was not recommended for food use.
Gods Peace
les
Some books that I have that I like and explain about Shellac and other Finishes
Great Wood Finishes-Jeff Jewitt
Understanding Wood Finishing-Bob Flexner
The 2 books are VERY good.
I'm new to finishing and the books are a great help
On the finish that I am trying to figure out" old mission look" the amber shellac adds a great warm color over the Dark Danish oil stain
I think Amber Shellac alone looks great gives it a rich older look.
Maybe a Shellac Guru will post and teach us about Shellac used along with other finishes.
Ken - lots of good info coming in already, and I'll add a bit to the flow.
5. Is Shellac easier to apply than Poly?
6. Is it easier to stip off than Poly?
Shellac is a lot different than poly. It dries much faster and requires a completely different brushing technique. There is no "tipping off" with shellac - flow on a wet coat and move on - don't touch it again until it's dry.
7. Does one have a deeper look than the other?
Shellac (and lacquer) are very optically clear. These two finishes stand apart from other finishes - and they behave very similarly. Neither are as durable as poly.
8. Can you really use danish oil on a piece (to darken it up) then Shellac it?
Jeff Jewitt covers this technique in his book "Great Wood Finishes." You can use danish oil, boiled linseed oil, Minwax "Natural" stain, or a number of oil-base products fot this effect. It doesn't have as much effect on some woods as others and it also causes a mottled/blotchy look on some woods like cherry and alder. Experiment on scraps of different woods as you work on pieces to see if you like the effect (or if has a distinct effect).
The books by Jeff Jewitt and Bob Flexner are at the top of the list of finishing books. For a lot more detail on shellac, and other classic finishes, get a copy of Sam Allen's "Classic Finishing Techniques."
There's also quite a bit of info on the web. Others have provided some links and some of these are probably duplicates;
Selecting A Finish by Jeff Jewitt - introduction to and comparison of different finishes, including shellac. Has a link to a chart that compares the properties of finishes.
Shellac - A Traditional Finish by Jeff Jewitt - covers shellac from the bug's butt to fine finish
Padding Shellac by Jeff Jewitt - how to apply shellac using the padding method
French Polishing - A Comprehensive Tutorial by Bob and Orville Milburn - a step-by-step guide to the classic French Polish technique.
Brushing Shellac by Donald Williams - tips for selecting a brush to use with shellac
Shellac - The Woodworker's Pal Shellac.net - interesting tidbits about shellac including recommended reference material (Sam Allen's book has a LOT of coverage on the subject)
Shellac Finishing by Donald Williams - another "all-around" article on shellac - includes processing techniques and brief coverage of application techniques, including spraying and brushing
Shellac Cuts Wood Finishing Supplies (.com) - ratios of shellac flakes to alcohol for various cuts of shellac along with the solids contents of the cut (useful to determine film thickness)
Shellac Grades #1 Wood Finishing Supplies (.com) - pictures of various shellac grades on different wood species - shows the color each grade of shellac imparts to the wood
Shellac Grades #2 Homestead Finishing (.com) - more pictures of various shellac grades on different wood species - shows the color each grade of shellac imparts to the wood
Zinsser "Seal Coat" .pdf file technical data sheet for Zinsser "Seal Coat" - a two pound cut of de-waxed shellac that's pre-mixed and widely available
Zinsser "Bulls Eye" Shellac .pdf file technical data sheet for Zinsser "Bulls Eye" shellac - a waxy shellac that should NOT be topcoated with polyurethane
Paul
Paul,
Wow! Thank you for taking your precious time to answer these questions compile this list. I'll get busy collecting these books and reading.
-Ken
Actually the term shellacked means to beat decisively, and comes from the Persian word "shallaq" which means "a whip".
It's possible shellacked at one time could have meant drunk, and in that context the derivation was most likely prison slang. Inmates would probably drink shellac from the finishing shop.
Jeff
I got interested in the French Polish finish. I have done a couple of upright jewelry amoires with it. I used the method written by Geo Frank in an old FW mag. It is a lot of work but it is a beautiful finish on the marbled walnut that I used. Mostly I just wanted to see if I could do it like the "old timers did" Blows my mind to think about top line pianos being finished with it years ago.
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