Replies

1. 
   forestgirl | May 08, 2007 03:41pm | #1

   "Aren't all these jointers made in the same factory overseas? "  Probably not, but whatever...I can guarantee you that anything I design and make in my shop wouldn't hold a spark, let alone a candle, to something Philip, Lee, Sarge, BG, not to mention Richard Jones and many others, would design and make using the same tools. 

   I'd say buy the one with the design features you like the most, don't leave out Grizzly, and certainly take a look at anything Steel City has to offer.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 
   
2. 
   blewcrowe | May 08, 2007 04:27pm | #2

   Jeff, one "opinion" about overhead buttons. They are popular because of their ease of startup, but I prefer the lowdown ones. I can glue or jig them up in a way I can bang them with my knee and shut them off without removing my hands from the work.

3. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | May 08, 2007 04:47pm | #3

   Good morning Jeff...

   I really like what the Wood Whisperer does and he does a nice job of it, but.... I would compare the 60 B and W1741 side by side and then ask the Wood Whisperer why he recommended a jointer without the parallel beds and a smaller HP motor over the $400 less expensive Shopfox?

   I would be willing to bet that if he has made an in-depth comparison as I did when I recently purchased a 8" jointer, his recommendation was not issued standing on solid ground. At one time name brand alone could equate to better quality, but the playing field has changed quite a bit over the last 10-15 years.

   Tp put to rest the fact the SF is cloned after the DJ 20.. it is but has a much larger motor. To put to rest that SF is owned by Grizzly, it is and it is the same jointer with a different paint scheme. SF is just marketed locally by distributors instead of distributed inter-net.. catalog.. show-room from only 3 main show-room locations reducing the middle man. To put to rest the Grizzly is well received by it's owners, it is and deserves the reputation that they spout.

   I once had someone tell me they purchased some great "glove oil" for softening a new baseball glove. Made by "Louisville Slugger" and distributed in a 1.5 oz. plastic bottle for $4.95 (1986 price). The purchaser was thrilled with it and thought the price was great carrying a "Louisville Slugger" label. Whoa... buddy. Good stuff indeed.........

   Well.... he was thrilled till I turned his "little 1.5 oz. bottle" around and pointed to the contents. 99.5% mineral oil, .05% dye. I had always used mineral oil to soften gloves and could be purchased for around $.99 for a 12 oz. bottle at a local drug store. 

   With the invent and wide-spread use of the internet as a rapid means of communicating, you can only hide behind "name brand" for so long. Someone is going to get smart and look at the contents in comparison and ask... "Why such a large price difference"?

   And when they do, in the words of a song by the immortal blues singer and guitarist Ben E. King; "The Thrill is Gone".. "gone away for good"....

   Perhaps you just like the color scheme well enough on that "name brand" to pay the extra $400 and skip the paralellgram bed. Perhaps! Then again, you might compare the contents and ask, "why so much more for so less"?

   Enjoy the new Shopfox if my gambling intuition is as sharp as  I think it is!  ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha...

   Regards...

   Sarge.. jt

1. 
   woodman2263 | May 09, 2007 11:28pm | #7

   Sarge,

   You were right, I was on my way to pickup the Shop Fox 1741 and my local Powermatic dealer calls and says he will sell me the Powermatic Parr. (the beast) for $1200.  He has one on the floor he wants to get rid of. 

   Now what do I do?  Please preach to me.

    

   Jeff

1. 
   woodman2263 | May 09, 2007 11:51pm | #8

   Rob, Forestgirl, blew and others,

   Do you guys have an opinion on this situation?

1. 
   forestgirl | May 10, 2007 03:14am | #9

   I guess my opinion is that you seem to be really wound up about this.  Going back to your original post, you state that you don't have room for the big Powermatic.  Has something changed in that respect? 

   Since you asked, the following are my opinions:  (a) having something that's a clone of a DJ20 wouldn't be a deal-maker for me.  I'd get a Powermatic or, more likely due to price, a Grizzly any day over a Delta; (b) I'd rather bend a little at the waist to turn off a jointer than to have to reach over a board that's in trouble, and I like the aforementioned idea of a knee-activated power switch if there are concerns about said trouble (haven't had that kind of situation with a jointer yet, but am aware that trouble certainly can happen).  By the time you get it up on a mobile base, maybe that bend won't be as big a deal?

   Are the table lengths comprable?

   You're looking at a difference of about $400-$450 Powermatic > Shop Fox, right?  If you don't have to go into debt to spend that extra, and if your research indicates that Powermatic is a significantly better machine than the Shop Fox, go for it. 

