I’m working on an article about shop heating. The first question that has to be asked when deciding about how to heat a shop is “How big is it?” So, how big are your shops? Are they seperate buildings, garages, basements? If a basement, do you heat it? How many of you have air conditioning in your shops?
Thanks,
Andy
Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. –Robert M. Pirsig
Replies
Mine is 13x26, in the basement. Living in Colorado heat can be important sometimes. There is actually only one vent from the central heating system but it seems to do just fine.
My shop is 28 x 40 w/9 foot cielings on the first floor.
I heat the shop all winter with a small cieling mounted electric fan assisted heater
and on the below zero days I use a cieling mounted heat lamp in the assembly area.
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WoodWorks by Garry
Andy:
I have a 400 sq ft shop in my basement. The wall and ceiling are insulated. I have one vent from the central forced air furnace. It heats the shop quite well. The coldest it has ever gotten is about 60 degrees when it is sub zero weather. I also use the same vent for A/C in the summer. Again it does great. However, it does get pretty humin here in Indy in the summer. I do use a portable dehumidifier to keep the humidity around 50% or less.
good luck--hope this helps.
Thank you,
The Great Marko
Talking about size, I’ve worked for a company here in South Africa, Gauteng, Pretoria called Executool (About 13x20). Sometimes in summer not even a air-conditioner can cool one down, because of the zinc roof and bad air vents we use to suffocate allot.
12 x 30, 11 foot ceiling. In the basement. Basement is walk-out so one wall (2x6" construction) is on the outside well insulated, blueboard/plaster. Eastern MA. Get's to 58-60 in the cold, cold winter. Can be tough to work at 60 degrees - cold fingers. Never had a problem with tools at that temp however.
Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Mine is a 18'X30' with 8' ceilings.. It's in my basement. The exterior walls are insulated. The only heat source is the heat loss from pipes and my furnace.( and it's a new 5 star furnace) I get a constant 65F to 68F year around. The shop is in Vermont.
I'm actually using about 500 sq. ft. in my basement and about 300 in my garage right now, but I'm in the process of building a dedicated shop. It's only in the paper stage but it will be about 1400 sq. ft., and I plan on heating it with radiant floor heating. I'm hoping this is the best decision for keeping dust down, I'm still trying to figure out how to keep it cool in the summer without stirring up to much dust.
As for my temporary shops, the basement is fairly warm in winter with forced air from house, but garage is hopeless when temp. gets below 40.
I am looking forward to your article on heating a shop. Maybe it will give me some other alternatives to heating my future shop.
Never Down And Out Just Reaching Up to Touch Bottom
Depending on how close you are to the burbs, you might like to consider putting water through the slab abd using a heat exchanger to both heat and cool the water.
If you have access to a bit of country (and the cost is OK) you can run a pipe underground below the thermocline and cycle it through the floor to maintain a pretty constant 16*C all year. The operating cost is a pump at about 8 watts.
I understand that the volume of water underground required for an average house is about 8 cubic meters, it can also be done in a dam if deep enough.
Live in Fl. Have a 24x36 shop with a second floor for storage. There is a 12x12 room upstairs that my wife uses, and it has an air cond.in the window. This room is well insulated and not hard to cool. The shop down stairs gets a little warm in the heat of the summer but that's why I live in Fl. It never goes below 60 in the winter even on the coldest days.
Hi Andy,
I work in an old building in Baltimore. The dimensions are approx.
80' x 45'. Can send a picture if you like. Right now the only heat is
a hanging gas heater with a fan. It's big so it makes a difference pretty quickly. I only leave it on 50 degrees when I'm not working in the shop. In the next 6 months I'm building an insulated wall in the shop with big old garage doors and transoms. That will allow me to shut off one area for gluing and finishing and keep that area a bit warmer but still be able to open it up in warm weather to the rest of the shop.
Tom
20' x 30', cathedral ceiling from 9' to 12' high. Heat is radiant floor in a concrete slab on grade. The shop is a wing attached to the back of my (former) house along the Canadian border of New York. Fully insulated with 2" xps under the slab, R21 walls and R38 ceiling.
The things I like about radiant heat are
Exactly what is "xps" that you used to insulate your concrete floor?
Ardmore
>> Exactly what is "xps" ...Extruded polystyrene, Dow blueboard or Corning(?) pinkboard. Probably other manufacturers as well. As opposed to EPS, expanded polystyrene, which is the white beadboard.
I tried replying to your email but it came back as undeliverable. Here's what I said.
XPS is extruded polystyrene. It is the type of styrofoam that is extruded (the blue or pink stuff) and not expanded (the white beaded stuff). To insulate a floor, it is laid out to cover the base (stones) under the entire floor and the concrete is poured right on top of it. Two inches of thickness is the most common, though some people who want extra performance go with three or even four. In your climate I'd think two is plenty, perhaps even one if money is tight.
The board is also laid around the perimeter, almost like an expansion joint, only it's thicker to provide thermal insulation. Typically around 1½ inches is used. Across a doorway to the exterior the insulation is usually dropped below the surface and topped with a pressure treated 2 x 2 or 2 x 4 on edge to form a thermal break but be durable enough to walk on.
You may wonder if the styrofoam will support the weight of concrete. It is rated for many times the pounds per square inch of compression that the slab would impose. It is used this way all the time, and manufacturers discuss the ratings as a spec in their literature.
The concrete should not be on the too wet side because excess water won't soak into the foam like it would with stone, so it will take longer to stiffen up and be weaker. A stiffer mix is a stronger mix anyway; most people make concrete too soupy.
This type of insulation is very effective. Remember, though, the slab takes some time to change temperature. So if you have a cold shop, say 50°, and want to warm it up to 70°, the warm up will be delayed as the slab sucks up some of the heat. The slab will be chilly for a day even after the air temperature reaches 70°. Conversely, if you have a warm shop and open doors to load lumber, after you close the doors the temperature warms back up quickly because the concrete heats the air. If you hold a constant temperature all the time, concrete behaves very well.
If you go with concrete, I'd recommend putting a fairly smooth finish on it. It's easier on the knees than stubbing your steps on a rough floor. If you go polished it will be too slippery with sawdust and some slick shoes.
I don't know of any websites off the top of my head, but I'm sure the insulation companies or some construction technique sites would have some pictures. Or ask at Breaktime. It really is as simple, though, as laying out the board and pouring on top of it.
Mine's also about 13 x 24, basement, below grade for the most part. Heating and cooling is with our house unit -- gas forced air, a Carrier AC unit.
Furnace/AC plenum has a high-particulate filter (rating is 11 or 12), which so far has worked well. Doesn't do the fan motor any good, but keeps things from going BOOM very nicely.
As I mostly use hand tools, I'm ok. When I ramp up the table saw, things may change.
