Replies

1. 
   Telemike | Jan 07, 2004 08:39am | #1

   Is it safe?

   How do you define "safe"? What will you be doing around the heater? What finishes will you use? How particular will you be about keeping the heater clean? What happens if you hit it with a board and it falls over? How sensitive are your lungs?

   I have tried three different heaters in the garage: 1. A coleman glowing ball type heater, 2. a vertical "cap" type of high BTU propane heater, and 3. a "boxwood heater" wood stove with a very good $400 chimney system. Observations:

   The ball heater only was warm right in front of the ball. Machines etc never got warm.

   Both the ball heater and the "cap" type heater vented into the garage and irritated my lungs (asthma response). Additionally, the cap heater would cook sawdust that landed on the cap giving off very irritating smoke.

   The wood stove is great, I clean up around it constantly, I used a very expensive chimney system and put cement board on the wall behind the stove. It heats the drafty garage and digests excess limbs and scraps. It's still a code violation.

   To be legal and safest, use a co-axial vented explosion proof gas heater to heat the shop and install it with a permit.

1. 
   forestgirl | Jan 07, 2004 09:27am | #2

   "digests excess limbs...."  Hmph, the first image that came to mind wasn't pleasant.  Been reading too many table saw threads, LOL.forestgirl Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)  you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)

1. 
   Jeff | Jan 07, 2004 04:43pm | #3

   Or watching too many CSI programs.

   I had the same morbid thought.

   Jeff

2. 
   tommy2 | Jan 07, 2004 08:10pm | #8

   isn't anyone concerned with spontanious combustion, have dust collection and air filters but still have fine dust on equipment in the am.just worried about it during working hrs. my shop is getting a little cool now jan. in jersey is not pretty.

1. 
   forestgirl | Jan 07, 2004 10:14pm | #10

   Uhhhhh, I don't don't think you have to worry about that light sawdust spontaneously combusting.  Watch those oil-soak rags though!forestgirl Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)  you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)

1. 
   tommy2 | Jan 08, 2004 04:31pm | #14

   thanks for the replies just a little concerned about fire, i understand venting and all that good stuff wood burner would be nice maybe even propane htr. i'll check out whats avail in my area thank you again its just gettin a little to cool to enjoy working

2. 
   JohnWW | Jan 08, 2004 01:57am | #11

   Tommy,

   What you are talking about isn't spontaneous combustion but rather a dust explosion.  I believe it would be nearly impossible to put enough dust in the air of a shop to create an explosion, the concentration would be so thick that you couldn't see.  Dust explosions are possible in the ductwork of the dust collection system but they are usually ignited by static or sparks from metal scraps hitting the fan.

   Any kind of high temperature heater, even one that is vented, will create some fumes from dust and solvents burning or breaking down when they hit the hot metal of the heater.  Unvented heaters add even more noxious fumes to the shop's air.  In my experience, unvented heaters will make you feel bad after a few hours exposure and I wouldn't think they're good for your long term health.

   John W.

2. 
   10fingers | Jan 07, 2004 06:05pm | #4

   Thanks for the info.  I guess I will stay with my electric radiator heaterr.  My shop is only 12'X16' but is insulated and sheetrocked.

1. 
   forestgirl | Jan 07, 2004 07:20pm | #5

   Chuck, with the shop nicely insulated, you might consider getting something to just bring it up to a minimum comfort level and then use the electric to maintain.  I've used a propane tube-type (forced air) on a BBQ-sized tank for a "jump-start" on the heat thing.  The run, ohhhh, $60-$100 and the tank's about $25.forestgirl Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)  you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)

1. 
   10fingers | Jan 07, 2004 07:49pm | #6

   Thanks for the advice.  After going through fire fighting school in the Navy, I have a fear of becoming a marshmellow.