   Given the PITA that swapping out knives is, and how easily they get chipped (guess what happened in my shop yesterday...), I'd be more likely to get the Grizzly G0490 (parallelogram beds) and upgrade the cutterhead to something with inserts.  But then again, it's always easy to dream with someone else's money!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

2. 
   blewcrowe | May 10, 2007 03:07pm | #12

   Woodman, my familiarity with the ShopFox is limited so I'm reluctant to comment. Me, I would look at what features are the most critical to my style of woodworking.

   The weight of the machine: usually in stuff like this, more is better.

   The ease of adjustability and tweaking: for me, I'm no pro wrench, I want it relatively carefree, or to have maintenence that doesn't require I have a degree in subdimensional physics.

   Superb quality results: I'm a glorified hobbyist so basically, I want the best machine, one that will help patch over my lousy work. <bseg> A bidness man would probably look harder at weighing the economics.

   Tough call. OTOH, will you really go wrong with either?

1. 
   colebearanimals | May 10, 2007 07:08pm | #13

   Sarge makes some valid points in my opinion. Consider the 8" Grizzly with the spiral cutterhead. The difference this kind of cutter makes is far greater than the performance difference between the Powermatic and the Shop Fox brands. I have the Grizzly. Really, really good jointer.

                                      Paul

2. 
   creekwood | May 10, 2007 05:34am | #10

   I can't tell you anything about the Shop Fox, but, like I said before, the Powermatic has really impressed me. It's a heavy duty machine, and has upped the quality of cut I've had in the past. I payed more than $1200, so I'm thinking you've got a pretty good deal there. I put the mobile base on it, my shop needs as much room as possible. That's another option.

   Good luck with your decision.

3. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | May 10, 2007 07:19am | #11

   Evening Woodman...

   Actually you can get the Power-matic for $1378 (based on 6% sales tax) as you are going to have to purchase a mobile base for a 600 lb. + machine. You are going to pay sales tax. You should have read the fine print. ha.. ha...

   Got yourself painted in a corner it appears. I'm not going to tell you one way or the other which to get. You make the call! I will point out a few specifics and then tell you what I would do.

   What do you get for $1378 with Power-matic?

   A parallel bed with 2 HP motor, no mobile base, 3 knife cutter-head and a long 82" table. And of course the mustard yellow paint job with the name Power-matic tattoed on the side. And at a clearance price to boot.

   What do you get with the $820 (sale tax)  Shopfox or Grizzly as they are the idenical machine except paint color?

   A parallel bed with 3 HP motor, mobile base built on, 4 knife cutter-head, and a 75 5/16" table which is 6  11/16" shorter. And of course a 2 year warranty with Shopfox and 1 year with Grizzly.

   My question to you is what about the Power-matic that even on clearance makes it $425 more? Where's the beef?

   Now for what I would do..... (drum roll) I wouldn't get either! :>)

   I would order a Grizzly 0593 which is on sale and shipped for $1068.

   What would I get with that $1068 0593?

   2 HP with spiral cutter-head, 75" bed sitting on dove-tailed ways and hand wheels instead of levers.

   As to why....

   I don't lilke the design of the tables on a parralel-gram jointer. They all have a longer in-feed table and a shorter out-feed. If I have a 37" table going in.. I want just as much table for support going out.

   I personally don't like levers. I find the wheels much easier to get a fine adjust and quicker to do so personally.

   I had rather sacrifice the price of parallel-gram for something I consider more useful. I got my first jointer in 1973 with dove-tail way. I have never had a problem with any of the 4 jointers I have owned over 35 years with them.

   So...... good luck with your decision. Idenify where the beef is and you have your answer! ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..

   Regards...

   Sarge.. jt

    

   Edited 5/10/2007 12:20 am ET by SARGEgrinder47

1. 
   forestgirl | May 10, 2007 07:19pm | #14

   Sarge, can you 'splain your preference of spiral cutters over a shelix-style with inserts?  I yearn for the luxury of being able to simply turn one of those tiny squares around when it gets chipped, rather than putting in a whole new (or sharpened) set of blades, LOL!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

1. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | May 10, 2007 07:47pm | #15

   Afternoon Jamie..

   I have never had the opportunity to use the shelix type, so better left to those that have compared both. There probably won't be a ton of folks with those qualifications lined up to answer our question as I would also like to hear from several that have compared both in actual usage.

   I was impressed with the spiral even though I opted for a SC 8" which has standard HSS's. I like the normal cut of a HSS and the SC has double sided blades that you basically just flip over without a ton of fuss as I have had to do with 3 previous jointers.

   I really liked the Griz and SF jointers, but went with SC for the 5" X 48" fence which is large and to me that is important along with table length. Jointers are a rather simple design with most being equal except for a few break-thru's as the shelix and spiral. And even then we aren't talking about finding the "Holy Grail" so to speak.

