I retired, built a 24 X 34 shop which is attached to my home. I intended to build some furniture and enjoy my retirement years doing some woodworking. Making money was not a high priority. I now find myself getting some woodworking jobs I just can’t turn down. I do not need to work, but find the chance to do some jobs which gives me $ to significantly upgrade my shop and do some extra traveling with my first wife.
My first move is to build a really good router table. I have the equipment for that upgrade already. What I need to do now is to make equipment change to allow me to more easily and accurately cut 4 X 8 sheet stock. I have been thinking about getting a Festool and building a 4 X 8 cuting table. If I go that route, I would appreciate hearing from some of you who have cutting tables and/or Festool saw system.
Replies
coolbreeze,
A couple of guys in our woodworking club in Pennsylvania are retired and each has a nice size shop. You sound as if you are one of them. They wound up doing a couple of projects for other people and now they can't quit. And, they are saying, I can only make good money doing kitchen cabinets and that is not what I want to be doing.
Anywho -- they griped about the cost of Festool, but Rick bought one, and now he can't stop adding new pieces. They each love the quality and performance of the tools. I don't own any so I am only reporting what I have heard them say.
Alan - planesaw
I currently have a Delta contractors saw with a 30" extension. I do not have an outfeed table. I have the TS well tuned but as you can imagine, running a 4X 8 through is a job. My fence is the Unifence and deflection is a problem when running a big sheet. To resolve the deflection, I generally will clamp the back side of the fence.
My wife and son plotted to buy me a new cabinet saw but I told them I wanted to thoroughly think it through before. I may still yet get a new cabinet saw and a Festool after all is said and done. All my machines are mobile and my new router table will be also. Even so, I do not have unlimited space.
Thanks for your reply.
You seem dead set on ruining your retirement by working, nevertheless, I'll try to help. If it's cabinets you are going to be building then a european slider is what you need. But you haven't the space..... so, I think I'd choose the Festool system. Loads of people say it's the cat's meow for accurate cutting and dust collection. Perhaps you can combine a 4x8 cutting table with a vacuum veneering table. You will want to get into veneer work.
Now...... don't read this if you don't want to get any grief about your decision to take a few jobs on the side:
You're crazy. I'm a professional who doesn't build kitchen or any kind of big cabinet jobs. I do strictly custom furniture... the kind I like and things that are truly unique. Nevertheless, I can't wait until I get to the point where I don't have to do commission work any longer. It's simply too onerous. Don't get me wrong, I love most of my clients. But no matter how I slice it, doing commissions is not doing what I want to do. And to me, retirement is all about doing what I want. I will always have a shop, I really like to make things and my wife would go craze if I didn't have a place to go to . But, I'd rather make things and give them away than have to charge for them. It'd be far more fun.
You may be right about ruining retirement. I will complete a current job around the end of the week, My client asked me if I wanted to take on more work. I told him thet I would take 4-5 a year but they would have to be for clients who did not want the work done yesterday, didn't require me to work with bargain basement materials and did not ask about the price first.
Making good points, sapwood. My plan is to take no more that 4-5 jobs a year and be selective about what I do take. I have a 4 in front of me now. One is a freebee for a lady in Biloxi who lost everything except the shell of her house. I will build her cabinets. No insurance and, so far, only $20,ooo in grants. Problem is for her, her house is in the historical district and her buildback is highly regulated. She still hasn't gotten a dime yet from FEMA. She is currently living in a FEMA trailer which is parked in her back yard.
Thanks for your reply.
Hey Cool,
My plan is to take no more that 4-5 jobs a year and be selective about what I do take. I have a 4 in front of me now. One is a freebee for a lady in Biloxi who lost everything except the shell of her house. I will build her cabinets. No insurance and, so far, only $20,ooo in grants.
Let me know if you need any help with those cabinets. I've whittled those bozos in Ponthatoula down to the bone on plywood and such, and you can use my discount. My mom is in the same boat as your friend in Biloxi. 7 feet of water in the house with no flood insurance, and she got about $16,000 in federal assistance (FEMA). Just got the sheetrock finished and her cabinets are in the shop now being built. Hope to have her back in by Christmas. Anything you need, let me know.
