Does anyone have any experience with any of the Shop Fox brand machines? I’m not at all familiar with their reputation or tolerances. Just wondering how they perform/ed in the shop.
Biff
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Replies
To my expierienced eye, the stuff looks like gussied up, higher end Grizzly. But then, I wear glasses.
The Shop Fox bandsaw shows up now in most of the reviews, and the tablesaw in some. Their bench-top mortiser gets excellent reviews, both in the magazines and from people who have and use them.
Personally, I don't believe that they are "clones" of the Grizzly machines. You may have to check on a couple of forums to find several people who have owned machines other than the mortiser.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
What do you think could be different other than the paint and hand wheels? I mean, they are built at the same factory, for Grizzly. Grizzly owns Shop Fox, as far as I know.
Dave
Sorry to butt in. I can tell you from experience that the SF mortiser and Grizzly are as different as night and day. I own the SF and have used the Grizzly. Totally different.
I can't tell a bunch of difference in the TS just from looks. The DP's look similar, but I haven't seen too many Griz drill presses down south. It's hard to compare unless side by side. I do have access to SF about 40 miles from my home, but have to rely on freinds Griz's to make any comparison.
sarge..jt
Take a look at the following thread, paying close attention to #2 and #3 posts:http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-knots&msg=11940.1
I don't know if Grizzly owns Shop Fox or not, but even if they do, and even if the tools are made in the same factory, that does not they are clones, with simple cosmetic differences. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Well ya know, I can't really sat verbatem that Grizz owns SF, but they use the name on their fences, and I don't think there can be two ShopFoxes. But we can dream ;^}
I know about the substituions in bearings, but thinner castings would be a stretch. Maybe it has a better motor and pulleys, but I believe the basic saw is the same. Of course, this is all conjecture on my part, as I have never been next to a SF saw.
I don't know squat about the morticers. I own the basic Delta/Jet/Grizzly/Nameyourbrand bench model, and will replace it with a real machine when it pops up.
Yes, Grizzly does use Shop Fox fences on some of their saws. If memory serves me right, only the bottom one or two contractor's saws are equipped with Grizzly fences. The fences you see on the better Grizzly saws are not Grizzly fences with SF name, they are SF fences (the "Classic" and whatever they call the newer one). forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Jamie
According to the owner of my local SF distributor, the owner of Griz and SF is the same. That doesn't automatically make them the same, as you know. Jet-Powermatic PC-Black & Decker etc. etc.
sarge..jt
Ahhhhh, someone who's spoken to someone who knows! I like that. Sounds like an owner who wanted to try something different, and is using the Shop Fox line to do that, or...maybe he bought the line when it was young. Sure would like to know!! Shop Fox seems traditional in the retail sense, different target customers for some of their tools, some innovation (the design innovations found in the SF mortiser), two year warrantees on some (all?) machines.
Yep, the same company owns KFC and Pepsi, I drink Pepsi every day, haven't touched KFC in 25 years since I got food poisoning at one! Not an exact parallel, for sure, but makes about as much sense as some of the generalizations I've seen here at Knots lately.
Even with Grizzly, I don't think all of the tools are made at the same factory. Some meet tougher standards than others, from what I've seen in their catalog.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Dear First Lady of the Forest: Jamie i drink pepsi too <G>,as ShopFox-Grizzly goes seems all the power tool companys are jumpin on the Band wagon so to speak with multiple named equipment ie Delta Industrial & there shopmaster line & the New Secret XL5 line coming out soon..Black & Decker did it too B&D & Dewalt..Porter Cable has been a hold out soo far and Milwaukee guess they know they have the HD market cornered...
Just takin a break from the shop playin with the new saw,boy that 50" Bissey fence is sweet..hehe
ToolDoc
SARGE: You sly Old Dawg ,have a in with the Shop Fox Dealer do ya..LOL..
Noticed jamies answer guess what the answer is that certain machines are better than others cause thats the way they want em made..I chated with a Gentleman on another Forum once who swore that theres only a handfull of factoies in Taiwan & China making all the imported WW machines & just label em for the diffrent companys here in the USA.. makes sense to me . if you look at the Grizzs, Harbor Freight,Bridges there all LQQKING the same..