1. 
   forestgirl | Jan 07, 2004 08:06pm | #7

   What dangers are involved with short-term (say, 1/2-hour) use of those heaters when operated properly?  I ask in all sincerity, as I don't want to be a marshmallow either, but I find the propane heaters very handy for getting a head-start on heating the shop. (My torpedo is broken, am now using one of those "glowing" kind that attach to the top of the tank.  Doesn't really heat up the shop, but takes the chill off of me until the woodstove does its job).

   forestgirl Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)  you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)

   Edited 1/7/2004 12:07:46 PM ET by forestgirl

2. 
   chillywilly | Jan 09, 2004 01:12am | #20

   My shop is approx the same size as yours.  Installed the Empire DV55 last April and used it for the first time over the 2 week Holiday period.  Kept the thermostat on 50 overnight and 65 all day and was in short sleeves the whole time.

   In case you're not familiar, this unit vents to the outside and can be installed in any 16" wall bay.  I love it because it's up against the wall, takes no floor space, is quiet, efficient, and...most of all, it works great.

1. 
   10fingers | Jan 09, 2004 03:45am | #21

   Thanks everybody for the recommendations.   I won't use the Kolman heater.   I hate kerosene heaters due to the fumes.   I like the idea of a vented heater like Ron uses.   I will have to wait as I am a starving student again.

1. 
   Marsman | Jan 09, 2004 10:49pm | #22

   A year or two ago I ran into a guy at a tool show who told me how he ended up putting heat into his garage / shop: a radiant hot water system! Maybe some of you have heard or seen of similar methods like this, but it was sure new to me.

   He was from a cold place -- Colorado, I think -- and I remember thinking he must have had to blast out the concrete floor. But as he described it the process was rather simpler. I'll describe it as best I recall, but forgive me in advance for any technical errors or missing info.

   He told me that he installed the gas furnace and circulating pump outside the garage (e.g., in a shed or utility closet), then ran the plumbing (PEX, isn't it?) through the wall. Following a careful plan, he then took 3/4" plywood sheets and attached the loops of tubing to the undersides, along with the required insulation and reflector material; the ends of the tubing was left with just enough play for making the connections. He also added 2x4 supports (notched for the plumbing). Then he set the first sheet down next to the incoming line; connected the line; pushed it home and tied the sheets together; then continued until he'd filled the entire garage (about 12 or 14 sheets, I think he told me).

   I have no idea how he pressure-tested his connections, but I'd sure want to at the very moment of making each one ... before it was covered over and out of reach.

   The last sheet, of course, tied to the outgoing line. And at the front he added a little ramp so he could still pull the car in when desired. He lost some headroom, but on the upside got a softer floor to stand on.

   What surprised me was his claim about cost. I don't remember the exact figure, but it was something like $2,000 or $2,500 ... far more than most of the systems described above, but a LOT less than I would have expected. (You save by doing it yourself, I think, and of course it was a very small system compared to those designed to heat entire homes). He liked it because the operating cost was extremely low -- it might even pay for itself after enough years -- and the shop was very comfortable. I have no idea how durable the system would be.

   Spendy but interesting. Anyone who's interested can probably find more by doing a Google search on "radiant floor heating" or similar terms. I know a lot of companies now produce the equipment for it.

2. 
   adrienne4468 | Jan 09, 2004 11:05pm | #23

   I was in a hurry when I built my garage a couple years ago with my house. Had a construction loan and would have had to extend it to take my time. Anyway, if I had thought of it I would have had that system poured right into the concrete when I had that done. I could have added any kind of furnace at a later date whether it be wood, gas or propane.

   Hindsight is 20/20 and if I ever do it again that is the kind of heat I will put in the shop and house.

   Tony

   We already have enough youth, how about a fountain of smarts.

3. 
   jmc | Jan 10, 2004 01:08am | #24

   I put the radiant heat in my shop when I built it.  It is much easier to put in when you pour the concrete. (They check the integrity of the system by putting compressed air in the tubing and letting is sit for a few days, if the air doesn't leak, the water won't leak.)  The boiler is just an oversized water heater, I combined with my house heating ( water heat exchanger upstairs, radiant downstairs, and household hot water. If you plan ahead it is a very good system, very efficient and very even,comfortable heat. However, it is a slow response system so you need to turn on several hours before you need to use the shop. That being said, I don't think I would try to retrofit into an existing shop, there are many "little" secrets that would be painful to learn on your only installation.  Hope this helps.