We're installing a new furnace sometime soon, and I've asked Ron (the HVAC) guy to think about making me a dust collector based around the guts of the old furnace. If it works, I'll post photos and designs. So far, Ron hasn't giggled at me, so he may think it will work.
"I've asked Ron (the HVAC) guy to think about making me a dust collector based around the guts of the old furnace. If it works, I'll post photos and designs. So far, Ron hasn't giggled at me, so he may think it will work."
It will work to pull dust out of the air like some of the units you see made to hang on the ceiling.
IT WON'T WORK AS A DUST COLLECTOR TO HOOK UP TO A TOOL..
If you want to learn about dust collection go do a lot of reading here.
http://billpentz.com/Woodworking/Cyclone/Index.cfmSucking.......Whoosh.......Yowl........Whoosh.........Thrump puttytat up the DC..
As I said, we'll see what he can come up with. I don't know the specs of the squirrel cage fan that runs it. Something to suck dust out of the air won't be bad either. Depending on what it's got, what can be modified/added, I may be able to get 1,200 cfm or more out of it. Dunno. Worth a try, anyhow. Parts are paid for, mostly.Leon Jester
My shop is 20x20. It is above my garage which is detached from my house. I use a combination AC and heater in a single unit that is installed into a wall.
Good luck.
Todd
25'x50', two equal size rooms, separated by a garage door. Both rooms have 8' sidewalls, with open cathederal type ceilings. A ceiling mounted propane fired shop heater takes care of both. I only heat the main woodworking room most of the time, to save on $. It only takes about 5 minutes to heat up the cold room. I turn the thermostat down to 50-55 at night, up to 65 when I come in the shop in the morning. No AC needed in Montana, but my main room has windows on three sides and great cross ventilation in the summer.
Alan & Lynette Mikkelsen, Mountain View Farm, est. 1934, Gardens & Fine Woodworking, St. Ignatius, MT
Andyengel,
My shop is about 12x14 and includes a 275 gallon oil tank. For heating and cooling I use a concrete-floor-based system: in the winter I use electric socks, in the summer I go barefoot.
Barefoot! In my shop, that's not allowed (I tell the kids - put some shoes on (or slipper). Wood chips are not the issue - nails, tacks, pieces of glass (it's more than a wood shop - it's a bike shop, a fix the broken appliance shop, a make something fo the kids school project shop, take something apart with the kids shop (don't put it back together), sharpen the lawnmower blade shop, Trebuchet storage space, cut foam for a bow case shop.... foot protection is a must...Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Mark,
I put in my 25 years...the kids are gone (yippie !!). I don't have to set the example anymore...and the six bikes are stored in the garage...
I don't use nails or hardly any screws in my shop space....it is true however, that an occasonal dovetail chip will find its way to a tender spot unde my toes...a suitable barrage of verbal abuse will follow..as I said, I don't have to be a good example anymore...lol
12x14 - that's even smaller than my old shop, which was 15x15 (inside)!Sure made it easy to heat, though. It was insulated with 1.5" EPS on walls and ceiling, heated with a little 1500W electric. But I am in an extremely mild climate."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
My shop is 12' x 44' x 8' and i use an electric furnace and wood heat. Course it is super insulated and here in grant county Washington we have just about the cheapest electricity in the U.S.
My Wood Shop is 20x40 the back portion of my Steel building, the other portion is 25x40 that is Mechanical side and storage.
The wood shop is heated by a wood stove in one corner with a chimney heat exchanger with a fan attached. Building is insulated and since I don't use it all the time, on a real cold day I will break the chill with a Kerosene Heater till the wood stove get's to putting out some heat. Or if I'm just going to be out there a short time for a quick task.
Works OK since I have plenty of fire wood.
Hi Andy,I've missed seeing your name on the other side!My shop in the barn is 16x35. It has an uninsulated single garage type door and is mostly drywalled. The outside walls are insulated but the floor is not--and neither are the walls adjacent to the rest of the barn. I have been heating the shop room with a propane heater with the result that I can do some woodworking on cold days but it's useless for finishing from mid November to late March. I will be waiting to see your article because for next winter I would like to make some improvements. A friend has a barely used furnace that I could have free and I may take him up on it.
My shop is in a 24 x 36 pole barn. The front 20 feet contains a two car garage, plus bandsaw, drill press, lathe and stationary sander. No heat or insulation. The shop itself is 16 x 24 x 10, and is well insulated, has an insulated pine plank floor, and is heated with an Empire direct venting propane furnace. In Central NY, it gets to 5 or 10 below. I keep the shop at 50, and warm it up as needed when working. 60 is usually pretty comfortable. In coldest weather the heating cost is about $80-90/month. Over the shop is a storage area for lumber, 16 x 12 x 6. With a metal roof, it is like a drying kiln in summer. The shop remains comfortably cool throughout the summer, with 3 windows, and a 3' door to the outside, and a 5' door to the garage.Ken Werner
Hamilton, NY
Hi Andy,
I live in Tampa and don't usually need heat. Just add a sweatshirt and a hat on cold days. I just partitioned my 3rd bay in the garage and assume a small A/C unit will follow me home one of these days followed by a dehumidifier.
If I were setting up my shop for heat, I would vote for radiant floor heating. If not everywhere, then certainly around the perimeter of my work bench.
I look forward to your article.
Regards,
Ken
"Do as you would be done by." C.S. Lewis
Hello Andy, My shop is an old grocery store (Safeway #10) built in 1926) and is 50 X 100' with 12.5' ceiling height. I live in the office / studio which is about 1000' with heat and air, but the other 4000 feet of shop is heated with a wood-stove and no AC.
I am lucky, to have a shop that is easy to keep comfortable as cheaply as I do. During the hot days of Summer, I open the doors and draw in the cool air until it starts to warm up then I close the doors and turn the fans so they peep the air moving. Even if it get over 100 out-doors, it never get over 80 inside which is comfortable when the air is moving.
Later, Keith
Andy,
My shop is 16 by 20 stick-built gambrel roof affair, with an upper floor, and heating is simple. Down here in Nawlins' if it is too cold in the shop today I just wait until tomorrow. Oh, OK, if I just am really excited over a project and can't wait I have a little 240 volt portable heater that I plug into the table saw outlets, and that gets me through. But, it usually just stays in its storage box.
Woody
50' x 50' building with and additional 750 sq. feet on a second floor. There are two shops: 25'x50' and 20'x20'. The rest is gallery, office, storage, and restrooms. The entire building is radiant heat, slab on the ground floor and gypcrete on the second. The heating bill is very reasonable and there are no cold spots. Air conditioning??? Ha! This is Alaska, what's that?
I love the radiant so much I tore the baseboard hot water heat out of my house and installed it there also. What a job.
Jeff
My shop ate my house, er, the shop has expanded past it's proper 30x60 foot size and now includes much of my driveway/ front deck and even part of the side yard..