Lee
Thenks, Lee
I have your email and just may take you up on using your good buying power in Ponchatoula.
Cool
Coolbreeze,
I made a very simple but effective cutting table with three 6 ft 2 x 4s and five three ft 2x4s. I notched them so the three 6 footers sit on edge on two saw horses and the five three footers drop into them to form a grid with all top edges flush. This gives me all the support necessary for a 4 x 8 sheet with space for clamps to secure a straight edge at any angle. The six footers are spaced 15" on center and the three footers are spaced about 16" oc.
With a sheet of plywood on the grid I have very usable assembly table. I can take the grid apart or put it together in a minute or so. Think I bought two twelve ft 2 x 4s and one ten footer. It took less than an hour to make the grid.
I have a set of the Stanley black and yellow plastic collapsible horses that are height and length adjustable ( about $50/ pr. as I recall), but use whatever horses are handy.
I still use a wooden shooting board but plan to buy either the EZ Guide or the Festool. I'm leaning toward the EZ at the moment. If you go to "Advanced Search" and type in either EZ Guide or Festool you'll find more more than you ever wanted to know about the guide systems.
oldfred.
Hey Cool,
I built a 4 X 8 table as an outfeed for my table saw and that has helped my back and my accuracy tons! I would build the 4 X 8 table and use it as an outfeed from the saw before I plunged the bucks on the festool. If it doesn't do what you need it to, then you already have the 4 X 8 table to work with. I absolutely love mine. I use it for glue-ups & assembly but it excels at cutting those big sheets of ply. It definitely makes cutting plywood by yourself much easier. I used 2 -2X4's for each leg screwed together at 90 degrees, and made the table top height about 1/2" lower than the saw table height. Then I put t-nuts on the bottom of each leg and use a 1/4 X 20 threaded hex bolt as leg levelers to get the height even with the saw's cast iron tables and extension table. Even when cutting a full sheet lengthwise, the sheets won't tip off the end of the table. I think the total cost was about $60 - pine 2 X 4's for the legs and 3/4" MDF for the top.
Lee
My apologies to coolbreeze for this but I need to ask mapleman where he got the steel cabinets in the background of two of his shots? And what was their original use?
No apology needed. I too would like to know.
Hey cool,
I emailed QC directly so as not to hijack your post, but since you asked here goes:
Everyone who see's those cabinets loves them. I got them several years ago from my brother-in law, whose father in law owns his own demolition business. They were tearing down an old hospital in New Orleans, and had hauled all of these cabinets (enough to fill up a house lot) to a vacant storage lot before selling them for scrap. They are 100% stainless steel, except for the glass on the doors( which is tempered). The door at the bottom left was in each cabinet was a small refrigerator, the door on the bottom right housed the refrig compressor, which I removed, and both sides have adjustable shelves.There is also a tiny sink in each cabinet (about 8" square) behind the glass doors, and a small compartment that locks. Since there were so many of these, I would imagine there was one in each room, maybe for a doctor to wash up before examining a patient, and which medicine could be locked up in? Not sure. But the price was right - free. Couldn't pass it up and they cleaned up great. I think I had to replace 1 pane of glass.
Cheers,
Lee
Looks like that is one of a find. Not likely any of us will be able to be so lucky.
While I am trying to make up my mind about what to do in the area of a new cabinet saw v Feestool for cutting sheetgoods, I may just give eBay a try for a find on a tablesaw. I really like the new Powermatic, and have been thinking about buying a new one but can give eBay a chance. I don't know how often they have a cabinet saw for bid.
Hope you have recovered from the ravages of Katrina. I have a lot of sunlight where I used to have shade. Otherwise, anyone who has not been to my place would never know that the beast hit.
I do like your set-up.
I copied your text for future(near) reference.
It looks like you have a powermatic cabinet saw. It also looks like your compressor is under the saw. Is that a permanent place for it? Also, do you have a laminate surface for the table?
Hey Cool,
to answer your questions:
The compresssor is semi-permanent. Under the saw is a good out-of-the-way place for it. The compressor is a little on the small side for spraying HVLP, so I hope to upgrade to a larger upright in the next year or so. In the meantime, I have been using a regular (not hvlp) devilbiss gun with not-so-bad results. When I spray outside, I just roll it closer to where I am spraying.
