Shopping for a new table saw (slider?)
My workshop (and house) are nearing completion and I wanted to equip the workshop with a brand new table saw. I currently have a Delta contractor saw and my neighbor has been shaming me into replacing it for my new workshop.
I started looking at the new PM2000 and the Saw Stop. But if I wanted to add a sliding table, like the JessEm, the price starts going up quickly. So now I’m also looking at a basic European slider like the Hammer K3 Winner or the Laguna.
Can some of you pros and enthusiasts out there tell me what differences there will be if I go the Euro-slider route? Odd arbor sizing, table jig issues? Are they all that they claim to be (whatever that may be?)
The Hammer sales rep is telling me that the time to buy is now because of the AWFS show specials.
Replies
I recently bought a used Laguna TSS. It has a 5/8" arbor so I can run standard dado and 10" blades with it, to run the 12" blades requires either a spacer or a specially bored plate - not a problem either way. My saw has scoring/scribing (separate motor on TSS) which is a treat when cutting sheet goods and can also be used for dadoes.
Things that are nice about the TSS is that it is rugged and well put together; the saw has a Baldor motor which runs smoothly; Dust collection is good; The side extension table (standard) is steel, the heavy pipe legs screw right into it and it has built in jacking screws to level it with the main table; The mobility kit makes it easy to move but once it's in place and leveled that isn't a factor.
I've had a range of saws including a unisaw and some sliding table setups: an Exaktor and most recently a Jessem. They are nice but I wanted the heavier duty slider to crosscut long boards and full sheets of ply.
If I had had the extra cash I would have liked an 8' slider but that would be more than twice what I paid for mine with similar equipment.
What you give up on these things is: the crosscut fence is a barrier, harder to use the regular rip fence because of the stick-out of the support for the slider. Need to remove xcut fence on slider to rips.
The new TSS has a Euro fence which I think I would like and feet which would allow the use of a pallet jack and a better location for the controls.
I've heard that the Hammer is a good saw but I've never laid eyes on one so I can't comment.
I made the leap to a Felder slider in late 2004. The slider is most excellent and has significant safety enhancements over conventional table saws. I upgraded from a Unisaw and briefly considered and quickly rejected adding one of the aftermarket sliding tables. I am not familiar with the Hammer slider but do know that it doesn't have the X-roll sliding table that the Felder has. Some of the differences are:
Before you get a slider, make sure you fully understand what you want to do with it. Make sure you explain this to the sales guy so that you get the right length table particularly if you expect to use the sliding table to rip down the center of an 8 ft sheet of plywood the long way. An 8 foot sliding table will not do this, you need a longer one.
Don't let sales pressure get to you because you can get a good show price now. There will always be shows and you want to make sure you make the right choice the first time around. I suggest going to shows and looking at all the available machines. Make the choice that is right for you.
Steve
Steve,Thanks for the details and your experiences with the slider. I think I'm looking for a much smaller slider, the base Hammer K3 Winner, ~50 inch crosscut capacity. Any larger and I'm not sure if I have the room.I'd also like your impressions of the rip fence and ripping in general with the Euro machine. My Delta Contractor saw has a Biesemeyer which I like a lot. But the L shaped rip fences look interesting, kind of like the Delta Unifence, and seem like they could be safer having the ability to slide the fence back so it stops just after the center of the blade during rip operations. That said, do you also use the sliding table for ripping operations on euro machines? I also notice that many Euro machines don't have the ability to accept dado blades. On the Hammer and Felder that I'm looking at, adding dado capability is an extra $270 plus the cost of an expensive blade.
I have a Hammer B3 saw/shaper combo with a 50" slider. The build quality, design and operation is superb compared to the Unisaw it replaced. I was advised to get a longer slider but the short slider has not been a problem yet. The fence is very much like the Unifence, the Unifence was a bit easier to adjust. One thing that takes some time to accept is that you need to think left. All operations including ripping should be done on the left side of the blade. More accuracy and safety is achieved when working on the left of the blade.
Blades are not a problem and available from a many manufactures. The 30mm bore is standard in Europe for this size machine. Shaper cutters also have a 30mm bore but I can also use 1" and 1 1/4" cutters. I did get the dado option even though I my never use it. You need to see one in action. Ask you salesman if any customers live near you and go take a look at one.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
Jerry,It has recently occurred to me that my router is mounted in my table saw. If I get the Hammer K3 slider, I'll have to get a new separate router table (which I really wouldn't mind having). But since you mentioned that you have the saw shaper combo, I'd like to know how you like it. I've often believed that a shaper is a router table on steroids. The fact that there is a sliding table to go with it seems brilliant! How do you like the shaper, was it worth the extra cost? Is it a lot different to use than a router table? Things that I wonder are if it's convenient to use for things like a doing an 1/8 inch roundover or a small chamfer? Maybe I can find a way to stretch to get the saw shaper combo as well!