Once the house is finished (hopefully inside the next 6 1/2 years) I intend to shrink it back into it's 30x60 foot size..
Airconditioning? er, it's heated to 70 degrees in the winter (all 9 months of it) and the two or three days of the year that airconditioning could prove of a slight benefit I take the time off and go swimming..
My workshop is in my barn. I've insulated it and installed a woodburning stove. It will get the barn hot enough that I need to open the windows, durring mid winter. The barn is 36' x 36'. I do not have an AC unit but have found with large north south facing doors, the evening breeze in central California keeps it quite tolerable in the summer.
Andy,
My shop is a separate bldg, 28 x44', with a loft above for lumber storage. Three rooms, the shop proper is about 28x25', with two rooms 12 x14', one for finishing, and one for storage. Concrete slab floor. Wood stove heat in winter, supplemented with electric heater in the finish area at night. AC is a window unit, in the shop area.
Regards,
Ray
My shop is L-shaped, with a 14x24 "most usable area;" it's in the basement next to the furnace room. The stray heat produced by the heater keeps the shop nice and warm all winter.
I supplement this area with occasional use of an unheated garage for spraying finishes, when the outside temperature is over 55 F.
Great feedback! Thanks.Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Current shop is 28x30 with a 9x9 bathroom in one corner. Cathedral ceilings 7' to 12'. Insulated R-19 floor, walls, ceiling. Located on Mendocino coast, no AC needed (typical summer high temps mid-70s). Heated with woodstove burning mostly offcuts. Unheated in winter it usually only gets down to about 50 degrees inside, so it doesn't take much to warm it up."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
My shop is tiny: It's in a converted attached single car garage, of which about 100 square feet is actual shop space. The rest is storage for bicycles, skis and garden equipment, and a passageway from the door to the stairs. In this space I have a table saw, dust collector, planer, jointer, drill press, router table, and compound miter saw. I also have a monster work bench, a 12 foot long "counter" made of some old solid wood doors, and a rolling tool cabinet full of hand tools and portable power tools.
I'd love a bandsaw, but there's just no room.
It's ground level and heated, but it gets cold in winter (50 F / 10 C). No air conditioning: I store cold drinks there most of the year.
Logistics are interesting.
Edited 4/7/2005 10:00 am ET by Frozen
25' x 50', 10' walls and cathedral ceiling, infrared heat.
Lee
Your shop is roughly the same size as mine and I'm wondering where the cost differences in heating is. Mine is r19 in wall and around r38 in the ceiling. I live right on the Wash Coast and if I want to keep the shop heated to 65* in the winter, then I can probably use a bag of pellets a day at arount $2.75-$3.00 per bag. The past few weeks has been running around 1/2 bag per day. I have propane in the home and I could probably add in a line to a heater in the shop, but I am not sure as to the efficency. The pellet stove could be sold to offset the cost of a radiant heater.
I realize that Montana is a different climate, but what are your "variables" compared to mine... Can you elaborate?
Migraine, it was a bit of a joke. However, my workshop is insulated with closed cell foam and I have a wood stove that I use a lot.The infrared radiants are very efficient bragging numbers of something like 20% more efficient than in floor radiant and I have a two stage unit that's supposed be even more efficient.LeeMontanaFest
Lee,
What do you do for light? is daylight important to you quality?
My new garage has brick wall and the standard 8' plasterboard ceiling with very dim light (I have to open the roller door to do any thing seroius)
I have read in old carving books about the advantages of natural light, and the other weekend I installed two skylights in my father's corridor that made a huge difference.
So...do I follow the orginal plan and install several banks of flourescent (3*doubles within a 6meter length) which could use daylight tubes, try for something like sodium vapour lamps, or install a couple of skylights to supplement (these are a little bit of an expensive option added to the rest)?
David
Patto, my apologies, I just now discovered your message to me.I have skylights and quite a few windows but the natural light is not enough. I supplement with flourescent lights. I have 95% full sprectrum bulbs in the carving and bench area and 85% towards the machines. The attachment is a picture of my workshop, at least an end of it.Many of those books were written when incandescent was the only real option. The (nearly) full spectrum flourescents are fabulous light, much much better than cool white or other cheaper bulbs.LeeMontanaFest
Lee,
Thanks, we have vey bright summers here, but there are only a couple of small windows in my walls. Also, i'm in there mostly at night so the spectrum issue was pretty important.
David
Located in upstate NY, my shop is 440 sq. ft. with 7 ft. ceiling in the basement. Sheetrocked, insulated walls with hot water baseboard heat. No A/C. Concrete floor. Very comfortable year round.
Regards,
BlackDome
Anyone who thinks he knows anything doesn't know as he ought to know!
Andy,
I built a 36 X 72 stick framed shop with 10' ceilings, 2X6 walls with cellulose insulation. My heating contractor recommended and installed a self contained heat pump package unit. It's not the PTAC hotel room type, but looks like a furnace but compressor is in the case. It is installed at the center of the sidewall with intake and exhaust louvers thru the wall. I don't remember the BTU size. It seemed small when we discussed it, but it works fine. I generally keep the heat about 50 in the winter and about 65 when I'm in the shop.
Rather than heat source, I think the first concern is to build or retro fit the space so it is thermally efficient.
I'm in NW Arkansas and don't have the cold and hot extremes of some of the country. I seldom use the cooling except to reduce humidity.
I worked in a shop with suspended natural gas fueled heaters. It was a "thrill" the first time they were turned on in the fall and see the dust explode!
Bob
Mine's 22x22, a detached garage that hasn't seen a car in eons. The space over the ceiling joists has not been totally closed off, and one wall is cinder block. The other 3 walls have been sheet-rocked, and there is insulation on about half of the cinder block wall. Pretty drafty though.
A woodstove keeps the northwest dampness and cold at bay. No air conditioning needed.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
20 x 30 outbuilding on my property, concrete slab. I use a kero heater in the winter time, I'm a part timer, and two window air conditioners in the summer. On the really cold days, that's below freezing in Central VA, I run the kero for an hour before starting to work. The temp gets up to 50 degrees plus in that time and usually about 65 in two hours. Walls are insulated as is the ceiling so it holds the heat pretty well.
Hot summer days, 90s here, I run the AC units set at around 82 when I'm not in the shop and then adjust when I go to work. Does well and doesn't appear to eat a lot of electricity.
Kell
Making do in about 400 square feet of a basement myself, some of you folks are really starting to annoy me. <G>
A question for those of you with overhead radiant heat. It would make sense that this sort of heat could pretty quickly dry out one side of a board, creating an instant warp. Has that been a problem?