   Other than that, they are very close to identical with exceptions of table, fence, motor sizes and hand wheels or levers. Just a choice of what the manufacturer decided he thought the public would respond to over-all.

   Regards...

   Sarge.. jt 

   Edited 5/10/2007 12:48 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47

2. 
   BillBrennen | May 12, 2007 12:37am | #16

   Forestgirl,Most "spiral heads" sold today are insert heads. The HSS spiral heads use a thin knife that twists into the slot in the cutterhead. They are a true helical cutter. These give a wonderful cut when sharp, very quiet and no lines. But carbide inserts stay sharp a lot longer.A spiral insert head has perfectly square inserts that each meet the work at a normal angle, like a traditional straight knife head. They are quieter and safer than a 3 or 4 knife head because the many cutting impacts are small and are well-distributed around the circumference of the cutterhead. This is especially true when face jointing wider stock.The Shelix heads from Byrd Tool are a true helical cutter, but the edge is a series of inserts, so one can get some lines due to imperfections in the inserts, head machining, etc. These inserts are ground with a 4" radius so that the corners stay out of the cutting circle. If a straight knife edge is rotated to ten degrees shear on a jointer head, the corners will describe a larger cutting circle than the edge will, resulting in ugly lines.A huge advantage of the Shelix cutterhead is that it takes many small shearing cuts, and is very quiet. We have retrofitted all the 8" jointers at the college where I teach woodworking, and the students will line up to use an old 8" jointer with a Shelix head while a nearby Euro jointer sits idle with its straight knife Tersa cutterhead. The Shelix also cuts reversed grain cleanly.Bill (visiting from Breaktime)

3. 
   forestgirl | May 12, 2007 01:55am | #17

   Hi, Bill, glad you wandered by here at Knots.  Thanks for the detailed info.  I just hope I someday get to put it to use in a real-life selection process!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

4. 
   creekwood | May 08, 2007 07:51pm | #4

   I know you've already said you want the smaller one, but I can tell you how pleased I am with the larger Powermatic. I got one about 2 months ago, and am still wondering how I got along all these years with my little 6" Enco. It's well-made, and does a great job; smooth finish with the straight blades, and easy to adjust. The rabbetting ledge was busted in transit, but I had a new one in two days. I'm sure it helped that I dealt with a local supplier, but I still believe the company would have been just as prompt if I had called.

   Just wanted to muddy the water a little. Don't get too confused on what you want.

1. 
   furndr | May 08, 2007 08:06pm | #5

   I too have a Powermatic. I don't recall the model but it is a 6" model with a long bed. I previously had a Walker-Turner that had gotten a little out of tune. The Powermatic works much better. It's a great machine! It came with  two extra sets of knives and they are easy to install and adjust. It retailed for about $899. if I remember correctly.

     

    

5. 
   ohcomeon | May 09, 2007 05:41am | #6

   Jeff; everything that Sarge mentioned is right on the mark.  As you pointed out, you get essentially the Grizzly 0490 which has gotten great reviews with the bonus of a local dealer, no freight, and an extra year on the warranty (2yr).

   When I bought my 1741 it was next to a DJ20 on the floor; virtually identical machines, except the DJ20 doesn't have a built-in mobile base.  So chalk up another plus for the SF on top of having 2x the horsepower (only a disadvantage if you don't have 220 in the shop).

   As for Powermatic; again Sarge is on the button.  I have a PM 64A tablesaw and it has a number of flaws.  And PM's customer service was pure crap, to put it nicely.  I will never buy another mustard yellow machine unless it is an older used one.  SF has had pretty good support (I have their 19" bandsaw as well).  I haven't had to use their service with the jointer because it is almost flawless.

   It does suffer from belt slap against the shroud on start-up and shut-down (when it hits a harmonic and the belt flutters as it slows).  Big deal.  I tried to put on a link belt, but it sits proud of the pulley/sheeve so it rubbed the shroud.  Maybe I'll tweak the shroud to fit over the link belt someday, but it isn't worth complaining about.  The jointer performs great, and the tables were dead flat and perfectly aligned.  All I had to do was very slightly tweak the outfeed height (by about 1/64).

   I don't see how PM can justify $400 more for a dovetail design and less HP that is made overseas.  They are trying to trade on their name and Made in USA reputation.  That doesn't work for me.  On a final note; the Steel City doesn't compare.  More $$, less HP, no mag switch (but better warranty @ 5 yr).  I think the SF is the best bargain in 8" jointers right now, and if you can find it for $750, that is an even better price than I paid.

   Jake