I have not used the Hammer B3 shaper yet. I only have 1 cutter that will fit the Hammer. All the rest of the shaper cutters I have are bored for a 3/4" spindle for use on the Delta heavy duty shaper I have.
I also have a Bench Dog cast iron table extension that I have mounted to the shaper instead of a table saw. I have a Milwaukee 5625 variable speed router mounted in a Bench Dog lift. This router table setup is a joy to use and my second favorite shop tool, the Hammer B3 is of course my favorite machine. I use the router table for small to medium jobs. I thing if you are a serious woodworker you need both a shaper and router table.
The Hammer shaper is one serious machine and should be a pleasure to use. The spindle tilts 45 degrees away from the operator which is good for a number of reasons. The shaper has 4 speeds and a spindle that will take 1", 1 1/4" and 30mm cutters. Also, you can use the sliding table for larger projects. If you have not used a shaper before be very careful and use all guards as a shaper can be a very dangerous machine.
I would consider it as it adds about $1500 to the Hammer K3. A Delta heavy duty shaper is more than $1500 and with the Hammer you get a tilting spindle with 4 speeds, sliding table and a massive larger spindle. If you buy the Hammer F3 stand alone shaper it is $4500.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
Jointerman,
To bad we didn't hook up before I went to the show in Las Vegas, cause I had purchased a Felder K500P sliding table saw to be be picked up there, but canceled my purchase of it, at the show in favor of a bigger unit from a competitor. It also had the steel rings in the table top for a shaper( or router) to be mounted in. It was just the size you are looking for too. Sad thing is I lost my $1400.00 deposit on it. They make excellent machines, but don't give then any money unless your absolutely sure you won't change your mind. Apparently they are one of the only Companies that just won't give your deposit back, even if you aren't happy with your purchase.
Danny
Morning Danny...
Glad to see you finally found what you were looking for as you have done much searching. And am very sorry you lost your entire $1400 deposit on the Felder. Whoa.....
Did they have a clause or were you informed that all deposit would be lost after they placed it on order? I can understand them keeping a % for their trouble if it was to be highly customized and already built as customizations may be a bit harder to re-sell to someone unless they wanted the exact customizations you did.
I had a $500 deposit on a MM-16 BS and when I canceled for what then was a health concern. I was fully refunded. But... the saw was not even in stock nor does it have customization as you know.
It's just hard to imagine them keeping all the deposit unless it was part of a contract?
Regards...
Sarge.. john thompson
My understanding is that Felder machines are all built to order, so if you order a machine the machine will be unique to you. Perhaps that's why they retain the deposit.
Scrit
That's true and I'm not opposed to them keeping some of the deposit but all of it seems a little harsh.
Yes Sarge, it was all in writing so I have little recourse. I can't feel too bad as I'm sure there were a whole lot of people that left Vegas having lost a lot more than $1400.00 this weekend. Could have bought a nice new Steel City band saw with that money though. I did check out all the band saws while at the show and I believe I'm with you on the 18" Steel City. It's still the best one out now as far as I could tell. I noticed that Rikon cut the extra dust collection at the bottom of their new band saw. Lot's of competition out there on these saws, so I wouldn't be surprised at all to see even more gadgets and upgrades in the near future on these.
The show wasn't that much fun for me as I spent most of the time dickin around with the table saw decision. I was there two days and still didn't get to see much. I did manage to meet and chat with Mark Spangnola, of the Wood Whisperer and his beautiful wife. Really nice down to earth people with a great sense of humor.
I'm not even going to tell you which brand of sliding table saw I have money down on now as I still may change my mind before I get it. I'll let you know for sure when I get it in my shop. I wished now that I had waited until I have viewed all the saws at the show before purchasing. The Felder is still a great saw, it's just that it didn't seem as nice, as when I saw it two years ago. Also I wasn't pleased with all the holes that they had drilled in the table saw surface. Apparently 3/4's of these are sold with a shaper included,so they just use the same chassy without the shaper included, leaving all the sixteen extra holes in the top for mounting the shaper motor and fence, which is kind of tacky and looks ugly. I also felt like it just wasn't big enough for my needs, and that if I had brought it home I would have been wanting more as soon as I got it in the shop and I would always be complaining about how ugly those wholes in the top look every time I used it. I tired to upgrade with them so I wouldn't lose my deposit money. But in the end it was better for me financially to eat the deposit and go with another brand, as it would have cost me almost double the price to upgrade with them. At best they were going to make me pay up to $350.00 for shipping of the machine, I didn't pick up, back to their warehouse. Along with that and their very high shipping charges on a new machine just put me over the top on staying with the Felder brand. They quoted me something like $690.00 on shipping charges to send me an upgraded model. So it just worked out better for me to go with another Co. and cut my looses with them. Just another battle scare in the war of life! Good to hear from you Sarge, and a big at ease to you sir.