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
A senior editor at fww has a 400 foot shop?As our good friend Donald Trump likes to say, "You're fired."I just assumed that all at FWW got a big shop when they took the job (in lieu of pay :-)Must be that "liberal arts" degree.What does and engineer say to a liberal arts major?"Can I have fries with that?"All in fun,
Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Mark,Fear not. If you haven't seen the shop that Fine Woodworking has at the office, you couldn't know that nobody who works there needs one at home. I would just need a couch to sleep on but rumor has it that senior editors do have a couch in the penthouse corner office!
Hey - Don't go telling our secrets! Penthouse office suite indeed.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Do you know what to do when there's a liberal arts major at your front door?
Pay him for the pizza!
Well, my personal shop is fairly small, but we do have some pretty nice stuff here at work. I particularly like the big SCMI jointer.
As to that liberal arts stuff, if I'd ever finished college, my major was geology. Don't ask, it's a very long story.
Andy
Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Nope, not a problem as long as you observe clearances. The surfaces just get warm, like 75 degrees about 10' from the heater. It's actually great having a way to warm surfaces, I can cure varnish much quicker now by raising it a bit closer to the heater. Infrared radiant is very efficient, if it were any more efficient I'd be calling the propane company to bleed some gas out of the tank.It's great heat, Andy. No wind, it warms the floor, tools and material, and it's quick and efficient. It's cheap to install too.That part about drying the surfaces is caused by stuff being too close to the heater.LeeMontanaFest
Hey Andy,24' x 44' x16' ceiling, plus a 10' x 24' loft over a 10 x 12 finishing room (still under construction) and a 10 x 12 compressor/ dust cyclone/paint storage room.I use 6 2kW infrared radiant heaters in thee thermostatically controled zones of two heaters each. That's so I can turn on only one zone if I'm only working at the bench.No problem with lumber so far, but it would be easy enough to shade the lumber if needed.TomAfter the Northwest Knotfest, I'll post some pictures of the place, and the party.
Andy:
My shop is ####24X40 separate building with 10'ceilings. It has a separate oil fired furnace that simply blows hot air out a single outlet at the top of the furnace. No distribution system. The oil tank is outside and in NH that means using kerosene so that the fuel doesn't congeal.
I also have a 10'X4' south facing window and fairly large overhangs on the south and north sides of the barn. The result is a fairly cool place in the summer but lots of solar gain in the winter.
I typically set the thermostat at 50 from 6PM to 7:30 AM. Then the thermostat is set to 65 degrees from 7:30 AM to 6:00 PM. During a sunny day in the winter the temperature gets to about 70 degrees by solar gain by about 10:00 AM and stays that way until about 3:00 PM.
Total heating bill for a season is usually around 150 gallons of kerosene.
Hope this helps.
Stephen J. Gaal
I have a free standing building, the shop area is about 20' X 20' with 10' ceilings. Ceiling insulated with R30 and walls R13. Utah does get cold winters. I use a 65K HotDawg propane heater and I love it. I keep it at 50* when away and at 65* or so when we are using the shop. My cost for propane for the winter of 2004-2005 was about $70. In the summer I use a wall mounted "window type" AC. 8K btu I think, it works well to cool it off. Most summer days are around 90*+ in northern Utah.
Where in Utah are you? Up around Logan? I've spent a fair amount of time in your state, and think about moving there once the kids are launched.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
We in Taylorsville. Part of Salt Lake County. Just east of Salt Lake Community College. Logan is a beautiful area. This winter they were hit pretty hard with snow, fog and cold temps. thanks fot the not.
John
My wife lived in SLC for 6 years. Still one of our favorite places to visit, although it's changed considerably from the early 80s, when she was there.Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Andy, I've spent a lot of time in Logan the last 5-6 years. Our son graduated from USU and is now in the graduate program there. He bought a home three years ago, and I've done a lot of work on it. He loves the Logan area, but can't wait to get back to Montana.
I find Logan to be the most beautiful part of northern Utah, for sure, but I also find the economics to be very strange. The Salt Lake City area is exploding with growth. I find that general area to be very ugly. Logan, however beautiful it is, seems to be economically depressed to me. I see a lot of proverty type homes (Maybe it's just the neighborhood my son is in!). Our daughter in Bellingham, WA is selling her home and moving to Lewiston, ID. After two years of home ownership, she will walk away with $100,000-$125,000 in her pocket. Our son in Logan, UT, plans on selling in about two years and figures he will be only able to recoup his purchase and improvement prices, but will not enjoy any price appreciation. Alan & Lynette Mikkelsen, Mountain View Farm, est. 1934, Gardens & Fine Woodworking, St. Ignatius, MT
My shop "was" 26'x74', until we turn the first 20' into a game room for the kids(and me). This area has a 280sqft loft above with a 3'wide staircase. This loft is now the wife's space. I had grand visions of turning this space into wood storage, but got out voted. The rest of the 10 1/2"high x 26w' x 54'd space is mine. It has two 10' roll-up doors at the end and another about half way down. The space is heated with a pellet stove. I use two Jet air scrubbers that are mounted at the ceiling to filter the air and circulate the warm air as it rises. It will never, never see a car/truck inside
Even with all of this space, I still need to move machinery around just to be able to work. Most of the machines are on rollers, except for the PM66 with a jet sliding table attachment, which is bolted to the floor. I can't still make up my mind as to the best location for the saw, so it will probably get moved a few more times until I get it right.
Any of you considering building a shop, look into attic trusses. I wish I had put them accross the whole building.
My shop in upstate New York is 24'X 28', an addition to our house. Ceilings are 13' at the peak, 10' at the sidewalls. There are laminated beams at the 10' level that are not structural. They serve to suppport eight 8' dual fluorescent light fixtures that provide 180 foot candles at the bench top. I usually use four of the dual fixtures. The beams also support dust collection ducts and much of the wiring.
Heat is in-floor radiant, provided by a forty gallon natural gas hot water heater. There is no air conditioning. Ventilation is provided by five windows, a door, and a 24" fan.
The floor is smooth concrete with two coats of latex concrete sealer and a few coats of liquid wax.
How well does the water heater do, Bob? I've had heating contractors warn against using them for heat sources in radiant floor systems, but they still appeal to me.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Andy,
The system is pushing five years old, and in that time there has been no maintenance and the shop remains comfortable. Could I ask for more?
When I decided that I wanted to use hydronic floor heating and began to research it, I quickly learned that I was in a "Blind Men and the Elephant" scenario. Some pseudo experts said to use a regular boiler. Others said hot water heater. I was fortunate that the plumber chosen for the job by the general contractor had substantial experience in hydronic systems, and I couldn't be more pleased.The water temperature in the tank runs between 110 and 120 degrees F. The actual temperature of the floor doesn't feel warm to the touch, so it's somewhere near skin temperature.
