I’m starting to research for an article on heating wood shops. I’d love to hear your experiences — What’s worked, what hasn’t? What do those of you on the tundra do? And do those of you closer to the equator even bother with supplemental heat? What about air conditioning? Humidity control? Insulation? Safety? Fuels?
Thanks for any information you can provide.
Andy
Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. –Robert M. Pirsig
Replies
I asked this question just a couple of days ago on this forum. You might check out that thread.
I will say that I use a small "Mr. Heater" propane unit in my un-insulated 1-car garage (near Boston) and it does next to nothing to heat the shop, or myself. Short of radiant floor heating, I'd love to know what the safest, economical means of heating a small shop would be. Also, what type of insulation works best without having to worry about moisture problems.
- Toolfreak
I built a 600 square foot shop in a very cold northern climate and used radiant floor heat in the concrete slab-on-grade. It worked like a dream. The advantages are,
The disadvantage is slow response time. So if I was out of the shop for a few days and lowered the heat to 60°, then wanted to work in the shop for a couple of hours, I was in and out before the temperature fully came up to, say 70°. Also, because I had simplified controls installed, the system overshot. The installer said that would not happen if I spent more money for the type of controls he'd typically install in a home.
20050.5
I live in the foot hills of the blue ridge mountains of VA. I had my two car garage (which is built into the first floor of my house), which is above grade. My walls are insulated and I installed insulated garage doors. I have looked at many options from natural gas heat to radiant, to wood. I have found that using two cheap oil filled radiator heaters has maintained at least 60-65 degrees in weather that ranges for the most part in the 30's and 40's with a few spells of teens. I have decided to live with this arrangement for a while and use the money I was going to put into a heater into more tools. For cooling, I went to sam's club and bought an $80.00 window unit that runs on a thermostat. It keeps the garage more than comfortable in the summer. I think good insulation is critical.
I built a detached 1500 sq. ft. shop a couple of years ago. It is pole frame construction with 6x6 poles. I insulated the walls with 5 1/2" Roxul(tm) insulation. Roxul is waterproof, it doesn't get wet or lose loft when damp and the rodents don't like it. It also has a slightly higher R value than fibreglass batts (R21.5 vs R20). I insulated the attic with cellulose blown in to R40. I installed a 30 foot overhead radiant tube natural gas heater. I live in southwestern Ontario about an hour and a half drive east of Detroit and we regularly get nights around 0 F. I keep the shop at around 50 F when I'm not using it and warm it up when I'm working. (I'm a hobbyist). So far this winter I'm using about 3 cubic meters per day of gas to keep the shop warm. Gas is costing me about 40 cents per cubic meter delivered.
The insulation is good enough that I didn't need any air conditioning last summer. It was a little cooler than normal, with few days over 90, but, if I kept the windows closed the shop didn't get much above 75. Nice and comfortable.
Doug
http://www.garageheater.com Fantastic. Cost me about $900 Canadian and runs me about $180 year to heat my 550 ft shop 24/7. Peter
From 21841.13:
"My solution was to buy a Cadet brand heater called The Hot One from Home Depot. It works REALLY well; not the cheapest solution ($200), and has a blower so it doesn't offer the silence I'd like. But it has two heat ranges, and heats very well. I'd do it again, I think. I can set the temp really low--like 45 deg--and heat the shop up to 60 deg in about 5 minutes. I'm not finding it on HD's website anymore, but that might mean that you can get one at your local store on clearance or closeout b/c I only bought mine a couple of months ago."
Charlie
Thanks for your replies. I realized that I started out telling you what I want in the article. What I really should have done was asked what you wanted to know.
So, what do you folks want to know about heating a shop?
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
I live in PA and use 1-2 bays of my garage. In the winter months, I use a free standing kerosene heater. It's rather slow to heat up the garage so I will turn it on an hour in advance of working in there. My shop ranges in temperature from 35 to 70 degrees with 50-70 as the norm. My equipment and wood stored doen't seem to be the worse for wear as the humidity is fairly constant and low. I will spend roughly $5 - $10 a week on fuel, working 15-20 hrs a week.When I first fire up the heater, there is an odor from the initial incomplete combustion but that doesn't linger for more than 5 minutes. My garage has a window and side door so there are plenty of ways to ventilate it. Steve
I would like to know more about radiant floor heating. Soon I would like to build a 24x30 shop and I like the advantages of randiant floor heating but I have no idea of the cost of the materials and can I install it myself. What would be the recomended size hot water tank to heat that amount of space. How thick does the slab need to be for the best results.