Danny
Edited 7/23/2007 12:22 pm ET by brownman
Afternoon Danny..
Yep.. it does seem harsh, but so does $700 shipping. But.. I suppose the trucking companies charge more to ship a 1000 pd. Chevy than a 1000 lb. Mercedes.
Good luck and let us know what ends up there as I thought that was decided.. don't suppose, I suppose. :>)
Off to Year One for fun and games...
Regards...
Sarge.. john thompson
Danny,I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your deposit. Althouh you have helped to remind me to think this through before I make my decision. I'm starting to get really confused on which of these machines I want or can actually aford again. The Felder rep just got back from AWFS and is pushing me to order a machine with the special extended "show" pricing. I've only really seen the Mini Max machines, and they were very nice. Also, I think that I better go out to West Sacramento to take a look at the Felder and Hammers in person. People always ask what I want to do with the machine, really, I want to be able to grow into it and not regret having purchased the wrong machine. Danny, I think you made a wise decision on going with what you wanted and cutting your losses.
Jointerman,
I've been researching and looking and messing with this decision for almost two years now so I think I have a little experience in this area now. Two years ago I really thought that Felder had the best lower end sliding table saw out. I still think their sliding unit is the smoothest operating. After spending a few days checking out all the sliding saws at the show in Vegas this year I've come back with a totally different opinion. Out of all the European made sliding type saws priced between $5,000 and $10,000 I really liked the Mini-Max line up best over all. The inner and outer works of the saws seem well built ,beefy, but simple. In my opinion the price of their units vrs the quality appear to make it a better value than the rest. Some of the salesman from the competition will batter them with the fact that they use concrete in the bottom of their saw cabinet saws. I personally don't have a problem with this as these saws need the extra weight for stability and balance. This was part of the reason that I canceled the deal I had on my Felder K500P. When I brought the sliding unit all the way back to the front position and then leaned on it a little the back end of the saw rose up. I just didn't feel it was stable enough and I didn't want to have to bolt it to the floor. The trunnion set up on the Minimax is a little better and beefier than the trunnion system on the Felder 500 series. They( Felder) just this year reworked their trunnion set up to make it as good or better than any others on the market, but only on the 700 series and up and not on their Hammer or 500 series. I too don't have a lot of space in my shop so the half slider( one that only cross cuts up to 50" ) really is a better option for me, but the more I thought about how nice it would be to have the longer slider I convinced myself to go with the full 8' or 8 1/2' cross cut. I too don't want to come home with a saw and then wished I'd bought the bigger one. I too want one that I'll grow into. I am doing more work these days and am doing a kitchen and living room in August. It would be so much easier to do these on the slider verses my PM 66. You really do need to see these machines before you purchase and its always easier to see them side by side so you can go back and forth to compare. So why didn't you go to the show in Vegas? Don't be in too much of a rush in making your decision as you may regret it like I did. The more knowledge you have the easier your decision will be, so keep asking and looking and learning so you can make a wise decision. Good hunting my friend! Danny
Danny
Almost everyone I know who bough a hjalf size slider has eventually wanted to go to the full size machine. The bonus of a full size machine is that alost all the cuts are made to the left of the blade on the slider. This is not only more accurate but quicker as well
Scrit
(Altendorf lover, I must nbe, I'm on my second)
Scrit,
Thank you for the support. I'm just glad that I'm thinking this way now,cause if I had brought that half slider home, I'm certain I would have wanted to sell it almost right away and then I would have lost even more money than the $1400.00 deposit I've already lost. That's why I'm not crying to loudly about this loss. And yes, wouldn't we all love to own a Martin or an Altendorf! If I was really serious about making this a full time business, then I wouldn't hesitate to spring for the best. I two like you am in my 50's and am retired from a 30 year carrier as a UPS delivery driver,so I'm not so inclined to turn my woodworking passion, into a business, any more than to support my hobby.
So how is jolly old England these days? I was there in the Midlands for a couple of years back in the seventies. I would love to go back and visit some day. My wife will be on holiday in London this coming September. This will be her 2nd trip in 4 years. She gets together with all her sisters and Mum, for and all girls trip so I'm not inclined to want to go along. I think I'll make and exception next time.
So tell me Scrit, who else over there is a regular on this forum besides you and Lataxe? Thanks again for your support in my decision to upgrade now.
Danny
Danny,
Greetings and commiserations concerning the $1400. Think of it as keeping a poor European CEO in better champagne. :-) I think you made the right decision, though, as it is very frustrating to have bought what you didn't want.
I owe you an email and one will be done after we return from our hollies in Wales. Until then, happy playtime with the new toy.
Lataxe
PS When will you be getting a Marcou or three then? A man who can donate to that champagne fund must surely want to support an Excellent Engineer, especially when he sends such magical toys and not even a wait until Christmas.