Andy,
I just had another thought about the use of hot water heaters in these systems. There are two methods used. One is to use the same heater that provides domestic hot water for the house. The other is to use a closed system with no connection to the domestic system. Mine is a closed system. The reason for this is that there is a strong possibility for the bad bugs that cause Legionnaires' Disease to develop in the system when it isn't operated during warm months. Maybe those who are opposed to the use of water heaters in these systems are referring to the open system.Regards,Bob
You're right about the Legionella possibility, but the concern from my guy had more to do with using water heaters for other than their design purpose. He postulated that their might be problems on start up, and that the burners might deteriorate quickly.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Andy,
It's pretty difficult for me to respond in a meaningful way to your source's concern about burner life. I would think that might relate to the size of the area being heated and the length of time the burner is on in addition to the required water temperature. The only point of comparison I might make is that we have two water heaters near each other in our basement. It's not difficult to tell when one or the other burner is on. I hear the domestic heater running much more than the one for the shop heating system.
Regards,Bob
Andy, I just noticed your note about contractors warning against using water heaters for infloor radiant heating. I respectfully disagree with that position. My daughter and son-in-law built a new home in Bellingham, WA, two years ago. They have radiant heat in the basement and on the main and top floors of their 2800 sq. ft. home. They have not had a single problem with it and heating costs are phenomonally low. They have two natural gas fired water heaters sitting in the garage. They are identical heaters, maybe 80 gal., but I would have to confirm that. One heater is used for the radiant floor heat and the other for domestic hot water needs. Her total heating bill was under $100 a month for the coldest months, but she said rates took a big jump, and even though she's using less, her last two bills have been in the $110-$130 range.
But once again, a simple, no problem, clean installation and use. And she really likes things warm! Alan & Lynette Mikkelsen, Mountain View Farm, est. 1934, Gardens & Fine Woodworking, St. Ignatius, MT
My shop is 9x12, in the basement of my house. It's heated by an electric oil-filled space heater. The outside walls are thick concrete, so it doesn't get that cold.
Hi Andy:
My shop is in a 50's built, single car garage, about 15 by 22 feet. Here's my problem, I have insulated it well enough that a Kero-sun heater, about 18000 BTU will keep it in the high 60's if the outside temperature is above 20 degrees. I don't keep it heated all the time, and I experience a rust problem during the winter. If I clean the saw , band saw, and drill press tables and wax them they are fine until I turn the heat on for a day. The next day I have the rust back. I assume this is caused by the heating and cooling cycle. This, obviously, can be frustrating up here in New England. Any suggestions? Thanks......Len
Hey Len,The rust that you're getting is not just from heating and cooling, but the produt of combustion. Your KeroSun heater is pumping out water vapor and CO2, amongst other things. The water condenses when the shop cools off, and you get a dew fall in your shop.Your best solution is to get some type of heater that vents the products of combustion to the outside, while heating the inside. It will be better for your health as well.Tom
Hi Len. I suspect you're getting condensation because of the KeroSun. Burning any hydrocarbon nets carbon dioxide (or carbon monoxide if you have insufficient combustion air) and water. When the shop cools down, the water from the heater's exhaust condenses and causes rust. Well, that and New England's normally damp climate. I suspect you'd be better off with a vented heater.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
My studio (not a shop, please) is a little unusual. Though not big, at only 420 sq feet, it is trapezoid shaped, with a curved roof. Hard to picture? See the attached photos. I designed and built it myself. The roof idea came from a house and artist studio featured in Fine Homebuilding.
The studio is heated with propane. The heating unit is located at the short end of the studio. Because the interior ceiling follows the roof line, and reaches to 13 feet at the interior peak, the heat reaches the other side of the studio quite nicely by convection. The small upper level windows expel the heat during the summer and the roof overhang is calculated to prevent direct solar gain June-October. The windows face true south, providing an assist to winter's heating needs.
So it's not just the heating unit that can make a difference. Your article should also discuss the advantages of passive solar heating and cooling.
I can't find the pictures in my computer right now, but will continue to look for them.
-Bob
Funny - I edited that article in FHB on the copper roofed studio. Never suspected anyone would read it. <G>
Yes, any article that I do will mention solar gain.
Andy
Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Edited 4/8/2005 9:30 am ET by ANDYENGEL
Andy , I have a restored Barn,24 x 48. Cut the center of the rafters out to gain height of half the shop and added two pre enginered beams to support the same,added two inch styro to the ceiling & Reg Insul. to the walls before sheetrocking.Got a good deal on a HVAC unit,stuck it in my half ceiling,I use the heat strip in the blower unit to take the chill off along with a Fisher wood burning stove when it's real cold here in Georgia.
My free-standing shop is 16 x 25 feet. Living in southern Louisiana, AC is a must. I heat and cool with a large window-type unit like you find built into the wall of many motel rooms.
Andy,
I'm in western Mass.
My shop is in cellar. About 1,800 SF minus the boiler, hot water heater, oil tanks and stairs. I haven't added any supplemental heating and the temperature goes down to about 60 on the coldest days of the winter and stays in the 70's in the summer. I have an electric radiant heater which I keep saying I should use but I am worried about the sawdust. Should I be.
ASK
Should you be worried about an electric radiant heater? Maybe. There are a lot of them out there, though. What's the surface temperature get to? How dusty is your shop? Do you use flammable finish products? Heaters with a high surface temperature would not be my first choice, no matter the energy source.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
My shop is 30 X 40, 9' ceiling with inslab radiate heating. The boiler is 'off peak' electical fired. The off peak rate is less then half of the usual rate. My first electric bill was really high. Not only did the slab have to get warmed up for the first time but we had four days where the temp did not get above 0 degrees. My first thought was that I made a huge mistake going electrical. The bills have been more manageable since then.
A friend of mine has a 30 X 45 shop, 9' ceiling using a L.P.G. hotwater heater to heat the slab. His yearly bill is close to $1000.00. So maybe I didn't do too bad after all.
Ken
Hi Andy,
I build a shop last summer and it is 24'x40' and it is heated with a
radiant hydronic floor system in an insulated slab on grade construction.
I chose this system so that I would not have to blow dust around
(from the heating system :)) and for fire safety.
I use a 3 loop system controlled by a wall thermostat.
The heat source is a direct vent gas water heater(using water) - gets combustion air from outside, so no explosion risk.
I live near Ottawa Canada and this system has performed flawlessly for the whole winter. I set the thermostat in Early November and have not touched it since.
Heat recovery time from an open door is < 2 minutes because everything in the shop is effectively a radiant heater.
Everything is kept(tools, wood...) at a constant temperature and the shop feels the same inside, even when it is -40 degrees C.
The tools need far less adjustment than when I ran them in my garage
heating/cooling and rust issues have been eliminated.
I highly recommend this type of heating for a woodworking shop,
and would be happy to answer any questions about this.
