I have inadvertantly sprayed a light coat of un cut shellac onto my project (using as a seal coat) & have now realized that I should have diluted it. The project is made from okume, maple & poplar & since maple tends to blotch, I was going to use a seal coat to control the stain/dye.
Have I totally screwed this up…please help, this is for my wife, she is 9 months pregnant & has a key to the gun cabinet!
Thanks,
V
Replies
2 lb. cut is a bit heavy as a wash coat. I assume you have tested this on scrap and found insufficient penetration of the dye.
You could sand much of the shellac off, this would likely allow a pigmented stain to work reasonably well, though it might not be sufficiently even to allow dye to penetrate evenly enough. Denatured alcohol removes shellac, but you might have to be very thorough to get it off evenly enough to allow dye to penetrate evenly. Enough effort at removing shellac can work, but I suspect a lot of effort would be required.
A gel stain could do a reasonable job at replacing the pigmented stain since it doesn't require penetration. Then you could add additional color by spraying dyed shellac as a toner.
I have not tested this on scrap yet...maybe I am just jumping the gun.
I do have a piece of scrap that I have also sprayed with uncut shellac. I will try sanding a bit & seeing if the dye takes.
The gell stain sounds like a good solution also if I need to go that route. I guess I just need reassurance that I have not ruined my project.
Thanks,
Vwalla
What was the cut of the shellac you sprayed? the product with the brand name SealCoat is a dewaxed 2# cut thatworks nicely as a wash coat.
That is the problem. I used clear shellac right out of the can...no cut at all (I am new to this incase you can't tell). IT sprays very nice (HVLP). I put a very light coat on...sort of a light sheen on the project, but does show some depth to the grain now.
V
The brand name was Bulls Eye if that helps...clear shellac.
"Bull's Eye" is a Zinsser name, but there's more than one product under that name. If you have SealCoat it's a 2# cut, dewaxed, great for a wash coat, though often diluted to 1# for such a purpose. If the can just says Bull's Eye Shellac, then it's a regular (waxed) shellac. I think it's heavier than a 2# cut, have to check the can.
To Steve: I'm curious if a wipe-down with DNA would work instead of sanding??forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
It is the shellac...not the seal coat.
I just saw it at Lowe's about an hour ago & began kicking my self in the "yopu know where".
I am curious too about a DNA wipe down...please expand on this if possible.
Thx
If you have a very light coat, why do you think you have a problem?
As to DNA, that is the main solvent for shellac. If you wipe the thing down with it, you can pick up most of it. Then you can give it a coat of the SealCoat in 2# or even cut further. Really, the main attraction of seal coat is that it is dewaxed, so it will adhere to almost anything, and most non-shellac finishes will adhere to it.
I guess I am just being overly cautious. I think I will try a light sanding and go forward.
Thanks
Makes sense to me.
I, too, would try a wipe-down with denatured alcohol -- if indeed there's even a problem with the shellac you put on. I just checked the can of Zinsser's Bull'sEye Shellac, and it is a 3-lb cut (as opposed to the SealCoat, which is 2-lb). I guess you'll have to make a judgment call here.
Whatever way you go, as always (and especially with the pregnant wife) -- test on scraps first!! All the work you've put into the project, it's worth a little extra time to be sure the finishing goes the way you want it to.
Congrats on the pending arrival.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 1/24/2007 6:46 pm by forestgirl
Well I would not test pregnant wife on a scrap first- neither would I in this case sand that "light coat"- I would merely rub it down with steel wool or scotchbrite pad and carry on . If you were going to put on a finish that may not be compatible with a shellac that has not been dewaxed I would cover my rear by shooting some Bulls Eye Zinsser dewaxed sealer- great antidote for all kinds of potential problems.
vwalla,
Simple!
Wipe it off with denatured alcohol after chasing your wife from the room (send her buying baby clothes) alcohol isn't good for her to breathe.
wipes right off! start fresh with it properly cut. open a window so that when she arrives back home it's clear air!
Can I use some sort of abrasive (steel wool) along with DNA to aid in the removal. I have sprayed some more coats on & I do ot like the color & want to "strip" it back to the wood.
I have started with a rag & elbow grease, bt it seems like it will tak em forever.
Thanks,
V
Yes, you can. I particularly recommend synthetic steel wool (3-M pads), though if you get too carried away you can abrade the wood enough to affect the patina.
The most important advice you've gotten is to not test the finish with the real piece. That applies even where you are now. Get some scraps, sand or scrape just like the real piece, apply shellac just like the piece. Then test the entire stripping and re-finishing process on the scraps.Pete
Thanks Steve...I will do that.
Pete...I agree...I thought it was all going well, but apparently not.
It seems to be coming off ok (I can get to the bare wood since it is all shellac). I plan on going fairly dark & high lighting the molding with gel stain after I seal it up, so I should be OK.
Thanks all for the advice.
V
Yeah, you never know what's going to happen when you're a few steps in if you haven't tested it. Test pieces also help you to dial in exactly the color and effect that you're looking for. I've got some figured maple samples I'm working on now for a project where I'm comparing shellac, dye/shellac, dyed shellac, Arm-R-Seal, etc. This board was so amazing that I'll post some pics in the gallery once it's done.Pete
Unfortunatley I had to go to my "real job" this AM, but I did get the top stripped & half of the side. It is all coming off nicley. It is actually leaving a bit of dark in the grain of the okumie (which I like) and it is totaly clear on the maple. I think all is going to be good now.