Is there a web site that will let me order the material and do it myself.
Thanks
Sean
If you have some time, you'll get alot of really good advice from this forum:
http://www.radiantpanelassociation.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=1
Rather than posting a general question right off, try just browsing through the threads, that go about 5 pages deep, and also the search feature goes way back.
It's not a real active forum, so you'll be better off going through the threads that interest you than waiting for folks to reply to your post. Then when you have a better idea of your design, post more specific questions.
Great site
Thank You!
You can go to http://www.radiantcompany.com and give them your specs and they can design a system for you that you can install yourself . I installed a two zone system with just basic plumbing experience.
john s
It may be a bit off-subject, but I would like to see more information about preventative safety measures related to various heating methods, particularly for those of us who have chosen to heat our shops with solid fuel stoves. Bruce Ryden's article in the recent T&S issue mentioned a sprinkler system briefly, which to me sounded like a great idea, but he gave no detail about how to design a system; i.e. how to calculate how many sprinklers to use, required water pressure, gpm, etc.
Heat saving tips would be great, too.
Thanks,
Tony
One heating option I posted a few weeks ago is a modine or similar. It is a 12x24x24 box that runs off a boiler for the heat. You set it up as a zone off your house boiler (if you have forced hot air, your out of luck.) and its just like a radiator or baseboard heat. The hot water runs through a coil (like AC units) and goes back to the boiler through the return pipe, and a fan kicks on and blows the air across the hot coil. The units are about $150 to $250 depending on the sq footage.
One of the craziest things I've heard on this board is to use electric baseboard. That uses a heating element like a toaster oven, thats the last thing you want in an area with saw dust. I've seen furniture that has burn marks on it because it got too close to the baseboard, a lot of house fires start that way.
I would opt for radiant if I were building new but in a retro fit, a modine or small gas furnance (high efficiency so you vent it with pvc) would be the best. You could definitely do it for less than $1000 through a plumber or ac/heat guy. That would be in Boston, so it would be less in the non scalping parts of the country.
What's energy efficient? What is ecologically responsible? Does radiant heat really have a drying effect on exposed surfaces, therefore causing warping? What systems are safer? Is there a real risk of expolsion with open flame types like propane or wood? Is baseboard electric--nice and silent--as energy efficient as forced air electric? Does dust present a problem for baseboard electric? What about in-floor heating? Is is economical? Can forced air be routed from the house, (assuming that the shop is in an attached garage)? How important is controlled humidity?Thanks,CharlieI tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut
What are cost effective ways of dealing with a concrete floor once you have heated the space? That huge heat sink keeps it colder than it should be.
Andy -
Most of the points have been covered by others. In my case I am planning on building my retirement shop this summer and have been researching radiant heating - johnnyd put the link in to a site I have been studying. As much as anything I would like to see the article give lots of references. For example, some of us have the background to do the heat loss analysis and design - we just need to know where to find the data. I'm a mechanical engineer who has spent a career NOT using the part of my background that would help in this case. But once I find the references I can do the design and build. Information on the humidity issue would help also.
As to the question on what it takes for the sprinkler system, a good place to start is the NFPA (I think it stands for National Fire Protection Association?) code. The trouble is you have to buy it or find someone who can give you access. Turns out through my company I can access it - found out by talking to the fire marshal at the plant I work at. Covers spacing, etc on residential sprinkler systems in section 13 if I remember correctly.
I guess what I am trying to say is give us a broad article that hits on all the main points and lots of references. Your readership is so diverse that what works for me in upstate NY where I might do radiant heat with a wood fired boiler is useless to somebody in central TX (used to live there). My 2 cents worth.
Dale
...As to the question on what it takes for the sprinkler system, a good place to start is the NFPA (I think it stands for National Fire Protection Association?) code. The trouble is you have to buy it or find someone who can give you access. Turns out through my company I can access it - found out by talking to the fire marshal at the plant I work at...
++++++++++++++Andy, talk to your building maintenance folks at Taunton -- they may well have a copy of it. If you folks are leasing space, talk to the landlord, commercial buildings usually have it around.Failing those, check the public library's reference section, or talk to the municipal building inspection folks.Leon Jester
Andy,
The tools in my 2.5 car garage share space with the family car. I had been keeping up with the rust on tools until the day the car came in with 18 inches of snow on top. It's been a real battle since then.