Cheers,
Wil
Sharpie, if you don't mind me being nosy, what was the installed cost of the system? Did you contract it out, or do it yourself? Details, please.
Thanks,
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Hi Andy,
I was lucky on this one as a friend(a good one)who runs a large heating contractor company, got me the parts wholesale.
The going rate for this system parts only is about:
$1600CDN Radiant heating module(includes manifolds,valves and expansion tank)
This could be made for half the price, but I got it wholesale.
$800CDN direct vent water heater
$800CDN pex piping(KITEK) or less for regular PEX
+ 30 PSI pressure relief valve(system runs at 15PSI, the one on the water heater is 120PSI)
+ gas hookup
I installed the whole system myself except for the gas hookup(you need to be a certified gas installer).
Before the slab is poured tie wrap the PEX tubing to 6X6 wire mesh in the forms- I used KITEK PEX because it can be done by one person because it bends and holds it's shape much like copper wire whereas regular PEX is quite a handful for even 2 people since it has it's own idea of what shape it's going to take.
I used software from the contoller manufacturer to design the system,
based on the window area/do0r area/sq footage/insulation/ceiling height/geographic locationSince this is an outbuilding and is self contained, I did not need a plumber or plumbing permit for this and the plumbing was not an issue.
I was concerned at first about using water instead of glycol, but the problem is that I would have to pay triple for a glycol boiler even though the system only needed 35,000 BTU.
Another factor is the Glycol- REALLY BIG BUCKS!!!!!
Also Glycol *will* destroy a domestic hot water heater. It took me about 4 hours to plumb and prime the system, a good plumber could do this in a couple of hours or less.I estimate that it cost about $700CDN or less to heat the shop for the whole winter. The pump is quite small and draws little current. Hope this helps,
Wil
Thanks Wil, it does help. Where did you get the online design help?
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Is anyone using Enerjoy radiant panels?
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Did you ever find anyone using Enerjoy radiant heat panels?I have asked the company for references, but never received any.I have spoken to Ross Day who mentioned Enerjoy in the first annual issue of FW's Tools and Shops which is where I first learned of Enerjoy. He remains an avid fan of the panels and a satisfied Enerjoy customer.I am building a new shop and approaching pouring the concrete floor which needs to include radiant floor tubing if Enerjoy isn't what my small sample says it is.
My shop is a 15' X 26' X 8' separate building. I have two electric baseboard heaters in the winter and two windows in the summer. It actucally stays relatively cool in the summer as the walls are 6" insulated. The floor is slab on grade.
For a workshop, I thing radiant floor heat is ideal. It gives even heat, no air currents and no hot elements.
My (hobbist) work shop is 38 x 14 and situated in our new house's basement. It has radiant heat in the concrete slab and a 2 HP Penn State cyclone for dust collection.
Andy
My shop is 36 X 45, 12 foot ceilings. R19 walls, R30 ceiling. Heater is 100K btu radiant tube heater down center of building, which is a pole barn. Concrete floor warms up, and heats the whole space nicely. Bench and assembly area will have hardwood floor soon, as soon as I can make it.
Jeff
Andy: my shop is now in my former barn ,the walls are 2x4 x10' r12.5 ceiling is r20 insuated , I insulated the office bathroom r20 with stryrofoam under the concrete slab .
The office is baseboard electric and the shop is propane radiant plus baseboard electric,
the shop does not have styrofoam under the concrete so i have rugs on the floor's to keep them comfortable in winter when it hits -20f which is too often here in eastern Ontario above NY border
24x36 polebarn divided into two rooms.
Finishing/handtool/glueup room: 12x24x8' ceilings. R19 walls, R38 ceiling. Sheetrock walls/ceiling. 2" foam and vapor vapor barrier over concrete floor. 1 1/4" ply raised floor over foam. Cheap lam flooring over ply. Two 2500 watt 240v electric in wall heaters. Heated to 60 in winter all times. Inexpensive heat for small, well insulated space. High winter humidity is controlled by steady heat which holds down rust on hand tools.
Main machine room: 24x24x12' ceilings. R19 walls, R19 ceilings. 1/2" ply wallcovering. Bubble insulation sheeting over R19 in ceilings. Concrete floor w/foam mats. Portable 5000w 240v electric heater turned on when actually in shop if and as needed.
Western Oregon....mild winters (not often below freezing). Winter nights usually upper 30's. Daytime winter temps usually mid 40's. Fairly cheap hydropower generated electricity. Insulation keeps summer heat reasonable.
My shop is 2 stories. Downstairs is 13'x28'. Upstairs is 26'x28'. (My wife's car has a closed off area of 13'x28' in the downstairs.)
Only the upstairs needs heating and A/C. I use a 1500w electric heater for heat. I use open windows and fans for A/C.
Andy,
My Shop is About 55' X 70' with a few Interior Walls. I Heat it with a Wood Burning Boiler, & About 300' of Copper Fin-Tube. It Works well when Somebody Here to Feed the Fire.What I Need to do is Add a Propane Tank, & Boiler For the Times No One's Around ( I Don't Have Natural Gas ). My Building is Well Insulated, & Holds the Heat Well. I Tend to Work Alot of Nights, and Have a Guy Working for me that Starts at 5 AM so we manage to Keep it Comfortable.
The Problem with Fin-Tube is Trying to Keep it Clean. Fine Dust seems to Cling to it, & Blowing it Out is a Dirty Job.
I Have a Large Window Air Conditioner, but only Use it at Night because it Tends to be a Dust Filter if You Use it During Production Times. ( If its Cooler Inside Keep the Doors Closed, Insulation Works Both Ways)
Sounds a Bit Crude, but it Works for Me.
My Shops in Pittsburgh, so my Extremes Aren't Usually to Severe
I have a 20' x 20' garage. Since I'm in San Jose, CA, heating isn't a frequent problem and I use a kerosene heater on those rare occasions when I need to keep something warm overnight. If I don't use the heater, I'll use my halogen work light (2- 500w bulbs).
My arrangement is based around my table saw and workbench (which doubles as the saw outfeed table). My TS is right at the garage door and faces toward the back of the garage. When I'm cutting sheet goods, I slide them out of the pickup onto sawhorses and make my rough cuts with a circular saw and guide. When I have manageable pieces, I run them thru the TS and onto the workbench. My other stationary tools (band saw, drill press and dust collector) are arranged around the work bench. My DC hard piping hangs under the workbench with flex drops and blast gates to the TS and stationary tools. I also have a blast gate and hose connection at the workbench for my biscuit cutter and ROS. I use that connection for general vacuuming when I'm too lazy to drag out the shop vac. - lol
Last year, I got the Makita LS 1013 SCMS and I'm still working on the best way to get it set up "permanently".
My shop is a purpose-built pole barn, 24'x48', 12' walls, 16' at ridge, roof trusses spaced every 12'. Plus an attached 24'x24' 3-sided carport area, for a total size of 24'x72'.