The table saw extension table is laminate, but I opted not to laminate the top of the outfeed table because of the cost of the laminate. I'm glad I didn't, it has been scratched to hell because I use it for an assembly table as well. When it gets too bad off, I'll just pop off the screws and put down a fresh sheet. I don't find there is too much friction on it when I am cutting, but most of what I use is 1/2" plywood. The laminate would definitely reduce friction and repel glue. Feel free to stop by and check it out if you get down my way anytime soon. By the way, that is a model 66 5hp saw with the 50" fence. Thanks to ebay, $1400 + $138 to ship to me. Showed up 3 days before Katrina did. Good thing the shop made it through ok!
Lee
"and do some extra traveling with my first wife." Hmmm, does your second wife know about this? Or does your first and only know that something is coming down the pike? Sorry, couldn't resist.
Anyway, I'm intrigued by the Eurekazone EZ Smart Table for sawing sheet goods with. Check it out at http://www.eurekazone.com/products/index.html. Once I've moved into my new shop (a relatively huge 24'x26', compared to my current 11'x15') I'll seriously consider one.
coolbreeze,
have you looked into a shaper instead of a router table?
a shaper can do everything a router table does but do it better and safer..Plus you can buy a good shaper cheaper than a good router and table..
leave your router free to use where it's mobility is an asset..
Now as to sawing 4x8 sheets..
Laying a sheet down to saw it into smaller pieces is a real waste of space in my opinion.. I have this great big cabinet saw and was going to buy the sliding attachment to easily cut sheets..
What I found is that if you need to cut an expensive sheet of plywood into smaller pieces you need to stop and rethink things..
Find a good sawmilll and buy direct.. You can buy solid wood so much cheaper than plywood that it will pay you to start working with wood.
Here's the numbers..
a sheet of plywood has 32 sq.ft. What is your cost of a sheet of 3/4 inch white oak?
$60.00
Less? $45.00?
I'll bet it's not $25.60 which is what I can buy it for..
Other wood is priced accordingly and the really neat part is taking wood that on the surface is flawed and buying it for pallet wood prices..
Pallet wood sells for around 15 cents a bd.ft. so 32 sq.ft. would cost you around $4.80.
Before you poo-poo that idea go look at pallets. Solid wood! Knots have to be solid and if you realy look you will find all sorts of interesting figure and character..
Now you get a chance to be artistic.. instead of a wood machinist..
Move that figure over here to center it and then you can match it to that bit of character over there..
Want beauty?
I got over a thousand bd.ft. of fiddleback maple for 10 cents a bd.ft.
Now you are working with 10 /12 inch wide boards rather than wrestling with 4x8 sheets.. I get boards as wide as 22 inches from my sawmill.
OK you need 36 inches for this project or that. Well once you start to use a shaper instead of a router it's very simple to fit boards together and glue them up.. If you want to wrestle heck you could glue enough together to make 4x8 sheets agisn and your cost would be a few cents worth of glue..
I had a Powermaic shaper and sold it because, for me, the brute routers under the tables are hard to beat.
coolbreeze,
Grab any router table you want and take a ten or 18 foot long board and try to do the edge..
Really isn't safe (IMHO) I've seen routers installed in table saws where you now have the mass to keep the table from tipping over, however too many I've seen are poorly installed or thought out.. You need to get under them to turn them on or off or they loosen easily or other issues..
Now I own several differant routers and they have their place. But given a choice between a router table and a shaper I honestly like the shaper.
Coolbreeze, this doesn't make you wrong and me right, I may use bigger wood than you do. I may have bigger projects than you tackle. Your mileage may vary, Objects in the mirror are closer than they appear, close cover before striking,....
Frenchy, I just did a few 12' pieces but they were not heavy. The sum total of my experience comes from what I've done(how about that, Coolbreeze a philosopher)
I am really not a professional and only recently been persuaded to do some jobs for $. Some of my work now will be in a very fine art studio/shop (display cases and check-out area. The checkout area is done in bowfront and are very attractive. I know I will get more requests. I have five jobs booked to do. I really do not want more that 5-6 jobs a year but will be selective.