Hello my fine British friend,
So good to hear from you! You've become so popular on this site that I feel a special honor in just receiving a word or two from you. And as far as obtaining a Marcou or three I might be waiten a wee bit of time before me shells out the quid for them. Any tools after the slider must be earned with paid jobs from the shop. I'm going to work real hard(Ha Ha) to get my shop more organized so I can actually send pictures in the next few months. Great to hear from you and have a awesome( brilliant) holiday.
Danny
Hi Danny
There's a few other Brits round here, most notably Sgain Dubh (Richard) who quite the American shores for the jopys of West Yorkshire a few years ago. Can't think of any other regular posters I know of, but then I'm an irregular here myself.
Oh, and the Alt is definitely a working machine. It's way too bif, heavy and expensive for a home shop.
Scrit
The fence system is quite similar to the Delta Unifence. I have the full combo so the same fence is used on the jointer and is really too tall when in the high position on the table saw. I have been tempted to purchase the standard tablesaw fence just for use on the saw side but haven't decided yet. My fence is very long since it needs to reach past the jointer cutterhead. I can pull it back for the operation you suggest but there is a large mass hanging over the front of the saw and it has a tendency to tip back. That said, my fence mechanism locks into what Felder calls an F channel with an eccentric cam. The Hammer you are considering rides on a tube and is designed for tablesaw use only so is probably shorter. Ask the Hammer on this to make sure. Another consideration is removal or swinging the fence system out of the way. This is important because when using the slider crosscut function when sizing because if your offcut is longer than the rip width, you don't want to be limited.
For the ripping question it depends on the size piece I am ripping. For long pieces or wide pieces I almost always use the slider as I can get a very accurate cut the entire length. It takes a little longer to setup but is a very safe operation. For shorter pieces, I typically use the rip fence.
With respect to the dado option, when dealing with Felder sometimes you just have to swallow hard and pay the price if you want certain options. I paid the price for the removable dado flange (which IMHO is way overpriced for what it is) and haven't even used it. I had a Freud SD608 dado set that I loved and couldn't use it on the new saw nor could I have it rebored to work. Some folks have had Forrest bore their dado set as an option to the Felder cutter. When I checked into this, it was actually more expensive than the Felder dado. The Felder dado cutter is really a shaper slot cutter that uses shims to adjust the thickness. Those who have it have raved about its performance.
If you want to query real owners of this equipment I suggest joining the following Yahoo group: http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/felder-woodworking/ I think the list moderator may have made the Hammer video. Hope this helps,
Steve
A few years ago I upgraded from a PM 63a contractor saw to a Unisaw and then a year or so ago a Sawstop. Safety, accuracy, and reliability are my primary concerns in a saw. I have looked at the Hammer anbd Felder sliders and talked to folks who have the Minimax type saws. Buying a Felder or even a Minimax is a different experience than buying an American saw because of the options and different configurations ... that said, they are attractive machines. If I had known more when I bought the Sawstop, then I might have been tempted by a Hammer, Felder, or Minimax. Those machines are used in a different way to rip using the sliding mechanism, but the way I understand it, if you switch to using a rip fence on the euro sliders, then you have all the issues of a traditional American table saw ... please correct me if I am wrong about this. So, for those types of rips, Sawstop works well. I would take a close look at the Eurosliders and Sawstop because of the improved safety options. The PM 2000 does have a riving knife and that is a useful safety upgrade, but Sawstop takes it one more step and the Eurosliders address the safety issues in different ways ... good luck
I'll expand your wish-list a little. I just got my MiniMax combo jointer/planer. I haven't used it enough for a full review but at this point I am well pleased.
But, on to your saw. I would suggest contacting all three big names and ask for a videotape of their units. They are fascinating to look at and point up some significant differences between Mfgs.
What I am suggesting is that, if you are considering a Euro slider, you might want to go whole hog and get the jointer/planer with a slot mortiser. (A 12" jointer is to die for.)
Frosty
Frosty,The MiniMax combo machine is on my list for consideration, but its well over $1000 more than the Hammer slider I'm looking at. I briefly saw one at a woodworking show, but at the time, I just thought it was way outta my league in terms of budget (still is, but I may be able to stretch the budget). I also watched their video on-line. It does seems really cool to have a jointer, planer, shaper, and slider with an optional slot mortiser. But I already have a Delta DJ-20 jointer and DeWalt planer, although not in the same league as a Tersa knife equiped 12-inch jointer/planer, they are fine machines.I'm also concerned that the addtional tools on the machine might get in the way. I guess I need to take a closer look at them.