ToolDoc
Doc
Probaly is true about only a few factories. When I was comparing jointers, the Sunhill and Jet are almost identical. The main difference is the Jet has hand-wheels on the front and the Sunhill on the sides. The main body down to the dust chute was the same.
I think the same factories put them down the line. I'm guessing that they do it to the tolerances of a particular manufacturer. Might be variances in what the manufacturer calls for on subtle items, but the main frames seem identical.
It would still pay to check the tolerances and machining as one manufacturer might not call for as tight of tolerances as another. Just makes good sense. Throw in the ad campaigns of the more well known brands and you get prices that vary widely. Just my opinion of course.
A good example is Ryobi. I have the old 10" BT DP from Taiwan. When Ryobi switched to China a while back, the size of the motor amps was dropped and the machining isn't near as crisp. Quite a drop in quality, IMO.
Don't get carried away with that Uni and be sure to logging-chain it down if you leave the house. You've heard of that notorious "Walnut Gang". Wouldn't put anything past those desperadoes. ha..ha..
sarge..jt
SARGE: I think Ryobi started get cheap when they got hooked up with Sears/craftsman,things went down hill soon after,i have a hunch thats why Emerson/Ridgid & Sears parted ways Sears wanted Ridgid to make junk for em to put there Craftsman name on...as far as the "Walnut Gang" watch out I have Bear Traps located in & around the shop plus still have those tourist eatin trained Bears here soowatch out...hehe
ToolDoc
Not quite. Sears doesn't want their products being made in the same plants or on the same assembly lines that make Ridgid or any other competing brand. Emerson was given a choice, and they told Sears to take a hike.
Now Sears is disappointed with the products being produced by Ryobi and is in negotiations with Emerson as well as other manufacturers to produce tools for them.
Jeff
Jeff : Ha Ha Sears should worry more about selling junk than where there power tools are made or if there is another line of tools being made there also.. I hope Emerson/Ridgid thinks twice before getting back in bed with Sears/Craftsman..Hopefully they will after this nonsense with Home Depot..
ToolDoc
My understanding on the new crsftsman tools is that many manufacturers are now making them. This includes Bosch, Delta and PC to name a few. I've asked the Delta guys on another forum about this, but they don't touch it with an answer. I was also told that this is why Craftsman no longer has a manufacturer id in their model numbers. Some just don't want to be associated with craftsman until they clean up their act.
Then again this may be like craftsman's lawnmowers. They are made in a factory in North Carolina. The manufacturer does not market lawnmowers, but they make Craftsman, Bolens, MTD, Yard Machine, and many more. The reason I write this is because I was also told all the laser miter saws come from the same place regardless of the brand name on the saw.
FWIW, this is obviously all heresay. No links or proof to verify anything.
Don
Don: Hey guy how ya doing, yes I know you press Rock2car & Delta 007 for answers over at Woodnet "Chuckle" But they aint biting..lol.. I think sears best bet is to continue selling other brand name power tools that we trust & maybe try & improve the Craftsman name a little at a time,because there going to have one heck of a time getting people to put there trust back in the Craftsman name again..it really is a shame because we both know that many many years ago Craftsman was King when it came to power Tools.. But there not the only Power Tool Company to loose Respect in there tools same thing happened to Delta durning the Rockwell years & I see it again with Delta going to China for there ShopMaster line & some of there Industrial line, I realize that to stay profitable many companys have to send mfg overseas but my queston is wouldnt most Loyal Tool owners sooner pay the diffrence to be able to save jobs here in the USA?? Your right about the lawn mowers also I have known for years that there made in one factory & they just put on the diffrent brand names for who ever.. includes True Value Hardware,Ace,Service Star, K-Mart..etc...
ToolDoc
FG,
According to Inc Magazine, both Grizzly and Woodstock International (distributors of Shop Fox machinery) are "run" by Shiraz Balolia. Difficult to find information since the entire Grizzly "family" is a privately owned corporation.
The (very short) article, below, makes reference to Balolia as the founder of Grizzly Knife and Tackle, which I seem to remember reading elsewhere grew to be today's Grizzly. Impressive.
http://www.inc.com/magazine/19961015/2075.html
Forgot to copy the link, but it's enteresting to go to the Woodstock International website and see all the different brands they distribute to independent dealers. Not all, but many, are also available through Grizzly.