   John

2. 
   Manchild | Jan 07, 2004 08:16pm | #9

   I'm no expert, but.... If it doesn't vent outside the byproduct of burning any fuels are toxic. Electric heat doesn't do this and doesn't need to vent.

3. 
   bill_1010 | Jan 08, 2004 05:57am | #12

   Any time you use fossil fuels to heat that doesnt have a sealed/direct vented burner unity you should just have a carbon monoxide alarm in your room.  Its a safe 15bucks of life insurance. 

   Youll get many opinions on this subject, but the simple fact is the CO alarm you can buy will be the judge of safe.

4. 
   JMartinsky | Jan 08, 2004 03:47pm | #13

   Hey All,

   I have a fairly large shop and have tried a couple of methods, here they are with results:

   1. Kerosene/Deisel "torpedo"type:

   A. Heats shop well.

   B. Loud enough to drown out the planer and dust collector.

   C. Burns up enough oxygen to increase the "stupid" factor.

   D. Love those CO headches!

   E. Annoying enough to drive out the mice.

   2. Propane "drywallers type"...See above, plus:

   A. Barely heats shop.

   B. Not quite enough to drive out the mice.

   3. Wood Stove:

   A. Heats shop well.

   B. Gets rid of scraps including the odd limb.

   1. Larger body parts may require modification to fit into stove......

   C. QUIET.

   D. The mice are back.

   E. The kids love it.

   F. I love it.

   a. Except the mice!

   The reality is that they are all fire hazzards, but the propane/deisel units are a CO concern. (Careful FG!)

   Good Luck!

   John

   
   

   ---

   Edited 1/8/2004 1:49:52 PM ET by JMartinsky

1. 
   forestgirl | Jan 08, 2004 07:06pm | #15

   One thing I definitely don't have to worry about is CO poisoning, LOL.  There's enough air coming in through the unsealed spaces at the top of the north wall and the crack under/around the front door, I'd have to have quite a few propane heaters to OD.  Plenty of ventilation this year.

   I love your list!forestgirl Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)  you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)

1. 
   Lencu | Jan 08, 2004 10:02pm | #16

   Has anyone out there had experience with radiant electric heat, especially in a small shop? Who makes good products, or bad for that matter;  any other pertinent information would be appreciated. Thanks..L

1. 
   EdHarrow | Jan 08, 2004 10:48pm | #17

   I, too, have been follwing this thread with great interest.   I'm going to be spending a lot of time in a <16 x < 20 unheated (but adjacent to heated areas) basement this winter.  I don't expect to be making much dust, mostly chips, so I'm still in the propane convection considering mode (tho just had an offer for a kero torpedo job for  the duration of the project).

   I do now have a Marvin (I think) ceiling hung radiant unit.  This was in Lee Valley, and is now in Northern Tools.  If you go this route, I think the light is a near total waste.  Lee says it's good for 14x14 feet, but I can't yet attest to that as I've only been in it's immeadiate vicinity since I hung it up.  The ambient air temp in my shop was about 10C (50F) and it did a nice job.

1. 
   tv190s | Jan 08, 2004 11:07pm | #18

   I haven't heard anyone mention an electric (ceiling hung) style heater yet. You know, those Dayton/Modine style heaters. Up til last week, I was sold on getting a wood stove for my stop but have just finally given into getting a 4000W electric unit. I see the benefits being that it will use little space, quiet, cheaper(?), and variable. For my shop (14X24) I need one about 13,000BTU which would run me $160-200 depending on where I buy it. Yes it will add $$$$ to the electric bill, but in the end, for me the benefits out weigh the wood stove. With the wood stove, the intial purchase would be less, but to install it in the shop would add more to the cost over the electric unit, and eat up precious floor space.

   I like wood stoves and I have them in my house too, but for the shop its coming down to other reasons that don't make sense.

   As most of you have said, there are lots of choices that are good. Precautions necessary on all of them. Just depends on your situation.

   Matt

2. 
   Lencu | Jan 09, 2004 12:28am | #19

   Thanks for the news, Ed. Northern has the same unit without the light for less than $50. I don't know, 14 x14 for  fifty bucks, sounds too good to be true, but cheap enough to try it. I'll let you know how I made out..L