I chose the MiniMax because of the FWW report of a more solid fence. It certainly is solid - and very easy to lift on and off. I find the time to switch between jointer to planer is not much more that the time it took me in the past to pull one machine away from the wall and 'park' the other in its place - about 3 minutes. But - you can't save planer settings.Another feature of the MiniMax I liked was the positioning of the chip ejection ports. Both are (when the planer is activated) within a few inches of each other. I bought a metal adaptor from Oneida which I leave on my flex hose. It is a snap to slip the hose off one port and press it on the other. No need to clamp.The slot mortiser (I have not used it yet) can be mounted on the side of the machine in less than 5 minutes - it slides down over two bolt heads to a 'seat' on the side of the machine. You then remove a cover and install the chuck and bit. I ordered this attachment before all the "positive posts" on the Festool Domino. I still think the slot mortiser is a better choice but I'm not as sure as I once was. I made a simple U-shaped 'stand' of 3 pieces of plywood which supports the mortiser attachment when not in use.An extra cost may be the 30 Amp, 220 Volt service which is required..As to cost - what can you sell your existing tools for? I always rationalize new tool purchase/replacements by giving the old tool to my son to upgrade his shop. It serves to ease my guilt.Frosty
Jointerman:
Steve's reply was very comprehensive. I have a Felder combo with 8' slider. My shop is 16' wide so the slider goes from one wall to the other! Also the outrigger table really increases the "swept area".
I would also agree with Steve. A few other points:
Ripping and crosscutting are generally done with the slider; however, ripping anything less than about 7" wide requires the use of the rip fence. The rip fence has two positions, high and low. In the high position it looks like a normal fence. In the low position the fence is about 3/8 inches high, which allows push sticks and your hand to ride further away from the blade. I may not be explaining that well but you will immediately see the benefits.
The long crosscut fence makes for very precise angles. The dust collection over the blade stops most airborne dust.
I think the major benefits are safety, precision and repeatability. The blade is covered at all times, the riving knife follows the blade at all angles and heights and if you use the slide for most cuts your hands never need to be less than 2' from the blade.
I know that dado blades are common in the US, but they are not typically used in Europe. If you could convince yourself to cut grooves and dados with a router or shaper, then a euro slider will make even more sense. If you cannot, you will be removing/replacing/storing the crown guard with it's hose and the riving knife (I think). The Felder permits a dado blade, but I do not have one.
Having got used to the slider, I would never want to have to use a typical US-style table saw.
Hastings
Jointerman
I'm reluctant to even suggest this because from the tone of your post it sounds like you want to keep up with the Jones here and I understand that you need to spend a minimum for proper bragging rights..
So with due apologees to it's modest cost but no apologee for it's performance or capability, May I suggest Grizzly?
I own a 12 inch and the slider option would bring the cost up to a mere $2130.00 (and you can select either left or right tilt)
You could have the more common 10 inch saw for $500 dollars less.
I admit it. Bragging rights is one reason for buying the saw! But, keeping up with the Jones isn't what it's about. It's more about making sure the Jones are always in the rearview mirror! Okay, really what I found myself doing was waxing my table and spraying Pam on the table to keep the crosscut sled or wood on the miter gauge moving freely. The other thing that I loved was my Biesemyer splitter, while its no riving knife, it made things much safer than having no splitter at all. So adding a sliding table and buying a saw with a riving knife (Sawstop or PM2000) is a viable option. But that still leaves the blade about 10 inches away from the sliding table which is more of a compromise. So thinking about saftey and accuracy, I'm really considering a Eurro slider.However, on Grizzly's website they do show a nice looking 12 inch slider! But its the same price as the Hammer K3 "on sale" (the sales rep at Felder/Hammer calls me about every two weeks to tell me about special pricing).
J,
In Britain and Europe there are many, many 10 inch tablesaws with integral sliding tables/crosscut fences, riving knives et al that cost a lot less than Felders and similar. However, it seems not too many of them have a US importer.
For example, I have a 3HP Scheppach TS (made in Germany) that has an 83mm depth of cut, 1100 width to the fence and a sliding table that will cut across a full 1400mm plywood sheet or take a 2000mm plank for crosscutting. This cost £1600 ($3200; or less if you do not have the 17.5% sales tax we have to pay).
There are also many 10" - 16" planer/thicknessers, as well as various spindle molders. There are also many combination machines that have all three functions. Felders are the top of the pile; but it is a large pile containing many lesser-priced machines of excellent quality.
Perhaps it is possible to import direct from Europe; but then the transport costs may be large and there may be issues concerning voltage and other US standards that the saw meant for use in Europe might not meet.
I often wonder why some of the German, Italian and British manufacturers of such saws (that cost between £600 - £2000 ($1200 - $4000, but that's inclusive of the 17.5% sales tax) do not have a go at the US market.
How about Rojek (Czech, I think)? I seem to recall seeing them advertised in the US. They are not the best quality but still very good; and relatively cheap here......?