Jeff
Thank you, Jeff, for finding some business-oriented info on Grizzly, et al. I couldn't figure out how to do that, even with Google's help!! Your post also helps explain why it's so hard to get the company info.
From the info provided in that short article, it would seem reasonable that Grizzly, which is a pretty big line of tools and accessories, has a different focus and purpose from Shop Fox. I would not be surprised if the design teams are populated by different people, and have somewhat different missions, as I alluded to in an earlier post.
Personally, I would very much like to see FWW or one of the other magazines base an article on the types of questions that have arisen in this thread and several other similar ones, answering many of the questions we have about factories, companies, "clones" and disguising paint jobs!!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Several articles have been written about similar machines . Search the "Archives". Enter the keyword "taiwan".
Meant to say search FWW articles archives.
Edited 5/4/2003 1:59:25 PM ET by JackWoody
Seems to me I read an article in Wood Magazine a few years ago on that very subject. The writer went to Taiwan and got the lowdown. Pretty sure it was Wood. I'll get back to ya. Brian
Like I said it was an older article. Don't know how relevant it would be now but I'll check to see if I can find it.
Edited 5/5/2003 1:06:25 AM ET by BrianMcG
I read that article, Brian, and it was very good, but as you say it's "old." I vote for a new article!! One that covers:
quality control in different factories, and for different companies in same factory
how similar are these same-looking machines we keep talking about?
ISO requirements
what influences the overall quality of machines
what parts come from outside the factories and influence qualityforestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Absolutely right. We need an update! Yo! Taunton! Your customer base speaketh!
Edited 5/6/2003 2:17:58 AM ET by BrianMcG
Excellent rundown FG. We've all heard so much about this with no real way to verify anything. I've heard of companies that bought out, or bought into some of these companies to have control over what goes on, to what the Delta guys posted on the other forum. They said they have QC people from the states manning the stations there, but what does that mean? Are they hand selecting what comes off the line what will become a Delta product, or do they run all the Delta lot at one time and control that, or are they just at assembly? When it comes to this, the norm is being ambiguous or maybe even equivocal.
Don
Brian,
Issue #128. Only five years ago. Rather than re-hashing the same ol', How about an article of any differences?
Has quality control improved or not?
Which machines are built at what factory?
Which machines are built with closer tolerances and better materials?
After 20 years of reading this great magazine, another article on the same ol' thing is rather redundant.
With Taunton having this site with easy acess to all its publications, There is a lot of obtainable info for the beginner or new reader.
Has quality control improved or not?
Which machines are built at what factory?
Which machines are built with closer tolerances and better materials?
Seems to me your in agreement that an update is needed. That's all that was suggested.
I didn't think the points I outlined above (to which Brian was responding) would result in "the same ol' thing."
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 5/7/2003 12:42:25 AM ET by forestgirl
Your previously outlined points were covered in issue #128, pages 86-89 including side bar on page 87, and touched upon with other articles in previous issues.
Some one went to great expense to travel to Taiwan and gather the info that Anatole Burkin wrote in the article.
To go to that expense, to find out that things have not changed in any great amount on any of the points listed would be the same old thing.
As one who has purchased and assembled and sold and used a good variety of the woodworking machines available to the american public for the last three years gives me hands on knowledge of the same ol thing. I wouldn't mind seeing a national publication such as Taunton verify or disclaim any of my personnely experienced findings.
Had you been in woodworking and the machines related to it for as long as I have, or read the articles available from FWW, perhaps you would see "the same ol' thing", and want for expanded knowledge.
Three of my five "areas of inquiry" were not covered at the detail level I'd like to see:
how similar are these same-looking machines we keep talking about?
what influences the overall quality of machines?
what parts come from outside the factories and influence quality?
Pick a machine, say a cabinet saw, and provide details about specific different parts, how they influence the final product, and which ones are different between 4 or 5 brands of the saw that appear to be "clones."
One question was not covered at all, near as I can tell with a quick scan of the article:
ISO requirements
They could do a whole article on ISO requirements and woodworking tools made overseas. It would be very valuable, IMO, to learn about the basics of ISO requirements, how companies/factories qualify, what it means to the end consumer, how all of that fits into the whole "clone" debate.