I would like to insulate and dedicate space to a "projects studio" where my tools could live in peace with bicycles, metal working tools and other "projects of the moment." Woodworking is a hobby for me and I have grown tired of the basement. It's warm down there and dry but I need sunlight and a view. So here's are my questions regarding heating this new shop:
How much insulation is the right amount of insulation? More is always better but there has to be a break even point.
These radiant floor heating systems seem popular, are there really woodworkers using them and how effective are they?
Do insurance companies really disallow policy coverage for wood heated shops, what about pellet stoves that are externally vented?
Cost is always a consideration, both installation and operating costs. If you find a few "ideal" systems could you find out about the costs. How do the different fuels compare. Here in the northeast the cost per BTU is usually just a little lower with heating oil than natural gas, propane or electricity. However oil price spiked this year and natural gas may be cheaper.
Regarding radiant systems, what about those wall mounted radiant panels? They are becoming more popular in North America. I priced out a radiant panel for a remodel project and asked a friend from the UK to compare the price for me. The panel that cost $500 here was $100 (U.S.) over there. Now there's a stiff markup. With the popularity of these radiant panels growing the price is sure to come down. The panels could be used to augment an in-floor system and provide faster warm-up without significantly increasing costs. http://www.radson.be/con~1433.htm
Are there some straightforward heat loss calculators on the web?
What about adding onto existing home heating/cooling systems. Is this a realistic option.
I hope you end up writing the article. You really caught my interest with the topic.
Jeff in Massachusetts
Edited 2/22/2005 10:17 am ET by JEFF_IN_MASS
I have a 24x48 pole barn shop. Currently uninsulated, in the Pacfic NW.
Had a 2-burner "Mr. Heater" as well, at first. 'pretty useless.
Next I got one of the those forced-air propane heaters that contractors use. Lots of heat, but i stopped using it. I'd get a bit dizzy, which I assumed was due to exhaust gases; this was even with the recommended square feet of open window. Also, it dumped alot of H2O into the air, and rust was a big problem.
I have two 5000 watt / 17K BTU ceiling mount electric heaters now.
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=6970&productId=595&R=595
No fumes; I only heat it when I'm out there and electricity is still relatively cheap in this part of the country. This summer the shop gets insulated. Once that is done, that should be enough heating. This winter's been pretty mild, so it's been OK even uninsulated.
I live in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan which gets very cold in the winter with lots of snow. My shop is 28' x 40' with 9 foot ceilings on the first floor.
I use an 220V electric heater that is made to hang from the ceiling. It does a decent job of heating the entire space even at sub zero tempatures. The reasons I have choosen this type of heat is first of all, easy installation. I built the shop in the fall of the year and moved into it during the winter. I needed quick heat so I could work with some comfort while insulating and installing the wall board, ceiling etc.
Initally I thought that I would need a more substatial heat source but this type of heat proved to be ataquit and very inexpensive. I use a ceiling mounted radiant heat lamp to warm up the assembly area when I have had the heat turned down for a day or two. Other wise I haven't needed any othe heat source.
The heating unit runs about 225.00 with a built in fan and tempature control.
http://www.superwoodworks.com/Projects/ShopShots.htm
Garry
WoodWorks by Garry
I'm in Southeast MI. I wanted a direct vent heater but couldn't afford one. I ran 100 feet of gas pipe to my garage and installed a small gas furnace in its own, separate room. Toasty warm after about 20 minutes in my 2.5 car garage. Wall insulated with fiber glass and covered with 1 x 12 barn boards. The rafters are insulated with foil/bubble bubble/ foil radiant barrier film. It works quite well. http://www.Radiantbarrier.com had the best prices. Note: furnace was purchased from Grainger. It's hard to get one otherwise.
My current shop is 30x40 on slab with dust collector runs in-slab. It was built using 2x8 stick framing with lots of insulation bats. Ceiling is vaulted with R40 insulation sandwich under the roof panels. I live in northern Arkansas so winters are not really bad. I heat my log home with an external wood boiler so I took another run off the manafold, ran the plex under the shop slab up to a heat exchanger. Started with two, but disconnected the second as one is enough to keep the shop confortable. I keep it at 50 degrees when I'm not there and it will be up to 65-70 in a few minutes.
The heat exchanger is nothing more then copper coils with an electric fan behind them, all side wall mounted at about 10 feet. If it is real cold, I just turn on my air cleaner that moves the shop air around. Also I have industrial sized ceiling fans that keep the heat off the ceiling.