Lataxe
Jointeman,
I just finished setting up my new Laguna TSS. So far I am very pleased. upgraded from a pm 66 cab saw. i got the new upgraded Tss, and they were excellent modifications to the saw. For the previous posters, this is not a brag. Jointerman asked a question, to which i have first hand knowlege, and i am replying to him, just as many of you have helped me along the way. Also, i know there are strong feelings about laguna vs other mfgs , and yes they have some shotcommings, but i have dealt with them it the past, and feel they provide a great product at a fair price for me. Now on to my thoughts Jointeman.
fine rip fence adjustment is very handy, instead of tapping the fence back and forth. two shut down buttons, which doesnt sound like much, but comes in very handy when both hands are holding stock and you can bump it with your knee. super fast and very accurate when doing cabinet work. i am in the process of buiding a base cabinet for myself, and i had my 3/4 mdf sheet stock cut in half with a skill saw, then put a 48x49 piece on the carriage and had 2 parts squared and cut in less than time than i ever have with perfect results. tha carriage is very smooth and stout. lock downs are very hardy. i could never attain the same degree of accuracy with my old pm 66 without waisting time using variuos methods. saw is built very solidly, with a steel right side table with nice strong legs. also got the mitre saw angle guage, and once i got it set, its very accurate and repeatble with positive stops. this saw has a 66" cross cut capacity if using crosscut fence in the rear position. so if you use 5x5 birch, it works nicely. scoring is awesome, period. no spliter on veneer ply. thats basically all i use it for. 5/8 arbor, so i can still use my selection of blades, and you can also use a dado with this saw, so you dont have to give that up, which is important to me. all and all very pleased. please let me know if you have any other questions. also, if you get fine woodworking, in the ad section, there a company called andreu machinery, <its close spelling> out of new york, new jersey, and they sell a slider for a very attractive price, you may want to give that a look also.
hope this helps,
joe p
Joe,
I am looking at adding the Laguna slider on to my Powermatic 66. The slider add-on they sell is the exact slider they put on their TSS. I have a few questions, if you don't mind:
Have you ever had to remove the crosscut fence? How easy is it to remove/install? How easy is it to get it back to it's square setting? I know there will be times when I have to remove the thing to rip whole sheets of plywood in half, so I was curious as to your opinion since you have first-hand experience.
Thanks,
Lee
mapleman,
i ordered mine with the angle mitre table option, and with that in mind, it has stops built in, so i always replace fence square to blade.
it is so easy to remove the crosscut fence, its stupid easy. i have a harder time to find a place to put the fence. all you do is lift it off. its held in place by a stout indexing pin, and then positve stops are a spring loaded pin to locate your angle. it can be relocated without messing up your setting because its all indexed from a pivot point that ride on the mitre table.
very nice system.
ps, i used the five cut method to set up the slider/fence, and i stopped adjusting after i had results of 1/128 over 18" of travel. pretty awesome for woodworking.
joe p
Hi Joe,
Thanks for the speedy reply. I have not seen the angle mitre table option you mentioned - I will have to see if I can find it on their site. I don't remember it being listed on the options section of the sliding table info page.
What exactly does the angle mitre table do that the regular slider does not? I assumed you could cut angles with the slider as it comes, but maybe not? Maybe it's fixed at 90 degrees?
Thanks,
Lee
mapleman,
http://www.lagunatools.com/tablesaws_accessories.htm
you can see it here. it allows a more accurate and repeatable angle, due to that it has positive stops built in. its less expensive if you buy it with the saw too.
and yes you can make angle cuts w/o this option, but with this table, it makes the pivot point and positive lock down work off the same reference<being the table.> no resetting when removing crosscut fence. also, i am not all that impressed with the mitre guage they supply. this option renders it a non issue.
happy to answer any questions
joe p
Morning...
It was mentioned that you had to switch to the standard rip fence if you were ripping under 7" wide. And quite often you are going to rip under 7" wide. With that established (there may be other brands that will handle under 7" but not mentioned by those that have the Euro sliders) I have a couple of questions that arouses my curiosity.
Someone mentioned you could not rip a 8' panel lengthwise. What is the longest you can rip with a Euro slider to take advantage of it's safety features and accuracy?
And say you were ripping 12' stock.. what method do you use on the Euro type slider and do you consider that method safer than a standard U. S. TS capability?
Thanks...
Sarge.. john thompson
Edited 7/17/2007 2:13 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge, Good question about not being able to use the slider for boards under 7". I'm not sure what could possibly prevent that. I'm sure that one of our slider users can reply. But as far as crosscut capacity, my cabinet maker (way above my skill level) has a Martin T74 Automatic. Its got a crosscut capacity of 11 feet! So you could easily rip a piece of plywood lengthwise. Of course I'm looking for a much more modest slider.
Morning Jointerman..
Hasting just posted the "why" of the limitations of the 7" rip capacity is in force. The gap between end of slider and blade creates a problem when used for ripping. So.. a long fence becomes necessary.
As several have mentioned, you should definitely consider what your needs truly are before you take the large $$ plunge. I have always been impressed with the Euro sliders and have looked at the machining carefully on many occasions even though the Felder is out of my price range. Very impressive in mass.. machining and actual functional movement of machined parts.