Concrete floor w. in-floor electrical and dust collection (which runs to a separate shed outside for the DC). Currently uninsulated, but that will change this summer. This building's been a project extending over several years.
I currently heat it with two ceiling-mount forced-air electric heaters, 17K BTU each. Not the most economical heat source, but this is a hobby shop that isn't in constant use. Plus, in Western Oregon it rarely gets real cold, or real hot.
Detached building from house, 22' by 22'. Woodstove and two ton AC. It's Texas, so the woodstove is really only needed at most 6 weeks a year. The AC gets much more usage.
RJT,
Back in the 70's there was a significant amount of experimentation with different heating systems concepts using wood and coal...one of the very best was coal and hot water system...however, wood could be substituted.
The idea is to put a large (30-50 gal. tank)on top of a wood stove or coal burning stove and fill it with water. Your fire heats the water.
Setting up a one pipe system, you pull the hot water from the top of the tank, circulate it thru the room(either tubing under floor, or old cast iron radiators arond the room) and return used water to the bottom of the tank. This method requires a pump and a one way valve. It is also possible to engineer the piping and create steam so that a pump is not required (uses gravity to distribute the steam and condensation)
Coal was prefered because one shovel in the morning and one at night basically did the job...and it was a small fire. The larger issue was what to do with the ashes...
My shop in North Florida is in a detached 22 x 22 building. No heat or air. I am in the process adding a 10 x 22 shed onto the back of the building for wood and other storage; should be finiished by June. Longer term I plan to insulate and wall the bare studs which willl allow me to heat & ac. My main problem is being too hot in the summer rather than to cold in winter.
My shop is 20 X 25 with 11 foot ceilings. It is in an attached two car garage. I ran a supply and return form the house forced air unit through the wall. On the return I put a 20" x 25" house filter so the air is filtered as it returns to the rest of the house. I also have a way of closing it off if I'm finishing or creating too much of a stink.
On the supply side I put a portable box fan in front it so i could pump more air if I need it. While I'm not in the shop the air will still go into the shop so it won't freeze or get really hot. But when I go into the shop I can turn on the fan and change the temp pretty quickly. Last week I took the shop from 58* to 66* in an hour and a half using the fan. Both the filter and the fan are tucked under a bench/shelving unit that runs along the wall.
I'm not sure which is cheaper - PVC or PEX. With PEX, you have no concealed joints, and it's got a long track record for radiant heat. PVC may have a greater coeffecient of expansion, which is a bad thing. There are also environmental concerns with the manufacture and eventual disposal of PVC that PEX lacks. I'm not sure that I completely buy into these concerns, but byproducts of the manufacture of halogenated hydrocarbons such as PVC may include dioxin and phosgene, both of which can also be realeased if PVC burns. PEX is much friendlier, and it's not hard to work with.
Andy
Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Andy,
At 20' x 13' w/ an extra 7' x4' understair area and a separate wood storage area of 2' x 8' x 7'h, I'm jealous of your shop space! Basement shop in Suburban Washington, DC/No. VA. TS, Router Table, Drill Press, Belt/Disk Sander, 6" jointer, 12" planer, 10" chop saw. Of my two benches, one folds down when not in use, and I built a collapsible tool holder/drafting table that also lays flat against the wall when not in use. Every bench/power tool is on wheels, which is just an absolute must-have for a tiny space. It's a PITA having to push stuff around, but I can at least always find a safe and comfortable position for whatever operation I'm performing. Heat comes through a register in the ducting inside the shop, and the basement stays nice and cool, sometimes too much so, in the summer.
As I wrote in a previous thread, I've had problems http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=22467.1 (now for the most part cleared up) with sawdust getting into my heat exchanger, which is in my shop along with my hot water heater.
The problem was mostly solved (at least for the HVAC system) by sealing all intake areas and duct joints with aluminum HVAC tape. When the tech came to clean out the coil, fan and motor, he was pretty confident I'd sealed things up to the point where dust infiltration into the HVAC system won't be a problem going forward.
He also brought me a squirrel cage blower fan and motor so I can construct a combo downdraft/outfeed/assembly table. I already used one to make a shop-made air filtration system, but on units where I can't get great dust collection, like my sanders and handheld router, I can't do much to trap the dust before it can spread all over the shop. Hopefully the large downdraft table with 1200 cfm will take care of that.
I think this is probably one of the biggest issues with basement shops, especially ones w/o outside ventilation. And, of course, mobility. I also can't afford the space for a cabinet saw with a dedicated outfeed table, and I'll figure out where to put the BS when I finally buy one. If it helps, you can see pix of my shop on the above link.
Hope that helps,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
Interesting question about PVC v. Pex. About 15-18 years ago, my father, who is notoriously cost concious (cheap?) and has always done everything himself, built a new home and laid a grid of plain old black PVC pipe in the floor of the basement. He hooked it up to a wood stove that he had welded a pipe manifold in, connected it to a 5-7 gal tank that sits behind the stove, poured in about two gallons of automotive antifreeze, hooked up a small pump and has been using it ever since. His fuel bills are virtually negligible. He has a lot of scrap wood from trees he cuts up, but he will burn his garbage in the stove, too! He was a Great Depression child and I think that has colored his whole approach to life. The rest of us could probably learn a lot........Alan & Lynette Mikkelsen, Mountain View Farm, est. 1934, Gardens & Fine Woodworking, St. Ignatius, MT
My father and uncle were similar - Give them a pile of scrap and they could cobble up a space shuttle. There's a lot to admire about folks like that.
Logan isn't the prettiest spot in Utah, no doubt. SLC, though, is one of my favorite cities, and I've visited a lot of cities. I think I could live there, but I'm not sure they let in Presbyterians. <G> Utah, in my experience, is best seen from back roads. I particularly like the Edward Abbey country of southeast Utah.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
My shop is an old Japanese barn, 25' X 18' that opens into a room about the same size and then another of the same size again. The frame is made of big timbers and logs, the walls are clay mixed with grass and wood for sheathing, with sliding doors. Thing is put together like nothing in the west. Heat this building? Not likely, In the winter we get a lot of snow so it does get cold. I seldom use power tools so I generate my own heat working with hand tools. When I'm doing less active work I use a kerosene space heater near my working area, wear lots of clothes, hat, scarf, and fingerless gloves.
Quite interesting, but atypical. <G> I'll bet it's beautiful.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
I did my first PEX job installing the radiant floor in my house. There was a learning curve that lasted about 5 minutes. It's really simple, what with the only connections being at the manifold. The perpendicular runs that had to run through holes in the joists were the hardest. If you get to doing it and want advice, email or call me and I'll tell you my experiences.