When I had my shaper, I enjoyed it. I mostly used it for cutting raised panels and stile and rails. I now use M & T in making most of my doors and I can cut everything I do with my router. I have an old 3 1/2 Craftsman and a new 3 1/4 PC 7518. Those dudes can cut.
Thanks for your reply.
Frenchy, I know that elsewhere on this forum myself and others have explained to you that on our planet using real lumber in place of plywood for cabinets does not make sense economically or logistically. Around here (Mid Michigan) the prices of rough sawn lumber itself is more than a sanded sheet of ply. Not to mention the time and effort required to machine and assemble all the pieces. And don't forget the issues of wood movement and warpage...Red Oak $3.35 per board foot = $107.20 per 4x8 panel
Red Oak ply is $54.60White Oak $3.31 bd/ft = $105.92 per 4x8 panel
White Oak ply is $103.64Cherry $6.28 bd/ft = $200.96 per 4x8 panel
Cherry ply is $110.26
Mumda,
Like everything else you need to shop around. Wood especially.. I can pay all sorts of prices for wood around here.. If I wanted to, Tomorrow I could buy black walnut for example for over $9.00 a bd.ft down to $1.00 a bd.ft.
Red oak would be similarly priced, fromover $6.00 a bd.ft to under a dollar a bd. ft.
No I'm not cheating by using differant grades, I'm buying from closer to the source.
Yes I cut out steps like drying and everything I buy is rough sawn, but that isn't a burden if you plan in advance.
I also don't want to sound like you can go to a sawmill and buy a couple of boards sorting thru piles to find exactly what you want.. You need to develope relations with the sawyers before you get to do that sort of thing..
Right now the price I pay at my sawmill isn't the cheapest in the state, In fact I bet I'm paying a 20% premium. The reason I continue to pay that premium is the volume I need is going down dramatically while the level of custom sawing is massively increasing..
That saw mill remembers that I've bought a great deal of wood and is willing to take special steps to accomidate me.
For the record. I also am able to buy sheets of surplus wood from a local cabinet shop for less than 10% of the price you pay for them.. The cabinet shop is a supplier to one of the larger big box stores and the cherry/ oak/ maple/ whatever they have is very nice stuff.. I actually buy doors and whole cabinets for tiny fraction of what the stores sell them for.. Molding too is insanely cheap, a 10 foot piece of solid maple corner molding 4 1/2 inches wide costs $7.00 a 10 foot long piece of 1 inch solid cherry rope molding is $3.00
The gimmick there is they only sell on certain saturdays from 7 to about 9:00. You need to call friday after 6 PM to find out of they are open on Saturdays.
It's actually better than that periodically when they have too many doors or whatever they put them in a big pile on pallets outside and let anyone take whatever they want.. I've seen vans packed so full they couldn't close the rear doors and they hadn't paid a cent for them..
I brought a bunch home simply to show the wife various finish possiblities, in retrospect I wish I'd filled my pickup with a pallet or two of doors..
Currant prices as of last week at my sawmill is
Black walnut $1.10
Cherry $1.65
White oak $ .80
Red Oak $ .85
Basswood $ .40
Red Pine $ .30
HackBerry $ .30
Tamarack $ . 30
Various pallet woods $ .15
(the real bargin because that may be any of the above woods that they don't have a market for.. yes it is mill run but that includes a fair bit of FAS
Those prices are unheard of anywhere unless the purchase quantity is over 10,000 bd/ft. Are you in a different dimension than the rest of us?
Mumda,
There is a magazine that comes out every week and it's sent to sawmills, I don't have a copy here to give you the name but it's something like hardwood lumber report or some such thing..
It's a little pocket sized thing that has the average price paid sawmills for both dry and green wood in various grades broken down into geograpghic territories, and by wood species and grades..
Get ahold of that and read it.. You'll find that what I am saying is correct. The prices I quoted are about 20% high compared to wholesale prices paid..
Now if I'm joe nosepicker and wander into my local sawmill for a few boards they are going to sell me those boards for much higher prices than what I just said..