But... I have never seriously considered one because of foot-print (most of us have space limitations) and cost factor compared to returns in value. For panels.. after Hasting explanation of having to cut them down from the original 8' length, the slider appears to be the ultimate in safety without going to the power feeder. But.. you still have to cut them down as most of us do before being able to enjoy the benefit.
For ripping.. you have to use the long fence (as most of us with U.S. saws do) for under 7" and appears the length might be limited on the sliders also. The vast majority of what I drag home from my lumber supplier in S-1.. S-2 and rough is 6"-8" wide and 10'-12' lengths.
I do mostly solid stock and the occasional panel which I cut down with a Tru-grip and PC circular and then take to the TS. I do a vast amount of ripping in 6'-8'-10'-12' lengths, so the benefits of the slider over 7' would not be cost beneficial to me personally. I do not cross-cut on a TS period.
I love the sliders.. but it appears they have their limitations as any piece of machinery. I love the operational safety features also, but beyond a certain point you are back to ground zero with the limitation issues. I have spacious shop (actually two adjoining shops.. 2 car garage and 1/2 basement) but.... still the foot-print that a slider has to have in it's natural state.
So a slider doesn't fit my needs it appears in either limits or foot-print taken for what it can do. Am I left out in the cold with safety issues, width-length considerations and cost=results because of the above?
Not necessarily.. I can rip 1"-30" wide up to 14' lengths with both safety and accuracy ( I do have to open an outer door to pull that off). I can cross-cut up to 14" wide in 16' lengths with safety and accuracy. I can dado up to 16" widths with safety and accuracy. I can do all this taking no more than the foot-print of a large slider and probably less. I did it by purchasing re-conditioned.. new and junk. The cost of all retail would have been about $3 K, but my cost was under $2 K. I just found what I needed.. used the space and geography available in my shop.. some scraps material and made it all work for "me".
Again.. think about what your needs are before you pull the trigger. The extras (if not truly needed) could be spent on a new cyclone.. BS.. etc. as I did with the difference in what I invested to get where I felt I needed to be. The big sliders have their most respectable place.. but not in my limited space shop with my limited budget to fit my "not so limited needs"!
Regards...
Sarge.. john thompson
Sarge,Nice setup you have. I can hardly wait until I can start moving my powertools from my family room and my storage shed into my 1.5 car garage shop (no cars allowed!). I had never really intended to use the sliding table for ripping, I thought that was the purpose of the rip fence on the saw. I think that it has the capability is just a bonus. I'm looking at a much smaller footprint slider, like the basic Hammer K3 or Laguna TSS. I believe that these have a similar footprint to a Sawstop with a Jessem sliding table. My wishlist is basically two things:1) Riving knife
2) Sliding tableAdding a sliding table to a Sawstop puts me into the same price rage as a Hammer K3 which I believe I can get for less than $4K with blade! But I guess if I go with a PM2000, I can get in at a much lower price and buy that nice cyclone! I have no dust collection now other than my tools collecting dust during the construction.
Morning Jointerman...
Sounds as though you have made your mind up to go with the smaller Euro slider. I almost got a Rojek last fall, but after careful thought decided it wouldn't fit my needs as I do few panels and quite a large amount of long stock.
The foot-print on the models you mentioned won't take the amount of space as those large Felders and Altendorfs. They are massive with their out-riggers along with being machined to very close tolerances and that is reflected in their price.
Whatever you decide will be the right saw will be over-shadowed in a very short period by getting the larger space to work in. You will find that is one commodity that is priceless when compared to smaller details as "which saw". ha.. ha...
Good luck...
Sarge.. john thompson
Hello Sarge!My slider will rip a 7 foot sheet. Although I can fit an 8 foot sheet on the slider, with out-rigger support, in front of the blade, the travel only allows me to cut 7' of the sheet. Felder make an even longer slider that would do that and more, but of course it takes up a lot of space.To work round this, I cross-cut the ply first. A standard sheet fits easily on the slider side ways.The ripping limitation is because the cross-cut fence starts about 3 or 4 inches to the left of the blade. If you wanted to rip 1" off a 4" piece, there would be no support for the piece and the clamping pressure would likely fall on the gap between the slider and the table. Depending upon the height difference between the surfaces, you might have the work piece angled. I have my slider adjusted to one thousandth above the cast iron table.For face frames and such, I tend to rip them to within a sixteenth on the bandsaw and then get the exact width on the planer.Hope my explanation is clear.Regards,Hastings
Morning Hastings...
The explanation was very clear. I have been over these things but never related the end of slider to blade causing a gap issue. If I had a cabinet shop and the space, this is the ticket it seems for "most" of the operations preformed there along with anyone that uses a lot of panels.
Thanks for clearing up of the capabilities and limitations involved with the "big sliders" as it helps confirm my opinion of what I need to "get er done".
Regards...