And...the "clone debate" is really what I'm focused on here. Every time the issue comes up, there are any number of comments about how this machine looks just like that machine, so they must be the same; or, they're all made in Taiwan so they must be junk. In all of these debates, there is rarely any specific pertinent information provided.
I'm more than glad to get information from someone such as yourself who has a great deal of hands-on experience with different machines, and most people who know me through Knots probably don't doubt I read a fair amount and seldom reject the acquisition of "expanded knowledge."
There have been some specific apparent changes over the past few years that lead me to believe there may have been some not-insignificant changes since that article was written 5 years ago. One is the seeming change in Delta's quality control since it apparently bottomed out a couple of years ago or so. The other is the notation in the new Grizzly catalog that certain machines (don't have the catalog, don't remember which) are produced in an ISO9001 factory. Also, in general, it seems that the imported machines are of better overall quality than they were 5+ years ago.
[Edited to correct ISO rating of Grizzly factory]
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 5/8/2003 12:44:40 PM ET by forestgirl
Also, there are many more left tilt options now. It would be nice to compare guts on all popular cabinet saws and note differences and similarties.
Sorry, but great expense is would not be the way to put it. Travel right now is about as inexpensive as it's ever going to get. Also, five years seems like a long time for someonesomething that evaluates the same tablesaws every couple of years if not yearly.
BTW, I don't have any issues five years old and I'm sure I'm not alone. I have issues that are 20 years old though. Does that help?
Don
Don,
If it weren't for this SARS business, I'd be willing to travel to Taiwan for an extended period (6 months or so) to research these matters in depth. A nice hotel, meals, airfare and $200/day is all I'd require. Think Tauton would be wise to take me up on this.
Jeff
Jeff,
I think they would! ;^)
Actually, how much of this really couldn't be done over the phone with maybe a quick trip to verify what someone has been told? A good part of this could probably come from 10q's and yearly statements. For example, FG asked about ISO standards. Chances are good that if a company was putting money into meeting these standards, this issue would be addressed in the statements along with any other positive statements or selling points for the company.
Don
Yes, Shiraz Balolia is the owner of Grizzly and ShopFox as well as one other accessory importer whose name escapes me.
Jeff
Ok, here's one for you- have you seen the ads for the Saw Stop? They were selling their own TS for a while, I think it was black, but did you notice that it was actually a P66 in fresh paint? Just picture it "gold" with a black racing stripe.
I'm still not convinced SF isn't a gussied up Grizz, I'd have to look real close at one first. Their 20"(?) planer looks like the Powermatic/Jet/Reliant/Nameyourbrand knock off.
It's kind of funny to look at this equipment and rcognize who the import mfg's were ripping off. Grizz copied there jointers from PM, their saws and 15" planer from Delta. Jet copied there 15" planer from PM. If you have any owner manuals from PM or Delta from the 50'&60's you can see almost all the models of modern imports there. Except maybe the mortisers.
I have had a bit of experience with their support which was excellent. I had purchased a mobile base but one of the threaded holes on a stile was stripped - of course it was one I required for the size base I needed. I contacted tech support and a replacement stile arrived in the mail within two days along with another bag of nuts/bolts. The quality of the base is quite good and with their warranty support I would have no hesitation buying SF again.
I have purchased the Shop Fox mortiser, drill press and 2hp dust collector. I haven't owned any other brands of these machines, but these are great. I'm not too wild about the fence setup on the mortiser, but it cuts where you want it to after you get it set correctly.
The dust collector is outstanding. It blew out the run capacitor a while back and the people at Shop Fox returned my call every day for three consecutive days while I was on a business trip. The store manager at the Re-Tool store in Athens, GA (where I bought it) had Shop Fox direct ship me one in about three days. It works better now than it did before.
I've had no problems with the drill press, other than letting the belt get too loose once.
I can't wait until they start selling the 8" jointer.
JC
I bought my SF mortiser from Re-Tool in Athens. I live about 40 miles up the road toward Atlanta. Yep, the owner and store manager are great folks to deal with. They'll go out of their way to help.
Have a good day...
sarge..jt
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