However if you are clever and combine your needs with other's needs to make it worth while for the sawyer he will get extremely competitive if he thinks it will result in a new market for his wood..
Right now there are buyers all over the country buying up wood from sawmills in truck load quanities, they are paying about 20% or less than the prices I quoted.
They take their shipments and haul them off to a dryer who dries them and then sells the results either wholesale or retail.. Then another broker buys the load and many other loads and consolidates them together. They can now go to either a lumberyard or cabinet shop. or be consolidated further and go to the bigger buyers like window makers or large high volume users..
Buyers have tremendous power because some woods cannot remain sawn for long before they start to degrade. Maple in the summer needs to be on stickers inside a week or less for example.. Sawmills seldom have the warehouse space needed to store wood for much over a week or two at most plus they operate on cash flow. money spent on buying wood, and the expense of hauling it to the mill plus the cost of operating makes great demands for cash flow.
The real bargins are woods that have not been picked up and start to degrade. That stack of silver wood for example may have a thousand bd.ft. of fiddleback maple but if the sawmill can't find a market for the fiddleback they are happy to get 10 cents a bd.ft. for it, because even pallet mills don't like wood that has turned silver..
Another source of cheap (insanely cheap) wood is the odd lots..
I got hackberry nearly free that way and am always ready to take the few odd boards of Boxelder or Aromatic cedar. The sawmill gets odd trees and without a market they really have no choice it's either shred the whole log or sell it for whatever they can get..
Finally another way to get wood cheap is to be creative. Mother nature doesn't make all trees an even size. so a few boards per log might be only 3/4 of an inch thick or maybe even less. My sawmill saves all cherry down to 1/4 inch all hard maple and black walnut for me.. I bring home about 800 feet of thins for $20.00
Some is too thin for me to use except as veneer and I don't do veneer so it goes in the firepit . the rest I stack in either 1/4, 1/2, or 3/4, (finished) inch thickness.
Edited 11/14/2006 12:01 pm ET by frenchy
Coolbreeze,
Festool is the way to go for cutting 4'x8' plywood, MDF, etc... Some people build fancy tables to lay the stock down—not me. I just lay the material over two sheets of 2'x8' foam (about 1 inch tall) on the floor. It couldn’t be any simpler.
I would recommend getting Festool’s vacuum with the saw. I have both a Festool and Fein vacuums and the Festool is certainly the better choice. I didn’t put much stock in that antistatic hose, but it really does work.
Have a good day,
Frank
Festool is the way to go for cutting 4'x8' plywood, MDF, etc... Some people build fancy tables to lay the stock down—not me. I just lay the material over two sheets of 2'x8' foam (about 1 inch tall) on the floor. It couldn’t be any simpler.
It couldn't be any simpler than cutting on the floor?
You must have a strong back.
It couldn't be any better than your tools?
You must be very smart......cutting on the floor???
David
It is actually easier on my back because I don't have to lift the wood off of the floor.
I also work on a wood floor--easier on the back and the tools.
If you say so...
Frank
Do you have any chairs, or cabinets in your shop, or do you work entirely off the floor?
I suspect you are a very traditional woodworker and that is cool with me. I can understand and appreciate that, but I’m not.
For example, most of my hand tools are Japanese (not just made, but by design-a thousand year old design at that); my handheld power tools are all German made; and all my free standing tools are all “American”. I put the “American” in quotes because although they were designed here, none of them are made here anymore. My Powermatic jointer may have been made here, but believe it or not, I can't find a "Made in USA or China" sticker on it. The only tool in my shop that I know was made in the <!----><!----><!---->US<!----><!----> is my 1956 Shopsmith. I have completely restored it, so most people who see it think I just got it.
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Anyway, I have a stool—rarely use it. Presently use lots of those Costco Metal shelves, but I’m in the process of making much nicer hanging cabinets. Finally, I work on the floor when it comes to cutting down 4 by 8 sheets of MDF, Plywood, and the like…
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More than you wanted to know… I’m sure…
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Have a good weekend,
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Frank
Thanks for reply. I have learned alot with this subject and know I get caught up in the pass, but do try to move ahead when I need to .