Sarge.. john thompson
Morning Hastings...
See post 30 for some additional thanks for taking the time to clarify some issues about the sliders.
Regards...
Sarge.. john thompson
Sarge:That was kind of you. Only my wife gets uncritical reviews!Regards,Hastings
Afternoon Hastings...
You're quite welcome and well deserved, sir. Have a good afternoon as I rush off to work.
Regards...
Sarge.. john thompson
Sarge,
Switching to the rip fence if the width is less than 7" is not absolutely mandatory but you will need to build a jig to do it. The 7" width is typically a limit of how close the crosscut stops will get to the blade. I have built a jig and ripped with the slider on pieces as narrow as 3/4". The limit is really what you can clamp. I am aware of others who have built vacuum fences to attach to the slider and can rip pieces down to about 1/8".
The slider rip capacity depends on the length of the sliding table. A good rule of thumb would be to take the slider length and subtract a foot. I have a 2800mm (~9.5ft) and can easily rip down the long side of an 8' sheet of plywood. Other larger sliders that I have seen are 3200mm and 3400mm long. They can obviously rip much longer pieces but, the amount of space these consume goes exponential. If the slider won't rip the length you need, you can always use the rip fence and do it just like you would on an American style cabinet saw. For the Euro slider in this case, I don't see significant safety improvement other than the fact that the upper guard and splitter is actually usable on a Euro (PM2000 and Sawstop being notable exceptions).
Steve
Morning Steve...
Thanks for taking time to add more clarification of details as Hastings has already done of how these things go about their daily business. I have looked at them up close and marveled at well they are machined and how rugged they are once assembled. But.. not being in a true market for one, I have never examined the small details of daily operation.
I will have a closer look in the fall of 2008 when the big IWF swings back to Atlanta as Felder and the other big boys don't show for the local events as their market is more commercial over-all. But.. from what I have seen they get my kudo's for excellence in machining.
And I would like to thank both you and Hastings for being very up-front about your saws. Sometimes the tendency when you pay premium for something is to "taut" the good points and just "forget' to mention the small short-comings. Both of you have been very blunt in your over-view of both positive and negative attributes and that gets my respect. It also presents a better picture to educate those of us without to decide if it is best for "us" and "our" personal needs.
Highest Regards to you and Hastings...
Sarge.. john thompson
Thanks Sarge, that "brutally honest thing" gets me in trouble at work (LOL) but apparently not on this forum. I was at the AWFS last week and among other things looked at various sliders up close. I am considering getting away from the combo and some of its limitations. After looking at these, I wonder why people call jointers aircraft carriers? The sliders are really "super carriers". Oh well, tools and machinery are really gases and not solids since they expand to conform to the size of the container (shop) that holds them. Decisions, decisions???
Steve
Evening Steve..
Yep, the "big boy" range of sliders get more into the super-tanker category and the large jointers aircraft carriers. I have a nice, cozy shop of about 1600 sq. ft. total. I don't think I would even consider it even if I had a need without at least a 40' x 60' shop. They do present a rather large foot-print.
Good luck with your call on which one is right for you.
Regards...
Sarge.. john thompson
"I have a nice, cozy shop of about 1600 sq. ft. total. I don't think I would even consider it even if I had a need without at least a 40' x 60' shop. "
Woah baby, now that creates shop envy. I have a 1000 sq ft shop with a combo and am not overly cramped for space.
Steve
Morning Steve..
I was working from the 2 car garage with approximately 900 sq. ft., but thing kinds of got out of hand and I had to cut the base-plate off the door between it and the 1/2 under-ground basement and retreat back there to steal another 700 sq. feet for the moment. All the smaller machines are mobile and can be moved quickly to the front area where the big boys are and the cyclone.May need more in the future, but almost all the missing pieces of the puzzle are almost all in place now after 35 years.
Only need a floor mortiser and got out-bid two nights in a row on E-bay with two Bridgewoods Curt Wilke was clearing there. $5 short on one and $10 short on another as I think it was the same used machinery dealer that would come in at the last moment and raise the stake just above my max bid with about 5 seconds before close. He can just "kiss my southern *ss" as far as I am concerned as the chase obviously continues. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards...
Sarge.. john thompson
You may also want to get a copy of the latest Popular Woodworking magazine, which has an article by Kelley Mehler. He is a tablesaw guru that has written books on the subject of tablesaws. In the article he goes through the advantages of using a Euro-style tablesaw vs. the standard US saws such as the PM66 and Unisaw. He is shown using the Felder KF700 Professional, which is the saw/shaper combo. I want one of these in my shop.
A slider is next on my list of machines to upgrade. Have been using a Unisaw for the past 7 years. Great saw, but there have been too many times I needed a slider with the attached outrigger for long boards and sheet goods. Get the magazine, some catalogs and videos from the current players in the Euro-machine market, and make some calls.
Good luck and watch those fingers.
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