I'm very pleased. Equipment cost was about $300 and the fuel costs is crying about all those end cuts being gone!
PS: I have to move and give up my dream shop but will be building another this fall. I plan on using radiant floor heating.
I heat an expanded two car garage with a small wood stove. The space is uninsulated and drafty, but I'm smart enough to be in the central valley of CA, not the northlands. There have been many threads about wood heat if your do some research on your own forum.
Also, there's an auxilliary question: how do you cool your shop when the temp goes way up? Me? I use a swamp cooler. I put it in after some folks on this forum responded positively to my quiries about swamp coolers. Thanks Forestgirl. I kinda dig the forest too.
Hey Andy,
I use a "take off" of a Swedish heating system. My small shop is only 14x24. But it is a dedicated ww shop, (hobby). Here in the deep south heating and cooling can be a day to day issue. It can be 65 one day and 30 the next and stay that way for a day or two then back to 65.
At first I used an old 4kw portable electric heater. It had a fan and thermostat. I did an ok job, but it took quite a while to heat up the shop and with the fan it pulled dust through and I always worried about that. So I decided to go with the aforementioned system.
I 1st poured a 6x6 slab about 10 ft from the shop. Then built 6ft walls out of blocks, insulating as I came up with them. Then a installed a firebox out of a discarded wood heater. Along with 100 ft of 3/4 in copper tubing all around the leftover interior. I fixed in place with wire. Sealed tight around the opening in the wall for the firebox door. Then filled it with sand all the way to the top. Then built a flat roof with a 3in fall. I plumbed 3/4 copper from the "heater" underground w/insulation to the shop, to a shop built heat exchanger. Nothing more than an old A-coil from an old a/c unit with a blower. I used a 1/4 hp hot water pump to move the water. A thermostat controls the blower and pump.
This setup works soooo sweet. I only have to fire the "heater" every 2 or 3 days as the sand stays warm for quite a while. Water temp never goes over 150-175. I can keep the shop as warm as I want. It does take 3-4 hrs if the system is "cold" to get it up to speed, but that has not presented a problem at all. I just fire it up before I go to work or before I go to bed and it's ready when I get in the shop.
As a bonus I built a filter box for the return air with .1 micron filters and 2 pre-filters and it has served as my air cleaner, year around. The filters have worked so good that there is no noticeable dust build up in the shop anymore. Nothing more than 4 hepa vac filters.
Oh yeah, in the summer, which we have plenty 90-95 degrees and 90 rh I use a 10k btu window unit. It works out real well and only an extra $20-30 a month on the power bill. The heater uses about 40-60 kwh a month ($4.50)
The cost to build my heater was around $250. I used a lot of "gimme" materials and my own labor. Had more time than money.
Jimmy
Hey Andy,
For a commoner like myself with a small time shop (12'X20'), a Portable Radiator style Oil filled Heater $100 bucks (Canadian) Home Depot/Sears does the trick,no noise, no maintenance,nothing, sawdust isn't even a problem,out of the box and plug it in. I use mine year round from (-25 C) to (+25 C) and because my humble little shop is on a cement slab,in summer its perfect to control humidity and keep rust off the tools.You can get the best heating system money can buy,but without Good Insulation it ain't worth squat. Anyways hope this helps the little guys.
I have a 1000 sqr ft shop 6 x 6 pole construction located in Mid Michigan. Walls are insulated with 8 1/2" blown in cellulose. Ceiling about 12" Use the shop everyday for about a month a Christmas and every weekend during the winter. Leave temp at 45 when not in use, 64 when in use.
In spite to the advise of many I have a hanging "unit" {read exposed flame} heater. I have the ability to spray finish elsewhere so that is not a problem and my hanging air cleaner dust collector and shop vac attached to sanders is able to keep air born dust down to minimum.
The heater cost about $400.00 took less than a day to install and uses about $150.00 in propane for the season. Last fill was $1.29/gallon.
Yep, that's me, former FHB editor. I'm doing OK, thanks for asking. And you? Weren't you more of a Breaktimer in the past?
Andy
Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
I have a small 14 by 20 shop that I heat with an old in-the-wall bathroom heater. I'm not in the shop often, (because I am out on the job!) but the dog is there all day. I keep it at 46. When I am doing a quick workbench project for a short time a have a Marvin 7060 1500 watt two-stage quartz radiant heater mounted on the ceiling that I just love. You can feel it right away on your hands. I saw it in an old Fine Homebuilding issued and bought one and it is super! Was only about $75.00
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