When professional finishers stain/dye a piece of furniture (sort of like something you would buy at Star Furniture), how do they get that effect? That is sort of what I am trying to accomplish. I know that a toner will blend the 3 different woods together (poplar, maple, & okumie), but I tend to get a high sheen after a few coats & really what I am looking for is a dull sheen that I can put a satin poly over. Since it is a liquor/wine cabinet, I am sure it will get a lot of use in my house :).
Thanks,
V
Oh yeah...I am testing it first also...I have learned my lesson.
> When professional finishers stain/dye a piece of furniture (sort of like something you would buy at Star Furniture), how do they get that effect? Mass-produced furniture generally has a multi-layer finish with a lot of toner. This allows the manufacturer to get very consistent color from piece to piece, at the cost (or benefit since their materials aren't going to be the finest either) of severely obscuring the underlying wood.Pete
When professional finishers stain/dye a piece of furniture (sort of like something you would buy at Star Furniture), how do they get that effect?
Again I'll ditto what Pete said. In addition to that I would add that there are a multitude of ways to skin a cat ala factory finishes. It depends on the wood species and the desired color.
I haven't worked in a furniture factory since the very early 90s, but what I remember was anything from a simple spray and wipe oil stain (ala Watco/Minwax) on Oak to multip-step colors (ie, dye, wipe stain, toner, etc) on faux "Cherry" lines made of Alder and dark-colored Oak. Since those days I've worked primarily with custom work where I develop a stain system to meet a customer's requirements.
As I say, it all depends on what color you want and how opaque you want it to look. Although I would caution that as a DIYer how profesionals do it in a production setting isn't overly relevant since they have professional equipment at their disposal. Usually a DIYer can replicate the general look of a factory finish, but using different techniques/equipment. For example, a gel stain is an easy way (depending on a variety of factors) to replicate the opacity of a professionally applied toner which, as Pete says, will tend to obscure the wood while simultaneously producing a very even coloration.
That said... since you have an HVLP spray gun and aren't limited to just hand applying the stain... one of my current favorite ways of toning which doesn't obscure the wood is to use a dye-based toner instead of a pigment-based toner. With nothing more than mixing and matching a wipe stain with a dye toner you can achieve a very wide variety of coloration scheme. Very wide variety! Throw in wash sealer techniques and or waiting until after a full sanding sealer coat has been applied before applying the toner, you can really manipulate the end product to a very high degree.
But... always, always, always test it out on scrap first! And don't use too small a piece of scrap either. Doing a multi-step finish on a 2"x2" square piece of scrap won't necessarily translate to a monster dresser or hutch. Mostly because how long a wipe stain, for example, sits on the tiny piece of scrap before you wipe it doesn't really translate to how long it'd sit on a huge piece of furniture before you'd get around to wiping it all down. In that case the scrap will almost always turn out lighter than the actual furniture. So one has to be careful to not rush the steps in working out the process on scrap. Better yet, use a much larger piece of scrap because that will yield a more realistic system.
AWI (Architectural Woodworking Institute) specs require veneered samples to be no smaller than 8"x10" and solid wood samples to be no smaller than 50 square inches. As a finisher, having to produce samples those sizes will tend to yield a very realistic stain system.
Doing a multi-step finish on a 2"x2" square piece of scrap won't necessarily translate to a monster dresser or hutch.
True story: My first job outside of high production factory finishing/painting. I worked for a custom commercial fixture outfit and we got a job to produce some fixtures for a high-end chain store which sold nothing but goose down filled products (pillows, comforters, etc.). The specified substrait was birds eye Maple and they supplied me with the smallest sample I've ever seen. It was literally 1"x1" square. It was obviously a multi-step finish which looked to be a minimum of three distinctly separate color steps.
I came as close as I could to copying the sample, but with it being so freaking tiny it was exceptionally difficult the judge how good a match it was. Plus this was my very first attempt at creating a multi-step finish scheme. Prior to this everything I'd done had been figured out by others and my job was just to apply it per the dictated specs.
Long story, short... They loved my sample and the resulting fixtures. However, it didn't match the rest of the chain-wide look very closely and fortunately for me and my employer they decided that what I'd done would become the new corporate standard and had all the other stores change to match my work... using larger color samples of course.
LOL it is ALWAYS better to be lucky than to be good! Particularly for finishers.
You guys are awesome! Thanks for all your detailed input. Like I said...I will post pics of it when I am finished.
Thanks!
You get dull sheen by sanding (320 grit) before you put any varnish on it, so whether the toner ends up glossy or not doesn't matter. Single part polyurethane varnish varnish is particularly "picky" about to what is adheres. It won't stick to shellac with wax in it, and even without that problem varnish needs the roughness that sandpaper brings since the coats don't chemically bond together (in most cases). You must also sand between each coat of varnish.
Well, I guess it was a blessing in disguise that the finish stunk so bad that I had to strip it. The shellac had wax in it, so I would have had problems down the road anyways.
Anyone have any tricks on speeding up the stripping process. I am sure burning calories rubbing this thing down, not to mention my hand are like ICE even with rubber gloves on.
(I am in the Houston area...it does not take much for us to get chilled to the bone down here!)
I posted the cabinet in the Knots Gallery.
Here is the link: http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=34148.1
Thanks for everything. I think it turned out nice.
Vwalla
Pete is absolutely right. The best way to cut your loses at this point would be to replicate on scrap exactly what you have right now and then work out a solution. Whatever works on the scrap should work the exact same on the actual piece.
vwalla
Yeh, if it's a really large area and you're as limp wristed as I am using a little 0000 steel wool seems to speed it up a great deal.
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