If you managed to convince your current wife to let you to travel with your first wife, forget woodworking and write a "How-to" book. You'll be a millionaire.
My first wife has been my present wife for 43 years. I am planning on keeping yer another 40 or so. That is the same as being a multi-millionaire.
Coolbreeze
Congrats on retirement. My cutting table for sheetgoods is my old kitchen table with a 4X8 piece of 3/4" mdf, with 3/4" polystyrene for padding. The poly allows me to 'drop' a 4X8 sheet of expensive A grade plywood for a cabinet job without worrying about scratching it. The 4' X 8' sheet of mdf gives me full support for the job. When the polystyrene wears out from tooooo many cuts, which takes about 6 months, I replace it for about 8 bucks. I never cut into the mdf, so it'll be there forever.
BTW, I build cabinets professionally.
Jeff
I'm nearing "retirement, heading toward my shop" as well, and one of the things I've noticed is that plywood and MDF is way heavier than it used to be! Or is that just me?
At any rate, lifting full sheets onto my tablesaw is something I only do when absolutely necessary these days. I made a panelsaw and bolted it to my shop wall, and use that to rough-process full sheets whenever I can. Then I can maneuver (and lift) the smaller pieces on the tablesaw much easier and more accurately.
To deal with those times when I must cut a full sheet, I made a temporary infeed table for my saw. It is hinged, and when not in use hangs on my shop wall within handy reach. When needed, I unhinge it, drop it onto the gap between my Biesmeyer fence and the front of the saw table, where a screwed-on piece of stock keeps it in place, and then slide the sheet stock onto the temporary infeed table from the rear of the saw. Setting the infeed table up takes less than 20 seconds, so it's not a major deal to use it.
I used a shop-built (and clamped) guide with a circular saw for years, and it worked just fine. But setting up a table to make the cut took too much time. I like the idea offered by another poster here about cutting on the floor on a sheet of foam. Your body weight would help keep the plywood sheet and a guide very stable. And maybe I'm comfortable working on the floor like that due to my years as a carpenter...
My first post here... Zolton
why not biuld or buy a pannel cutter it would take up less space.
I have seen kits advertized
The Festool option is a good one. I fractured my spine and had no choice but to look for options that allow me to avoid lifting heavy/awkward sheets. I also need to have the work at a level such that I don't have to bend too much. I built a couple of stools and a simple sacrificial framework to fit over them to support a full sheet. I made the lot from some western red cedar for lightness.
The Festool plunge action saw and guide system works remarkably well - it gives as good a cut as my Euro slider with scoring blade. Hook the saw up to a shop vac and there's no dust. It's in a different league altogether from my previous portable saw/ply offcut system.
If I have to make multiples I usually use the slider to make the final cuts simply because there's less chance of error (in marking out). But as far as the quality of the cut edges is concerned - there's no significant difference.
FWW have some designs in their archives if you need them.
Good luck with it.
Thanks for your reply. I am still considering all options. I like Mapleman's set-up. It will work as an assembly, glueup, and more. I am still thinking about feeding a big 3/4 sheet into the saw.
If I could find a deal like Mapleman, I might just spring for it and a Festool.
I hope all my friends decendants babies are all born naked!!!
You have received a lot of good advice, and I would like to add my 2 cents worth: Buy a Panel Saw.
The one I have is a model C-4 (see http://www.panelsaw.com), and is extremely accurate (1/32) and very easy to use. Be sure to buy the vacuum attachment, and the stop block. One setup, you simply set the stop block on the built in tape and you will get exactly the measurement you want... no trimming.
It will rip also, but not as accurately. If necessary, I flip the ripped edge vertical and trim.
Don't be put off by the apparent high price. After using it you will wonder how you ever got along without it. Easy on the back too!
Thanks for your post. I went to the website and it seems that they have a very good product. It appears that the c-4 is the entry level PS. I did not find a place for price. I could request a quote, but I am not ready to do that now.
I will keep the site in my favorites until I make my mind up on what.
Well I kinda cheated when I had the chance to purchase the panel system for a Dewalt Panel saw the saw was long gone but a B&D 7 1/4" CS & a thicker bed made up the difference. Total cost $100. It cuts right on perfectly accurate.
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