Andy
Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
As promised a few days ago, here is a picture of my studio with the curved roof, designed using concepts presented in Fine Homebuilding (a small studio and a larger house). The windows face true south for solar heating in the winter. The upper windows expell the hot air in the summer. The overhang of the curved roof shield the windows from the sun in the summer. Inside, the ceiling follows the curve of the roof. I am located in Lost River, West Virginia.
-Bob
Very nice!Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Resized as a jpg.Leon Jester
This may be a little larger than norm, but our main work space is about 14,000 sf with 14' ceilings. We heat it with ceiling hung gas fired heaters, which would do a great job if our spray booths weren't sucking all the air out the other side of the shop. Heating bills run about 4k per month in the winter.
Paul Downs
HEAT?? what's that? I wish!
My supplier provided me with design help. There are now online suppliers that provide the same service. As long as you have enough tubing under the floor, things aren't that critical. The water temperature can be adjusted, and the flow in each loop can be adjusted. Throw an outside anticipator thermostat into the system, and it can start raising the water temperature as the outside temperature declines. Or don't, and just use the floors to maintain a baseline temp in the shop. Add an electric radiant ceiling heater over your bench for quick warmups.
Andy
Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
My shop is a seperate building of 750 ft/sq. I heat about 600 ft/ sq with a combination of a wood stove and a forced hot air furnace. In the winters here I go to the shop and turn the furnace on to take the chill out of the air and i get the wood stove going. It takes about 1 1/2 hrs to get the heat in the shop up to 55-60 on the real cold days using the stove alone so I get it up to temp with the furnace and then go to the stove. There is nothing quite like backing your glutes up to a wood stove when it is 10 F outside. I use cut offs as kindling wood and I have a wood pile of seasoned hard wood to maintain the temp in the shop. Seems to work pretty nicely
Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
I work in a detached old 25' x 25' garage with a 12' shed addition on the back (shared with the washer and dryer and shelves of various stuff). It's drafty and mostly uninsulated. I heat with a boxwood heater (small cheap woodstove - $150 stove, $400 chimney). To reclaim the minimum distance to flammables (3'), I put the stove only 16" away from a wall with durarock on it and a second sheet of durarock spaced about 1/2" away from the wall. It doesn't really get cold here in the central valley of the grand state of confusion (near Sacramento) so the small wood stove is enough.
We have lots of trees: a small pistachio orchard, eucalyptus windbreaks, and lots of "weed trees" (like black walnut). So, we heat the house and the shop with wood from the ranch.
If it doesn't get really cold here, it does get pretty darn hot! I cool with a swamp cooler (evaporative cooler), thanks ForestGirl for the info about swamp coolers. It gets the shop cool enough for most summer days, at least until mid afternoon - pool time!
The best move I made was to move the dust collector and air compressor outside the garage into a shed addition I put on the side of the garage. It cut the noise down a lot and freed up some room. Besides, the fine dust that escapes the DC bags is outside the shop, not inside. The air that the DC sucks out is not a big problem in winter given the drafty nature of this old garage; in summer, swamp coolers need lots of air flow anyway.
Having lived my life thus far in the humid east, the idea of evaporative cooling is at best theoretical and at worst a twisted joke. I don't entirely understand how swamp coolers work. I get the physics, but not the configuration. Is there a heat exchanger that's cooled by evaporation? Or is the evaporation directly cooling the air? The nut of my question is this - Does a swamp cooler increase the humidity of the air?
Andy Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
A swamp cooler is a big (about 30") cube, at the least the one I use. IT's made from sheet metal with louvers on three sides. There's an air duct on the fourth side, the one that goes against the building.Each set of louves occuplies almost the entire side of the device and is covered on the inside by a thick loose pad of alder excelsior. A pump in the bottom dispenses water to each pad so that it's always wet when the cooler is running. A float operated valve keeps the bottom of the cooler full of water to about 1" depth.There's a big squirrel cage fan inside the unit that sucks air in through the louvers, cooling it as the water in the pad evaporates, and blows it out through the air duct into the building. They work really well in Arid Zone A and the southern Cal deserts. Here in the Central Valley, they work well when you really need them. They're cheap to buy and to operate. In such a hot dry summer place, the humidity is no problem for cast iron etc. It just evaporates.The humidity cycle here is opposite the east making furniture design much less touchy. In the east, the air is wet in the summer and dry in the winter. Add to that the drying effect of heating the air up to 70 or 80 degrees in the winter, and you have tremendous annual swings in indoor humidity and furniture self-destructs if you haven't used all those thousands of years of woodworking knowledge in your design (hard experience talking).Here in the grand state of confusion, it's wet in the winter. We don't heat more than about 30 to 40 degrees mostly so the indoor humidity doesn't drop all that much. Then, in the summer, it's very dry and can be a little on the hot side (Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha.) So, indoor humidity doesn't vary all that much and us woodworkers can cheat a little on movement.
Makes perfect sense. And adding a little humidity to the air in a Central Valley summer can't be a bad thing. I've spent a lot of time in Utah in the summer, so I've experienced swamp coolers. I was just never sure if the house air was directly cooled by evaporation (it is), or if there was a heat exchanger.
You've got the northeast humidity cycle down pat. Right now, we're on the upswing.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
directly cooled by evaporation Sort of like a old ARMY canvas water bag.. Keeps the water cooler by evaporation!
A swamp cooler .. I kept my beer in one in Texas! Just cool and not to cold!
I have a 32' x 48' pole type building that was already here when I bought the place. So far I've placed 1" (R-7) foil-backed insulation board on the walls. And I installed a drop ceiling just under the truss height of 14". I wanted a heating system that would not injest dust or fumes. So I installed a radiant heater overhead. It is made up of a stainless steel tube that brings in air from one end of the shop,heats the air in a small burner, then blows the air on through the 4" tube out the other end of the shop. It has a heat sheild that reflects the heat downward. It works great here in Ill. but only if you leave the thermostat set at a constant comfortable temp. However it is EXTREMELY costly to run in my shop. We use propane in our rural area and during the coldest days it never shuts off. So we invested in a wood fired furnace this past winter. It keeps the shop much warmer and helps dry my stickered lumber. It is by far cheaper to opperate, even considering the labor of cutting and splitting wood. But now, even though they said they would allow it, my insurance co. is frowning. In my next shop I would like to have radiant floor heat with a wood fired boiler.
I am in Shreveport, LA. My shop is a metal building about 17X34 main room with a 17X8 back storage room. Concrete floor from several different pours. A former owner probably replaced a detached garage. This is an old part of town and having a building like this is very rare. No insulation or ceiling. Very hot in the summer and a bit too cold in the winter. Bought one of those kerosene heaters. Never have been able to use it. Part of it floods up to about 1-1/2" when it rains. It is wonderful to have a place to work and I would improve it, but we are leaving the state. I'll have to sell.
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